LeMONS to LeMANS Race Series -- Season Ended

  • Thread starter chuyler1
  • 862 comments
  • 35,354 views
I'll have to agree with Shark here. Pressuring an opponent into a mistake is a major part of racing and something I actively think about. If I know I'm faster than someone but don't need/want to risk passing, I'll show them some nose on the inside from a distance I know I can't pass from. Make them think you're going for it and they'll hopefully put themselves off. The same thing goes for corner exits, get right up on the person, don't pass, and hope they'll give it too much power. There's no reason for me to not want you to put yourself off the track. The same thing happened in quali when Shark was coming up on me, I was too concerned with him and I put myself in the dirt because of it.

This is how I think these races will be won. Pit strategy, consistency, and pressure.

EDIT: I've noticed a lot of people here don't seem to be into real racing, and that there are huge gaps between whats considered clean in GT and in real life. I'll pass anywhere on the track where I can get by without hitting you, from as far back as I'm confident, and if I can't I'll do my best to make sure you mess up yourself.
 
I think Grenade, Red would have expected that sort of pressure in the 2nd half of the race. The first half he was more interested in running clean laps and pulling away from Diabolic and I.

It will be interesting to see what strategy the two of you use for the next race, when you may end up in the middle of the pack trying to chase down the leaders.
 
There's nothing wrong with goading an opponent into a mistake, it's what they call "nose to tail" or some variation of that in racing. The aim is to pressure the other driver into making a mistake.

However, I don't like what Grenade did, but I can't fault him for doing it. True, it's early in the race, but it's okay I think, to test your opponents mental strength. Basically Redreevos beat himself. Redreevos you're one of the best drivers in the game when you're up front and comfortable. But if it means you get flustered when pressured, I'm gonna use it against you. If I ever catch to you that is :) Note: I did not say hitting, pushing or leaning on another car.

It appears Redreevos was checking his mirror too much and not focusing on his line. Drive your line dude... If we're following the OLR and we should, if someone hits you or send you off the track by leaning on you in turns, they should give you your position back, plain and simple. I think Chuyler needs to enforce this.

Folks: Stop trying to beat people to the inside line/corner in turns. If you're not at least half a car length ahead before the turn in, you're not in-front. That is so annoying. If your faster or a better driver, trust me, you will get around me. All your doing is breaking late, then blasting through the corner, not knowing what line the driver in front is gonna take with the potential of causing an accident. If you feel the person is holding you up, hunk your horn or communicate over mic.
 
Last edited:
I think Grenade, Red would have expected that sort of pressure in the 2nd half of the race. The first half he was more interested in running clean laps and pulling away from Diabolic and I.

It will be interesting to see what strategy the two of you use for the next race, when you may end up in the middle of the pack trying to chase down the leaders.

He could have very possibly made that mistake. What I saw was a whole different animal though. I am going to break down red's previous laps to give you an idea of what I was feeling up front. The strategy I employed was a direct result of his driving style. He was slower then me on turn 1 on average, but faster on turn 2. This was probably a result of being slower on turn 1. The whole first section up to the U turn, he was generally gaining .1-.3 seconds on me.

He was also faster then me through the turn after the uturn, but much slower through the sweeping left. He was able to go faster then me through the last turn, but tended to be slower coming out of it. What was happening through much of the race was me pulling him through the straight where he wasn't quite as fast as me out of the last turn. I was keeping him behind me by slowing him down on the parts he was fast and being faster then him on the parts I was fast.

I was very afraid that if he stayed in front of me for any period of time, he would pull away due to the front section. I wanted to keep him behind me for as much of the race as possible. So, I was very aggressive, but clean at the same time.
I employed a strategy to keep pressure on him. I find most people make mistakes under pressure in this game (I for one make mistakes if you tell a stupid joke).

The difference between doing what I did and not doing what I did could have meant 2nd place for me. If I let him get in his stride, I had no doubt he would pull away.
 
Just want to reiterate that again that I'm okay with everything in the video. If you could overlay the projection of Grenade's car onto Red's, I'm certain the nose would barely scrap, if that, the rear of the 350Z. Plus, he brakes first. Had he broke in response to Red rather than before, I'd consider it wreckless, but this pass I'm fine with.

Calling it "being tricky" is what I dont like. Turning tricks ends in either a wreck or venereal disesae. :scared:
 
Just want to reiterate that again that I'm okay with everything in the video. If you could overlay the projection of Grenade's car onto Red's, I'm certain the nose would barely scrap, if that, the rear of the 350Z. Plus, he brakes first. Had he broke in response to Red rather than before, I'd consider it wreckless, but this pass I'm fine with.

Calling it "being tricky" is what I dont like. Turning tricks ends in either a wreck or venereal disesae. :scared:

I just want to point out that I can also brake in response to seeing another car come in. If you watch the first video, I was much closer to him and he did run his line yet we were never close to touching.

It wasn't as much of a "trick" as it was my driving line plus me trying to create as much pressure as I could without hitting him or impeding him.

P.S. Diablo, you watched the video! OWNED.
 
I think Chuyler needs to enforce this.
If there is an incident you need me to review i would be happy to take a look. It is best to record it yourself though, because slight lag will cause each driver to see something slightly different.

There is some confusion with lap traffic and braking points and exiting corners. The faster drivers implore much later braking points and can hold those lines which can appear malicious to the slower driver. Everyone runs slightly different lines and there are only fractions of a second to make decisions when you approach another car at a faster racing speed. I guess I'm just saying, what appears like a dive bomb to a slower driver looks like a driver yielding the inside line to a faster driver.

My best advice is basically to watch your rearview at all times. If you race with a view that doesn't have a mirror then you need to program a button to look behind and use it before approaching a brake zone to see whether a faster car is coming up on your inside.
 
Diabolic, you were very quick toward the end...but thinking about it now, you had fewer laps on your tires when you came up behind me. I think I was working my way through lap traffic when you first approached, but man you took off like a bandit those last 10-15 laps. At the beginning of the race when I was a little quicker, we were both driving "safe" and also had the same tires on.

I pit on lap 34 and then had to pit again for my running into the tunnel wall on lap 38 or 39. Grenade, Booch and someone were talking and I had a shark moment as while they were chatting about wrecks...something funny was said and not paying attention I went full stop into a wall then nursed the car back to the pits, nearly spinning as Grenade can atest, my way into them.

I had gone into the first pit 16 seconds off the lead and came out 33 seconds behind. On lap 40 I was 1 lap + about 10 seconds behind. I was in the bread and butter zone for tire wear when I caught up to you and my (3) 1:13s then occurred. Had I not needed that 2nd pit, I may have caught up. Like many...I got the car dialed in just to late and having to go 20+ laps with no draft while the leaders are pulling is very hard.

Changing gears...I'm already excited for next Wednesday. The rear drive cars should start moving up the field. I'm not predicting the 4WD onslaught :) to stop but I can see a the Silvias moving up. This next race will be contested. That goofy Cape Ring ding thing has the potential to really catch people out, especially if its being negoiatated by cars that already have damage.

EDIT: We are running the short Cape Track :grumpy: Disregard my later comment
 
Last edited:
I just want to point out that I can also brake in response to seeing another car come in. If you watch the first video, I was much closer to him and he did run his line yet we were never close to touching.

It wasn't as much of a "trick" as it was my driving line plus me trying to create as much pressure as I could without hitting him or impeding him.

P.S. Diablo, you watched the video! OWNED.

Of course...I just wasnt going to watch a full replay. EMANCIPATED!
 
Of course...I just wasnt going to watch a full replay. EMANCIPATED!

I just rewatched that replay again to look for my braking point. I literally braked so early, it was unbelievable. He was 7 lengths from his turn in point when I hit my brakes... I don't mean to beat a dead horse. But seriously...
 
Don't forget, next week we run on Sport Hard tires. That should definitely help the RWD crew.

Cape_Ring_South.png


T1 will be just like the hairpin on GVE-R. It has a little more pavement if you make a mistake though.

There is a light brake zone just before T3. Get it right and you can carry tons of speed through T4.

T5 and T6 are going to be tough. If you are racing hard, it will be easy to end up bouncing off the rails of T6.

T7 is another hairpin but you don't have much time to prepare for it and your braking point can change drastically depending on how well you negotiate T5-T6.

T8 will be a good place for faster cars to pass on the outside, but any pass attempts approaching T9 and T10 will not end well. T8 is obviously full throttle but you need to stay inside to keep the throttle on for T9. A slight lift of the throttle for T10 will keep you from running too wide.

T11 is the tightest turn on the track and exit speed is crucial if you want to make the most out of the short straight. You want to approach it from the outside which means you'll have to sacrifice a little speed on T10 to get the approach right. Don't confuse your T10-T11 approach with the one you might use for the full Cape Ring track. If you do, you'll be pulling into the pit with full front and engine damage.

If you need help finding your way around the track, watch this set of videos. Cars have less power than we will have, but they are on the same tires.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5151551#post5151551
 
I saw a few errors last night after I left the lobby. I was immediately logged out of the PSN. Something has been funky the past few days.
 
By the way, do we still need to share our cars online for the post-race audit? I think this is only maybe necessary for the high finishing positions, but I'm sure everyone participating here is trustworthy based on discussions so far.

Anyway, if I am required to share my car, please let me know when as I want to start tuning/practicing asap.
 
Posted on Twitter

"As you are no doubt aware, the current emergency outage is continuing this afternoon and all Sony Online Network services remain unavailable. Our support teams are investigating the cause of the problem, including the possibility of targeted behaviour by an outside party. If the reported Network problems are indeed caused by such acts, we would like to once again thank our customers who have borne the brunt of the attack through interrupted service.

Our engineers are continuing to work to restore and maintain the services, and we appreciate our customers’ continued support. For further information, please refer to updates on PlayStation.com, here on PlayStation.Blog and via our @PlayStationEU twitter feed."

Paraphrase---Hackers are meanies, but dont worry. We are going to find them and hang them and blame their deaths on the Tsunami.
 
By the way, do we still need to share our cars online for the post-race audit? I think this is only maybe necessary for the high finishing positions, but I'm sure everyone participating here is trustworthy based on discussions so far.

Anyway, if I am required to share my car, please let me know when as I want to start tuning/practicing asap.
I looked at everyone's cars last week and things looked to be in order. The parts people were running is in the spreadsheet. if you feel you should have been quicker than someone else, bring it to my attention and I will drive both cars.

From now until the next race, you do not have to share your car. You do not have to report what parts you are installing until 24 hours before the race. If you need time to try out parts, please do so before Tuesday evening. It will make things much easier for me when updating the spreadsheet. I will not republish the spreadsheet until *after* the race. This will keep your part selections private.

Following next week's race your car needs to be shared as-is (or as close to as-is as possible) for at least 2 days. I will run each car for a few laps around the track and record my best lap times in practice mode. I will then compare those times with the driver's top lap times from the race. I'm not looking to match the times, I'm merely looking to verify the order of top lap times from the race is close to the order of top lap times from my testing. Anything can happen during 60 laps so the only important thing is that the cars were not driving beyond their potential. I encourage others to do similar tests for the 2 days that the cars are shared.

Grenade had hinted toward mucking with his settings to prevent others from seeing them. I know settings are a trade secret...but each week we change tires. Suspensions and other settings will likely be retuned from week to week so your settings for one week won't necessarily work for the next week. I don't have time to spend an hour tuning each car to verify laps. If you feel the need to hide your settings, at least leave me with a setup that runs decent lap times. If you mess with it to the point where the car runs times slower than half of the participants, I'm going to have a hard time justifying the fairness of your first place finish.
 
GJ - Apologies again for bumping you into the wall you coming out of the tunnel which caused you to pit. I wanted to battle with you but I obviously still need to learn how much time I need to give myself to brake when tailing.

No worries at all.. I tried a slightly different line through the last corner and probably braked a bit earlier than you expected. I just got to adjust my strategy to the two pit stop one :).

Then when I tagged the wall on lap 26 I adjusted to the 3 stop strategy!
 
Can you guys tell me what headsets you use? Need to get one..

I think Grenade, I could hear the clearest.
 
Ok, I have a lot to respond to. I will do my best.
First off, I'm glad we are discussing this in the open. It is an educational experience that we can all learn from.

Here is what I see in the 2nd video...

RedReevos lines up for his typical line by putting 2 wheels on the rumble strip. His car has amazing turn-in and this line works. I shadowed him for several laps and was amazed at the balls he had to brake and turn in so late.

GrenadeShark drafts and lines up for *my* typical line by moving inward on the track and shooting for an early apex. Since Grenade and I were driving essentially the same car his line makes complete sense to me. Our cars basically have to drift around that corner to be quick, which means getting the nose to rotate early. I almost always started braking where the right side rumble strip begins. I used light trail braking up until the apex to force the car around. Straight line braking would've just put my understeering car in the sand trap.

Now Grenade claims to be using scare tactics, but personally I would have run the same line as him for 2 reasons. First, its a different car as described above. Second, if he stayed directly behind Red, he may accidentally punt him when he hit the brakes. it is very difficult to see the braking zone when you are that close to someone entering a high speed turn.

However, I can see how Red got a little scared by the move. When someone disappears from your rearview mirror you don't know where they are going to end up.

Since this is a 60 lap event, I was in no early hurry to press the situation. I spent the first 6 or 7 laps understanding Grenade's line and giving him plenty of room. I stayed way off him in turn 1 in those first few laps, because I am way faster through 1 and 2 than him. He takes that corner inside, inside, outside. I take that corner from the extreme outside on the rumbles to the inside edge to the outside rumbles before 2.

He had no idea of my line when he stuck it in there like that. I am in front and have a right to run my line. If I had done this it would have been quite a crash. I know his line through there. Why he would come in late to 1 like that, I had no idea. I have raced on this course before, and when we are going to pass on 1, we have already pulled ahead earlier on the straight. I think it was very reckless to be blind to the fast line to the corner and then just jam it in like that. If he had known my line there, he would have known that by showing that, I had to crash. There is no way to save my line at that point. I did crash, and i guess, "trick" worked.

I am going to break down red's previous laps to give you an idea of what I was feeling up front. The strategy I employed was a direct result of his driving style. He was slower then me on turn 1 on average, but faster on turn 2. This was probably a result of being slower on turn 1. The whole first section up to the U turn, he was generally gaining .1-.3 seconds on me.

He was also faster then me through the turn after the uturn, but much slower through the sweeping left. He was able to go faster then me through the last turn, but tended to be slower coming out of it. What was happening through much of the race was me pulling him through the straight where he wasn't quite as fast as me out of the last turn. I was keeping him behind me by slowing him down on the parts he was fast and being faster then him on the parts I was fast.

I was very afraid that if he stayed in front of me for any period of time, he would pull away due to the front section. I wanted to keep him behind me for as much of the race as possible. So, I was very aggressive, but clean at the same time.
I employed a strategy to keep pressure on him. I find most people make mistakes under pressure in this game (I for one make mistakes if you tell a stupid joke).

The difference between doing what I did and not doing what I did could have meant 2nd place for me. If I let him get in his stride, I had no doubt he would pull away.

I guarantee you that I am much faster on turn 1. The only reason you hadn't seen that, is because if I had taken my normal line, we would have wrecked before turn 2 entrance. I was amazed at how slow you took turn 1. Although, in warmup, I thought you saw me close up about 6 or 7 car lengths just in turn 1. I thought I even remembered you making a comment on it in the mic.

I don't think you realized that I was giving you room the first 6 or 7 laps, and conserving my tires. I was learning your driving style and your line. This way, when I made a pass, it would be in a "good" place. I had more momentum coming down the straight into 1 on several occasions. I decided to slow down and get back behind you, so as not to cause a wreck. Turn 1 to me is wreck city. Especially if one person comes in way too late and is somewhat blind to the fast line through there. I really don't think, even now, that you understand my line. You think you are way back in that video because, I ran off wide trying to avoid you. Where you braked to, "to trick me," was already a collision. If I took my line we were crashed. I go super wide, and cut across the inside of that turn. I just went back one more time to the video to make sure. 100% my rear left corner panel would have come right across your front right corner. I turn in that sharp. Sticking your front corner in that spot, makes me either get wrecked if I take my line(because of the contact), or I have to bail out to the gravel. I, in fact, do believe I read my mirrors properly during the race. The video now confirms that to me.

So I guess I could have made it obvious the fault in the matter. If I had come down, it would have been clear what happened. The problem is, I would have been severely wrecked, and been lucky to finish middle of the pack. The damage is on max. You would have felt bad for wrecking me.. but I would have been wrecked(in the farthest place from the pits). You really don't know me yet as a driver. I assure you, you are not going to pressure me into a mistake. I will however, do what I can to avoid a wreck. In this instance that is what you forced me to do.
 
Last edited:
Ok, I have a lot to respond to. I will do my best.


Since this is a 60 lap event, I was in no early hurry to press the situation. I spent the first 6 or 7 laps understanding Grenade's line and giving him plenty of room. I stayed way off him in turn 1 in those first few laps, because I am way faster through 1 and 2 than him. He takes that corner inside, inside, outside. I take that corner from the extreme outside on the rumbles to the inside edge to the outside rumbles before 2.

He had no idea of my line when he stuck it in there like that. I am in front and have a right to run my line. If I had done this it would have been quite a crash. I know his line through there. Why he would come in late to 1 like that, I had no idea. I have raced on this course before, and when we are going to pass on 1, we have already pulled ahead earlier on the straight. I think it was very reckless to be blind to the fast line to the corner and then just jam it in like that. If he had known my line there, he would have known that by showing that, I had to crash. There is no way to save my line at that point. I did crash, and i guess, "trick" worked.

Red... Buddy... I knew your line. You followed me for 18 laps in my rear view mirror. I never had any chance of coming in contact with you.

Video 1. Explain your point of view. According to the OLR, I had right of way. Had I continued on my line, you would have hit ME. Not the other way around.

Video 2. I braked so early. Stupidly early. Pause the video. MY normal braking point is past the shadow of the sign above. I braked 3-4 car lengths before that.

The fact of the matter is that you had no idea where I was and got scared and ran wide. That's it. You lost track of me in the turn and when you couldn't find me, you ran off track making sure. Had you known where I was, you would not have even had to worry as your line was completely clear. This is borderline ridiculous at this point. You didn't pay enough attention to my lines and didn't figure out that is how I take that turn.

Basically at this point, it seems you are mad that I pulled aside of you into the line I was going to take instead of staying behind you. Watch the video again. I didn't jam your line. I didn't block your line. I didn't have any effect on your line. You did all of this because of what you thought I was doing. Well, I didn't do it. I didn't even come close to doing it. You are claiming all these things would have happened. The video evidence just doesn't support what you are saying. I never tried to pass you in turn 1. I gave you the right of way both times, even though in the first video, I had it.

This is just absurd...
 
Last edited:
This is an interesting discussion as far as Red and Grenade goes. It will certainly make the next race more fun, I think. What's funny? I wanna be like Red with his smooth driving lines and Grenade who's faster on the stretch :drool:
 
Back