Legislated morality

[DGB454]

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[milefile]

Well the are called "escorts" and "massage therapists". They are legal. A technicality.

 

[DGB454]

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[Duke]

Mind you, prostitution should be legal - also taxed and controlled - in most of the 50 states.

 

[DGB454]

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[Duke]

Nobody wants you to leave the thread unless you do. Especially not now that you've had a minor epiphany.

That's the thing about trying to legislate morality - if the moral threshold is set too high, then it penalizes actions which are truly victimless and consentual for those involved. And the fact remains that when the threshold of LAW is set low, the individuals are still free to set their personal standards as high as they wish.

Allowing people to drink beer on Sundays and marry people of any gender and etc.etc. will not impact your morality as long as you don't come home from church and find them naked and drunk in your back yard... which is covered with a separate, just, and fair set of laws that have everything to do with your rights, and nothing to do with your morality.

I admit I am very suspicious of evangelism. It seems to me that if the idea is good, you should not have to work so hard to sell it by trying to convert the heathens. Then again, I'm a Libertarian, and we have a 24k-solid-gold idea that we can't give away to the general populace, either.

 

[Pako]

Who chooses which Morality Legislation is in good faith or not? Let me further elaborate: Who determines which laws that pertain to moral issues to be in conflict of separation of church and state? Is that not the issue here? So we can pick and choose which specific morality legislation fits your needs and toss the rest aside? That's fine I suppose, but makes you wonder why it was there in there in the first place doesn't it?

Certainly you don't want to get rid of ALL morality legislation as that would leave you with no accountability for your actions. There would be no consequences enforced by our laws to punish people that do not abide by "our" rules that we have, as a society, deemed to be fitting.

So it comes down to, some morality legislation is O.K. when it's in course with your belief system, but as soon as it strays away from your belief system, then it no longer has a place in our government because it forces a different belief system onto you without choice. That's a fair argument, then who's belief system do we use so that all the people involved can be happy with the outcome? How about the belief system of democracy? I need to give more credit to our forefathers than I do. It's because of topics like this we can look toward to the constitution as a guide of mans laws for mans rules, under mans terms.

I would hope that most people have a common theme of decency and goodness about them. I can and have seen this is many people, of many different backgrounds, with many different histories. It is through those honest eyes, and honest hearts that laws have been created to protect us under this great nation to give us the freedoms that we have today. It is also though darkened hearts, and sinful minds that a alternative action is put into motion for some of these laws that are supposed to be for freedom. Did you know that there is a group of advocates active in the US today that are in full support of using Pornography for use in Children's Health Education classes? This is something that they are pushing to start kids from grades K and up. As an example, this would be against my moral values to allow something like this to happen in my child's school. Nor can I see the benefits of that 'type' of education being used for kids and/or young adults. Should that, in the name of separation of church and state, be allowed in the minds of our youth? There is no reason for that kind of filth to be allowed into the hearts of our youth. So who decides morality legislation? I hope your not too sick of all of it? I would hope your willing to embrace some of it.....

In Montana, you can still be lynched for stealing someone's horse. Just wanted to point that out.

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by neon_duke
Mind you, prostitution should be legal - also taxed and controlled - in most of the 50 states.

...in your opinion.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by DGB454
As much as I hate to admit it you guys have gotten me thinking alot about what you have been saying. I stand by a lot of what I have been saying in that if you want to make a change then go out and do it. I also stand by what I believe and that is that God is truth and Christ is Salvation. But maybe it's not our place as Christians to try and keep everyone in line. I think about how Christ was to Mary Magdiline(sp) who was a prostitute. He never told her that she was wrong and that she had to change her ways. He simply held out his hand(so to speak) and said "come"
Follow me. She did. She became one of his most loyal followers.
It was because of his great love for everyone that he was able to do this and it was because of that love that Mary saw in him that she became a follower.

I also think about who it was that Jesus condemned while he was on earth and it was the Pharasees(sp) and the priest who tried to control the people by putting so many laws on them that salvation became a burden.

One example of this is when Jesus and his deciples were walking through a field of wheat and were very hungry, It was the Sabbath day and some of the Deciples reached down to pick some grain and eat it. The Pharasees saw this and condemned them because they said they were doing labor on the Sabbath.
Jesus basically put them down by telling them different instances of when holy men did labor on the Sabath and were not condemned and he followed with this " I desire mercy and not sacrfice, " "The Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath."
I think what he was saying is they condemned people for not following the laws yet the laws belong to Christ and not to man so it's up to him to judge and not up to us.
The best we can do is to be examples or a mirror of Christ and show people the way by our example. He also said to go out and spread the word. I know a lot of people think we are telling them how to live when we try and tell them about Christ but we are doing what he commanded us to do. Some of us may not be terribly tactful about it and it may not always come out the way it should but for the most part I think our hearts are in the right place. We are trying to show people that there is something that is offered free with no strings that can give them life everlasting. The rest is up to Christ. (plant the seed and he makes it grow)

I have always believed that action speaks louder than words and the way to lead is by example.

Anyway I have gone on way too long. Sorry about that.
I will try and leave the rest of this discussion to everyone else if I can. I've said that before and always end up jumping back in.




Later.

The Christianity you just described benefits individuals and society. It is good.

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Evangelism can be annoying. Me and my wife's closest friends are thoroughly Christian. They ignore Halloween, don't do Santa at Christmas, banned Harry Potter, etc., which are all things that affect their kids and not them. I don't see how they benefit from it. The thing I can't get over is that aside from these idiosyncratic rules they've taken up, there is no difference between them and us, morally, that is, behaviorally.

Their last thing was to leave a book at our house called Refuting Evolution. It made me wonder because a glance at my book shelf ought to be enough to demonstrate that such an act is tantamount to starting an argument. And I know they've glanced. They mentioned they had a case of the books. And the real kicker was the way they said "we don't want to push our beliefs off on you" as they gave us the book. They're still our good friends, but things like that annoy me. I would never leave a copy of The Origin of the Species or Beyond Good and Evil at their house, and claim to not be pushing my beliefs on them.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by Pako
Who chooses which Morality Legislation is in good faith or not? Let me further elaborate: Who determines which laws that pertain to moral issues to be in conflict of separation of church and state? Is that not the issue here? So we can pick and choose which specific morality legislation fits your needs and toss the rest aside? That's fine I suppose, but makes you wonder why it was there in there in the first place doesn't it?

Laws that apply to everybody like laws protecting property, laws against murder and rape and laws that protect children only happen to coincide with Christian morality. This coincidence doesn't give Christians the right to impose the rest of their faith-specific morals on everybody. Non-christian societies have the same laws.

So it's not a matter of choosing one morality over another. It's a matter of protecting your right to be Christian, while protecting my right to not be, at the same time.

 

[DGB454]

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[milefile]

Originally posted by DGB454
The only comment I have on that is the part about their kids. They are their kids and they should raise them as they feel is best for the kids.

I agree with you. But I wonder how these kids will feel in school when they get made fun of on Halloween when they say "my parents won't let me" and miss out on all the fun of Santa and have to tell other kids "my mom says there's no such thing as Santa". It seems to do nothing but isolate them. Every kid I've ever known or heard of who was raised like that ended up rejecting it when they grew up. I just don't see the point in it. But you're right. They're their kids. I just hope they never ask my opinion of it. And I also hope their kids and my kids don't have to have some traumatic six-year-old debate over the existence of Santa someday.

 

[Duke]

I'll agree with that, so long as they are not teaching their kids to hate others who believe differently.

Pako, what you're describing is not "legislated morality". That's what I was trying to get at in my post about naked drunk people in your back yard.

Laws against violence, theft, reckless endangerment, trespassing, etc. have nothing to do with morality. They have to do with protecting the rights of individuals from unwanted actions by others. Therefore they are completely justified, under a "natural law" principle that is derived entirely from the basic rights of man. Criminals who violate those rights of other people are fully accountable for their actions and liable for punishment under the law.

Legislated morality comes into play when the law attempts to regulate what goes on between consenting adult parties. In other words, if my wife and I want to have an orgy and we invite our friends over, it should be nobody's business but ours, so long as we're quiet and out of public view. Behaviours that are unacceptable when it is not consenting become acceptable when all parties agree. Violence against someone's will is prohibited, but if my wife and I want to take cricket bats and spank the hell out of each other, why should the law interfere?

Not that we would do either of those things, but you get my point. In neither case are our rights being violated, so the law has no jurisdiction over those actions.

 

[DGB454]

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[Red Eye Racer]

Originally posted by milefile
I agree with you. But I wonder how these kids will feel in school when they get made fun of on Halloween when they say "my parents won't let me" and miss out on all the fun of Santa and have to tell other kids "my mom says there's no such thing as Santa". It seems to do nothing but isolate them. Every kid I've ever known or heard of who was raised like that ended up rejecting it when they grew up. I just don't see the point in it. But you're right. They're their kids. I just hope they never ask my opinion of it. And I also hope their kids and my kids don't have to have some traumatic six-year-old debate over the existence of Santa someday.

I've played this scenereo in my head a million times and have no definitive answer.

Are you saying that explaining to your child the difference between fantasy and reality is a bad thing? Basically,.. I dont want to tell my kid that Santa isn't real?

........ I always wished I would've been told flat out about things like this,.... I think that's why I resent Christianity,.. cause for 3/4 of my life people spoke as if it was fact and not fantasy. Just a thought.

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by DGB454
One more thing to add on the kids thing. Those parents are choosing not to lie to their kids as far as Christmas goes. Keep in mind that Christmas is a holiday about Christ and not a fat man giving presents.

Hopefully we all realise that it was originally a holiday about observing the shortest day of the year as such, and was transformed into a Christian-only holiday.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by DGB454
One more thing to add on the kids thing. Those parents are choosing not to lie to their kids as far as Christmas goes. Keep in mind that Christmas is a holiday about Christ and not a fat man giving presents. I don't think that teaching your kids not to lie will have a negative effect on them. The Halloween thing I don't think is a big deal. My son is 11 and he never showed too much interest in going trick or treating. He likes to scare people that come to the door though.

To follow up on your friends leaving a book at your house. I don't agree with the method they used. They should have just offered it to you. I have a friend who is a trucker and a Sunday school teacher. Occasionaly he is forced to drive a load cross country and do some of the driving on Sunday. On those Sundays when he has to drive he get's on his CB and let's everyone know that is in range of his CB that he will be having a Church service at a certian rest area at a certain time and that all are welcome. He usually has a pretty decent turnout. The guys where he works got wind of what he did. Playboys started showing up in his cab every now and then. He just threw them away and drove off. Finally a friend of his from work approached him and asked him how he liked the reading material he was giving him. My friend told him he was wasting his money and time. The guy who was doing this said that he had no idea what he was missing by being Christian. My friend said to him that you have no idea what you are missing by not.

Anyway, either approach was wrong whether it is from a Christian or a non Christian.

Lies. Hm. I believe there are different kinds of lies. Some lies are beneficial. And peopl are smart enough to know the difference. We lie when somebody asks "how's it going?" and we say "fine" when it's really not. We lie when our boss asks "how does that sound?" and we say "fine" but think he's an idiot. Do we consider this dishonest? Immoral? All pretending is a lie. All imagination is lies. Fiction is all lies. Art is lies. Fantasy is lies. In certain situations we want and expect to be lied to.

Santa did not teach me to lie. It's a game, a fantasy for kids. It's fun. It's all for kids to have fun. I know Christmas is about Christ and not Santa, but in many ways that's a mere technicality. Interact in the world from October through December and tell me what Christmas is about. The religious aspect must be emphasized by the family. I don't think it's necessary, or even good, to do this at the expense of the fun part.

I remember looking out the window at bed time on Christmas Eve, scanning the sly for Rudolph's nose. My parents would pick a reddish star and I was convinced Santa was flying around out there. I remember the Christmas I thought Santa left his hat in my house, and how he always ate the cookies we left him, and gave the carrots to the reindeer. It was exciting and fun and stimulated my imagination. Now that I'm a grown up I enjoy seeing kids have that experience, knowing when they are grown they will have the same fond, tender memories.

The mindset that sees Santa as teaching your kids it's okay to lie demonstrates an inability to make distinctions and see shades of gray. It seems weak-minded. The people who do this also seem to feel superior for it. Which is funny to me, in a sad, divisive way.

 

[Duke]

Hopefully we all realise that it was originally a holiday about observing the shortest day of the year as such, and was transformed into a Christian-only holiday.

I sure do. In fact that's what I celebrate at that time of year. However, I missed making my semi-annual Solstice announcement on Saturday, the longest day of the year.

So happy belated Midsummer's Eve to all you pagans out there.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by M5Power


Hopefully we all realise that it was originally a holiday about observing the shortest day of the year as such, and was transformed into a Christian-only holiday. [/B]

This is a good point that I was afraid would make my post way too long. American Christmas is a nexus holiday. And much of it is based on the Germanic Winter Solstice. The tree and the ornements, which originally symbolized fruit on a green tree in the dead of winter, are pagan symbols. Giving gifts represented abundance in a time of need and darkness.

I have seriously considered stating flatly to family and friends that I don't celebrate Christmas, but rather, the Winter Solstice, which is the case, but who would care?

 

[Red Eye Racer]

Since we're on this topic, real quick,...

Now that I have my own house,.. I didnt plan on having an X-mas tree and all that crap,...

BUT, the ol' lady,.. (even though she doesnt believe that Jesus is her lord and savior),.. loves the "celebration, gift giving, have a christmas tree" thing.

Do you think this will be a problem down the road if we have kids? What will the kid think when we explain the idea of Christianity to it, and why we dont celebrate the birth of jesus,.. yet, we have an x-mas tree and gift giving and the whole 9 yards? Is't it contradictory and will result in a confused child?

 

[Duke]

It hasn't been in our case; the girls are just fine with it. Between us and school and their friends they've learned that there are a lot of different celebrations at that time of year, from the Solstice to Hanukka to Christmas to Kwanzaa to Isaac Newton's birthday (Dec. 25). We've explained the history of why so many cultures have adapted the celebration to their own use. They still like the idea of Santa Claus even though they figured out who he is about the same age we all do. It hasn't been an issue.

I do point out the four key points in the year - Vernal Equinox, Summer Solstice, Autumnal Equinox, and Winter Solstice - when they occur, and explain what each one marks. But we also have a Christmas tree and open presents on December 25th as well.

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by Red Eye Racer


Do you think this will be a problem down the road if we have kids? What will the kid think when we explain the idea of Christianity to it, and why we dont celebrate the birth of jesus,.. yet, we have an x-mas tree and gift giving and the whole 9 yards? Is't it contradictory and will result in a confused child?

Nah - my parents celebrated Christmas with me and my two brothers for as long as we lived in their house without corrupting me and turning me Christian.

 

[Red Eye Racer]

Originally posted by M5Power
Nah - my parents celebrated Christmas with me and my two brothers for as long as we lived in their house without corrupting me and turning me Christian.

But your parent's celebrating because they believe is different than them celebrating without belief?

How am I gonna explain to my kid that we (it's mother and I) dont believe,... even though we go through the 'celebration ritual'?

My GF doesnt believe, yet she wants to have the ritualistic celebrations,.... that confuses the crap outta me,.. what will it do to the brain of a child?

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
But your parent's celebrating because they believe is different than them celebrating without belief?

It would be, but my parents celebrated completely without belief for eighteen plus years - none of the kids cared, we all took it as an excuse to be with family, which we loved.

How am I gonna explain to my kid that we (it's mother and I) dont believe,... even though we go through the 'celebration ritual'?

My GF doesnt believe, yet she wants to have the ritualistic celebrations,.... that confuses the crap outta me,.. what will it do to the brain of a child?

That is kind of weird - celebrate the Christian way yet not believe Christianly? Maybe I just don't get it 'cos I'm agnostic. Ask Gil.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by Red Eye Racer

My GF doesnt believe, yet she wants to have the ritualistic celebrations,.... that confuses the crap outta me,.. what will it do to the brain of a child?

Not as much as you might think.

The kid won't know the difference. When he/she gets older and starts questioning things, he'll have figured out why you did what you did. And there's also the option of emphasizing the Winter Solstice instead. Give the kid a lesson in pre-medieval Germanic history.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
But your parent's celebrating because they believe is different than them celebrating without belief?

How am I gonna explain to my kid that we (it's mother and I) dont believe,... even though we go through the 'celebration ritual'?

My GF doesnt believe, yet she wants to have the ritualistic celebrations,.... that confuses the crap outta me,.. what will it do to the brain of a child?

Do you mean like going to church and stuff? Or Christmas trees and candy canes? There seems to be a big difference.

 

[Red Eye Racer]

Originally posted by milefile
Do you mean like going to church and stuff? Or Christmas trees and candy canes? There seems to be a big difference.

Trees, candy canes, santa, ect......

Originally posted by milefile

Not as much as you might think.

The kid won't know the difference. When he/she gets older and starts questioning things, he'll have figured out why you did what you did. And there's also the option of emphasizing the Winter Solstice instead. Give the kid a lesson in pre-medieval Germanic history.

Ok,.. sounds fair 👍

 

[milefile]

Christmas is my favorite time of year and I owe it to my family. I have a big family and we always got together on Christmas. It was always so much fun and each year I go back to it and want the same for my son. All the symbols, even all the BS, contributes to the family tradition. To me Christmas is about family and giving and Love and kids. I get kind od depressed every January because it's another year until it comes round again. Same as when I was a kid. I hope I can make it that way for mine.

 

[Pako]

On this rather off-topic conversation about Christmas, the rituals of the tree's, ect...are of all pagan origin. Leave it up to the missionaries trying to fit into their culture. You can call it what ever you want, but the meaning that 'you' give it is what the "true" meaning of Christmas is. I choose to recognize the birth of my savior Jesus Christ on that day. Birthday's are also of pegan decent. Rituals performed of a blowing out of candles to brings wishes true from the heavens. I just like the idea of giving gifts out once a year to honor that person in my family. I don't take to the pegan rituals or give it pegan meaning or value.

 

[Duke]

RER, go back and check out my post on this subject - it hasn't messed up my kids at all, plus they have a good understanding of it.