LeMONS to LeMANS Race Series -- Season Ended

[redreevos]

I think the entire argument is ridiculous. No contact was made. One driver messed up and put himself off the track because he got scared by the car behind him. In my opinion, that's the end of it.

I appreciate that you want to weigh in on the situation that was talked about on the forum. From watching the replay, if I had come down, the way I do on that turn, there would have been contact. My only other choice, was to go out into the sand trap. I feel like I had two choices, take my rightful line, contact would have occurred, and being on the outside there, I would have ended up in the outside wall with massive damage. So, great, I would have proved to be in the right, but my race would have been finished.

Grenade thinks that contact would not have occurred. This is our whole argument. I guees if I had come down, we would know 100% if I would have been punted to the outside wall, or that we would have missed by several inches. It cannot be proven either way, hence why he and I are not coming to a conclusion. I chose to take the route to avoid ending my race. It was not me "messing" up.

Ultimately as the front car, I am the only one to know the line I was going to take through that turn. He came in at a strange fashion to make me think I had to bail out. Our discussion is over the matter of whether that is appropriate.. and beyond that, whether contact would have occurred if I hadn't bailed out.

For reference, I start way outside, put the car in a slide, have two tires in the grass and two on the rumbles at apex... the slide continues all the way out to the rumbles right before turn 2. You will be hard pressed to see this line during the race, as I did not run it when behind Grenade, for the excessive speed would have caused me to crash into him between 1 and 2. Not long after the incident I damaged my suspension and could not run this line either. If you saw me at all during the warmup, you would have seen me take this line.

On the turn in question, I had no idea that he would throw it in there so late. On the first replay, you can see that I left him room to the inside. In the second video, the move was so late that it surprised me. I thought my race was over when he did it. After seeing the replay, I see that he was trying to "bluff?" Even with him thinking he backed out, after seeing the replay, I believe adamently that contact would have still occurred. Nothing can be proven about whether contact would have occurred. Had it, my race was done.

I chose to avoid it and bail out. I hope this makes sense as to his and my discussions. Please also know that I gave him ample amounts of room in turn 1 when I was following him. Turn 1 had the highest probability on the course of ending someone's race if there was an incident.

I am not sure why you think the whole argument is "rediculous" (is this a play on my name, or a mis-spelling, not sure.) You think me avoiding a crash is ridiculous. Using mirrors to keep my race going. Or do you think if there is no contact, no matter who was at fault ridiculous. (this is all my perspective, and can't be perfectly proven whether the contact would have occurred. Simply my opinion, on the line that I know, and I take.)

Grenade, please correct me if I am mis-representing anything here.

 

[sl3ight]

I think it's something that did deserve a look after the fact, not to find fault in the incident, but to learn what happened. I understand both points of view as they've been explained ad nauseam. I'm not refuting either argument, and it's impossible to know what could've went down had x, y, or z happened.

 

[polizei]

my .02 on the Redrevo/grenadeshark pass: From the video, it looks like typical pressuring from behind. Showing the nose on the inside is a very common technique to pressure the driver in front. It's intimidating and intended to make you second guess your line, or make a mistake. Unfortunately for Red, it looks like you made a mistake. The maneuvers were a little close but this is gt5 online racing, it isn't perfect. In reality, he could have stayed side-by-side and that potentially would have ruined both your races, but his braking is evidence that Grenade was pressuring Red

This kind of pressuring leads to after-race disputes all the time. Very very common. But not against the rules as i understand them.

 

[xonant]

I think having an open debate about the different perspectives will in the long run help. What you don't want is people feeling that they can't talk about their differences and then retaliate on the track. That would spoil the fun for everyone.

Due to this discussion I have a lot more respect for Red and Grenade, and, I think Red and Grenade are closing in on common ground, which will surely translate to the track.

I hope everyone will learn from this. It's been suggested already, and I'll suggest it again: Everyone should read the GTPlanet OnLine Racing (OLR) Rules & Guidelines The debate between Grenade and Red focuses on Rule 08: Cornering Rights:

 

[grenadeshark]

I don't think its fair that RedReevos is allowed to continue spouting out crap about his side of the story after chuyler officially ended the argument on the last page.

After numerous PMs with RedReevos, all I can say is that we are no better then when we started. I continue to believe my side of the story and he continues to believe his.

Although, on a more entertaining note. He has sufficiently brain ****ed me with all this ******** to the point where an on track rivalry is definitely in full motion.

In the words of Ricky Bobby

I came here to tell you one thing. Come race time tomorrow I'm coming for you.

 

[polizei]

why are we doing cape ring south, there are a ton of better tracks

 

[chuyler1]

why are we doing cape ring south, there are a ton of better tracks

I wanted another short circuit with a good combination of straights, turns, and passing zones. I also wanted something that had some risky turns to promote the risk/reward that goes along with running with full damage on.

 

[RockinVs]

im kinda glad i missed this first race.

my car is squirrelly with comfort tires, and i probably would have punted people. if i miss a brake zone even a little, my line would go way wide.

also, i tend to brake early, so i know i would be rear ended.

about the grenade-red controversy... it all looked legit to me. i actually understand both sides. grenade was in his blind spot. red couldnt see what he was doing, he went a little wide and missed his braking point since he wasnt ready to have to change his line that much. grenade was following his line and did give enough room, but the second video shows he goes inside much later, making red think he was going to need to give room, and he couldnt fix his line without either running too wide or having a potential collision. by going to the inside though, grenade was avoiding a punting style accident. if red hit the brakes early, grenade wouldnt hit him.

they made the best decisions that they know, but im sure red wont make that mistake again.

the only thing that i dont like is the bad language being used. grenade, calling people ignorant and saying they are spouting "crap" is not going to make the other person see your side.

i try to be conservative on the track, but a lot of others arent. bumps are going to happen.

and to end it all... it is a game! if i get hit, so be it. it happens.

 

[redreevos]

I don't think its fair that RedReevos is allowed to continue spouting out crap about his side of the story after chuyler officially ended the argument on the last page.

After numerous PMs with RedReevos, all I can say is that we are no better then when we started. I continue to believe my side of the story and he continues to believe his.

Although, on a more entertaining note. He has sufficiently brain ****ed me with all this ******** to the point where an on track rivalry is definitely in full motion.

In the words of Ricky Bobby

I thought I was properly representing what we were conflicting on. I said at the end, to please respond to anything you thought I was mis-representing. I was not trying to restart everything, but just explain to people where we were at in our discussion. We did start this on the forums, and it is fair that some people have been reading all the excessive words we have typed, and want to know what is up.

I have a few things more that after receiving your pm this morning I need to get out. I apologize to you, Chuyler, if this is beyond your wishes. If after I post this, Chuyler, you want me to remove any part of it, I will.

From the beginning, I never asked Chuyler to make a ruling on any of this. I never asked for a positional or a points change. I have no problems if someone accidently makes a dangerous move. I avoid many of them by using my mirrors, but also get collected in many others. It happens, no big deal.

My issue with all of this, is the fact that he did not know my line through that turn. I followed him for multiple laps, and gave him tremendous amounts of room. You can watch the race replay to watch these early laps. He says he pulled this "trick" on purpose, and would have missed me. A miss by mere inches. That is fine if it is calculated and you have done your due dilligence, and understand my line. I am not sure, how not knowing my line, he claims he has such precision in his driving that he can miss me by inches. I feel like he is telling me he is so good, and such an amazing driver, that he knows all lines, and has the skill to adjust his inches, to still miss me by inches no matter the line I take. He said he will do this every time. I have no problems with close racing, this is the fun of online racing. But you need some understanding of your competitor for it to work properly. All I wanted from all of this, was just a little consideration before diving in on me like that next time. We are in a long series, with max damage on. I was hoping that we could pick our battles a little better. If you have learned my line, and know there is room to do it, go at it. If you have no idea how I take a turn, and I have all the rights to the turn, just please be reasonable. That is all I wanted going forward.

Unfortunately this morning the pm's got way to personal for me. I have let Chuyler know that I joined this series for a chance to meet some new friends, and have fun. After this mornings pm, I realize this is simply not possible. Multiply this pm, by the fact that Grenade spends a lot of time on the mic during the race.. and I think you might understand why I am pulling out.

Here is the excerpt that bothered me the most.. It is not edited in any way, but is only the second half of what I received. I have also told Chuyler he is welcome to view any of the other pms sent, so as not to give a one-sided view. Excerpt from Grenade:

When you claim only you can see what would have happened, you are not only insulting me. You are insulting every other person who has ever raced and watched that video. You're inability to come to terms with reality is that of legend. You have got mad cows disease and are adamant you are going to spread it around.

I just can't deal with this kind of stupidity being rampantly thrown out like it's the truth. You are delusional.

You have literally brain ****ed me for two days straight. I was hoping via PM, it would come out that you are just more upset then anything else. We have all done it. I have blamed people for things that were basically my fault. Oh wait, I am sure you have never done this either...

You are the reason jury trials in the world let people like O.J Simpson go clean. But, just like O.J. you will pay your dues.

Thank you all for being good to me on the track. I think you guys will have fun the rest of the way. I hope my pulling out doesn't adversely effect the rest of you, and the series in general. I hope you can understand my reasons. I will turn my car over to Chuyler, in case he wants it.

Thank you all, and hopefully I will get to race with you in a different location.

Rees

 

[chuyler1]

Well said Rockin. This conversation has resorted to name calling and I would like to drop it before people start dropping out (if they haven't already). I really can't say anything more about the subject other than I hope we can all race respectfully next week. I am looking forward to battling against faster cars on the track and I don't want the experience ruined with a shouting match.

EDIT, oh well, I guess I'm too late on this post.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I don't dislike Cape Ring South, but I don't see why we are running it after GVE. I think GVE would favor cars that have had more money put into them more than CRS will. In other words, after spending this weeks money on our cars, if we ran the GVE race again I would do better than I will running the CRS race.

I could be wrong, but that is my impression of CRS. It is more of a equalizing track, like Autumn Ring Mini.

also, i tend to brake early, so i know i would be rear ended.

I don't think drivers should worry about this. I did brake early (I'm not very good). And I did get rear-ended. Fortunately, the damage was negligible, so I don't care. If it had been significant then I would've call for a review. You should do the same.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

I think that sending the PM information from grenade to Huyler only would have been best, but I can EASILY see why you'd let us all in. No one should have to open their message box to those words.

Red,
If I ever get around to hosting an event...consider yourself personally invited.

 

[redreevos]

Red,
If I ever get around to hosting an event...consider yourself personally invited.

Thank you Diabolic. I appreciate your invitation.

Sorry everyone, I don't want you guys to feel like you need to pick sides. I just felt like I should at least let you guys know why I was pulling out.

 

[chuyler1]

Cape Ring South has been listed since the beginning. If you had issues with it, you should have spoken up about it a lot sooner than now. It has plenty of wide open throttle sections for faster cars to pull ahead while not going overboard. I'm trying to promote strategy with mods as well as driver skill. Drivers might get the same benefit from a tuned suspension as they will a turbo, and drivers who placed low on the previous race will have enough cash to install both.

Unless we can come up with a majority ruling to change the track, it is going to stay.

 

[sl3ight]

I really like Cape Ring South. It really requires a good rhythm and has a bunch of quality passing points. Looking forward to this one.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

.

Unless we can come up with a majority ruling to change the track, it is going to stay.

I'm not saying change. This is the first time doing this series for all of us. I'm sure some things might be change the second time around. I suspect that the track order might be considered.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

Second time this week multiple tornados have hit the greater St. Louis metropolitan area. I cannot remember the last time a tornado hit downtown St. Louis...but this is already being coined the Good Friday disaster. Our airport was at the epicenter and is now closed indefinately as well as are highway 270 (which is a ring road around the city) and several local interstates. The video of the airport after the storm are crazy. Shuttle buses flipped or hanging off the edge of parking garage. Triage has been set-up at the USO...its just surreal. If anyone knows folks here...may want to say a prayer...tornado producing storm ran through the most highly populated corridor in STL Buildings are missing sides/roofs and the roads are littered with power and transmission lines.

The weathermen kept giggling though saying 'not thats its funny but'

I wanted to reach through the TV and do something religious folks wouldnt approve of to them.

 

[RockinVs]

I don't think drivers should worry about this. I did brake early (I'm not very good). And I did get rear-ended. Fortunately, the damage was negligible, so I don't care. If it had been significant then I would've call for a review. You should do the same.

Im not too worried, I just am expecting it.

And diabolic, be safe out there.

I also just realized I won't make next week either. Have to work th. morning. I will choose my mods and such accordingly though. If psn ever comes back up that is.

I also say keep the tracks as they are.

Chuyer, you should set up a feeler thread for the next series. I have an idea, but there is no way I can host.

 

[grenadeshark]

im kinda glad i missed this first race.

my car is squirrelly with comfort tires, and i probably would have punted people. if i miss a brake zone even a little, my line would go way wide.

also, i tend to brake early, so i know i would be rear ended.

about the grenade-red controversy... it all looked legit to me. i actually understand both sides. grenade was in his blind spot. red couldnt see what he was doing, he went a little wide and missed his braking point since he wasnt ready to have to change his line that much. grenade was following his line and did give enough room, but the second video shows he goes inside much later, making red think he was going to need to give room, and he couldnt fix his line without either running too wide or having a potential collision. by going to the inside though, grenade was avoiding a punting style accident. if red hit the brakes early, grenade wouldnt hit him.

they made the best decisions that they know, but im sure red wont make that mistake again.

the only thing that i dont like is the bad language being used. grenade, calling people ignorant and saying they are spouting "crap" is not going to make the other person see your side.

i try to be conservative on the track, but a lot of others arent. bumps are going to happen.

and to end it all... it is a game! if i get hit, so be it. it happens.

You missed literally a novels worth of PMs. What you saw was the resultant frustration coming out. As low class as he thinks I am, I am still not going to post any excerpts from his PMs...

 

[chuyler1]

I'm not saying change. This is the first time doing this series for all of us. I'm sure some things might be change the second time around. I suspect that the track order might be considered.

Well I didn't pick the tracks at random, I made them sequentially larger in length and I stuck with circuits and stayed away from street tracks.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

I do wish we were running a version of Cape that included the actual 'Ring.' Cape Ring North includes the Ring and is only .38 miles longer (2.01 vs 2.39) than South. Laguna Seca is 2.24 miles so that would disrupt the evolution of running longer tracks, but I'd vote for running any version that includes the 'Ring.' With the tires will be running...navigating the ring on balding tires will add quite an interesting twist. No biggie if we are not though.

 

[chuyler1]

I've driven a few FR cars on the uphill ring and they can get dangerously tail happy. I stayed clear of that version of the track because I thought it would be way too unfair to the AWD folks who can simply plow through it. If you recall, we did a muscle car race on the periphery last week and I saw drivers spinning out left and right...and that was on sport soft, not sport hard. 60 laps of that would get old. The half-ring at Cape Ring south will provide enough of a challenge on worn out tires.

 

[fatrab]

It's a bit late to be complaining about tracks people.

 

[polizei]

I appreciate that you want to weigh in on the situation that was talked about on the forum. From watching the replay, if I had come down, the way I do on that turn, there would have been contact. My only other choice, was to go out into the sand trap. I feel like I had two choices, take my rightful line, contact would have occurred, and being on the outside there, I would have ended up in the outside wall with massive damage. So, great, I would have proved to be in the right, but my race would have been finished.


Grenade thinks that contact would not have occurred. This is our whole argument. I guees if I had come down, we would know 100% if I would have been punted to the outside wall, or that we would have missed by several inches. It cannot be proven either way, hence why he and I are not coming to a conclusion. I chose to take the route to avoid ending my race. It was not me "messing" up.

I'm not taking sides, i'm just presenting my opinion on the matter, but the fact that grandeshark is braking on that corner in the videos posted, and allegedly did the same thing a for a few laps, is proof that contact could not have occurred. Yes it is putting pressure on you, but that is what you are supposed to do in a race. If we all were courteous drivers and gave tons of room there would never be a pass. Pressuring drivers ahead is part of the strategy. It isn't just a test of driver skill, but nerves as well. Especially after he did the same thing after a few laps you should have realized, if you have any experience whatsoever with racing, that he was putting pressure on you. His braking shows his intent was not to pass and therefor i don't see how he could have hit you.

Watch this from about 3:30 on, its just an example of how 2nd place puts pressure on 1st place. You fill the mirrors, you make them think you are reckless, whatever, you want the driver ahead to make a mistake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-GGBjqpxyQ

On an other note, my car sucks, i doubt i will be competitive in any race even if i maxed my car out.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

It's a bit late to be complaining about tracks people.

Well, yes and no. I'm not really complaining. I don't ask for anything to be changed this time around.

I only point out something so others can look at it and see if they agree and see if, if this series were to be repeated, is that something that could be improved.

Again, to me, this series is built so that the cars will mature at different rates, so bad drivers will have better cars than the better drivers. This will, hopefully, make them competitive. If Red, Chuyler, and Grenade dominate the entire series, then I would consider this a failure.

In my mind, each week, the course should favor the car over the driver a little more. For example, I think Autumn Ring Mini favors the driver over the car more than Grand Valley East. At ARM, the difference in the cars don't matter as much as the difference in the drivers. At GVE, the drivers matter, but the cars matter a little more. Look at me, I was able to stay infront of the Silvia's on GVE. It wasn't because I had improved between ARM and GVE, but because my car was faster.

Anyway, I suspect that Cape Ring South is more like ARM than GVE (though closer to GVE). I think it favors the driver more than the car.

I hope that all makes sense.

 

[polizei]

I can't even practice with stupid PSN down

 

[chuyler1]

I see your point Vol, but i don't think CRS is the same category as ARM. CRS has 3 open sections for more powerful cars to open up on. The front straight will have cars pulling hard out of 2nd gear. The back straight just after the first series of esses is long enough to make a decent pass (provided you get a good exit from the esses). Then the sweeping right hander is another place to scoot around cars on the outside if you manage your grip correctly.

All the tracks I chose are technical to some extent as to not completely favor the car over the driver. This is still a competition of skill more than anything. The reward system is designed to help drivers who may have chosen less than perfect cars, or who maybe can't squeeze every 10th out of every lap. I did not intend the system to allow bad drivers to run circles around good ones...but that will eventually happen if you lose enough races.

 

[polizei]

oh trust me, i could max my car out and still be slower, my car is just not working for me >:0

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

All the tracks I chose are technical to some extent

Which is good. I'd hate to run some simple, NASCAR oval.

I did not intend the system to allow bad drivers to run circles around good ones...but that will eventually happen if you lose enough races.

I don't want to run circles around you. I just want to be able to finish a race on the same lap.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

It's a bit late to be complaining about tracks people.

Wasn't complaining...just giving two cents, hence I ended my post with 'no biggie'