Lotus to build an MPV...

[Wolfe]

Slight correction there. Vauxhall=Opel=GM=American

That's what BlazinXtreme would want you to think...

GM owns Opel, but that doesn't necessarily mean Detroit has anything to do with Opel's cars -- there's very little Opel/Vauxhall stuff that's american (with the exception of the upcoming Solstice-based Opel GT). On the contrary, "american" cars like the Chevrolet Cobalt are often based on Opel/German-designed platforms with Opel/German parts or engines.

That doesn't mean that the Opel-designed GM stuff is better than the american stuff, by any means (the Opel-based Chevy Cavalier was one of the worst cars ever made), but one thing is for certain. Opel, Vauxhall, and Opel-based american cars are not american, and they certainly aren't British.

 

[ExigeEvan]

That's what BlazinXtreme would want you to think...

GM owns Opel, but that doesn't necessarily mean Detroit has anything to do with Opel's cars -- there's very little Opel/Vauxhall stuff that's american (with the exception of the upcoming Solstice-based Opel GT). On the contrary, "american" cars like the Chevrolet Cobalt are often based on Opel/German-designed platforms with Opel/German parts or engines.

And yet you're trying to say that Vauxhall is German

Vauxhall aren't some cheap manufacturer that siphons cars off the Opel production line. They're equal to Opel, producing pretty much the same cars in their own respective countries.

Calling Vauxhall German is exactly the same as calling Opel British.

 

[Wolfe]

And yet you're trying to say that Vauxhall is German

Vauxhall aren't some cheap manufacturer that siphons cars off the Opel production line. They're equal to Opel, producing pretty much the same cars in their own respective countries.

Calling Vauxhall German is exactly the same as calling Opel British.

Sorry. You're mistaken. Vauxhall is just a different badge on Opel cars.

The General Motors Europe (GME) consists of Opel (Germany), Vauxhall (UK) and Saab (Sweden). The first 2 are especially important because their combined capacity reached nearly 2 million units per year, more than 10 times of Saab.

Under GME’s strategy, Opel and Vauxhall are twins. They sell the same cars in their own badges. Basically, all the cars are designed and engineered in Germany by Opel. The factory of Vauxhall just add production volume to Astra and Vectra. Opel also engineered Saturn L-series based on the Vectra. The same car provides the basis for Saab 9-3.

Opel / Vauxhall is one of the big six car makers in Europe. Like Ford, Renault, PSA and Fiat but unlike Volkswagen, it produces the most common cars in all important segments - Corsa, Astra, Vectra, Omega, plus the MPVs Zafira and Sintra and a few niche models. It was never famous for innovation or build quality.

 

[Dave A]

You're right, they aren't so solid...after posting that, I found this

The gearbox used on the Vanquish has been criticised, it only has problems when your pushing it, it has no problems for general use or driving fast, just read what VBH was rying to do, get the car as fast as possible. Still shouldn't have problems with the box but that box isn't found in any other Aston Models and Ithe gearbox has been rectified since, so yes, Astons are well built, one model had one problem which got sorted, that doesn't mean the company is naff.

Yeah. "Rovers were crap," I said.

Good for you.

I have trouble believing that, but if it's true, fine.

Yes it is true, and if you were someone who did your reasearch you would know that last year it was a Jaguar that was rated as higher quality and a better buy than any BMW, Mercedes, VW, Audi and more.

Yeah, I am talking about build quality.

Right, so you were wrong about our Fords, that's wrong three times now, but I'm still going to go on.

Whoopdeedoo. I don't care who makes the cars, the engineering is what it's all about. There are all sorts of reliable cars built by Americans, including the all-mighty Camry, and Volkswagens don't fall apart on the highway just because they're built in Mexico...

Well apparenty UK built cars are among the best in the world regardless of what company their built for. I've heared from an American VW owner and other Americans that VW's in the US are not that good, they're built in Mexico and they're not that good, our's arn't built in Mexico and they're very good. That tells me that where the car is built, what people actually build it has a large part to say in how well the car is built, so it's relevant to this debate. VW's are just one example, the fact US people think Ford's are crap is another.

Aren't those both very small-volume companies? I assume they're smaller than the likes of Lotus or TVR.

Yes, and that normally whould mean they make more cutbacks on quality than a larger company, but they don't they make cars to a high standard. Another example of wel built British cars.

You don't know your cars very well. Vauxhall = Opel = German. Skoda = VW = German.

Vauxhalls arn't built in Germany, they're built at Ellesmere port, which is, guess where. vauxhall also build other cars, the VX220 for example was a Vauhall VX220 first and an Opel Speedster second, where the design and engineering is done goes both ways. Different modles first appeared under the Vauxhall badge, others under the Opel badge.

Okay, so we'll just ignore the fact that the first few model years of Ford Focuses enjoyed lighting themselves on fire at random occasions.

Not here they didn't, hint, hint.

 

[Famine]

These are a few common problems that your JD Powers people cannot detect because they do not own the car.

Three points.

JDPower are American. So they are yours, not mine.

JDPower don't detect anything. The JDPower survey is conducted by asking people who own 2 year old cars to fill in a very lengthy questionnaire and add any comments they see fit. So JDPower surveys ARE, in fact, people who own the car.

The Lotus Elise is not in the JDPower survey anyway, as I stated, as it's a low volume car and owners reported under the threshold for inclusion.

I was refering to every Ford my family has owned and every Ford car everyone I know has owned from the 1993 model year to the 1998 model year. For these reasons, I shall never own a Ford made in America. Next time I will be more specific.

I owned 1990, 1993 and 1994 Fiestas. They were crap, but that's because I paid crap money for them. They did everything that was asked, and only a couple of things that weren't. If I was in that position again I wouldn't hesistate to buy a Ford Fiesta.


Again, Germany's most reliable car is a Ford, sold also in the US but designed in Europe - though the US market, US built one isn't terribly good, apparently. Kind of makes a mockery of your earlier "a Ford is a Ford is a Ford" statement. You say US ones aren't very good. I can't argue with that because I simply don't know. However, European ones are really rather good these days.

 

[Wolfe]

The gearbox used on the Vanquish has been criticised, it only has problems when your pushing it, it has no problems for general use or driving fast, just read what VBH was rying to do, get the car as fast as possible. Still shouldn't have problems with the box but that box isn't found in any other Aston Models and Ithe gearbox has been rectified since, so yes, Astons are well built, one model had one problem which got sorted, that doesn't mean the company is naff.

Jeez...nothing can be taken as a joke in here. You have to admit, though, that Aston has just recently gotten a lot better about reliability than they used to be.

Good for you.

You're the one who felt the need to explain to me that Rover is dead, after I had already used the past-tense.

Yes it is true, and if you were someone who did your reasearch you would know that last year it was a Jaguar that was rated as higher quality and a better buy than any BMW, Mercedes, VW, Audi and more.

I have done my research, but I prefer to get my info from professional sources, not silly surveys. In other words, long-term tests and used-car evaluations in auto magazines.

And Jaguar has been less-than-stellar -- borderline crap -- for years. They've now started releasing new models that are much better, which is why I said that "the current/soon-to-be-replaced crop of Jags certainly have their problems."

It probably doesn't help that I still feel like it's 2004/2005...time is moving too quickly.

Right, so you were wrong about our Fords, that's wrong three times now, but I'm still going to go on.

Ford is Ford. Ford of Europe makes cars that are more powerful, nicer-looking, handle better, ride nicer, and more fuel-efficient than Detroit does, and they are more reliable, but they're still not very reliable.

Well apparenty UK built cars are among the best in the world regardless of what company their built for. I've heared from an American VW owner and other Americans that VW's in the US are not that good, they're built in Mexico and they're not that good, our's arn't built in Mexico and they're very good. That tells me that where the car is built, what people actually build it has a large part to say in how well the car is built, so it's relevant to this debate. VW's are just one example, the fact US people think Ford's are crap is another.

What I fail to see is how UK-built foreign cars are relevant to the discussion about the reliability of British cars.

Obviously, the fact that Camrys are built in the U.S. means that all GMs, Fords, and Chryslers are top-notch. 👎

Yes, and that normally whould mean they make more cutbacks on quality than a larger company, but they don't they make cars to a high standard. Another example of wel built British cars.

I would assume the opposite. That a large company would make more cutbacks on quality than a smaller company. The only exception is TVR, but they're in the process of cleaning up their act, ever since they were bought by that Russian kid.

Vauxhalls arn't built in Germany, they're built at Ellesmere port, which is, guess where. vauxhall also build other cars, the VX220 for example was a Vauhall VX220 first and an Opel Speedster second, where the design and engineering is done goes both ways. Different modles first appeared under the Vauxhall badge, others under the Opel badge.

That doesn't mean that Vauxhalls are British. Just because a McDonald's cheeseburger is made in Hong Kong doesn't mean the McDonald's cheeseburger is a Chinese delicacy. Opel/Vauxhall cars are almost all German designs, with the exception of the upcoming Opel GT, and the VX220/Speedster, which was not a Vauxhall design, but a Lotus one.

Not here they didn't, hint, hint.

That's pretty funny, then, that the american factories managed to #$*^ it up so badly. Anyway, the point I have been trying to make is not that Ford Europe cars are as poorly-built as Ford usa ones are, but that they are just poorly built compared to their competitors, like Ford usa.

Again, Germany's most reliable car is a Ford, sold also in the US but designed in Europe - though the US market, US built one isn't terribly good, apparently. Kind of makes a mockery of your earlier "a Ford is a Ford is a Ford" statement. You say US ones aren't very good. I can't argue with that because I simply don't know. However, European ones are really rather good these days.

Hey now, don't pick on eliseracer for something I said.

However, European ones are really rather good these days.

If they have been working hard on improving their quality in the last few years, like Ford usa has, you should have said so. I could believe that. You guys make it sound like Ford Europe has been excellent ever since its inception.

 

[Famine]

Hey now, don't pick on eliseracer for something I said.

Quite right. Apologies.

Now you bend over and take it in his place!

*cackles*

If they have been working hard on improving their quality in the last few years, like Ford usa has, you should have said so. I could believe that. You guys make it sound like Ford Europe has been excellent ever since its inception.

Nah - they used to be called "Dagenham Dustbins", with the vans referred to, in an "amusing" bit of rhyme, "Four wheels and a board". They were certainly cheap'n'cheerful, mass-market crap.

But now customers won't put up with reliability issues, even from the margin manufacturers (though TVR are still awful). The mass market cars have been forced, by the Japanese manufacturers, to pull their socks up, or find themselves in a position where they don't sell cars because Honda/Toyota/Mazda do something the same size, cheaper, more reliably, more interesting and cheaper to run. It's now almost impossible to find a manufacturer in Europe where, even including the 10 year old used vehicles, there are more than 40 mechanical repairs per 100 cars per year (though a couple of manufacturers do still get stung by their reticence to get with the times - their recent efforts are much better). Thinking about this, it's quite staggering. It means even the most unreliable cars on the market won't, on average, see the hands of a mechanic outside service schedule more than 4 times a DECADE. If that's unreliable, I'd hate to see what reliable is (okay, Mazda. 10.7 claims per 100 cars, including decade-old used ones. That's one trip outside service schedule every tenth of a century).


The Focus - the American version of which you point out spontaneously combusts - averaged no faults at all for 3 year old cars in the German equivalent of the MoT (it's a sort of yearly roadworthiness check, the first one conducted at 3 years of age), the first time any car has managed this feat. I find this quite bizarre as there's nothing fundamentally different between the US and EU cars...

And of course Ford Europe made the GT40 and RS200. Pltpltpltpltplt!

 

[Wolfe]

Nah - they used to be called "Dagenham Dustbins", with the vans referred to, in an "amusing" bit of rhyme, "Four wheels and a board". They were certainly cheap'n'cheerful, mass-market crap.

But now customers won't put up with reliability issues, even from the margin manufacturers (though TVR are still awful). The mass market cars have been forced, by the Japanese manufacturers, to pull their socks up, or find themselves in a position where they don't sell cars because Honda/Toyota/Mazda do something the same size, cheaper, more reliably, more interesting and cheaper to run. It's now almost impossible to find a manufacturer in Europe where, even including the 10 year old used vehicles, there are more than 40 mechanical repairs per 100 cars per year (though a couple of manufacturers do still get stung by their reticence to get with the times - their recent efforts are much better). Thinking about this, it's quite staggering. It means even the most unreliable cars on the market won't, on average, see the hands of a mechanic outside service schedule more than 4 times a DECADE. If that's unreliable, I'd hate to see what reliable is (okay, Mazda. 10.7 claims per 100 cars, including decade-old used ones. That's one trip outside service schedule every tenth of a century).

Alright, so a Ford was a Ford was a Ford.

Still, how reliable are Ford Europe cars compared to the Japanese competition, other than Mazda?

The Focus - the American version of which you point out spontaneously combusts - averaged no faults at all for 3 year old cars in the German equivalent of the MoT (it's a sort of yearly roadworthiness check, the first one conducted at 3 years of age), the first time any car has managed this feat. I find this quite bizarre as there's nothing fundamentally different between the US and EU cars...

I also find that strange...as I said before, it's comical how @#$&ed up the us version is compared to the UK one.

And of course Ford Europe made the GT40 and RS200. Pltpltpltpltplt!

Hey, I never said that I hated Ford Europe's cars, or that I hated British cars. In fact, pretty much every single sporty British car that has ever been made is cool as far as I'm concerned. I just brought up the stereotype (which had been true for many, many years, as eliseracer said, and as you just described) of British cars falling apart on the motorway (not to mention the exploits of Lucas, "the Prince of Darkness" ), and I got tackled with the ferocity of several rabid wolverines.

 

[eliseracer]

JDPower are American. So they are yours, not mine.

They are not mine, I am not American.

JDPower don't detect anything. The JDPower survey is conducted by asking people who own 2 year old cars to fill in a very lengthy questionnaire and add any comments they see fit. So JDPower surveys ARE, in fact, people who own the car.

The Lotus Elise is not in the JDPower survey anyway, as I stated, as it's a low volume car and owners reported under the threshold for inclusion.

[/color][/b]

I didn't say they were in the survey.

But I did learn something new today. Thank you.

Vauxhalls arn't built in Germany, they're built at Ellesmere port, which is, guess where. vauxhall also build other cars, the VX220 for example was a Vauhall VX220 first and an Opel Speedster second, where the design and engineering is done goes both ways. Different modles first appeared under the Vauxhall badge, others under the Opel badge.

Vauxhall did not build the VX220 or the Opel Speedster. Other than the power supply, the badge and the cash support, Vaux/Opel/GM did not do a single thing in the development, assembly or success of the VX/Speedster line.

They are identical cars with different badging, regardless of chronology. The same with the rest of the line.

 

[Dave A]

Jeez...nothing can be taken as a joke in here. You have to admit, though, that Aston has just recently gotten a lot better about reliability than they used to be.

I missed the punchline, no probs.

You're the one who felt the need to explain to me that Rover is dead, after I had already used the past-tense.

Well good for me then.

I have done my research, but I prefer to get my info from professional sources, not silly surveys. In other words, long-term tests and used-car evaluations in auto magazines.

Right, so do we, but the TopGear JD Power survey is one of the most accurate sources of info you can find, ever. It's info straight from the owners of the cars, people who've owned the cars longer than long term tests in a car magazine. Also remeber, all your car mags won't be doing tests on cars built in England. Ours do, naturally, and ours say otherwise.

And Jaguar has been less-than-stellar -- borderline crap -- for years. They've now started releasing new models that are much better, which is why I said that "the current/soon-to-be-replaced crop of Jags certainly have their problems."

The current lineup of Jag's is well above average, and the lineup before that. Last years S-Type is rated as better than any Merc, BMW or Audi to own, honestly. It's classed as a superb car, it's built like a brick **** house, it's trimmed very well, it's performance is good. It's a quality car. The newest XJ is quite something, the one before it was still held in high esteem, the X-Type isn't a bad car, people don't like it because they see it as a Mondeo in drag, and a Jag should be a Jag, but it's still well built, solid, well trimmed ect. We don't have any problems with Jags, we haven't had any for a long time.

It probably doesn't help that I still feel like it's 2004/2005...time is moving too quickly.

Don't we all, and isn't it just.

Ford is Ford. Ford of Europe makes cars that are more powerful, nicer-looking, handle better, ride nicer, and more fuel-efficient than Detroit does, and they are more reliable, but they're still not very reliable.

Yes they are, have you owned or driven a Ford Europe car, or several Ford Europe cars for that matter to be able to give an honest opinion of the model range ni general?

What I fail to see is how UK-built foreign cars are relevant to the discussion about the reliability of British cars.

If they're built in Britain, they're being built by the same type of bloke who builds the Jag's, Vauxhall's, Aston's ect, they're British built cars. A VW built in Britain is better quality than a VW built in Mexico, it's very much applicable to this discussion.

I would assume the opposite. That a large company would make more cutbacks on quality than a smaller company. The only exception is TVR, but they're in the process of cleaning up their act, ever since they were bought by that Russian kid.

Fair point, but the way I see it, a smaller company can't afford to do all the testing a larger company does. I guess unless anyone who has worked for a large and small company can come in here, we'll have to say good points on both sides for this one and leave it there or we could just specualte the debate well off track.

That doesn't mean that Vauxhalls are British. Just because a McDonald's cheeseburger is made in Hong Kong doesn't mean the McDonald's cheeseburger is a Chinese delicacy. Opel/Vauxhall cars are almost all German designs, with the exception of the upcoming Opel GT, and the VX220/Speedster, which was not a Vauxhall design, but a Lotus one.

I said the VX220's was a Vauxhall before it was a an Opel, not that Vauxhall designed the car from the ground up, though re-reading my comment where I put "the design and engineering goes both ways" made it sound a lot like thats what I meant, I didn't mean that part with referrence to the VX220 in specifically, but genreally. And yes, Vauxhall is a British company, it's a British marquee, a British badge, the company was started in Britian, the company is still based in Britain, Vauxhall are British just like SEAT are Spanish. Being owned by another comany doesn't change where that company was formed or is based. Also some Opels are built at Eleesmere port as well.

That's pretty funny, then, that the american factories managed to #$*^ it up so badly. Anyway, the point I have been trying to make is not that Ford Europe cars are as poorly-built as Ford usa ones are, but that they are just poorly built compared to their competitors, like Ford usa.

But they arn't, European Fords are well built, the Mondeo has recieved A LOT of praise, so has the Focus old and new, the Fiesta I don't know too much about, I find the car boring so I don't read about it , Famine will know more on that. The Ford Transit is the widest used Van, it's reliability is superb, the Ford Ka has no build quality issues, it's a nicely packaged car. Not m kind of car, but it's well built ect. Fords are well built, theres no big gulf between Fords and Audi's, put it that way. Audi's are more prestige so some people see tham as being better quality by the badge, but they're not, theres not many cars can match the current Mondeo for it's market class apparently.

If they have been working hard on improving their quality in the last few years, like Ford usa has, you should have said so. I could believe that. You guys make it sound like Ford Europe has been excellent ever since its inception.

Nope, I don't think any car company has in the world, the further back you go, the general trend is worse quality, worse reliability, poorer fitted trim ect regardless of where the car is from. What you need to do is compare cars from their repective time periods to gauge how the average quality was at that time and what thoes companies actually were. Ford Europe were building average cars up until the mid-late 90's, then they started to improve to a good solid brand.

 

[Famine]

I am not American.

Why not, goddammit?

Still, how reliable are Ford Europe cars compared to the Japanese competition, other than Mazda?

Not bad.

Considering that the 10-year bracket includes the achey-breaky Fiesta and the last, and most certainly worst, of the Ford Escorts, both of which sold in colossal numbers, their 36.4/100 showing, while below industry average, isn't that bad. Removing these relics from the list (which will happen in the next 3 years) will see Ford's showing radically improve - that said, so will a couple of other manufacturers, as the chaff is thrown out. And remember, 36.4/100 is 3.64 visits to the mechanic outside service schedule per car per decade.

JDPower, which solely rates 2 year old cars but makes no clear reliability distinction (well... if you buy it it does. The free version available to all isn't so detailed) puts Ford at above industry average for customer satisfaction, with a rating of 78.9% - close to VW's 79.1% and ahead of Mercedes' 77.3% (and, since you asked about Japanese cars, Mitsubishi at 78.1% and Suzuki at 78.0%. Nissan, Daihatsu and Subaru were just ahead on 80.1% and 80.3% (tied), with Lexus, Honda, Toyota and Mazda all sitting in the top 7).


There is no reason why anyone buying a new Ford Fiesta, Focus or Mondeo in particular (the Ka is still based on the 1989 Fiesta though because it's so basic, there isn't much to go wrong - it placed quite highly on the What Car? reliability survey), should worry about reliability. Certainly they should worry less than a Mercedes M-class buyer...

 

[eliseracer]

Back on track.

Here are some more renderings of the AVX.


Note the date of the drawing.


And this one was not released part of the AVX platform, meaning that it is possible that it is a prospective future Lotus SUV-segment model. Think Cayenne's popularity.

Quick Q': when is the Geneva show?

 

[Wolfe]

Right, so do we, but the TopGear JD Power survey is one of the most accurate sources of info you can find, ever. It's info straight from the owners of the cars, people who've owned the cars longer than long term tests in a car magazine. Also remeber, all your car mags won't be doing tests on cars built in England. Ours do, naturally, and ours say otherwise.

The only problem there, IMO, is that owners won't necessarily be impartial in their surveys, and some people may overlook (or even forget to mention) certain problems while others list every single tiny problem because they dislike the car.

Our car mags do drive cars that were probably built in England occasionally ...they just don't (and can't) add them to their long-term test fleets.

Yes they are, have you owned or driven a Ford Europe car, or several Ford Europe cars for that matter to be able to give an honest opinion of the model range ni general?

I have driven and am familiar with a Focus that is owned by someone I know, and I know how to read (as in, I've heard about these cars from Brits in various forums)...unless you're asking me to validate my claim that Ford Europe cars are just better than most of the Detroit ones...that's just my opinion.

If they're built in Britain, they're being built by the same type of bloke who builds the Jag's, Vauxhall's, Aston's ect, they're British built cars. A VW built in Britain is better quality than a VW built in Mexico, it's very much applicable to this discussion.

That's not it, though. The builders may all be British but I'm talking about the engineering, which is still the largest factor (certainly, Mexican-built VWs haven't suffered enough to ruin or even tarnish VW's "built solid" reputation on this side of the pond. On the other hand, american-built Focuses have suffered enough, apparently).

I said the VX220's was a Vauxhall before it was a an Opel, not that Vauxhall designed the car from the ground up, though re-reading my comment where I put "the design and engineering goes both ways" made it sound a lot like thats what I meant, I didn't mean that part with referrence to the VX220 in specifically, but genreally. And yes, Vauxhall is a British company, it's a British marquee, a British badge, the company was started in Britian, the company is still based in Britain, Vauxhall are British just like SEAT are Spanish. Being owned by another comany doesn't change where that company was formed or is based. Also some Opels are built at Eleesmere port as well.

Fair enough, and that isn't what I meant when I said "Vauxhalls aren't British." I was talking about the cars, the design and engineering behind them. As we all know, SEATs are just VWs...

The current lineup of Jag's is well above average, and the lineup before that. Last years S-Type is rated as better than any Merc, BMW or Audi to own, honestly. It's classed as a superb car, it's built like a brick **** house, it's trimmed very well, it's performance is good. It's a quality car. The newest XJ is quite something, the one before it was still held in high esteem, the X-Type isn't a bad car, people don't like it because they see it as a Mondeo in drag, and a Jag should be a Jag, but it's still well built, solid, well trimmed ect. We don't have any problems with Jags, we haven't had any for a long time.

But they arn't, European Fords are well built, the Mondeo has recieved A LOT of praise, so has the Focus old and new, the Fiesta I don't know too much about, I find the car boring so I don't read about it , Famine will know more on that. The Ford Transit is the widest used Van, it's reliability is superb, the Ford Ka has no build quality issues, it's a nicely packaged car. Not m kind of car, but it's well built ect. Fords are well built, theres no big gulf between Fords and Audi's, put it that way. Audi's are more prestige so some people see tham as being better quality by the badge, but they're not, theres not many cars can match the current Mondeo for it's market class apparently.

See, all of this is strange to me, because you and Famine are the first Brits that have ever told me that UK Fords and Jags are well-built cars. It's always a "yeah yeah, they're all rubbish. But we love 'em anyway" sort of deal. JC, Hammond, and May have said similar things of British cars, too. Well, moreso May and JC...Hammond just likes German cars.

 

[Dave A]

Well for the sake of carrying on a debate that will only go in circles from here on, let's get back to the Lotus VVH platform.

 

[Appie]

wonder if it will come in production

 

[Dave A]

This won't, it's a demonstration car built for one thing, to how people how versatile the VVH platform is so other companies will start to show an interest in it.

eliseracer, the show starts Feb 28th and ends March 1st.

 

[Layzie]

Hey, what's going on this MPV

 

[ExigeEvan]

I certainly wouldn't say it was much of a looker but it's the engineering that's important with this concept.

 

[mizx]

Lotus Press Release

http://www.seriouswheels.com/top-2006-Lotus-APX.htm

 

[eliseracer]

Now sell sell sell!

That's a Cayenne beater, right there.

 

[Blackbird.]

Not bad from behind... but where's the front image? I mean I always have this thing with cars that one angle looks good then the other is just real bad.

EDIT: Oh nevermind there's the front images, not bad.