LeMONS to LeMANS Season 3 [Wednesday]

[morbo]

 

[morbo]

 

[BTK]

Cool photos, that turn 1 shot, showed the intensity of the middle pack.

 

[morbo]

 

[morbo]

 

[dabneyd]

I made the race really exciting by cutting corners to try to run down dabney. In no way did that gain me 2 sec per lap all the time. Let me say it only cost me one point but got me an additional $2500. Bwahahaha thanks for the engine 1 free upgrade

👎 You could have run the laps clean and caught me, I'm pretty sure. It does seem that you got a reward for being penalized; I think you should receive the reward you got pre-penalty.

Also, my car was down 6PP after the race. Is it normal to lose that much?

 

[morbo]

my pp was down by 5 after the race

but i didn't change oil/rebuild engine before the race, so i don't know if it was because of previous mileage

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

👎 You could have run the laps clean and caught me, I'm pretty sure. It does seem that you got a reward for being penalized; I think you should receive the reward you got pre-penalty.

Since the cash is meant to be a parity device, it does sound like the cash should not change just because there is a penalty assessed. All drivers should get cashed based on their position, and then points based on the outcome after penalties.

 

[Cujo 940]

Since the cash is meant to be a parity device, it does sound like the cash should not change just because there is a penalty assessed. All drivers should get cashed based on their position, and then points based on the outcome after penalties.

That would be crap, ur gonna knock me down then I get the cash.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

That would be crap, ur gonna knock me down then I get the cash.

Well supported reasoning there.

The cash should be allocated on the position you finished the race in, not the position you should've finished the race in. Otherwise, we would be taking cash away from the sandbaggers since they are artificially affecting the outcome, too.

 

[chuyler1]

Since this was not discussed before...due to the fact I didn't expect to see any corner cutters in this series...the reward money will stick with the adjusted finishing position. It puts your points, and vehicle roughly where it belongs for the next race.

I will take corner cutting complaints seriously. Fuji has potential for drivers to run wide on multiple corners with no consequences. Do it once and I'll consider it a warning. Do it over and over again and you'll be deducted several seconds per incident from your final time.

Just so we are clear, the following red zones (beyond the green strip) are off limits during the race. Accidents happen so if you end up out there, let your opponent by and lift off the throttle to re-enter the track so the replay clearly shows it was not intentional. If you stay full on the gas and put all 4 wheels off the track...it is cheating.

 

[sl3ight]

Or people could just not cut corners and we wouldn't need this discussion.

Seriously guys, keep it clean.

 

[morbo]

red section 02 is my danger zone

so i'm practising that corner religiously

if i go off, i will lift off the throttle and allow any closeby traffic to pass me, then i will return on track

this means i need to avoid doing that for the first few laps while the pack is still tight

 

[chuyler1]

Yep, it is easly to brake too late or not enough for turn 2. Get the car to rotate early though, and you'll be on the power until midway through turn 4. The final turn on the track is deceptive too. It is an increasing radius turn, one of the only ones in the game that I can think of off hand. I brake lightly with my car in the middle of the track. As soon as I get enough bite to get close to the apex I coast and start applying throttle. When following someone, it often looks like they are running wide into the turn, but an extremely late apex will give you more straight track to work with.

 

[sl3ight]

I love this track because of how strange the line around it is. Getting 2-3-4 and 7-8-9 just right is so satisfying.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I love this track because of how strange the line around it is. Getting 2-3-4 and 7-8-9 just right is so satisfying.

I'm feeling comfortable with 2-3-4. I'm sure others are faster than me, but that is just a in-general everyone is more aggressive than me because I can not pull out of oversteer so I do everthing to avoid it (usually my attempts to counter oversteer cause the car to snap back in the other direction).

7-8-9 is very frustrating. It is a series of corners that, to me, truly underscore the fault of driving a car through the shadow box that is the TV. I feel like I should go so wide and deep before I turn in that the corner falls off the side of the screen. If I were driving for real, I could simply turn my head. On this, you have to just hope the corner is still there (and that someone hasn't dived into the corner beside you. it doesn't matter that he is taking a slower line at this point, he is now in the way of the faster line).

 

[sl3ight]

If I were driving for real, I could simply turn my head.

This is something that drives me insane in GT5. Basically every PC racing sim has an option to turn your head in some kind of proportion to how much you turn your wheel.

 

[chuyler1]

The problem with 7-8-9 is...

* 8 and 9 are decreasing radius turns with late apexes, which are the toughest to master both with driving and tuning (The first curve and spoon curve at Suzuka are also tricky for this reason...but they are actually double-apex decreasing radius turns)

* The track width entering 8, and entering 9 is wider than necessary. If you place your car on the outside part of the track like you would entering any other corner, you'll run out of track.

* The apex is off-screen until after you have began to turn in. Even Hamilton mentions they are "blind" in this pole lap video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjvDuNNtdv4

So what's the secret? I brake much lighter on these turns and use braking oversteer to rotate the car. If your car understeers under braking, keep messing with the brake balance until you can get it to rotate as you apply more brake pressure. Once the car has turned enough for you to see the apex, get back on the gas. If you apex too early, just lift off the throttle for a second and it should help your car turn in without running wide. If you're having trouble getting the right entry speed, try just coasting through the turn until you can figure out how to carve the corner out and hit the apex at the fastest speed the tires will hold.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I do understand what you are on about there. The last corner, as with most of the corners on this course, are all ones that if I am not accelerating before I hit the apex, then I know I've done it wrong.

The first corner, as far to the left of the front straight as I can be. I get down to the speed that I think I can take the corner in and I begin turning (just before the corner goes off screen, actually). As soon as I can see the red and whites beyond the corner, I can get back on the gas. I'm accelerating not only before the apex but before I can see down the straight after the corner.

Touch the apex and then two wheels on the red and whites on the outside and I'm shifting up as soon as the car is going straight. The whole track is built around this idea.

p.s. Nice video. I saw the link from that to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2nC2gK3bbg&feature=fvwp&NR=1 . It has a Porsche which isn't like our cars but is closer than a F1 car. Also nice to see the cars he passes, like that old Cosmo.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

I hate 4. Not that its difficult, but I always have this feeling that I'm coming out to low, that I could get on the gas a lot sooner to use up more of the corner. The line there, like on 8 is really awkward, thats all

 

[chuyler1]

I almost always miss the apex of 4 by several feet. I usually have the right angle, I'm just not as close as I could be. This track I think flows better with faster cars with more grip and downforce...but you guys voted for it

 

[BTK]

What happened to our brake conversation?

 

[chuyler1]

Sorry, I forgot to reply. You race with a controller...I do not. That plays a little into tuning since there are things I do with the wheel that you will not do with a controller. I have tried rear biased brakes on several occasions when I first started to learn how to tune and combining them with a wheel never worked. My first experience was with the Ferrari 512BB at le Sarthe. The car would spin out braking at high speed.

Weight transfer is going to occur no matter what your brake settings are. If you were able to run 0/10 in a MR you'd have extremely long braking distances because the more you brake, the less weight there will be on your braking tires. Furthermore, as your rear tires began to overheat, they would have less grip than the fronts causing oversteer the second you turned the wheel. There is a reason all cars have larger front brakes...even rear engine Porsches.

The game models grip via two parameters, temperature and tread life. Lateral and horizontal grip increase the tire temp equally, so if you build up too much heat during braking, you'll jump to the next grip level during the turn. Even if the tire stays white, there are varying degrees of grip before the tire turns red.

For an MR car, reducing a 5/5 balance to 5/4 stabilizes the rear end because it reduces the amount of heat built up in the rear tires during initial braking, giving you more headroom for holding the additional rear weight when you make it to mid-corner. I went one step further and ran 4/3 to ensure I wouldn't burn up the tires under braking. I don't think my tires went red once.

Exiting turn 2, the corkscrew, and the final turn, my car was completely planted. The only oversteer I saw was when I lifted off the throttle mid corner. Rainey curve was the culprit. I would rarely brake on that turn and just coasting could cause the rear end to step out.

For a FF car, running higher rear bias like 5/7 works due to the same tire temp principle. Rear tires will never heat up enough in the corners to provide optimum grip, so increasing the rear bias will induce abs lockup and pump a little more heat into the tires without any affects on stability. Plus, if you begin to understeer, you can tap the brake pedal under full throttle to get the rear to step out and adjust your line.

 

[jamesybograt]

nice lesson chuyler.
personaly i run 9/8 as i brake for a short straight spell ,
it is only in this game i do this as in real life i would trail brake (left foot braking) but with no feel from your motion senses it is hard to guage slip angle and correct.

the weight transfer is one of the motion senses you get in real life .

 

[chuyler1]

The Force Feedback wheel gives you a good sense of how much grip you have and if you watch my replays you'll see that I do quite a bit of trail braking. However, the game allows controller users to use your approach of brake first, turn second to produce similar lap times. It baffles me that tapping buttons can yield the same behavior...but as long as people are competitive it makes things exciting i guess.

 

[jamesybograt]

The Force Feedback wheel gives you a good sense of how much grip you have and if you watch my replays you'll see that I do quite a bit of trail braking. However, the game allows controller users to use your approach of brake first, turn second to produce similar lap times. It baffles me that tapping buttons can yield the same behavior...but as long as people are competitive it makes things exciting i guess.

to true

it all about good racing

 

[BTK]

So what point are you trying to make? Yes heat affects grip levels, but overheating alone will not affect your weight mid-corner. A lower rear brake will cause the weight to shift to the rear mid corner, and increase friction to the rear tires, more than just heat would.

A lower front brake would force the front tires to understeer and straighten the car, which means that the front tires are scrubbing off rubber instead of the rear. With the heat from the rear, and the friction of the front sliding, means all tires will have the same grip level with heat being built in.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

with no feel from your motion senses it is hard to guage slip angle and correct. the weight transfer is one of the motion senses you get in real life .

YES!!!!

My MGF buries itself if I miscalculate transfers. I dont know how PD could ever realistically portray this sensation, but I cant think of anyone who wouldnt love it if they did

 

[sl3ight]

YES!!!!

My MGF buries itself if I miscalculate transfers. I dont know how PD could ever realistically portray this sensation, but I cant think of anyone who wouldnt love it if they did

Go try out any highly regarded rFactor mod. Those guys have pretty much figured it out and theres no good reason why PD can't.

 

[BTK]

Also trail braking, do you mean braking while turning in?