Live Stream: FIA Gran Turismo Championships New York World Tour

About the fuel, Hizal had less fuel than Igor, according to Ordoñez. On the penultimate lap he was on map 3. And on the last lap, map 6...
Hizal would not win this race even if he had overtake Igor after the Eau Rouge.

If Igor had gotten the penalty during the race, Hizal would have won. But they didn't even know the incident was under investigation, so for all intents and purposes, Igor's block was seen as clean up until the race had finished.

David Perel himself today basically said the same thing that I did in a discord channel chat, even quoting the same battle, I don't have footage of it but I remember quite clearly. He says drivers do this all the time. Igor is not obligated to do eau rouge flat out.

Footage? Because not going flat out is different from what Igor did. He started half throttling going down, then all the way up mid throttle. That's slowing too much to block, not lifting slightly to keep a GT car in place.

David Perel is a great guy but he drives GT cars. Formulas, especially in a game, go full throttle through there no problem, as they did in every other lap.

Watch again, Igor is on the 'ideal line'.

Nope. Ideal line is out,in,out. Nick was on the outside and besides Igor through the corner. Watch again and see how everyone managed to avoid pushing drivers out except the only driver on softer tires. No one was on the ideal line and the ideal line doesn't exist when there are cars side by side. Pretty basic.


Edit: Just noticed I'm replying to Brazilian users. Wonder why that is.
 
After reading a bit here and on social media the general opinion is that Igor won by driving dirty.

The thing about these events is that everyone is essentially competing about honor. There is very little money involved.

A victory like Igor got is pretty worthless and will be attached to his name in the future. Hopefully everyone will learn from that.
 
After reading a bit here and on social media the general opinion is that Igor won by driving dirty.

The thing about these events is that everyone is essentially competing about honor. There is very little money involved.

A victory like Igor got is pretty worthless and will be attached to his name in the future. Hopefully everyone will learn from that.

Igor wins either way. Hizal had to fuel save (apparently switched to map 6) so Igor would have easily passed him. Sure he did a dodgy move, but thats not the reason he beat Hizal
 
If Igor had gotten the penalty during the race, Hizal would have won. But they didn't even know the incident was under investigation, so for all intents and purposes, Igor's block was seen as clean up until the race had finished.



Footage? Because not going flat out is different from what Igor did. He started half throttling going down, then all the way up mid throttle. That's slowing too much to block, not lifting slightly to keep a GT car in place.

David Perel is a great guy but he drives GT cars. Formulas, especially in a game, go full throttle through there no problem, as they did in every other lap.



Nope. Ideal line is out,in,out. Nick was on the outside and besides Igor through the corner. Watch again and see how everyone managed to avoid pushing drivers out except the only driver on softer tires. No one was on the ideal line and the ideal line doesn't exist when there are cars side by side. Pretty basic.


Edit: Just noticed I'm replying to Brazilian users. Wonder why that is.
No one overtakes outside on La source. Who is on the outside, there is only one alternative, which is through the scape area... It was a too optimistic move. ;)
 
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Does anyone know if Hizal and Latkovski wanted to be referred to as German-Turkish and Australian-Macedonian? I thought those were somewhat odd comments from the official stream.
 
Also @zzz_pt you wanted footage right?

Watch the tape of the title decider race of the 2016 f1 season between Hamilton and Rosberg in Abu Dhabi. On this case the reason was different (Hamilton was faster but wanted to make Rosberg to suffer with the guys behind) but the intention was the same: unsettle the car behind by being considerably slower.

Hamilton wasn't penalized. It was basically the same principle imo.

The only way I see this as a bad behavior is in the case of brake checking, which wasn't the case here.
 
Someone knows where is Setted the YouTuber he was one of the best rival on the Beta of GTSport of Igor Fraga ?

 
Igor wins either way. Hizal had to fuel save (apparently switched to map 6) so Igor would have easily passed him. Sure he did a dodgy move, but thats not the reason he beat Hizal

Nope, he lost his racing honor this time.

No matter how you or anyone else tries to spin it. And dodgy is a strange word for dirty. If he hadn't played dirty it would be a completely different discussion.

Maybe it would be about Hizal losing because he messed up the fuel strategy, or how Hizal defended his way to a victory or maybe how dirty Hizal was so that he could win.

But when you win by being dirty you write your own story. Exactly what Igor did.
 
Does anyone know if Hizal and Latkovski wanted to be referred to as German-Turkish and Australian-Macedonian? I thought those were somewhat odd comments from the official stream.
Not sure, could be just a talking point for them, but it's accurate, I prefer accurate
 
There's not much I want to say here because I've said quite a bit in a few places.

- At this point, they have to start adjusting the BOP in Manufacturers to the combos they will run at live events. Some Manus have the advantage of having solid cars in both groups and given the current format, that's a big advantage.
- The solo Manu races are too short. Needs 2~4 more laps and with less wear.
- Why is the refueling rate much lower at live events? Fuel saving isn't the most popular thing and it only gives it greater weight. Hurts far more in Manu where you can't do much if your car is a guzzler.
- Hyundai scored zero points total. Time to replace F for respect with H until further notice.
- Would've preferred Spa for the final Manu race over Interlagos but only with a corresponding BOP change.
- Are repercharge races are going to be all gimmicks from now on? Not to say the race itself wasn't a spectacle to watch. It's just about the most random way to choose the remaining drivers.
- Andrew Brooks finally reached a Final after being so close to being eliminated in the first race. Well done.
- All the goodwill Nik had built up in NYC went away in one move.

As for the big controversy with the Eau Rouge move, I watched the part in the stream showing the actual replay along with the inputs. From what I saw, Igor began lifting (to about half throtttle) approaching the complex, went brief full throttle, half throttle to halfway up the hill before going flat out the rest of the way. Based what I've been told, Eau Rouge is flat out in the Red Bull, even on hard tires. Now, I am well aware that deliberately slowing down through a corner is a tactic used in real racing. I've done it myself in GT Sport (the Gr4 RCZ forces you into this, even if you don't want to sometimes). However, there's a greater degree of risk involved when the cars used are quite high in speed - cornering and straightline - and a specific corner is expected to be taken flat every time by a competent driver. If Mikail was a lot closer to Igor, then Igor could've made this work with far less controversy. Mikail would've saw the speed reduction sooner and realized that based on the closing speed, the pass would have to be done mid-corner. Cheeky but clever like his tactic the prior lap. Since it didn't line up right, Igor should've continued through Eau Rouge at full speed.

Instead, Igor decreased his throttle input again while going up the hill. The speed differential between his actions and a normal approach is large enough that it has the same effect as a brake check. Worse, it's much harder to notice that speed differential from behind because of the elevation change and the corner's general profile. The end result is Mikail got to Igor's rear near the top of the hill and he had to hit the brakes to avoid a collision. Under those circumstances, Igor's actions crossed the line and warranted a penalty.

Now, I've already heard the counterarguments that it's not a penalty becuase the lead driver has corner rights, lifting is not brake checking, it's done in real racing and so on. I must disagree because:

- If you're going to argue that his amount of lifting was acceptable, then with that logic, completely lifting off the throttle would've be okay too. Might as well start allowing some brake checks mid-corner since it's more efficient. It's a box that shouldn't be allowed to be opened.
- In real life, there aren't that many cars that could take Eau Rouge flat out at those speeds with that level of consistency, if at all. Someone tries to slow down by that much and it goes wrong, the consequences are far greater than just blocking someone.
- While the leader is given options to defend, limitations remain on what actions are allowed. Although stewarding standards for these live events have been quite lacking, they at least decided that on this occasion, it was not okay. Feels like the bar has inched upwards for once.
- We all make fun of the sportsmanship videos but if Gran Turismo places such an emphasis on it, then what unfolded today was against that spirit. These live events are supposed to bring out the best about racing and yet, here we are discussing about how it brought out the worst.

So much for keeping it brief. It's not even a full day yet and I'm already worn out by all of this.
 
If the slipstream wasn’t so overpowered, the Fraga / Hizal incident would not have happened.

The only ”benefit” of an OP slipstream is to stop the car ahead getting a gap, if they are good enough to....why would anyone want that? From a sporting sense, it is not pure racing. Add in all that dirty air and we have a large anti-reality part of the game exposed. We saw yesterday the top 2 drivers reaction to this.
 
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who cares

I care.



It’s one thing to slow down to let another car pass so that you can benefit from the slipstream, but to slow down to the point where the car behind needs to step on the brake is just foul play. It was a well deserved penalty, I would have loved to see it doubled just to make it a bigger learning impact for him.
 
There's not much I want to say here because I've said quite a bit in a few places.

- At this point, they have to start adjusting the BOP in Manufacturers to the combos they will run at live events. Some Manus have the advantage of having solid cars in both groups and given the current format, that's a big advantage.
- The solo Manu races are too short. Needs 2~4 more laps and with less wear.
- Why is the refueling rate much lower at live events? Fuel saving isn't the most popular thing and it only gives it greater weight. Hurts far more in Manu where you can't do much if your car is a guzzler.
- Hyundai scored zero points total. Time to replace F for respect with H until further notice.
- Would've preferred Spa for the final Manu race over Interlagos but only with a corresponding BOP change.
- Are repercharge races are going to be all gimmicks from now on? Not to say the race itself wasn't a spectacle to watch. It's just about the most random way to choose the remaining drivers.
- Andrew Brooks finally reached a Final after being so close to being eliminated in the first race. Well done.
- All the goodwill Nik had built up in NYC went away in one move.

As for the big controversy with the Eau Rouge move, I watched the part in the stream showing the actual replay along with the inputs. From what I saw, Igor began lifting (to about half throtttle) approaching the complex, went brief full throttle, half throttle to halfway up the hill before going flat out the rest of the way. Based what I've been told, Eau Rouge is flat out in the Red Bull, even on hard tires. Now, I am well aware that deliberately slowing down through a corner is a tactic used in real racing. I've done it myself in GT Sport (the Gr4 RCZ forces you into this, even if you don't want to sometimes). However, there's a greater degree of risk involved when the cars used are quite high in speed - cornering and straightline - and a specific corner is expected to be taken flat every time by a competent driver. If Mikail was a lot closer to Igor, then Igor could've made this work with far less controversy. Mikail would've saw the speed reduction sooner and realized that based on the closing speed, the pass would have to be done mid-corner. Cheeky but clever like his tactic the prior lap. Since it didn't line up right, Igor should've continued through Eau Rouge at full speed.

Instead, Igor decreased his throttle input again while going up the hill. The speed differential between his actions and a normal approach is large enough that it has the same effect as a brake check. Worse, it's much harder to notice that speed differential from behind because of the elevation change and the corner's general profile. The end result is Mikail got to Igor's rear near the top of the hill and he had to hit the brakes to avoid a collision. Under those circumstances, Igor's actions crossed the line and warranted a penalty.

Now, I've already heard the counterarguments that it's not a penalty becuase the lead driver has corner rights, lifting is not brake checking, it's done in real racing and so on. I must disagree because:

- If you're going to argue that his amount of lifting was acceptable, then with that logic, completely lifting off the throttle would've be okay too. Might as well start allowing some brake checks mid-corner since it's more efficient. It's a box that shouldn't be allowed to be opened.
- In real life, there aren't that many cars that could take Eau Rouge flat out at those speeds with that level of consistency, if at all. Someone tries to slow down by that much and it goes wrong, the consequences are far greater than just blocking someone.
- While the leader is given options to defend, limitations remain on what actions are allowed. Although stewarding standards for these live events have been quite lacking, they at least decided that on this occasion, it was not okay. Feels like the bar has inched upwards for once.
- We all make fun of the sportsmanship videos but if Gran Turismo places such an emphasis on it, then what unfolded today was against that spirit. These live events are supposed to bring out the best about racing and yet, here we are discussing about how it brought out the worst.

So much for keeping it brief. It's not even a full day yet and I'm already worn out by all of this.
I agree with everything you said, especially:
- H (my good mate Connor was in there)
- What goodwill?
- Longer individual manu races, yes, but there's only so much you can do in the allotted broadcast time
- Just because Lewis Hamilton did it doesn't mean it was exactly the same, if anyone has video to compare that would be great but I would guess that Hamilton did it more subtly and Vettel was able to react and all the conditions (distance, closing speed, positioning, how much throttle was let off) were right for it, the x2019 is different and what Igor did was, as you said, equivalent to a brake check
- The mandatory sportsmanship videos actually has Tom Brooks (or someone that sounds like Tom) saying "don't do things that make you look bad" and a few variations of "... make you look bad", I think those videos need to be shown at the beginning of every world tour so the drivers and the audience at least have a reminder to keep it clean and show good sportsmanship, (and we can make fun of the video :lol:)

Edit: whoops it was Vettel
 
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If Igor had gotten the penalty during the race, Hizal would have won. But they didn't even know the incident was under investigation, so for all intents and purposes, Igor's block was seen as clean up until the race had finished.



Footage? Because not going flat out is different from what Igor did. He started half throttling going down, then all the way up mid throttle. That's slowing too much to block, not lifting slightly to keep a GT car in place.

David Perel is a great guy but he drives GT cars. Formulas, especially in a game, go full throttle through there no problem, as they did in every other lap.



Nope. Ideal line is out,in,out. Nick was on the outside and besides Igor through the corner. Watch again and see how everyone managed to avoid pushing drivers out except the only driver on softer tires. No one was on the ideal line and the ideal line doesn't exist when there are cars side by side. Pretty basic.


Edit: Just noticed I'm replying to Brazilian users. Wonder why that is.

2017 Belgian Grand Prix | Race Highlights

Is it that hard to google ? Hamilton did two lift off's to Vetel on in this race in the restart in fact Vetel did catch him on the top of Eau Rouge same way as Hazal catched Fraga no penalty for Hamilton. The second time was behind a safety car in Baku where Hamilton break tested Vetel (still no penalty) and then Vetel intentionatly crashed into Hamilton behind the safety car (5 seconds penalty for Vetel). So if same Spa Stuards were watching the Fraga move I doubt there will be even a penalty for this one. I understand you don't like Igor from all your posts but please be objective here.
 
That repecharge race was the dumbest thing Ive seen in a while. If they really must run this again they need to put some damage on and make them use some kind of strategy.

Makozi and Igor need to be kept after class and forced to re-watch those etiquitte videos a thousand times. "How not to look bad". Poor mistakes from these two.

PD need to make a video about not giving up and force Lightning to watch that a hundred times before the next event.

The rest of it was enjoyable to watch.
 
Would solve 99.9% of problems.
To think that the damage would automatically improve the sportsmanship of the participants seems delusional.
Damages, as such, do not change behavior, it is their consequences that do. Damages in real life are, first very expensive, endangering the commercial viability of racing teams, and secondly, they put at risk of serious injuries or even death to drivers.
In any simulator these two consequences do not exist, the damages do not imply real cost, nor do they endanger the physical integrity of the participants, so their only consequences may be a waste of time or the impossibility of continuing the race. Both the loss of time and the impossibility of continuing the race can be simulated with the tools available to the commissioners, time penalties and disqualifications.

Moreover, even in real life with all the real consequences of driving risk in motor racing, participants do not stop committing stupidities and risk accidents due to the fight for positions.

Keep in mind that in the incident yesterday between Latkovski and Miyazono some damage would have ended the race day of both, depriving Miyazono of the consolation prize of 4th place. More real would have been, but not more fair, or more sporty, or better spectacle for the spectators.
 
To think that the damage would automatically improve the sportsmanship of the participants seems delusional.
Damages, as such, do not change behavior, it is their consequences that do. Damages in real life are, first very expensive, endangering the commercial viability of racing teams, and secondly, they put at risk of serious injuries or even death to drivers.
In any simulator these two consequences do not exist, the damages do not imply real cost,

Fix your car after race with Credits ?
 
Oh boy. Where do I even start? I'm not even sure why some of these drivers bother to ruin things for themselves. They are supposedly the best of the best and yet they did things that I wouldn't even dare. Does Latkovski seriously think that he can compete at this level and do stupid things in anger? It's childish and in my league it would probably be a penalty, a qualifying ban or a race ban. It's happened to me before; I've been banned from qualifying after punting someone off. Latkovski did something just as bad; getting in someone's way and causing them to crash. He's an absolute disgrace to Australia and it's frustrating for me to watch. There was no need for him to act like that!

Fraga definitely used some questionable tactics which I don't think were sportsmanlike, or in the spirit of motorsport. But because the stewarding SUUUUUCKS, he gets away. WTF. Who the hell purposely backs off to let his opponent through to get a slipstream? Who lets off at a flat corner like Radillion to back up their opponent? Not me. I would try to defend the inside on the Kemel into Les Combe and if I get overtaken, so be it. I'll probably get another opportunity to re-pass my opponent. Fraga had the wrong mentality and it confuses me because he races IN REAL LIFE. The other incident is just as silly; I know there's nothing in the rulebook saying that Fraga can't back off, but it's immoral (and dangerous) to back off through a flat corner when someone is behind. What an awful display from someone who should know better.

I know I'm not an American, but it was great to see @Dodge Lamb get third in the Repechage and go into the finals. The emotion was clear to see and hear from the crowd. They must've loved it! Your reaction was just priceless. Well done mate!
 
My thoughts on the event:

- The presentation was awesome.
- Manufacturers was great all around. Sure, there were a few sketchy moments, but the short duration of the first three races didn't help with that.
- Cody and Adam put on a really good show at Fuji and followed it up with an amazing finale in the Interlagos race.
- Nations started off very well, arguably better than Manufacturers. Both semifinals had a lot of action and clean racing.
- The repechage was sort of a meme race :lol: Exciting, but didn't really test driver skill as much as it should have, considering that it decided 4 of the 12 positions in the final.
- The final was going pretty nicely until lap 16 (?), when Cody pulled off that shameful move on Miyazono and robbed him of a certain podium or potential victory (that said, I enjoyed seeing Coque on the podium).
- Igor's move on Mikail was dirty. Eau Rouge (Raidillon?) is supposed to be taken flat, even with Hards and slipstream, so the only reason Igor had to lift was to deliberately slow down Mikail. It's even more surprising since he races in F3 IRL, where a move like that would easily have ended both of their races.
- Had Mikail overtaken at that point, dirty air would probably have prevented Igor from passing him back altogether, or at least slowed him down a lot. I can't know if Igor could have won in that case, but it would definitely have been a better and more deserved win.
- The 5 second penalty was ridiculous. The stewards were fully aware of the fact that it wouldn't change the result. It's just adding insult to injury.

Overall, it was a great event. It's a shame that the Nations final ended like that, because up until that point it was hardly a contest as to which World Tour has been the best so far. I hope PD notice the audience's reaction and make things right for Mikail.
 
In my book igor cheated and is now a caught cheater.

What he did was much worse than what Latkovski did for example.

Latkovski made a bad mistake in a "in the heat of the moment" situation, but what Igor did had intent.

He should appologize not only to Mik, but to the fans as well.

Some of you going after Mik weirds me out btw. There wasn´t much he could do after losing the slipstream while fuel saving.

I do think Igor would have won either way btw, and I think Mik probably lost the race right in the beginning because he could´t keep Igor in check for more than a few corners.

@TRL LIGHTNING you will win one of those evtually.
 
Also @zzz_pt you wanted footage right?

Watch the tape of the title decider race of the 2016 f1 season between Hamilton and Rosberg in Abu Dhabi. On this case the reason was different (Hamilton was faster but wanted to make Rosberg to suffer with the guys behind) but the intention was the same: unsettle the car behind by being considerably slower.

Hamilton wasn't penalized. It was basically the same principle imo.

The only way I see this as a bad behavior is in the case of brake checking, which wasn't the case here.

It is a different situation, slowing though tight twisty sections is just good defensive driving, we see it all the time in touring cars to force the attacker to defend from cars behind. This is more akin to Montoya at Monaco in 2005, where he was sent to the back of the grid for "brake testing" Coulthard on the run up the hill after turn 1. Here is part of the stewards reasoning: "As Montoya's progress was impeded in a minor manner, he braked and took exception to his lap being disturbed and subsequently drove unnecessarily slowly in a very fast part of the track," Reuters quoted from the stewards statement, "The result was that Jacques Villeneuve, who was also on a fast lap, was unable to stop and hit the rear of David Coulthard's car, which then went into Ralf Schumacher's."

I do think the penalties need an overhaul, it can't just be a predetermined time that in most cases doesn't really redress the incident. In IMSA they have the philosophy of "if you ruin someone's race we'll ruin yours." Whether its from being over aggressive diving or a honest mistake, a stop and hold (usually 60 seconds) will be given. Where in the BTCC when you "push to pass" or fire some one off track, you'll be given just the right amount of time to place you behind the driver you wronged (could be 0.6 or 12.6 s) or a Strike of the incident was bad enough. Speaking of the BTCC strike system, I think they could implement something similar.
"As with previously, some on-track driving offences will continue to receive ‘reprimands’. From 2019, three reprimands will now constitute a ‘Strike’.

A Strike will also be automatically applied for a more serious offence; as an example, when a driver is found to be wholly to blame in an incident that causes another driver to be unable to finish the race. In this case the recipient of the Strike will also receive the additional penalty of a minimum 20 seconds added to their race time.

The current Strike tally-system remains as is, with a third Strike resulting in a driver being demoted to the back of the grid, a fourth resulting in a race ban and so on. A reprimand or Strike remains recorded against a driver for 12 months, as is currently the case."
 
Fun to watch, controversy can be entertaining from the outside looking in this seasons F1 series is proof of that. These tactics used online would never be implemented in a real race particularly if you're putting your neck on the line. Even at the top of the online competition the driving doesnt come close to real world standards , theres no prestige for winning online for me...
 
Fraga should have taken a clean 2nd and possibly a win over a dirty win. Bad image for him and for the e-sport.

My biggest concern though is the inability of the stewards - how the hot place did they not catch this and give the penalty during race?! This is like Vettel in f1 all over again - the sports dont need this..
 
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