Kazunori Yamauchi Responds to Gran Turismo 7 Fan Outrage

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Respect is a two way street.
Sounds like the lack of respect towards Kaz is well deserved then. @Tornado already broke down that Kaz's apology isn't new.
Patience is a virtue.
Per Tornado's post, there comes a point where patience should no longer be afforded.
Review bombing may end up as a good thing.

In the end I don't think it will be GT that will take the hit in credibility. I think it's user ratings at places like Metacritic.
Is this straight off the desk of EA looking at the backlash of their games and doing nothing about it?
Solid evidenced arguments are the gold standard and all, but perhaps not everyone who can't quite be bothered to do a trawl like the one I just did shouldn't be taken at their word.
How is it the only evidence you provided (besides 1 post) ended up specifically highlighting that you presented a strawman....
 
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Polyphony better be working on a good update for us because the games reputation is totally been destroyed it is now sitting at an all time low of 1.5 On users score on Metacritic.

It’s so sad the game does so much right but it’s completely falling apart, And I would like to add that the silence we are getting from both parties which include Sony and polyphony digital is just total discussed once again our community is left in the dark
If it continues to drop like this, it will eventually reach 1.3, which will put GT7 alongside some FIFAs and other EA games. Top 25 worst game of all time. I hope it makes Sony/PD to make some positive changes.
 
It's not hard to imagine the payouts being reduced again, if Kaz logic, how to reduce the mechanical grinding, was to reduce the payouts on those events that people where using to grind, they may take another look at things again and see people using other tracks to grind and reduce the payout on those events.

Seasonal events where very generous on payouts in past games, but may fall inline with the low payouts where seeing with current game.

Kaz statement just not given us a clear enough picture with what direction the games economy will be like.
Is ps plus required to do seasonal events,if they arrive?Im not sure if they are classed as multiplayer like daily races.
 
Sounds like the lack of respect towards Kaz is well deserved then. @Tornado already broke down that Kaz's apology isn't new.

Per Tornado's post, there comes a point where patience should no longer be afforded.

Is this straight off the desk of EA looking at the backlash of their games and doing nothing about it?

How is it the only evidence you provided (besides 1 post) ended up specifically highlighting that you presented a strawman....
flogging-dead-horse.jpg


In the immortal words of Lethal Bizzle; leave it, yeah? You aren't going to add anything to the pile of nitpicking my evidence to find what you like that's going to lightning shock my mind into agreeing with you.

We have different opinions on Kaz's statement - and that's fine!
 
Honestly, you don't want to go down this route. Real life racing doesn't pay nearly as much as you'd think at all levels, with most of the money coming from endorsement and TV deals rather than straight race payout.

IIRC a 2hr40min IMSA race paid ~US$35,000 for a win, for example.
What about the salary that a team driver is paid in testing and practice? Or the near immeasurable wealth of some of the team owners to rebuild every car for every race? We are not just the driver in this scenario.
 
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In the immortal words of Lethal Bizzle; leave it, yeah? You aren't going to add anything to the pile of nitpicking my evidence to find what you like that's going to lightning shock my mind into agreeing with you.

We have different opinions on Kaz's statement - and that's fine!
I don't know who you think you present yourself as, but just saying, "I'm done arguing" after responding to someone's counter-points doesn't immediately grant you immunity from being responded to.

I have no interest in attempting to change your mind. The fact you think there's "no evidence" of the developers looking to influence MXT spending does a solid job on its own you're committed to your beliefs.
 
I don't know who you think you present yourself as
Hi, I go by MaxAttack, you can read it up there by the picture of Markku Alen. I present myself as a mostly anonymous racing game fan like pretty much everyone else here.
just saying, "I'm done arguing" after responding to someone's counter-points doesn't immediately grant you immunity from being responded to.
Well, having said I'm done arguing, and explained why, you might understand why it's annoying for someone to totally disregard that to drag you back into the same circular argument that's there for them to read over the last few pages if you wish.
The fact you think there's "no evidence" of the developers looking to influence MXT spending does a solid job on its own you're committed to your beliefs.
Well, no one has even attempted to bring me any, which I can't say for my own efforts, however deliberately half-cocked they may have been (the point of which has still eluded most everyone.)

No love for the Lethal B quote? I thought that was pretty nice, and has to be the only time anyone has mentioned him for a hot minute - oh well, can't make them all.

Yes you're free to respond to me of course but having said I'm done with the argument I hope you won't be too dissatisfied if I don't care to go over the same well beaten ground with you. I wouldn't want you to waste your time arguing with someone with no intent of being receptive - I know the feeling, oddly enough, and it's not very nice.
 
You've been done like 3 or 4 times now.
I'd love to be gone, mate, I'm being polite. I can fully leave when people stop quoting me. I don't like leaving people hanging when they've (supposedly) taken the time to read my ramblings.

McLaren
Man, it's too bad the one part of my post you removed clearly addressed that.

Good, then you won't be dissatisfied will you! I hate to disappoint is all.
 
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What about the salary that a team driver is paid in testing and practice? Or the near immeasurable wealth of some of the team owners to rebuild every car for every race? We are not just the driver in this scenario.
Most of the paid drivers in sports car racing are paid by the manufacture rather than the team. Most of the non-factory backed teams will have a factory driver they've paid for in the car, but the car is being paid for by the Am driver by their everyday business.
 
Honestly, you don't want to go down this route. Real life racing doesn't pay nearly as much as you'd think at all levels, with most of the money coming from endorsement and TV deals rather than straight race payout.

IIRC a 2hr40min IMSA race paid ~US$35,000 for a win, for example.
@mwoodski It's kinda hilarious how some people think prize money is how profit is generated in motorsport and have all-round ignorance towards the economics of motorsport... even after seeing real-world examples of how TV money isn't enough and how sponsors defaulting on payments can completely nose-dive teams in the case of Haas F1 (Rich Energy) and Williams (Rokit).

Then they'll tweet stupidness like "sPoNsOrS aRe RuInInG mOtOrSpOrT".

What about the salary that a team driver is paid in testing and practice? Or the near immeasurable wealth of some of the team owners to rebuild every car for every race? We are not just the driver in this scenario.
@Rudenut - Drivers are either salaried by the manufacturers or they have their owns sponsors that come onboard with them.

With some private teams, factory drivers come as part of the customer sport or works packages provided by the manufacturers, a good example of this is KCMG's driver line-up at Daytona 24hrs which had a mix of factory drivers plus a driver they'd directly hired themselves - his salary would come from KCMG.

Laurens Vanthoor - Porsche factory driver
Patrick Pilet - Porsche factory driver
Dennis Olsen - Porsche factory driver
Alexandra Imperatori - KCMG directly hired
 
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Most of the paid drivers in sports car racing are paid by the manufacture rather than the team. Most of the non-factory backed teams will have a factory driver they've paid for in the car, but the car is being paid for by the Am driver by their everyday business.
The point I am making, is that there is no representation for all of the other income that accounts for the cash available to teams. You were telling the guy that drivers don't really make that much per win. There are sponsorships, industry, inherent wealth, investments, many other forms of income that a car collector/race team owner would be able to have access to. None of that exists in GT so it is absolutely ridiculous to compare. Certainly ridiculous for the various cars to be rated at real world prices when real world resources for income do not exist. If prices are real world, then our income should reflect the real world income of someone who is likely to be in the market for a 20million dollar car. Much of that income, for that particular individual, would be passive.
 
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The point I am making, is that there is no representation for all of the other income that accounts for the cash available to teams. You were telling the guy that drivers don't really make that much per win. There are sponsorships, industry, inherent wealth, investments, many other forms of income that a car collector/race team owner would be able to have access to. None of that exists in GT so it is absolutely ridiculous to compare. Certainly ridiculous for the various cars to be rated at real world prices when real world resources for income do not exist. If prices are real world, then our income should reflect the real world income of someone who is likely to be in the market for a 20million dollar car. Much of that income, for that particular individual, would be passive.
You're overthinking this. It's not that deep.
 
Finally a voice of reason
Aside from one tasteless political cartoon I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested that the Ukrainian invasion, climate change, rampant racism, and the wealth gap need to be back-burnered until GT7s economy is worked out. But pointing out that 'there are worse things to worry about' is exactly the sort of intellectual and logical fallacy that has repeatedly allowed greed, incompetence, and laziness to keep screwing the general populace over and over and over. "Just let it go" isn't going to fly anymore. The entirety of human culture is starting to turn, and gradually as someone tries to brush off unacceptable behavior or predatory actions the only proper response is to call them on it. NOBODY is trying to equate these issues in seriousness or importance except the people who would rather see them forgotten. Saying "BUT THAT OVER THERE" isn't carte blanche to ignore an issue that needs to be addressed.

No intelligent person is equating Kaz to Putin or crying for punishment. ALL we are stating is that collectively we spent an enormous amount of money and were subjected to some collective decisions that were at best extremely ill-conceived and executed, and and worst motivated by predatory levels of greed. I'm not even going to try to dig down enough to find the core place to lay any blame.

Kaz/PD, the environment and situation you have allowed has been shown to be near-universally unacceptable to all the people who gave you their money. We're not going to simply drop it and let you off the hook for your decisions and actions. FIX IT. That's all
 
Platitudes. And at this point nothing new from him in response to criticism, to be frank; just like vaguely talking about "car culture" is his go-to reason for why the next GT is going to be so great. This is the exact same thing he made just-barely-beyond-canned-response interactions about when backlash against a specific thing in, say, GT5 would reach a fever pitch after that game launched in a miserable state. He references the specific things people don't like, he subtly shifts the blame away from PD for implementing it and onto the people who take issue with it as if they don't understand why it was done, misrepresents the basis for the criticism being levied, then offers a completely empty gesture that something may happen to assuage complaints about it even when obvious solutions are already present.






When PD added dozens of fake regional variations of cars to GT5 to pad out the car list, and people rightly took issue with the "1000 cars" in the game being made up of literally hundreds of cars where PD took multiple models and changed the text string in the car name and did nothing else (even in instances where doing so could have led to legitimately different models),

  1. Kaz specifically noted how people took issue with the practice.
  2. Then he framed the issue as just not understanding the reasoning behind them doing it rather than a deliberate decision PD took for a marketing checkbox:
  3. While also seemingly deliberately being obtuse about what the actual issue people had was:
  4. Before making an vague assertion that Kaz agrees with the problem and that there is a vague hanging implication that something will be done about it:
GT6 came out.


They did nothing to improve in this area, because they again needed the marketing checkbox to be higher than the marketing checkbox for the previous game so in fact made it even worse; even though all they needed to do to improve it was remove some cars that they made up and change some values on an internal spreadsheet for ones that they didn't correctly implement.





What about GT5's car sounds?
  1. Many here probably remember the infamous interview where he referenced people's complaints about that with GT5.
  2. He framed the issue people had with it as them not knowing enough to know they shouldn't be upset:
  3. Was deliberately obtuse about the reasoning people were taking issue with what PD had put together:
  4. Made vague notes about how it's something that the team will sort out:
In spite of the initial insistence that seemingly everything in GT6's early appearances that people didn't like were merely placeholders (to the extent that it became a meme), nothing was ever done about it for an entire console generation even though very little effort (so little effort that people could fix the problems themselves somewhat in that period of time where GT5 saves could be hacked) would have been needed to at least make it look like they cared at all.




For funsies, that last link has a double whammy because this:

Was in fact a bald-faced lie for that game, and functionally was a lie for the next decade of their output as well. But don't worry Sophie is definitely going to come to the game and fix everything.
:rolleyes:





But sidestepping that, let's compare those statements above to the statements in this post:
  1. Responding to a specific, loud criticism against the game:
  2. Reframing the issue as the people raising the criticism not actually understanding why PD are doing what they are doing rather than PD deliberately doing something that had a negative impact on the game quality
  3. Being deliberately obtuse about the actual basis that people are expressing the criticisms:
  4. Making meaningless statements that something may happen at some point (but please understand, they can't say what those might actually be) even though a quick solution is obvious and has already been widely discussed:
This one in particular is extra meaningless because it's basically the same thing that was trotted out for GT6 on two separate occasions when the initial reactions to its announcement was open confusion for why none of the supposed features of the game couldn't be added to GT5 instead (since GT6 was going to be a PS3 game for no reason beyond maximizing profit). The problems with GT7 are also a direct repeat of the problems with the game structure (ie. not having enough events to actually progress through the game) of GT5; which was a mistake he also acknowledged then but at least PD sort of put a band-aid on to fix (at lest before shutting the game's servers off almost immediately after GT6 launched).

Also note that he didn't actually say anything about the microtransactions. Not about their implementation into the game interface. Not about their prices being wildly higher than before. Not about how strongly they seem to correlate to the game's tortured structure and economy. Not that they were even implimented into the game at all when pay-to-win microtransactions in AAA games have been a constant, extremely controversial sticking point in the game industry (to the extent of what happened with Forza 7) for the past decade.
Also note that he didn't actually say anything about why they revised the event payments. Not about them being drastically reduced specifically as it pertains to the ones that were the fastest to gain money. Not about why they didn't simply raise the rest of the payments to try and "have users enjoy lots of cars." Not about why the solution that people had already found to get around microtransactions was deemed an unacceptable solution to the problem he acknowledged (but actively worked to make worse).







At this point it's legitimately kind of hard to tell if Yamauchi is early career Peter Molyneux (shoots his mouth off about things he really shouldn't talk about at the point in time he's doing so, over promises things to himself and underdelivers constantly but always promises to try harder next time, notes challenges faced and how they will be overcome next time) or later career Peter Molyneux (uses his fame to stifle criticism of him, overpromises about things that will be in his next title because he knows that is enough to get the hype going, says things he knows people will want to hear because he knows that his fans will use his statements to beat down people criticizing him, blames his failings on outside actors that he failed to account for.)







And people complained about them in the context of this series alone ten years ago as well. They complained about the mere threat of them so much in GT's immediate rival series that they anything resembling them was stripped from the game and public statements were made about them not ever returning.


An awful lot of people in fact specifically referenced the PSN hack and subsequent outage as why an always online single player game is a terrible idea (alongside all of the other infamous examples of the terrible idea causing problems) when it was confirmed (and later defended) for GT7. That PD ended up screwing the pooch themselves and taking their own game down only a couple weeks after launch is merely evidence of how terrible of an idea it was to do in the first place for those who don't remember Sony's past incompetence in this area. Or EA's. Or Blizzard's. Or Bethesda's.


Everyone: Kaz why you being so evasive and vague man?

Kaz: It's true that English cannot convey my Japanese meaning properly.

Everyone: [explodes]
 
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Aside from one tasteless political cartoon I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested that the Ukrainian invasion, climate change, rampant racism, and the wealth gap need to be back-burnered until GT7s economy is worked out. But pointing out that 'there are worse things to worry about' is exactly the sort of intellectual and logical fallacy that has repeatedly allowed greed, incompetence, and laziness to keep screwing the general populace over and over and over. "Just let it go" isn't going to fly anymore. The entirety of human culture is starting to turn, and gradually as someone tries to brush off unacceptable behavior or predatory actions the only proper response is to call them on it. NOBODY is trying to equate these issues in seriousness or importance except the people who would rather see them forgotten. Saying "BUT THAT OVER THERE" isn't carte blanche to ignore an issue that needs to be addressed.

No intelligent person is equating Kaz to Putin or crying for punishment. ALL we are stating is that collectively we spent an enormous amount of money and were subjected to some collective decisions that were at best extremely ill-conceived and executed, and and worst motivated by predatory levels of greed. I'm not even going to try to dig down enough to find the core place to lay any blame.

Kaz/PD, the environment and situation you have allowed has been shown to be near-universally unacceptable to all the people who gave you their money. We're not going to simply drop it and let you off the hook for your decisions and actions. FIX IT. That's all
It's called perspective "Video game bad" doesn't matter and for what it's worth I don't think there's much wrong with the economy in GT7, just means you've got to be careful with credits for the first couple of weeks. If this was the finished game, it'd be ****. But, we know there are things coming to increase earning potential. It'll be fine in the long run. That's it now, i'm done with this thread and everyone in it.
 
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It's called perspective "Video game bad" doesn't matter and for what it's worth I don't think there's much wrong with the economy in GT7, just means you've got to be careful with credits for the first couple of weeks. If this was the finished game, it'd be ****. But, we know there are things coming to increase earning potential. It'll be fine in the long run. That's it now, i'm done with this thread and everyone in it.
Riddle me this then; what is the point of playing or buying the game now if this is meant to be a long term thing? Why doesn't everyone on the fence about purchasing just wait for a "complete edition" if and when more things are added?
 
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Riddle me this then; what is the point of playing or buying the game now if this is meant to be a long term thing? Why doesn't everyone on the fence about purchasing just wait for a "complete edition" if and when more things are added?
Because I'm still having fun with it and enjoying the game as it is.
 
KJF
So am I after AFK auto grinding overnight. The game is great now.

Not sure why PD couldn't have just given me the coins from the start and saved us all the trouble.
I'd be doing the same but the script is only for PC. If someone finds or creates the auto grind script for Mac, I'd love to see it so I can start getting some credits.
 
Kaz: It's true that English cannot convey my Japanese meaning properly
Could any of the Japanese(-speaking) members of our community then help to explain the linguistic fine points of slipshod execution and extortion?
It's called perspective "Video game bad" doesn't matter and for what it's worth I don't think there's much wrong with the economy in GT7, just means you've got to be careful with credits for the first couple of weeks. If this was the finished game, it'd be ****. But, we know there are things coming to increase earning potential. It'll be fine in the long run. That's it now, i'm done with this thread and everyone in it.
Well, no, we dont know that. We have a history of them saying 'X is coming' which then is followed by endless waits, pushed out dates, updates that deliver only a miniscule fraction of what was promised/implied, lack most of the functionality that was advertised, or simply never materialize at all.

Remember loading up 6 for the first time and seeing that whole pretty VGT section with all the pretty logos from 'partners' getting free advertising? Some were awesome, some took forever to materialize and were phoned in and felt like afterthoughts by the interns, and some bailed entirely and with NO acknowledgement, NO apology, and NO compensation for something we PAID FOR because they TOLD US it was 'coming'. I had to find out through the efforts of the fine GTP staff and community. And I will NOT accept if 'coming' means it takes until 2024 to get resolved to the satisfaction of the majority of the community.

You can bail; you're competely entitled to and I don't fault you for it. But I won't. I've been shorted on far too many fronts for a very long time and I'm not letting it go any more. Vague promises are patently unacceptable. When you fail in the grown-up business world you have 4 duties which are non-negotiable:

1) You explain why the failure occurred
2) You detail what is being done to fix the issue
3) You provide a specific accountable time frame that the correction will be delivered
4) You you provide accountable plans to prevent the failure from happening again.

PD has been around long enough and is far too established to pass off grade-school excuses. I'm not going to rant or scream or rage or make petulant threats. I'm just not going to let them off the hook again. Kaz I am holding YOU, as head of the company, accountable regardless of where blame may lie, and until you provide a response acceptable to the majority of the community, I Will Not Let It Go.
 
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You can't just be a dick, say you are leaving the thread, and then get mad when people call you out on being a dick (also while apparently never leaving the thread.)

Also, bringing up whataboutisms for people complaining about videos games is mindnumpingly painful to witness. People could just point out that the fact that you are playing video games is a symbol of inequality of resources and an improper use of natural resources. Besides, people are more than capable of handling a few things in the 15 or so hours they are awake a day.
 
Forza 8 Motorsports needs to hurry up and steal GT7 thunder or lack there of. I would probably get it and possibly before GT7 if it realeases by end of 2022. I did get FH5 on PC, but photo mode is blah to GTS. So that was a few days of messing around before was bored - not my taste. Never played any FH games before.

Back on the absolute pitifull microtransanctions. If the GT7 content upon release was similar to GT2 or GT4. Then I would have no problems paying for add on download content. On the condition you get instant access to any add on cars paid for.
 
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