Just some perspective for Kaz from a former fan of GT

[fatkid]

What do you call the livery editor? Or the improved photo mode? Or the removal of Standard cars?

Progress may be slow, but they're clearly listening. No need to get all melodramatic.

Well I would say slow and listening is a bit of an overstatement.

A livery editor? Only 6 years after GT5's release since most people were asking for it. And that is excluding the protracted development time of the game. And only 3 games and 2 different consoles later. Guess the PS3 wasn't able to handle such a technological feat?!

Photo mode being improved is a bit subjective. I prefer the fully 3d backgrounds that would allow for more radical shots. So far scapes seems to be for more panoramic group shots. At least will still have the photo mode in the race replays available - which I still think will be superior. And hardly the most important feature that people would by the game for, but being strangely push as some huge revelation.

Yes they got rid of the standard cars, like alot of people where asking for. But no one expected them to get rid of the 100's of premium cars that were supposedly future proof and "PS4 ready"! I am pretty sure no one asked for that. And if they were "PS4 ready" from years back, surely it wouldn't take much effort to put them in GT Sport?

PD listening? Maybe eventually? Myopic, aloof, prioritising wrongly, playing catchup and resting on old laurels come to my mind.

 

[ImaRobot]

Photo mode being improved is a bit subjective. I prefer the fully 3d backgrounds that would allow for more radical shots. So far scapes seems to be for more panoramic group shots. At least will still have the photo mode in the race replays available - which I still think will be superior. And hardly the most important feature that people would by the game for, but being strangely push as some huge revelation.

Actually to be honest, at this point it is one of the main things that is drawing me to the game right now. It's not really showing me anything different to whats really going on in the genre, but this surely does look great. Some bad info about it here and there, but for me, its a selling point. I'm not really seeing it as a plus for the game though, as like you said, this has got a hard push.

However, I agree with most of what you said.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Well I would say slow and listening is a bit of an overstatement.

A livery editor? Only 6 years after GT5's release since most people were asking for it. And that is excluding the protracted development time of the game. And only 3 games and 2 different consoles later. Guess the PS3 wasn't able to handle such a technological feat?!

Photo mode being improved is a bit subjective. I prefer the fully 3d backgrounds that would allow for more radical shots. So far scapes seems to be for more panoramic group shots. At least will still have the photo mode in the race replays available - which I still think will be superior. And hardly the most important feature that people would by the game for, but being strangely push as some huge revelation.

Yes they got rid of the standard cars, like alot of people where asking for. But no one expected them to get rid of the 100's of premium cars that were supposedly future proof and "PS4 ready"! I am pretty sure no one asked for that. And if they were "PS4 ready" from years back, surely it wouldn't take much effort to put them in GT Sport?

PD listening? Maybe eventually? Myopic, aloof, prioritising wrongly, playing catchup and resting on old laurels come to my mind.

A bit off topic but there's something I always wanted to ask you. Exactly how strong is the urge when you're on a smartie?

 

[fatkid]

Actually to be honest, at this point it is one of the main things that is drawing me to the game right now. It's not really showing me anything different to whats really going on in the genre, but this surely does look great. Some bad info about it here and there, but for me, its a selling point. I'm not really seeing it as a plus for the game though, as like you said, this has got a hard push.

However, I agree with most of what you said.

I agree. I took about 500 photos in GT5. l especially loved the Indy Nascar pit stop that was patched in. That really gave a sense of scale and interaction. I didn't take as many in GT6 but still about a 100 or so. I mean I would use the scapes. But the lack of cars and less inventive ways of taking shots gives off a more sterile vibe to me. Would I use scapes: most definitely! Does it give me a yearning to buy the game: definately not!

A bit off topic but there's something I always wanted to ask you. Exactly how strong is the urge when you're on a smartie?

What??? That honestly went over my head!

 

[ImaRobot]

I agree. I took about 500 photos in GT5. l especially loved the Indy Nascar pit stop that was patched in. That really gave a sense of scale and interaction. I didn't take as many in GT6 but still about a 100 or so. I mean I would use the scapes. But the lack of cars and less inventive ways of taking shots gives off a more sterile vibe to me. Would I use scapes: most definitely! Does it give me a yearning to buy the game: definately not!

I for one would prefer a photomode in pretty much any game So that will always be seen as a selling point to me, in all honesty. Is it odd considering the focus? Maybe, but it is part of their history, and it being updated is a good thing I think. However, I do agree with the lack of flexibility of the scapes, though. I was a bit bummed by what I heard, but it seems there is at least some movement.

In a similar situation, Forza has two "Homespaces" that work the same way as scapes, except you can't move anything at all, really. It's just there, just two of them lol. So this is something I'll likely enjoy.

 

[fatkid]

I for one would prefer a photomode in pretty much any game So that will always be seen as a selling point to me, in all honesty. Is it odd considering the focus? Maybe, but it is part of their history, and it being updated is a good thing I think. However, I do agree with the lack of flexibility of the scapes, though. I was a bit bummed by what I heard, but it seems there is at least some movement.

In a similar situation, Forza has two "Homespaces" that work the same way as scapes, except you can't move anything at all, really. It's just there, just two of them lol. So this is something I'll likely enjoy.

I admit to being a bit of a graphics junkie. Love taking photos of the backgrounds and the detailed weapons in Uncharted 4 and different armour sets in Dark Souls 3. And even though it wasn't my type of racing game: Driveclub, with it's amazing car models and weather. I am all for it. But this isn't a feature that makes a game a must buy. But is a great add-on that I like to make use of.

 

[NinjaDesignz]

Browns winning the Super Bowl? What about the Lions? One playoff win in nearly 60 years. If you want a no-chance-in-Hell example use them. You live in Michigan, you should know better! Sorry for the off topic rant, but I couldn't contain myself, I'm 66 years old and have been waiting since 1957.

The Lions do suck most of the time but I do think they have potential. The Browns have become joke of the NFL and probably won't be making the playoffs anytime soon. However, it doesn't really matter since I'm a Patriots fan

 

[Lain]

Well I would say slow and listening is a bit of an overstatement.

A livery editor? Only 6 years after GT5's release since most people were asking for it. And that is excluding the protracted development time of the game. And only 3 games and 2 different consoles later. Guess the PS3 wasn't able to handle such a technological feat?!

Photo mode being improved is a bit subjective. I prefer the fully 3d backgrounds that would allow for more radical shots. So far scapes seems to be for more panoramic group shots. At least will still have the photo mode in the race replays available - which I still think will be superior. And hardly the most important feature that people would by the game for, but being strangely push as some huge revelation.

Yes they got rid of the standard cars, like alot of people where asking for. But no one expected them to get rid of the 100's of premium cars that were supposedly future proof and "PS4 ready"! I am pretty sure no one asked for that. And if they were "PS4 ready" from years back, surely it wouldn't take much effort to put them in GT Sport?

PD listening? Maybe eventually? Myopic, aloof, prioritising wrongly, playing catchup and resting on old laurels come to my mind.

Livery editor? Why yes, in fact the PS3 wasn't able to handle such a technological feat.

Well, I mean it could... but with only 256 MB of VRAM, it would quite possibly be at the expense of day/night and weather, both of which were also features fans were clamoring for. (And yes, I know... GTS doesn't have these. Hopefully they return for GT7 proper.)

Sure, photo mode being improved is subjective in certain regards. But it's really no wonder why it's being pushed, the results are sometimes genuinely photorealistic and the output is certainly a cut (or two) above the competition's photo modes.

The premium models may have been PS4-ready but, from the sounds of it, perhaps not tessellation-ready. Besides, not every car they have modeled is necessarily a good fit for the e-sports oriented nature of GT Sport. Who knows... maybe when GT7 rolls around, we'll even see Standards return again.

Myopic? I'd argue that they're rather farsighted... sometimes problematically so.

Aloof? Definitely.

Prioritising wrongly? That's just, like, your opinion man.

Playing catchup? In some areas, sure... while leading in others.

Resting on old laurels? I don't think so.

 

[Tornado]

Livery editor? Why yes, in fact the PS3 wasn't able to handle such a technological feat.

Well, I mean it could... but with only 256 MB of VRAM, it would quite possibly be at the expense of day/night and weather, both of which were also features fans were clamoring for.

The PS3 certainly seemed capable of running cars with liveries with day/night and weather, since it did, so that seems like a stretch.

 

[Imari]

Livery editor? Why yes, in fact the PS3 wasn't able to handle such a technological feat.

Well, I mean it could... but with only 256 MB of VRAM, it would quite possibly be at the expense of day/night and weather, both of which were also features fans were clamoring for.

Uh, why are these features incompatible? We had cars with liveries. The livery creator is a separate thing that goes on outside of the race, so there's no overlap with time/weather.

 

[Lain]

The PS3 certainly seemed capable of running cars with liveries with day/night and weather, since it did, so that seems like a stretch.

Uh, why are these features incompatible? We had cars with liveries. The livery creator is a separate thing that goes on outside of the race, so there's no overlap with time/weather.

Certainly, some cars had liveries. And yes, liveries are created outside the race, but they're used in the race as textures on the vehicles.

Look at Forza 3/4 for instance. Xbox 360 had 512 MB of unified RAM, so they presumably had more headroom for textures... yet custom liveries were noticeably low-res once loaded in-race.

Anyway, it's just one hypothesis for why GT5/GT6 didn't have livery editors. A way to test might be to have a full field of cars with liveries run the Nurburgring with variable everything. That's the most RAM-taxing scenario I can imagine, and if its framerates were worse than with non-livery cars, then that'd answer that definitively one way or the other.


Another (perhaps more plausible) explanation could be that they were, y'know, busy working on other features. Damage, weather, time of day, tesselation, course makers, supposedly rebuilding the engine from the ground up, moon roving... They had a lot on their plate, adding new features they've never attempted before and/or that most developers would've considered too taxing for last gen consoles or even current-gen ones.

You can cry all you want to about how you personally wanted the livery editor to be a higher priority, but you certainly can't claim that they've been resting on their arses doing nothing.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Certainly, some cars had liveries. And yes, liveries are created outside the race, but they're used in the race as textures on the vehicles.

Look at Forza 3/4 for instance. Xbox 360 had 512 MB of unified RAM, so they presumably had more headroom for textures... yet custom liveries were noticeably low-res once loaded in-race.

Anyway, it's just one hypothesis for why GT5/GT6 didn't have livery editors. A way to test might be to have a full field of cars with liveries run the Nurburgring with variable everything. That's the most RAM-taxing scenario I can imagine, and if its framerates were worse than with non-livery cars, then that'd answer that definitively one way or the other.

Or, it's that Polyphony's insistence on carrying over dead assets from the PS2 days would've essentially necessitated two livery editors (or at least, one capable of dealing with the different methods employed).

And since other games on the PS3 could do some level of livery editors, pointing at the RAM doesn't really work.

Another (perhaps more plausible) explanation could be that they were, y'know, busy working on other features. Damage, weather, time of day, tesselation, course makers, supposedly rebuilding the engine from the ground up, moon roving... They had a lot on their plate, adding new features they've never attempted before and/or that most developers would've considered too taxing for last gen consoles or even current-gen ones.

On the evidence that GT6 provides, "most developers" would've been correct: it all was too taxing.

I still don't understand why over-reaching and intentionally designing a game outside of the limits of the system its intended for is a positive. Let's say a team at Nissan is tasked with building their next Golf competitor. They're given a budget for engine development and told to hit competitive power level. When the engineers comes back, they excitedly tell their bosses they've got an engine twice as powerful as the Golf's, with the same amount of fuel efficiency. Unfortunately, it required so much work that the car will now list for thousands more.

I mean, I get it: from an artistic perspective, I admire how Polyphony dreams big. But they're in the business of selling products.

 

[Lain]

Or, it's that Polyphony's insistence on carrying over dead assets from the PS2 days would've essentially necessitated two livery editors (or at least, one capable of dealing with the different methods employed).

And since other games on the PS3 could do some level of livery editors, pointing at the RAM doesn't really work.

Excellent point about the Standards.

Less excellent point about the other games. I'm aware other games have livery editors, the idea was that GT couldn't do it simultaneously with everything else GT had going on.

On the evidence that GT6 provides, "most developers" would've been correct: it all was too taxing.

I still don't understand why over-reaching and intentionally designing a game outside of the limits of the system its intended for is a positive. Let's say a team at Nissan is tasked with building their next Golf competitor. They're given a budget for engine development and told to hit competitive power level. When the engineers comes back, they excitedly tell their bosses they've got an engine twice as powerful as the Golf's, with the same amount of fuel efficiency. Unfortunately, it required so much work that the car will now list for thousands more.

I mean, I get it: from an artistic perspective, I adm
ire how Polyphony dreams big. But they're in the business of selling products.

I never said it was a good thing that they over-reached with the PS3-era iterations (I've easily put several times the hours into GT4 than I have GT5 and 6 combined as a result of this over-reaching)... it's just a plausible reason for why a less impressive and ambitious feature got left on the back burner all this time.

 

[ImaRobot]

Certainly, some cars had liveries. And yes, liveries are created outside the race, but they're used in the race as textures on the vehicles.

Look at Forza 3/4 for instance. Xbox 360 had 512 MB of unified RAM, so they presumably had more headroom for textures... yet custom liveries were noticeably low-res once loaded in-race

Yes they where, when you would get up close and personal. However, with that in mind, it would mean that the situation would be way less taxing in general. Seems like something that could have been fitted in relatively easy. That, or they could just learn to be more thoughtful of the systems specs, and not try to over-excel in certain areas, while leaving others high and dry.

 

[Imari]

Another (perhaps more plausible) explanation could be that they were, y'know, busy working on other features. Damage, weather, time of day, tesselation, course makers, supposedly rebuilding the engine from the ground up, moon roving... They had a lot on their plate, adding new features they've never attempted before and/or that most developers would've considered too taxing for last gen consoles or even current-gen ones.

Which is all fine and well. There are many features that don't make it into games because time is preferentially spent on other things.

That's pretty different from a claim that it was impossible on the hardware.

You can cry all you want to about how you personally wanted the livery editor to be a higher priority, but you certainly can't claim that they've been resting on their arses doing nothing.

Who is crying? Who is claiming that they've been resting on their arses doing nothing? Not me, as you might have noticed, and not @Tornado either.

Address your comments appropriately, please.

Less excellent point about the other games. I'm aware other games have livery editors, the idea was that GT couldn't do it simultaneously with everything else GT had going on.

And as has been pointed out, it didn't have to, any more than GT6 had to render created tracks on the fly. In both cases, the track or livery is created in a separate app or subsystem, and then used in race in a optimised and abbreviated form.

Just because a working Photoshop file can be hundreds of megabytes, I can still export it as a <1MB .png. Livery editors do the same, as you've observed by noting that custom liveries in other games tend to be lower res than while in the editor.

There's no hardware reason why GT5/6 couldn't have had a livery editor. The only reason that makes any sense is that Polyphony didn't want to put it in.

 

[Lain]

That's pretty different from a claim that it was impossible on the hardware.

Yes, obviously.

Address your comments appropriately, please.

The "you" wasn't addressed to any anybody. I was using it more in the sense that somebody might instead use the word "One"... I just felt "one" sounded weird with that sentence.

But if you want a name of somebody who has expressed thoughts of PD resting on their arses in this discussion, it'd be the person I initially replied to: @fatkid.

And as has been pointed out, it didn't have to, any more than GT6 had to render created tracks on the fly. In both cases, the track or livery is created in a separate app or subsystem, and then used in race in a optimised and abbreviated form.

Just because a working Photoshop file can be hundreds of megabytes, I can still export it as a <1MB .png. Livery editors do the same, as you've observed by noting that custom liveries in other games tend to be lower res than while in the editor.

There's no hardware reason why GT5/6 couldn't have had a livery editor. The only reason that makes any sense is that Polyphony didn't want to put it in.

Certainly my hypothesis that there was a RAM constraint seems flawed. I'll readily admit that it seems extremely improbable in retrospect, actually. But that doesn't change the fact that pointing at other non-GT games and saying that "it's got a livery editor, why can't GT do it too?" isn't a good argument against it (which is all that I was saying there, I wasn't defending my RAM hypothesis... I'd already written it off as unlikely by that point). It's similar to pointing at a very linear game and saying that if it can do (insert feature here) then an open world game should be able to do it too. Maybe they can, maybe they can't. Pointing at a game that is doing things differently doesn't prove it one way or another.

And it's not that Polyphony "didn't want to put it in", it's that they wanted to put other things in more than they wanted to put the livery editor in. And you can't include every feature you want... games would never go gold otherwise.

 

[Zibster]

going back to the main topic of this thread, I have almost the same story. GT3 was my very first (and probably top 3 most played) video games ever. when I found GT4 a few years after it was released used at GameStop, I was ecstatic. I begged my brother to get a PS3 just for GT5. while a perfectly fine game, I started to see the decline in quality at that point, despite being a naive 10 year old. when I got GT6 for Christmas, I was hoping for a game that would rekindle the spark I once felt. Just after finishing the novice events, I was already bored with the game. of course, I'm the person to play a game through, so I golded everything except for the extra side-events. despite this, I found little redeeming from the game. and now seeing that we're getting GTS, not even a "Core" release about 3 years into PS4 leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. I understand that developing a game is very challenging and demanding, but I've, (sadly), lost my faith in PD.

 

[ImaRobot]

isn't a good argument against it (which is all that I was saying there, I wasn't defending my RAM hypothesis... I'd already written it off as unlikely by that point). It's similar to pointing at a very linear game and saying that if it can do (insert feature here) then an open world game should be able to do it too. Maybe they can, maybe they can't. Pointing at a game that is doing things differently doesn't prove it one way or another.

You're correct in saying that just because another game has something, that doesn't mean you can expect it in every other game. However, when you start going into the details about why it actually doesn't have it, it doesn't seem to add up to anything other than that they just didn't put it in for one reason or another, not because of a lack of resources or under-powered hardware.

And it's not that Polyphony "didn't want to put it in", it's that they wanted to put other things in more than they wanted to put the livery editor in. And you can't include every feature you want... games would never go gold otherwise.

Or it's probably just that they didn't want to put it in. It's as good a guess as yours, at this point, really.

 

[Monkey Man]

Maybe we, the old GT farts, have to change too?

Nooo! Never!

It's my right as a faithful, paying customer to continue to hope for the glory of days gone by, but with an ever-increasing amount of toppings. I'll have salad and extra mayo and sauce with that too, thank you PD.

I'm not even 16 yet but I have played GT3, GT4, GT5, GT5 PSP and GT6. Honestly, GT3 and 4 have given me some unforgettable experiences, experiences which were hard to come by in GT5 and 6. Look, GT5 had a decent career mode but it could've been executed better. GT6 had a heavily cut down career mode and wasn't really entertaining in any way. The only reason why GT5 and 6 were so good was because of online racing. Without that, the games would've been really really boring.

For a young chap I'm impressed by your perspective, Mr. Lowndes, and I pretty much feel the same way.

There was something magical about GT3, and GT4 was just huge, if a little lacking in magic. I suspect it was the introduction of the 'Ring that put it right up there for me.

5 and 6? Well, I tried my best to make the most of them, and online definitely saved GT6 for me, but I still, perhaps naively, fervently hope (is this even possible?) that GT7 not only arrives, but blows us away. I'm an easy room in many regards; if I don't spot a single cardboard-cutout tree in GT7 that'd just about do it for me. Classic tracks from earlier iterations of the series, a bit of wind movement in the trees and on the track (litter blowing across the road or anything that helps mitigate the staleness and dead silence that currently best describes the atmosphere for me), would all be icing on what would undoubtedly be my favourite cake to date.

I'm a GT nut. It's the only "game" I've played since the old ATARI 2600 days, and I'll only leave the franchise if it in fact dies, which is something I tend to pray every day will not happen during these nervous, speculum-titty-tive times when we all find ourselves so much in the dark, armed with nothing but questions, theoretically-and-historically-based hope and loyalty...

Go on YouTube I don't remember were this was but it's on YouTube

Classic.