Just Raced Under The New Algorithms and Rules

[GTWolverine]

I guess I'll just have to avoid any oval races that show up in the near future...even if you don't bump draft (which I like to do), it's impossible to not touch someone when everyone races so close for the entire race. I won 2 races at the Blue Moon Bay C-race a couple weeks ago by bump drafting the leader and opening a gap back to the rest of the pack. I wasn't even slamming into them - I lifted off the throttle right as I got to their bumper and gently nudged them to avoid getting a negative SR, and managed to only get one SR deduction in each of those 25-lap races. Now they've basically made real oval racing impossible. Also, I'm both terrified yet extremely curious about how today's Monza C-race is going to go...

 

[Outspacer]

I agree mate but for sure you cant believe that every single contact should give players a penalty.

A small -SR, sure, why not? The system has be able to measure at a fine level to separate out all the current SR 99 players. But I'm firmly against time penalties for very minor contact.

The penalty system should be the same no matter your rank or racecraft or "level".
Its supposed to be an e-sport title.It must have the same rules for everyone.I should not be able to get away with a "tap in the back" just because I am worse than others.

I'm a much better driver in real life but then I don't use a DS4 to control my real car. Things would likely be different if I did but I've got to assume (I hate doing that...) that the higher up the ranks you go, the more wheels you'll see used. Penalties have be proportionate to skill so you should still end up with fair system overall.

Considering that I'm not a fan of time penalties for small incidents, I'll just comment on the incident and SR aspects of this. The detection should be the same regardless of rank, and in all cases show up a small -SR tag. That lets people at all levels know what is expected. However, how that affects someones SR rating could vary by their current SR rank, or it could be balanced some other way like lower SR ranks getting more +SR for clean sectors/laps. Otherwise, lower SR ranks will just all end up at 1 SR.

(A simplistic view of SR would be as incidents per lap - if someone keeps having the same number of incidents per lap then they should keep the same SR rank, once the system has settled on it. So something has to vary based on rank in the scoring to do that).

 

[ststav01]

Can you post a video? Not saying I don't believe you, just that I'd love to see it to understand your point of view.

Sorry, I don't have any recordings but I get your point - if we have evidence in videos - it would be better. Anyway, I don't hate the new penalty system - it is just a bit too harsh IMO, maybe those slight bumps should not be penalized - that's it - other than that I think that people are driving a bit more carefully which is good

 

[xxxman1]

This is an example for awesome racing before the last update. NINE leader changes in the last two laps.



This is impossible now.

Race today and trade 1st place with a Japanese (both are DR A) just like your video. We feel fine with each other. Finally, no surprise, both of us need to slow down boz of penalty and the 3rd guy (DR C) get the win.🤬 Checked his lap time at least 1s per lap.

 

[Mr616]

The daily race B at Alsace is simply ridiculous at A/S S/S - out of 10 races, I got punted in 7 or 8 and you guessed it - I was penalized - some of the punts weren't that big but anyhow - I got a penalty causing me to lose 2-3 positions ... just ridiculous.

At those ranks the drivers should not be punting anybody. they should be aware of what is unfolding on track and posision themselves accordingly. If they can't, they are not a top rank driver imo. That's bad driving from them and they should not be in your bracket. Yes you took a penalty, but if you stay clean and those others don't learn, you will eventually be matched with like minded racers.

To many in top rank causing accidents.

*edit, and granted it's a little to harsh. (sounding like a broken record... I'll be quiet now lol)

 

[bad_brain_1]

.

 

[Seb Weasel]

Dude I remember you mentioning that, such a cool technique I have to say, but so dangerous... I can understand why it is now banned in NASCAR, do you know of any major racing championship still allowing it?
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE me some contact and even destruction once in a while (I would actually buy a new Destruction Derby game, remake anyone??), but I think it can't be compatible with FIA sanctioned GTS races. I see your point for ovals though. You gotta start the bump drafting league man, open lobby, I'd join! Haha.

I guess I'll just have to avoid any oval races that show up in the near future...even if you don't bump draft (which I like to do), it's impossible to not touch someone when everyone races so close for the entire race. I won 2 races at the Blue Moon Bay C-race a couple weeks ago by bump drafting the leader and opening a gap back to the rest of the pack. I wasn't even slamming into them - I lifted off the throttle right as I got to their bumper and gently nudged them to avoid getting a negative SR, and managed to only get one SR deduction in each of those 25-lap races. Now they've basically made real oval racing impossible. Also, I'm both terrified yet extremely curious about how today's Monza C-race is going to go...

 

[JulesDennis]

Wow... This thread is on fire! Looks like we are all passionate about this issue, which I take as a good sign.
People who are against, please, post some videos if you can, we really need to see more footage to understand your point of view. A picture is worth 1,000 words, a YouTube video probably 1,000,000 .

There are some video's in this topic mate.Check out post #214 from @hellZfirE .Got tapped from behind and "earned" a 3 sec penalty for pretty much nothing.

I'm going to stop trying to convince other drivers, I'm starting to feel like a GT zealot!!
I hope that we can all agree however that, this being a completely new kind of GT less than 5 months old, what PD needs most of all is more time.
In this day and age of loot boxes, micro transactions, paid DLC, I think it could far, far worse.

After all these years of development and "closed beta testing" and releasing the "final" product,PD has no time left in my book.
We are using a "finished" product,we are not testing a "beta" or a program during developmet.
DLC,micro transactions or whatever have nothing to do with this topic.

 

[Seb Weasel]

Hey. That sounds rough indeed, thanks for the detailed account... Can you post videos next time? Like you said it's a mixed bag reception wise at the moment, so it would bring water to the mill of discussion.

I understand why people in lower driver tiers working up like the new system.

The reason I know that is because I got shunted down into them, and have been working back up to my pre-patch level on smurf account.

Great.

But I strongly suspect there are fewer people having the experience of playing with A/S & S/S ranked accounts and post-patch getting absolutely hammered. And I am pretty sure naysayers are simply disregarding what people are saying. The penalties are applied differentially - and I suspect many of you are not really taking that into consideration.

I also would make the point that while I mention my own experience, I do so to to raise issues about what kind of racing experiences we want to have. For me, I'm looking for the ideal - super fast, exciting, clean racing. Of course, we are not going to get that all the time, sometimes we do and it is sublime, but taking the rough with the smooth what kinds of things could we expect or request as players.

But seriously, check this out. And sorry to belabor the issue.

My first race on smurf account, post-patch, which I think I detailed here, first turn of the race I was hit from behind (in P2) - and ended up with more than 10 seconds of penalty. In addition to SR & DR downs. That resulted in me finishing last, as I gained additional penalties in the race from being further hit from behind.

Next race, level now A/A, pole - no issues. Why? Because I was 5+ seconds ahead of P2 on the first lap having run like a whipped dog to escape the rampaging horde.

Then, made the mistake of thinking, ah well, bit of bad luck eh. The next, I think it was 5 maybe 6 races - all from pole, I was hit from behind at T1, T2 or T3 and my races were effectively over at that point. In addition, my ranking dropped to B/D. I am not exaggerating - every race the same thing.

Now, I remember making a post here about it, and few folks thought eh, maybe it is the first date with the new track combined with the new system (and possibly lack of awareness of it).

In addition, mates were starting to report the same kinds of experiences. Getting tapped from behind, wheel on grass, etc and races becoming contests to see who could manage the inevitable penalties.

Today, thought I would give it a chance, see how things go. I experienced what some of you have reported, some collisions and shunts of track in which no penalties or SR down were given. Ah, I thought, this is why people like the system. They think they no longer get penalties when other people hit them etc.

Then I got to A/A. And you can read my horror story in an earlier message.

Anyways, long post sorry. Since then, bored today, I just got my UK account to A/A. But the last couple of races for me were anything but fun. I'm thinking, what happens when I get to A/S and am in a mixed lobby and some muppet initiates a repeat of the same cycle?

Just checked my friends qualifying times on my main account (Friday night here) and ... I'm the only one posting any, with the exception of a couple who are basically always on the leaderboards. And most likely not racing. Most of those are S/S A/S.

I must hang with the dirty crew.

 

[Robben]

Like I said the penalty system is not the same for everyone.
DR B drivers were pointing out here that they dont get penalties every single time they have a contact.DR A and S players are posting video's with penalties for even a "feather" contact with others.

Where?

The patch notes clearly stats that additional penalty will be awarded depending on DR rating.
That means that higher DR/SR drivers get punished more easy and more harsh than lower rated drivers.
This is wrong,no matter how you look at it.Thats my point.

No, they don't. As I posted above, only additional penalties are based on DR. I.e if you (S) and I (D) both cut the same corner, we both get a 5 second penalty. However, you get more harshly penalised if you don't serve it quicker.

If I am a DR D driver I can get away more easy compared to you, ,a DR A driver.Why?Will I learn how to race propebly?Or your extra punishment will make me change "manners" as I move up the ladder myself?
Check the post @ststav01 just wrote.He got hit and got a penalty every single time.

No, you can't. You just have to serve your penalty.

 

[kilesa4568]

I strongly disagree to that.Penalties should be the same for everyone,no matter their skill/rank.

My point is they've (lower ranks) got to learn how to get the car around the track and pick up their race craft as they go. They're going to be making mistakes left, right and centre so punishing them with the same penalties as the top ranks will drive a lot of them away. If the top ranks have the same penalties as those lower down, we'll hear about faster drivers forcing their way through the field like they did before. Not ideal for building the game's player base.

Better to agree to disagree on this one?

I not sure how this has degenerated into top drivers questioning lower ranks and visa versa. As @Seb Weasel said above, post some videos and start proving it instead of leaving it up to conjecture.

 

[GTWolverine]

Dude I remember you mentioning that, such a cool technique I have to say, but so dangerous... I can understand why it is now banned in NASCAR, do you know of any major racing championship still allowing it?

They didn't ban bump-drafting entirely; you just can't stay locked onto someone's bumper, so you can only repeatedly tap them instead of pushing for the whole lap (the Blue Moon Bay race was a Gr. 3 race, so I had to back off his bumper anyway so we could slow down for turns 1 and 3). I don't know of too many series that outright ban it - it's just that there's no point in doing it on road courses where you're not on the straights long enough to make use of it, and if you've got a run on someone, you might as well pass them. Open-wheelers don't do it for obvious reasons.

 

[cleanLX]

They didn't ban bump-drafting entirely;

They changed rear spoiler, trunk lid etc. to make it so that bump drafting caused a car to get loose/unstable (aka time penalty...) which is why it is rarely seen now... guess in GTS we can still use it, but real life drivers are not so quick to put someones life in danger for a position.

 

[mthomas_95]

Where?

I like stricter penalties, but i think it may be too strict in its current form

 

[bad_brain_1]

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[puupke]

Well you're an high ranked driver or not. If you can't manage close racing without contact, you probarly shouldn't be there. Have had good close racing yesterday at brands hatch and interlagos. It still is the same in the sence that the one causes the penalty will have it more often, and yes you get a penalty but it will even out. it Should be hard to get to rating S. once you get there prove it you're worthy. For me it's logic to make the penalty's harder on higher ranks. And still not affraid to make the move, because you only make it when you're sure it goes well.i'm fairly certain the quality of races will become better by this.

 

[Robben]

@mthomas_95
It's difficult to judge in bumper cam (as you can't see both vehicles), but definitely on the second one you can see the M6 lurch forward as it is bumped.

Edit: I don't understand the argument to be honest.. he clearly hit the other car so what is the complaint about?

 

[Voodoovaj]

So, the guy in front of you spins, you get a 1 second penalty, but would rather your race end than have to pull over for 1 second? Ok...

I just raced in race C and ran nose to tail with a guy for 5 laps, got by him when he made a mistake. No contact, and we were probably never more than 10 meters from each other. This is how racing is supposed to work.

Once again I think a lot of people are overestimating how they drive.

See, when I race, that guy would have swerved into me or his mistake would have swerved him into me.

I spent the FIA manufacturer racing just praying no one around me would hit me. I came up on several driver altercations on my way through the pack and was lucky not to get tangled in their mess. Some racers are luckier than others.

Funny thing, one of the drivers made a wise crack about how the new penalties only affect the crappy or dirty drivers. I passed him while he was serving a penalty. I asked him about it after the race and he didn't even know what his penalty was for but assumed it was for being too close to another car, although he did not recall there being contact.

We all like close racing, but I don't like being terrified that someone else's slight touch is now going to ruin my race, where as before, I didn't care about other driver's sloppy driving.

One driver behind me started weaving and I let him by without a fight rather than run the risk that he might touch me.

This can't be the way going forward.

I'm an A/S driver and I enjoy close door to door racing as long as we are both respectful of each other. I don't want to be afraid of side by side racing or overtaking for fear of receiving a penalty. Racing scared is not fun. I really had no qualms with the system the way it was. Of course you're going to get the punters from time to time, but overall it wasn't that bad.

This is exactly how I feel right now, and I am racing scared.

All the supporters are assuming best case scenarios or only experiencing ideal conditions. Maybe it's different in different regions, but I have only had 2 ideal scenarios in 8 races.

In the FIA race I mentioned above, I also had the fellow in front of me start lagging while I was closing in. He ALMOST hit me because of lag when I was over a full second behind him. You can't give much more room than that. I had to drop back to 3 seconds from him to avoid the penalty. That's not racing.

 

[polizei]

Dude I remember you mentioning that, such a cool technique I have to say, but so dangerous... I can understand why it is now banned in NASCAR, do you know of any major racing championship still allowing it?
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE me some contact and even destruction once in a while (I would actually buy a new Destruction Derby game, remake anyone??), but I think it can't be compatible with FIA sanctioned GTS races. I see your point for ovals though. You gotta start the bump drafting league man, open lobby, I'd join! Haha.

You don't see it most racing because the cars are too fragile. It's doable in games because, well, they don't disentigrate like real CF would. Also you'd see it in NASCAR because 1 the cars can take it and 2, the tracks have 2-3 straights that you can do it on. Most road courses don't have a long enough straight for it to be a viable option.

 

[JulesDennis]

My point is they've (lower ranks) got to learn how to get the car around the track and pick up their race craft as they go. They're going to be making mistakes left, right and centre so punishing them with the same penalties as the top ranks will drive a lot of them away. If the top ranks have the same penalties as those lower down, we'll hear about faster drivers forcing their way through the field like they did before. Not ideal for building the game's player base.

Better to agree to disagree on this one?

I agree that we disagree.I dont think that "less" skilled players will get better if they get away with penalties that they should not.Everyone is using the same software.But not eveyone can become an S/S player.Having less skill should not give me "advantage" -penalty wise- over more skilled players just because PD fear for their active player base.
I never posted in this forum that "fast hotlappers" are clean or have the right to drive though others just because the have faster pace.
The penalty system should be the same for everyone and if that works as it should,the ranking (DR/SR) will also be better because of that.
People have to realize that not everyone can be an "alien".There is always going to be a faster/slower driver than them.They have to race against them,showing the same respect (no matter their pace).
But either way,if I am wrong and the system is better,its a good thing for everyone.

 

[mthomas_95]

@mthomas_95
It's difficult to judge in bumper cam (as you can't see both vehicles), but definitely on the second one you can see the M6 lurch forward as it is bumped.

Edit: I don't understand the argument to be honest.. he clearly hit the other car so what is the complaint about?

The contact is so minor in the first example you can't hear anything or see deviation in terms of speed or direction. No racing series in the world would even bother looking at that move to see a penalty yet the game punishes you at least 2 seconds? Can you not see how annoying that is pulling off a nice, clean move and getting a penalty because the guy behind makes the tiniest contact imaginable on exit?

 

[cleanLX]

My point is they've (lower ranks) got to learn how to get the car around the track and pick up their race craft as they go. They're going to be making mistakes left, right and centre so punishing them with the same penalties as the top ranks will drive a lot of them away. If the top ranks have the same penalties as those lower down, we'll hear about faster drivers forcing their way through the field like they did before. Not ideal for building the game's player base.

100%.
An S driver, you should aspire to be the leader of sportsmanship, an example to all us lowly guys... show us true race craft, car control, patience...
I'm Dr.B/Sr.S... if Dr.C/D/E have less critical penalties than B I'm fine with it, once they get to B they will either further adapt and refine their skill-set, or they will go back to C/D/E wherever. Carry on.

Further (and, zipping up my flame suit...) I've been pushed/bumped out of the way (never rammed/wrecked mind you, so, thanks.) more times than I think is reasonable by Dr.A and Dr.S drivers on their must get to the front campaign... show me your race-craft, not your ability to move me... I can move people out of the way too... choose not to. So, if penalties are harsher, then, maybe that's good... by the same token, it will apply to me racing C/D/E's...
So, now, put in a good qualifying and start near the front where you belong, rather than force your way through (bringing others with you) ruining the races of guys doing their best.

Having said that, I have raced with some extremely clean/considerate A and S drivers, and, when it's clear I'm holding them up, I've gotten out of the way... didn't make it easy for them, but, gave them the preferred line and held off just enough to let them through without letting a train run by.
I think a lot of us slower guys could use some training videos on how to let a spot go, without loosing several in the process.

 

[Robben]

The contact is so minor in the first example you can't hear anything or see deviation in terms of speed or direction. No racing series in the world would even bother looking at that move to see a penalty yet the game punishes you at least 2 seconds? Can you not see how annoying that is pulling off a nice, clean move and getting a penalty because the guy behind makes the tiniest contact imaginable on exit?

I can't judge the first as you can't see both cars.

I note you haven't replied about the second one?

 

[Voodoovaj]

I agree that we disagree.I dont think that "less" skilled players will get better if they get away with penalties that they should not.Everyone is using the same software.But not eveyone can become an S/S player.Having less skill should not give me "advantage" -penalty wise- over more skilled players just because PD fear for their active player base.
I never posted in this forum that "fast hotlappers" are clean or have the right to drive though others just because the have faster pace.
The penalty system should be the same for everyone and if that works as it should,the ranking (DR/SR) will also be better because of that.
People have to realize that not everyone can be an "alien".There is always going to be a faster/slower driver than them.They have to race against them,showing the same respect (no matter their pace).
But either way,if I am wrong and the system is better,its a good thing for everyone.

I agree 100%

And this isn't going to increase the player base, it will decrease it even more. The only reason I am sticking it out is because I am in the midst of a great FIA season. I won't bother next week.

I have noticed the open lobbies are less populated. I don't know why exactly, but I can surmise that it's because there is VERY little balance in the N classes. N-class racing with no BoP is grossly imbalanced and N-class racing with BoP is just as imbalanced, but the cars are slower.

Lots of those players play Sport Mode instead, it's obviously popular, but all I saw in the chats is how bad the penalties are. I can't see how that will increase participation. In fact, both FIA races I did were showing signs of struggling with matchmaking.

Without participation, there's less need for game support, ergo no updates.

You don't see it most racing because the cars are too fragile. It's doable in games because, well, they don't disentigrate like real CF would. Also you'd see it in NASCAR because 1 the cars can take it and 2, the tracks have 2-3 straights that you can do it on. Most road courses don't have a long enough straight for it to be a viable option.

Depends on the series. You don't see it in F1 because of the way the cars are. You see it in touring cars all the time, and we're racing those types of cars.





Don't get me wrong, I think contact is B.S. but giving the victim equal or more severe penalties is not the answer.

 

[mthomas_95]

I can't judge the first as you can't see both cars.

I note you haven't replied about the second one?

In the second one the guy in front gets a little speed advantage on exit whilst the camera car loses a bit due to the contact (which again is minor). At most that's worthy of an SR-, but no harm was done whatsoever.

 

[Robben]

In the second one the guy in front gets a little speed advantage on exit whilst the camera car loses a bit due to the contact (which again is minor). At most that's worthy of an SR-, but no harm was done whatsoever.

A bump is a bump... and it was completely avoidable. The guy on the camera should have either waited to accelerate or go one side, or the other.

 

[mthomas_95]

A bump is a bump... and it was completely avoidable. The guy on the camera should have either waited to accelerate or go one side, or the other.

He lost out anyway because in giving him a slight nudge he gave him a better exit than otherwise and couldn't do a move at the next corner which was possible without the contact. In that example the laws of physics did a better job at giving a proportional penalty. I'm sure the guy infront appreciated it before he got slapped a 2 second penalty for it as well

 

[JulesDennis]

Where?

Example: post #214 from @hellZfirE .First lap:minor tap from behind and yet he gets a 3 sec penalty for pretty much no reason at all.
He did not cut track or blocked anyone.Why did he get a penalty?

No, they don't. As I posted above, only additional penalties are based on DR. I.e if you (S) and I (D) both cut the same corner, we both get a 5 second penalty. However, you get more harshly penalised if you don't serve it quicker.

But they do.Check the above video.He is a S/S driver,that got a penalty in a situation that you (as an A/S) did not-you said it yourself that you did not get a penalty when others hit you from behind-.That means that not only additional penalties are based on DR but the higher DR/SR the more strick the system gets.

No, you can't. You just have to serve your penalty.

If the same situation means penalty for an S/S driver but not for an D/B driver then yes the lower ranked drivers have an "advantrage" mate and get away with penalties that higher ranks dont.Its that simple.So I'll ask again:what are they learning from that?

 

[Robben]

He lost out anyway because in giving him a slight nudge he gave him a better exit than otherwise and couldn't do a move at the next corner which was possible without the contact. In that example the laws of physics did a better job at giving a proportional penalty. I'm sure the guy infront appreciated it before he got slapped a 2 second penalty for it as well

The system can't judge who may benefit... it can judge contact and contact is avoidable.

If the same situation means penalty for an S/S driver but not for an D/B driver then yes the lower ranked drivers have an "advantrage" mate and get away with penalties that higher ranks dont.Its that simple.So I'll ask again:what are they learning from that?

You keep misquoting this (probably intentionally to further your argument). It only applies to ADDITIONAL penalties which are given if the original penalties are not served quickly.

 

[mthomas_95]

Lots of those players play Sport Mode instead, it's obviously popular, but all I saw in the chats is how bad the penalties are. I can't see how that will increase participation. In fact, both FIA races I did were showing signs of struggling with matchmaking.

Even more of an issue in NA/Asia I imagine with less than half the European playerbase already. Even yesterday there were 8 S drivers when normally there has been 12 at minimum, and more of those S's tended to be lower down as well. I qualify on average mid-lower half of top 10 and last night I got pole by almost half a second. Have to go back around 2 months for my last FIA pole.