LeMONS to LeMANS Race Series -- Season Ended

[redreevos]

Video 1. Explain your point of view. According to the OLR, I had right of way. Had I continued on my line, you would have hit ME. Not the other way around.

I think we have a different view on the OLR. If it is your right front bumper and my left rear corner panel making contact... I call that a punt. It would have ended my race. There is absolutely no move to pass me there that doesn't create a wreck.

I think you are mis-reading the video. The only reason there is so much apparent room between us, is because I ran off to the outside to avoid the contact. I still don't think you understand the fast line through that corner. I think if you had, you would have never attempted that stunt.

I will try and borrow my wife's phone later(the video fuction on mine is horrible), and post a video of the line through that turn.

 

[chuyler1]

I can't be certain without seeing Red's replay, but judging from Grenade's replay, he was essentially in Red's blind spot from the brake zone (the sign shadow) until the apex. Grenade did play it safe with his line, but it looks fatal from Red's POV because he can't see any of it. Personally, I would've thought you were going for a pass too, but I would've given exactly 1 car width between the apex and my line to let you do it. In other words, I would've forced you into checking up or at least holding inside after the apex.

 

[redreevos]

Red... Buddy... I knew your line. You followed me for 18 laps in my rear view mirror. I never had any chance of coming in contact with you.

This incident happened way before lap 18. Grenade, you did not know my line, and you still do not. If I took my line on any of the early laps, we would have wrecked. I would have had to give you a 7 or 8 car head start into that turn, for me to be able to run my line.

For future reference, I don't like being called "Buddy," if it is not sincere.

 

[grenadeshark]

I think we have a different view on the OLR. If it is your right front bumper and my left rear corner panel making contact... I call that a punt. It would have ended my race. There is absolutely no move to pass me there that doesn't create a wreck.

I think you are mis-reading the video. The only reason there is so much apparent room between us, is because I ran off to the outside to avoid the contact. I still don't think you understand the fast line through that corner. I think if you had, you would have never attempted that stunt.

I will try and borrow my wife's phone later(the video fuction on mine is horrible), and post a video of the line through that turn.

First of all, lets get a couple things straight. I had the fastest lap of the night. Not you. Your fast line through that corner works for YOUR car. The fast line for MY car is what I was taking. You can't take that line and be fast with my particular setup.

A: When approaching the turn/apex of turn, the car which "holds" the inner side of turn has entrance-advantage and other driver(s) must refrain from endangering him by his actions.

Video one. I had inner position and therefore entrance advantage.

B: You must establish substantial overlap with the car ahead before they reach the corner’s turn-in point to have the right to drive up their inside, or to expect them to leave inside room for you. At least the front of your car should be up to the driver’s position in the ahead car. The ahead driver has the right to be fully committed to the racing line of their choice without any interference if there was no substantial overlap before he turned in.

Again, Video one. Me. Video two, I didn't have this so I got on the brakes very early to give you room.

E: Drivers who are using PS2/PS3 controller MUST make additional effort in driving due to the fact they can't use side-view, and their perception of the other cars is thereby limited - extreme caution while maneuvering is required. If you are using a controller, you are required to set buttons up for side views as "I didn't see you." is not an excuse if you collide with another driver when racing.

No excuses for not knowing where I am. Check video one again. You were saying? Look at the video. I wasn't even on full brakes after you went wide.

The reason there are two videos posted is because I was proving that I could out brake your turn in (which I did). You were never in danger of anything.

This incident happened way before lap 18. Grenade, you did not know my line, and you still do not. If I took my line on any of the early laps, we would have wrecked. I would have had to give you a 7 or 8 car head start into that turn, for me to be able to run my line.

For future reference, I don't like being called "Buddy," if it is not sincere.

The lap counter in the top left corner would like a word with you... There is no way you have read the OLR and are still complaining. Everything I did was by the books. Had you tried to pass me in turn 1, it would have been you at fault. You didn't take your line because you couldn't without running into me.

If I was barreling into the corner like you said, you should have just let me barrel myself right into the dirt. A quick brake tap on your part would have had me going off right??? (hint: wrong).

I can't be certain without seeing Red's replay, but judging from Grenade's replay, he was essentially in Red's blind spot from the brake zone (the sign shadow) until the apex. Grenade did play it safe with his line, but it looks fatal from Red's POV because he can't see any of it. Personally, I would've thought you were going for a pass too, but I would've given exactly 1 car width between the apex and my line to let you do it. In other words, I would've forced you into checking up or at least holding inside after the apex.

In the first video, he does just this and I am forced to check up (which I did). Then again, I had right of way in the first video.

P.S. This has gone beyond too far. Read the OLR people. Show me in the OLR where I did something wrong and we can debate that. I am a very clean racer and I will always try to be. I don't take well to people calling me out on their own mistakes and misjudgments especially when evidence to the contrary is present.

 

[redreevos]

Personally, I would've thought you were going for a pass too, but I would've given exactly 1 car width between the apex and my line to let you do it. In other words, I would've forced you into checking up or at least holding inside after the apex.

Unfortunately with the speed I had carried into the turn, there is no way I could have given 1 car width. Especially when you consider I take that turn with two of my tires on the grass, and the other 2 on the rumbles. He takes that turn, without even hitting the rumbles a fair amount of the time. Essentially, I would have had to go 2.5 car widths wider to avoid the wreck. It was simply not possible.

If there was any chance that a fair passing move could have been made there, I would have either:
A. Blocked the inside line.
B. Gone in at a speed where I could have given him room to the inside.

There was no "fair" passing move there. He was way to late to even attempt a move there. I just think it was ignorant(as he doesn't know the fast line through there) and reckless.

 

[grenadeshark]

Unfortunately with the speed I had carried into the turn, there is no way I could have given 1 car width. Especially when you consider I take that turn with two of my tires on the grass, and the other 2 on the rumbles. He takes that turn, without even hitting the rumbles a fair amount of the time. Essentially, I would have had to go 2.5 car widths wider to avoid the wreck. It was simply not possible.

If there was any chance that a fair passing move could have been made there, I would have either:
A. Blocked the inside line.
B. Gone in at a speed where I could have given him room to the inside.

There was no "fair" passing move there. He was way to late to even attempt a move there. I just think it was ignorant(as he doesn't know the fast line through there) and reckless.

You're ignorance is beyond reproach. I didn't try to pass you. Get it through your head. Look at video one... Look at my racing line for the other 58 laps... Seriously. WTF? You crashed yourself. Get over it.

 

[redreevos]

First of all, lets get a couple things straight. I had the fastest lap of the night. Not you.

Are you talking with a draft? You yourself said you thought without pulling some sort of "trick," that I would have probably pulled away from you. I was running consistent 13.3 to 13.8 in my practice leading to the race. I put down a 13.5 pre-race that everyone could see. I think the further we talk about this, the faster that you think you were.

As far as your statement about OLR, I think this is the heart of the matter we need to address going forward. If you think "punting" is acceptable, we need to discuss this further. Your right front hitting my rear end while I am running my line is not acceptable. At this point I wish I had run my line and been clipped by you. All of this would be so obvious at that point. Unfortunately I chose to avoid your recklessness, and run myself off the track.

My main point in all this, is that your "trick" in fact caused me to run off. There is a reason people don't do that. It is not because we don't have the great mind to come up with these great race strategies. It is because, if you misjudge this move, the other person is wrecked. You were never in danger, I was. This seems acceptable to you, and I just wanted to address this going forward.

Like I said, after the race, I was not mad. I just figured you made a mis-judgement. As we are taking this further, unfortunately, I am starting to feel a bit mad and strongly frustrated.

And please keep in mind, I never asked for anything to be done about the incident. I just don't want to be put in this position in future races.

 

[chuyler1]

Just to be clear,
Video 1: Had a collision occured, it could have been either driver's fault. They were nose to nose and if Grenade went wide it would've been his fault. Likewise if Red had cut in, it would have been his fault. OLR states you must maintain your side of the track when cars are side by side.

Video 2: Had a collision occured, it would have been Grenade's fault for sure. He never made sufficient overlap. However, he was aware of this and turned in early, braked early, and stayed behind Red at all times. He ducked into his blind spot which isn't a crime. If he were really trying to pass, he would've been along side Red when he went off-track, not behind him.

There was no collision in either video so its just aggressive racing. Red, next time let him hit you. Grenade is a good sport and would wait for you to re-enter the track if he did. I think all of us have been tapped by grenade at one point or another and he always apologizes and lets us back in front. It might have sent you into a 4-wheel drift around turn 2, but I think you're a good enough driver to have caught it without damage.

As for driving lines, I suggest you drive his or my car. I tried your line once during the race...and almost ended up in the sand trap. Our cars are probably 100kg heavier and the AWD system wears the front tires faster than the rear making the car understeer more and more each lap, especially on turn entry. It's not that he didn't know the fastest line, its that his fastest line wasn't yours. He most likely ran faster laps by gaining time in other places. You were both fast and probably could have raced side by side the entire 60 laps.

 

[grenadeshark]

Are you talking with a draft? You yourself said you thought without pulling some sort of "trick," that I would have probably pulled away from you. I was running consistent 13.3 to 13.8 in my practice leading to the race. I put down a 13.5 pre-race that everyone could see. I think the further we talk about this, the faster that you think you were.

As far as your statement about OLR, I think this is the heart of the matter we need to address going forward. If you think "punting" is acceptable, we need to discuss this further. Your right front hitting my rear end while I am running my line is not acceptable. At this point I wish I had run my line and been clipped by you. All of this would be so obvious at that point. Unfortunately I chose to avoid your recklessness, and run myself off the track.

My main point in all this, is that your "trick" in fact caused me to run off. There is a reason people don't do that. It is not because we don't have the great mind to come up with these great race strategies. It is because, if you misjudge this move, the other person is wrecked. You were never in danger, I was. This seems acceptable to you, and I just wanted to address this going forward.

Like I said, after the race, I was not mad. I just figured you made a mis-judgement. As we are taking this further, unfortunately, I am starting to feel a bit mad and strongly frustrated.

And please keep in mind, I never asked for anything to be done about the incident. I just don't want to be put in this position in future races.

I went beyond strongly frustrated with your inherent refusal to actually read the rules, look at the evidence and admit your own faults not based on how you feel, but based on what actually happened.

I didn't punt you. I didn't come close to punting you. You in your own head, decided that I was too close for comfort. Good. That's what I wanted to happen. I want you to feel stressed when I am racing behind you. I want you to feel the pressure of someone riding your ass like a 70s drill sergeant.

You just don't get that you were never in danger. You have still yet to comment on the fact that had I not yielded to you in turn one, you would have hit ME and it would have been YOUR fault. You ignore all these things and continue to blame me for your own misjudgment.

 

[grenadeshark]

Just to be clear,
Video 1: Had a collision occured, it could have been either driver's fault. They were nose to nose and if Grenade went wide it would've been his fault. Likewise if Red had cut in, it would have been his fault. OLR states you must maintain your side of the track when cars are side by side.

Video 2: Had a collision occured, it would have been Grenade's fault for sure. He never made sufficient overlap. However, he was aware of this and turned in early, braked early, and stayed behind Red at all times. He ducked into his blind spot which isn't a crime. If he were really trying to pass, he would've been along side Red when he went off-track, not behind him.

I agree. If i hadn't held my inside line, it definitely would have been my fault as the OLR says I have to give him room even if I have the line.

There was no collision in either video so its just aggressive racing. Red, next time let him hit you. Grenade is a good sport and would wait for you to re-enter the track if he did. I think all of us have been tapped by grenade at one point or another and he always apologizes and lets us back in front.

I am aggressive, but I am clean. I never hit anyone that entire race outside of a miscalculation on a lapped driver. I thought he was giving me the line when he was actually just going a bit wide. And to be fair, I have been intentionally pit maneuvered or taken off track by nearly every person as well

As for driving lines, I suggest you drive his or my car. I tried your line once during the race...and almost ended up in the sand trap. Our cars are probably 100kg heavier and the AWD system wears the front tires faster than the rear making the car understeer more and more each lap, especially on turn entry. It's not that he didn't know the fastest line, its that his fastest line wasn't yours. He most likely ran faster laps by gaining time in other places. You were both fast and probably could have raced side by side the entire 60 laps.

Redreevos was overall faster then me. I can't argue that. But, I raced in a way to promote my strengths and exploit his weaknesses. He is so stuck on the fact that I was trying to pass him there, where I wasn't. I also gained time on him in multiple sections lap after lap, but no mention of that anywhere by him.

P.S. Redreevos, you drafted me for 10-15 laps. I drafted you for 2 laps and put down the fastest lap per the replay live timing monitor. I didn't watch past lap about 35 though, so someone could have beaten my 13.5 at some point.

 

[redreevos]

You're ignorance is beyond reproach. I didn't try to pass you.

It is funny that you use the word ignorance here.

You still don't realize, that you put your car where it forces me to run off to avoid a collision. You still don't understand my line. You were already at a place that either A. caused a collision, or B. I would have to run off track.

This argument is becoming a bit strange to me. You already stated earlier that you pulled this "move" to force me wide. I would not have gone wide unless I thought that you were going to wreck me. You say that this was your "trick," to make me think that. The problem is, that you don't know the fast line through there. Your "trick" was already an accident.

I have no sour grapes in this. I have never asked for the position back. I have never debated over who won the race. If you look earlier in the thread you can even see that I state that clearly.

My whole point is, that unless you know the other driver perfectly, these "tricks" will often cause a wreck. Not always because it is the front driver making a mistake. Often times it will be because you put your car past the point of safety. You still do not understand the fast line through that turn. So every time, you don't understand my line, when you pull your "trick" I will be wrecked. I don't think this is a good strategy for a series where we are all trying to build comraderie and become better drivers.

 

[chuyler1]

I think we need to drop it. Everyone has stated their opinions. Red if you want to post a video of your POV that is fine, but otherwise I think we should move on.

 

[grenadeshark]

I think we need to drop it. Everyone has stated their opinions. Red if you want to post a video of your POV that is fine, but otherwise I think we should move on.

I'm ok with this. Red, you got the last word in so it's over. See you on the racetrack. 👍

 

[redreevos]

I went beyond strongly frustrated with your inherent refusal to actually read the rules, look at the evidence and admit your own faults not based on how you feel, but based on what actually happened.

I didn't punt you. I didn't come close to punting you. You in your own head, decided that I was too close for comfort. Good. That's what I wanted to happen. I want you to feel stressed when I am racing behind you. I want you to feel the pressure of someone riding your ass like a 70s drill sergeant.

You just don't get that you were never in danger. You have still yet to comment on the fact that had I not yielded to you in turn one, you would have hit ME and it would have been YOUR fault. You ignore all these things and continue to blame me for your own misjudgment.

I am not even sure we are having a conversation at this point. I have read the rules. I never said I "refuse" to read them. I am not even sure where this statement comes from. I have been in quite a few racing series, and no one has ever commented to me being dirty. I would gladly give up a spot cleanly, then even contest a spot in a matter that could be conceived as dirty. I will always let a faster car by, unless it is the final few laps, and we are battling for position.



Lol at your comment about the drill sergeant. I feel no pressure from someone being behind me. If they have a fair right to the corner, I will always give them room. I think it is great fun to race in close quarters.(if done in an un-reckless manner)

I think it is funny that you still call it my misjudgement.

I guess what this all boils down to in the end, is how are you going to race going forward. Are you going to continually use these "tricks" to make anyone around you think that you are reckless? Should everyone think that they are going to be wrecked by you? Is this what you want?

EDIT: I just read the statement from you Chuyler. I am fine stopping. I would like to hear a response to my last paragraph, but it can be done through pm. I will do my best to post a video of my line. I think it will help with the understanding of all of this.

 

[IforceV8]

It was a stupid pass attempt in video 1 and you had the sense to brake and not cause a crash.To then do the same thing on the next lap

I have no problem with you showing him you nose to the inside in a legitimate passing zone,but to do it in that spot no way.

I guess if "tricks" are all you have to win a race then good luck to ya.I for one would be installing a "Chrome Horn" on my car for the next round.

 

[redreevos]

I just got a pop-up on my screen like someone sent me a private message.. Then my browser locked up. I just logged back in, and can't find a new message in my pm folder.

If someone did send me one, can you please re-send.

 

[grenadeshark]

I just got a pop-up on my screen like someone sent me a private message.. Then my browser locked up. I just logged back in, and can't find a new message in my pm folder.

If someone did send me one, can you please re-send.

Its still there. Click on your private messages in the top right corner. It should be there.

 

[OvaltineJenkins]

I like to join up on this too, but I think the price tag allows for too many real sports cars. Can I race a 30k "beater" with you guys without earning points? I was thinking of starting a series like this but for VERY cheap cars, cars with a "sell car" value of under 5k and only 2500 to spend on parts. Honor system. Like in the real 24 hours of LeMons suspiciously fast cars will be subject to a host of random penalties/black flags.

 

[chuyler1]

Ovaltine, when this series finishes, I will likely start a new series and change the rules a little to adjust for any issues we have along the way.

One issue already found is the price differences in the UCD. Using the sell value of a car might be a good solution. Its not something we can easily look up though and the value is likely based on mileage and may or may not reflect recent engine rebuilds. Although it is contrary to the "lemons" theme I think the best solution is going with premium cars only. Its just too bad there aren't more to choose from.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I think using PP instead of price might be better, but again, no using restrictor plates or weight to make PP allowances.

But... the reason for my post. I hate to add to the wall of text that has passed in the last day, but I must apologize to Sleight and Baldwin. I am terribly sorry.

First... what I saw during the race...

Lap three, turn one. Coming down the straight was Baldwin, Sleight, and then me. I was faster than Sleight to begin with. With the draft, I easily slingshot past him. And he starts passing Baldwin. We go into the first turn, me on the inside, Baldwin on the outside.

I am far enough ahead of them, that I can't see them. They are beside me, in that blindspot made huge by our lack of peripheral vision. But, I am confident that I am far enough ahead of them on the inside that I can claim the inside line. As we start to brake though, I realize that I'm too shallow and that if I enter the corner at this angle, I'll leave it too wide. If one of them tries to pass me on the outside, I'll surely push them off the course.

I figure I'm going to just break so I can stay on the inside, even leaving the corner. If I slow down enough, I'll fall in behind them and pass them on the next lap.

Again, I can't see them, but something happened. I was bumped, and I get shakey. All I know is all three of us are fighting to keep our cars stable. I don't know if someone turned in too soon, or if someone's back-end broke free under braking. I don't know.

There was other chatter, and I don't know how often my Rocketfish headset is working, so I have no idea if anyone heard me when I was asking what happened.

I watched the replay just now. It seems that I turned to the outside. I don't remember doing this. It was not intentionally. I don't know if it was just my car breaking loose under braking or what. But it looks clear to me that I caused the accident.

I am terribly sorry.

As it turns out, Baldwin chased me down a few laps later and passed me (and left me far behind). I think I would've beaten Sleight even without that accident, but I totaled my car later in a single-car accident and that was it.

Baldwin will continue to beat me all season and I think the Silvias will mature better than my Impreza (possibly better than the other ones as well) and I will fall further behind as the series rolls on.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

I dont get how folks were able to argue the whole day...meanwhile flippin' hackers have stole PSN from us for the forseeable future

 

[sl3ight]

That was just a weird situation in general. I think your car got a bit upset and you had to correct, at least that's what I perceived. No harm done on my end! Had a good time trying to chase you down, it's a shame you ended up ditching it, your car is fast.

Regarding PSN, as far as I can tell this wasn't the work of anons. Most of them aren't really hackers anyway, it's just a bunch of script kiddies with LOIC. They aren't targeting PSN anymore due to its effects on gamers.

 

[grenadeshark]

I dont get how folks were able to argue the whole day...meanwhile flippin' hackers have stole PSN from us for the forseeable future

Is it still down?

 

[sl3ight]

Is it still down?

It's down but as far as I can tell it isn't the work of anon. I have a feeling something broke.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

I read it could be up to 36 hours offline from start or 16-18 hours ago. In the meantime...I'm actually playing the game!

 

[grenadeshark]

I had an idea to remedy this situation that redreevos and myself have.

Lets say I would have hit him and killed his race. He goes from 1st to 7th or 8th. I could be docked 5-15 points and have it added to his total along with him getting half of my prize money for that race.

This would have to be an obvious overtake that was grossly negligent. I am sure we can come up with a solution that is more elegant. But, people have a right to race their line without being impeded. At the same time, people who are driving aggressively have the right to do so as long as they don't come into contact with another driver or impede their racing line if they don't have the right of way.

 

[chuyler1]

I will let you and Red come to conclusion offline. If you want to swap points or something just let me know. I highly doubt Red would have lost more than one position since Diabolic was still over a lap down by the end I think.

 

[sl3ight]

I think the entire argument is ridiculous. No contact was made. One driver messed up and put himself off the track because he got scared by the car behind him. In my opinion, that's the end of it.

 

[fatrab]

Grenade is talking about how this should be handled should this happen in the future.

 

[redreevos]

I will let you and Red come to conclusion offline. If you want to swap points or something just let me know. I highly doubt Red would have lost more than one position since Diabolic was still over a lap down by the end I think.

Yeah, we will come to our conclusion. This was never about points in the current discussion. I am not making a request for any point changes, it was just a matter of us discussing what occurred. We have both spent a lot of time today exchanging words. I think we are most likely going to agree to disagree.

Grenade, a few posts above, was just talking about what the punishment of an incident should be in the future.