Just Raced Under The New Algorithms and Rules

[Arcflyer]

Raced on Alsace today. Guy in front got a penalty, then decided to slam on his brakes right in front of me. I had no where to go and got a 10sec penalty. Not impressed with the attitude of some drivers. However, it seems that the only way to scrub of a penalty is to literally stop dead in your tracks, otherwise the penalty just doesn't decrease.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Nothing changed im stil B-B

That's what I figured. No fault to you, but this is what is happening over and over and this is the problem. Lower ranked drivers are not being penalized until they move up, then they cause penalties with other drivers.

 

[_ApexPredator]

Thanks for the vid, with commentary too! I have to say, some penalties might have been harsh (as you said we can't see them) but you were in a dirty race!
Since you asked for me you raced quite clean but I must say I think you deserved that penalty for your overtake on lap 6 (vs German driver). You were almost a whole car length behind his nose and pushed him wide... I think to "claim" an apex you must be ahead by the end of the braking zone.
Just my opinion!

As per the penalty fest, I agree it's ridiculous but the race wasn't clean at all so...

Thanks man, appreciate any thoughts on the matter. You're probably right about the lap 6 penalty, quite an ambitious move with the benefit of hindsight.

 

[Satomiblood]

But what if B/B drivers like myself are climbing the DR/SR ranks because we're doing it cleanly? I mean, should I still be serving the penalty after a griefer sideswipes me and pushes me into a wall - or should it just fall on him? I get that the algorithm should be more leveled so that the penalties are doled evenly across all classes for bad behavior. Trust me, the update isn't perfect, but it's sorted out some problems that I've routinely come across before. It's a noticeable difference.

 

[Mr616]

Thanks man, appreciate any thoughts on the matter. You're probably right about the lap 6 penalty, quite an ambitious move with the benefit of hindsight.

And would you say you have learnt from that? Because there are some who seem to think this isn't teaching anybody anything about clean driving, but I think it's a step in the right direction to do it.

I've seen behaviour on track change for the better in my races. No last lap divebombs or moving me off line to "overtake" with 3inches of space. This was happening in nearly every race at high level. It stopped me playing for over a week because everybody was making contact to up their DR.

All this low rank talk is BS imo. High rank drivers should be an example. They should be super aware. Accidents will always happen, but I should not experience contact on nearly every overtake at every race.

I am DR:A SR:S and some drivers at that level are shocking.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

All I'm thinking is that there is such a polarisation of experience it can't all be down to driving/racing standards, or is it?

I'm totally just making stuff up here and speaking from a complete ignorant lack of test or experience, but is it possible that they've created different standards based upon a collision around the apex or the brake zone?

Even before this recent update I would get hit hard by other players, and I would never incur any SR penalty as long as I was holding a steady radius around the apex. People would literally cut off my apex and pit themselves off of my front end, flying into a wall and I would score a green SR at the next checkpoint.

After the update I got rear ended hard once in a brake zone and didn't draw an SR penalty either. A lot of the footage I'm seeing, people are attempting dubious overtakes and then barely rubbing, incurring a penalty. I don't know, just throwing out random scattered observations but on the surface the penalties seem harsher around the apex when people are bumping laterally into cars.

 

[kilesa4568]

Disagree.

Amazing how often that happens to me.

Penalties should be handled the same across the board. It makes no sense letting lower tiered players get away with contact and not get punished for it. It's like teaching them bad habits. If they learn what is acceptable from the start, then when they progress to a higher rank they won't be wondering why they are receiving penalties for something they have been getting away with up til now.

In an ideal world, I'd agree with you...

...but just the same as everyone else, they'll have to get used to those tiered penalties the higher up they go. They're not exempt from them but they first have to reach them.

Looking at how big those bottom groups are and how small they get further up, there's not much progression going on so why punish them for it if they're not skilled enough to progress? If they want clean races, earn them. If they don't, they've still got a good racing game to play.

The top 2 DR ranks also make up less than 1% of the player base and only 6% if you make it the top 3. Most of the people below them will likely stay there, or at best, move into the third highest rank. If they find the going tough in B, they'll be bumped back down again in short order so, in my opinion, the penalties mostly work to weed out who's who and place them where they should be.

So now everybody must relearn per PD's rules.

Honestly, I don't see why the drivers with the most skill or are at least competent want to make it tougher for the people they'll likely never meet. It sounds like sour grapes based on their own new found difficulties.

 

[Mr616]

I'm totally just making stuff up here and speaking from a complete ignorant lack of test or experience, but is it possible that they've created different standards based upon a collision around the apex or the brake zone?

Even before this recent update I would get hit hard by other players, and I would never incur any SR penalty as long as I was holding a steady radius around the apex. People would literally cut off my apex and pit themselves off of my front end, flying into a wall and I would score a green SR at the next checkpoint.

After the update I got rear ended hard once in a brake zone and didn't draw an SR penalty either. A lot of the footage I'm seeing, people are attempting dubious overtakes and then barely rubbing, incurring a penalty. I don't know, just throwing out random scattered observations but on the surface the penalties seem harsher around the apex when people are bumping laterally into cars.

It does seem like it's trying super hard to get everybody on the same page in terms of driving standards. No more poking the nose up the inside. No more following you into a corner and when at the apex, ease you off line and overtake. People have got used to this, think they can race "clean" and are now moaning because that style no longer works for them.

Only time will tell, but I've played 3 straight night in a row after not racing in sport mode for about a week, and have a much much improved experience.

 

[Voodoovaj]

And would you say you have learnt from that? Because there are some who seem to think this isn't teaching anybody anything about clean driving, but I think it's a step in the right direction to do it.

I've seen behaviour on track change for the better in my races. No last lap divebombs or moving me off line to "overtake" with 3inches of space. This was happening in nearly every race at high level. It stopped me playing for over a week because everybody was making contact to up their DR.

All this low rank talk is BS imo. High rank drivers should be an example. They should be super aware. Accidents will always happen, but I should not experience contact on nearly every overtake at every race.

I am DR:A SR:S and some drivers at that level are shocking.

I disagree that his is helping at all.

I have been a proponent of carrying penalties to the end. I always have. I STILL am. There should be NO driving off of penalties. Surely no additive penalty for not driving off, but an additive penalty for multiple penalties. A and S drivers were running off track and making contact as you say, taking the penalty, and driving it off. As a victim, that was better because if there was an unfair penalty, you could deal with it. Now, sacrificing that would be just fine if we still had the old contact system with maybe a tiny tweak to contact. And, MY ABSOLUTELY MOST HATED yellow flag penalty should have been removed.

Now, B drivers and down get freebies where A drivers do not and they will learn this at the cost of another driver's DR an, likely race. Since the A's and S's have learned we cannot make any contact, new A drivers will be in the mix without knowing this is the case. Both drivers get taken down.

How do you get back up? By winning and being aggressive again. It's a viscous cycle.

 

[George Jakob]

That's what I figured. No fault to you, but this is what is happening over and over and this is the problem. Lower ranked drivers are not being penalized until they move up, then they cause penalties with other drivers.

The strange thing tho is i raced i don't know 6 races before this but when i i took a penalty i could serve it as usual & it wasen't growing up at all but in that race i took the usual 2 second penalty & it was growing by 2 seconds every 2 seconds i was like what the hell?

 

[Mr616]

I disagree that his is helping at all.

I have been a proponent of carrying penalties to the end. I always have. I STILL am. There should be NO driving off of penalties. Surely no additive penalty for not driving off, but an additive penalty for multiple penalties. A and S drivers were running off track and making contact as you say, taking the penalty, and driving it off. As a victim, that was better because if there was an unfair penalty, you could deal with it. Now, sacrificing that would be just fine if we still had the old contact system with maybe a tiny tweak to contact. And, MY ABSOLUTELY MOST HATED yellow flag penalty should have been removed.

Now, B drivers and down get freebies where A drivers do not and they will learn this at the cost of another driver's DR an, likely race. Since the A's and S's have learned we cannot make any contact, new A drivers will be in the mix without knowing this is the case. Both drivers get taken down.

How do you get back up? By winning and being aggressive again. It's a viscous cycle.

Yellow flags need to stay just flags as a warning and nothing more. No penalties from them.

I know it seems like we've been at loggerheads over this, but I think over time, and some tweaks PD will hit a good middleground (which is what I meant by going to extremes first, then reigning it in).

I also think you are falling foul of bad driving around you, which this system should address and eventually those bad eggs will either learn how to race or drop from your bracket.

I'm baffled by the polar experiences from player to player, but I'm confident this will settle down. There are to many in high rank that shouldn't be there, and they've got there by the leniency of the old system.

I was sick and tired of a clean race for 8-10 laps, to get to last lap then battered into the barriers by the guy behind on the last lap for them to finish SR blue. THAT is wholly unacceptable to me, and this system completely nullifies the advantage that kind of racing gave.

Sorry if I've come over a bit pointed and argumentative. I do love GTS and want it to be the best it can be, and I don't players to feel like they want to leave, but at the same time this new system needs time to weed out the truley bad drivers at high rank.

 

[Voodoovaj]

You s

The strange thing tho is i raced i don't know 6 races before this but when i i took a penalty i could serve it as usual & it wasen't growing up at all but in that race i took the usual 2 second penalty & it was growing by 2 seconds every 2 seconds i was like what the hell?

You DR probably increased and the penalties changed.

I still think consistency is the answer. From E there should be zero tolerance just like at S. Then, players learn to avoid altercations.

 

[_ApexPredator]

And would you say you have learnt from that? Because there are some who seem to think this isn't teaching anybody anything about clean driving, but I think it's a step in the right direction to do it.

Yeah I agree, I think it'll just take a week or so for people to adjust and for any creases to be ironed out.

On the specific case in question though - there was barely any contact and he had more than a car's width to play with on the outside, and the move was 2-3 laps in the making.
I'm happy to hold my hands up if I was in the wrong, but I'm on this game to enjoy some good, clean, racing - I don't want rank S to just become the fastest guys race away and the rest enjoy a tippy-toe single-file procession.

If you grade acceptable racing contact from: Touring Cars > GT Racing > F1 - I'd like to land somewhere around GT Racing, it is a game after all.

 

[tofuhero]

Disagree. Penalties should be handled the same across the board. It makes no sense letting lower tiered players get away with contact and not get punished for it. It's like teaching them bad habits. If they learn what is acceptable from the start, then when they progress to a higher rank they won't be wondering why they are receiving penalties for something they have been getting away with up til now.

The problem with GTS is that before the update everybody got away with too much. So the less skilled players progressed through the ranks through dirty tactics. Now that they are ranked DR/A or DR/S they are still using these same tactics because that's what they have been getting away with all along. So now everybody must relearn per PD's rules. They are taking a step in the right direction by trying to purge these dirty drivers with the new penalty system. They just went too extreme in the changes.

I've said this before, but you can't teach lower-tiered drivers to drive cleanly by beating them with a bigger and bigger SR stick. Many of them are used to racing against the AI, or racing in garbage online races in other games, and don't know any different. Many don't know racecraft that allows them to drive cleanly, or racing etiquette that allows them to avoid incidents with others. None of this is being taught by the game, and that has to be a foundation instead of the game punishing people for things they're ignorant of. Hitting them with big penalties won't suddenly make them learn how to race cleanly, it will just turn them off of the game.

If you're teaching a dog to behave, you can't just swat them with a newspaper over and over. They first need to learn how they should behave and then need positive reinforcement for when they do. So in addition to educational Racing School missions that teach racecraft, PD should be giving small rewards at the time the player does something good, like a clean sector bonus, a clean pass bonus, a clean pit exit bonus, etc.

 

[vxr58]

I think it's great. My DR has shot up since. Finally getting the chance to race rather than 1) being shunted off the track, or 2) worrying about being shunted off the track.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I also think you are falling foul of bad driving around you, which this system should address and eventually those bad eggs will either learn how to race or drop from your bracket.

I'm baffled by the polar experiences from player to player, but I'm confident this will settle down. There are to many in high rank that shouldn't be there, and they've got there by the leniency of the old system.

I'll tell you exactly why I see more problems.

I am not a strong qualifier, but I am a strong racer. I can't pump out that one great lap, but I can pump out good laps like clockwork. I'm not terrible at qualifying, just that my laps are consistent. I also prefer cars that are more of a challenge to race with, so rather than using the M4 or Vantage, I will sometimes choose the Jag or, as is the case with the FIA races, Team Merc and the Gr4 SLS. I pretty much go for whatever I've used least recently and run from there without care for where I might finish.

I like working the traffic. I like pressuring people into mistakes. I like to feign passes to cause other drivers to take bad lines. This puts me in the thick of the fight, which I enjoy. This is also a riskier place to race, but the reward, both emotionally and scoring wise, is pretty good.

This system has me racing terrified of those other drivers.

Time will tell, but I can't see the benefit of an inconsistent penalty system. As drivers move up, they'll make moves that were once allowable and cause problems for themselves and others.

If you're teaching a dog to behave, you can't just swat them with a newspaper over and over. They first need to learn how they should behave and then need positive reinforcement for when they do. So in addition to educational Racing School missions that teach racecraft, PD should be giving small rewards at the time the player does something good, like a clean sector bonus, a clean pass bonus, a clean pit exit bonus, etc.

As a former game designer, I can tell you that what you describe is proper game design. It IS what should be implemented. Sadly, I don't believe PD has many game designers on staff if any.

 

[Chevy Heavy]

Honestly, I don't see why the drivers with the most skill or are at least competent want to make it tougher for the people they'll likely never meet. It sounds like sour grapes based on their own new found difficulties.

I'm not trying to make anything tougher for anyone, PD is doing a good job with that themselves unfortunately. All I'm saying is that the same rules should apply to everyone. IMO, DR rank should be used to match players in Sport mode. But the game prioritizes SR over DR when setting lineups. So what you wind up with is rooms full of drivers DR S through D. So yes it is likely that these players will meet.

In an ideal world, as you say, you would be matched up with people at the same skill level as you. I don't think it's fair that much slower drivers are matched with much faster drivers. I've been on both sides so I know what's it like. I guess until the player base in Sport mode gets larger, this is what we're stuck with. And no sour grapes here. As I stated in another post, I'm taking a break from Sports races until this all gets sorted out. I race for fun, not frustration.

 

[Krypton78]

Just did 3 races. Everybody watches really out not to ram each other. Penalty system is not too bad at all. Got some myself, but it wasnt big stuff. Oh, next race starts already...

 

[Jamie Bbbbb]

I think PD have made a bold, exciting and possibly naive move with this new system. It promotes cleaner driving, at the expense of more random frustrating incidents and more-disjointed races. However, it may be a wise move if they are confident that the small but mostly dedicated bunch of Sport Mode players will grow to appreciate this new direction. I would guess that 95% of people who will ever enthusiastically play Sport Mode are already doing so and will see the new system for its benefits. The potential problem is if new, inexperienced players are put off by the harshness of penalising the slightest of imprecisions.

The main theme of this system is...I don't know what word to use, but knowing that driving dirtily will impact both you and your victim(s), no matter whose fault it is. If we are able to accept decisions that go against us and learn from our mistakes then, in due course, there will be a minimal amount of erroneous driving. At high SRs at least.

 

[djidane57]

when people learn to move the hell out of the racing line when serving a penalty it'll be a huge move forward

 

[kilesa4568]

I'm not trying to make anything tougher for anyone, PD is doing a good job with that themselves unfortunately.

There are plenty of contrary opinions to that.

All I'm saying is that the same rules should apply to everyone. IMO, DR rank should be used to match players in Sport mode. But the game prioritizes SR over DR when setting lineups. So what you wind up with is rooms full of drivers DR S through D. So yes it is likely that these players will meet.

OK, fair point. Safety ratings do get lumped together, but if you're DRB, A or S in a room with a lower DR than yourself, you should be ahead of them on the grid through qualifying and you should also be able to drive away from them on track.

I'm not sure if SRS, whatever the DR, have the same strict penalties but if they do, you'll be sharing the same risk with them as everyone else.

I'm SRS so when I get a chance, I'll have to test it out. I'll get back to you when I do.

I think PD have made a bold, exciting and possibly naive move with this new system. It promotes cleaner driving, at the expense of more random frustrating incidents and more-disjointed races. However, it may be a wise move if they are confident that the small but mostly dedicated bunch of Sport Mode players will grow to appreciate this new direction. I would guess that 95% of people who will ever enthusiastically play Sport Mode are already doing so and will see the new system for its benefits. The potential problem is if new, inexperienced players are put off by the harshness of penalising the slightest of imprecisions.

I expect they'll relax the top flight's penalties a touch and if the new system keeps people on their toes for awareness, it should increase the numbers in those races. It brought me back so that's one extra player.

 

[Voodoovaj]

OK, fair point. Safety ratings do get lumped together, but if you're DRB, A or S in a room with a lower DR than yourself, you should be ahead of them on the grid through qualifying and you should also be able to drive away from them on track.

That's a narrow view of the field. I've seen all ranking qualify all over. I've seen E drivers set top 10 times. We all take a different path.

 

[kilesa4568]

E drivers setting top ten times aren't really E drivers now are they? Before you remind me, yes, lower ranked drivers can find a magic lap but they'll likely get found out in the race with a lack of consistency.

Honestly mate, I feel for you and even agree with you to a point as it's too tough at the top right now. I'm sure they'll relax things soon so you can get back into it, and if they don't, they're shooting themselves in the foot.

For everyone below you, the new penalties are a blessing and we outnumber you by around 20-1, or more than 100-1 if you're DRS. Something had to be done about the daftness on track though.

 

[John Crellin]

Honestly mate, I feel for you and even agree with you to a point as it's too tough at the top right now.

Isn't it supposed to be more difficult at the top? You know.. where only the top players are clean enough to survive there for any length of time.

 

[kilesa4568]

Yes, but judging by the penalties, not that tough. Tough yes, restrictively tough, no.

They're entitled to their fun with close races and PD need to keep those top players happy so they'll stick around for esports.

 

[Krypton78]

So, just did 5 or 6 races. I ruined 2 races myself, and lost many DR. The other races I finished 2-4th place, and ended up all with 600 DR gain.

New guys in the Room were racing like post-penalty, and they learned it the hard way.

Overtakings must planed well, just pushing your nose into the turn is too risky

Just I predictet it before, qualifying times are way more important now

 

[Nick Cannella]

I really wish they could make it so you can serve the penalty in the pits, way more convenient and safer.

If I’m not mistaken, I do believe that is how it plays out in Project Cars 2. I have the game, and from what recall I think that’s how it works. You have to make a pass through pit lane, but I haven’t touched it since GTS.

 

[Lion-Face]

@mthomas_95
It's difficult to judge in bumper cam (as you can't see both vehicles), but definitely on the second one you can see the M6 lurch forward as it is bumped.

Edit: I don't understand the argument to be honest.. he clearly hit the other car so what is the complaint about?

As it was my video, the first incident, during the race I noticed a light touch, didn't disturb either car, was minor. You can see the tap in that video when it happens. The 2nd touch was when I tapped the back of the M6, during the race I didn't think I hit him at all. I wondered in the moment, and then I got the penalty. It has taken a few re-runs of the replay to actually pick it up, and the more I watch the more obvious it becomes, but it really was a nothing of a hit. I can understand a SR drop, or maybe multiple taps like that over a race giving me a penalty. But I don't think either of those taps are worthy of the penalties given.

I'm not against stricter penalties, I like them. I just think they have gone too far in certain cases. If the overall driving standard has improved, this is good. I don't think a tap on the bumper like what I'm showing deserves penalty. If the tap results in a off/spin etc for the other car, sure, apply a penalty. If it hardly destabilises the car, move on.

Here is a video I caught the other day in a stream. This is a B rank driver, hits another car a lot harder than I have and no mention of a penalty.



My video again for comparison/convenience sake.

 

[Pelikan]

I can’t even...

What a drastic unexpected turn for me. When I initially read the update notes I was very excited for the changes in the DR and SR system.

After a rough first day online after the update I dismissed it as a fluke. Today I attempted to go in with a open mind and get some clean wins. After about 10 races today I have further decreased my SR to a B(49). No matter how hard I try to be clean and avoid horrible driving I was met with disaster after disaster.

I spent the past 80 days climbing slowly to DR S. I have been an SR S since Day 5 and in two days of racing online with the new system I’m a B.

Hoping hey iron some things out because the bad is definitely very bad with the new system.

 

[_ApexPredator]

My video again for comparison/convenience sake.

Yeah that's way too harsh, we don't want to be penalising racing.