Lotus to build an MPV...

[Raghavan]

Eww, that's not very light weight.

 

[zoxxy]

Noooo! Why, Oh Why?!

 

[eliseracer]

Read the thread, that's why. Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez this is getting lame.

 

[zoxxy]

Read the thread, that's why. Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez this is getting lame.

That's not what I meant.

 

[eliseracer]

So you're saying that Lotus should not promote their technology and capability to other companies and remain a small, poor quality specialty manufacturer in the woods of England, on the verge of bankruptcy without any company to back them?

That would be smart, would it not?

 

[Keke_Jordan]

I think he just means the minivan. . .

 

[Dave A]

It's a demo car, if they want to show how versatile the platform is I can't see a better type car to use, your going from small mid-engined sportscar to front engined MPV, that's a versatile platform. And if they are going to succeed with this, they're going to be getting asked to build all manner of different car's, if they happen to get asked to build an MPV inthe future, you bet they'll build it.

 

[Wolfe]

....and remain a small, poor quality specialty manufacturer....

Poor quality??

I think not...

 

[eliseracer]

Then you don't know Lotus.

Build quality is terrible. The rattles, the loose everything, the random noises and problems. Ask anyone who has owned and old Lotus will tell you that they are a hassle. Unfortunately the same can be said for the newer cars, even a brand new Elise.

 

[Wolfe]

Then you don't know Lotus.

Build quality is terrible. The rattles, the loose everything, the random noises and problems. Ask anyone who has owned and old Lotus will tell you that they are a hassle. Unfortunately the same can be said for the newer cars, even a brand new Elise.

Oh, you mean the whole british car thing. Yeah, I was talking more along the lines of performance engineering -- you know, suspension tuning, chassis design, all of that good stuff. I wasn't thinking of reliability.

 

[eliseracer]

Build quality=the ****s
Engineering quality=world leading

 

[Dave A]

Oh, you mean the whole british car thing. Yeah, I was talking more along the lines of performance engineering -- you know, suspension tuning, chassis design, all of that good stuff. I wasn't thinking of reliability.

The whole British car thing, what the hell are you on about. We have some of the finest built auto's ever, including imo the finest with Aston Martin. British cars arn't badly built, Lotus' are and TVR's could be a lot better with the trim fittings, but generally there nothing wrong wth British cars. Where do you people get these mad idea's.

 

[ExigeEvan]

The whole British car thing, what the hell are you on about. We have some of the finest built auto's ever, including imo the finest with Aston Martin. British cars arn't badly built, Lotus' are and TVR's could be a lot better with the trim fittings, but generally there nothing wrong wth British cars. Where do you people get these mad idea's.

We also do a very good job putting other people's cars together. Namely Nissan, Toyota and Honda.

 

[gibus]

The whole British car thing, what the hell are you on about. We have some of the finest built auto's ever, including imo the finest with Aston Martin. British cars arn't badly built, Lotus' are and TVR's could be a lot better with the trim fittings, but generally there nothing wrong wth British cars. Where do you people get these mad idea's.

Aston Martins are fine cars, indeed, but they are nowhere as solid as a good volkswagen.. same for jags and a couple of brands which have led to a generalisation, which is untrue for some bramds, that british cars are not as solid as most german cars. But they are also more exclusive british cars than there are in german cars per ratio..

if you know what i'm saying.. i've got a headache and university essays to write.. so it might not be understandable!

 

[wing_0]

Hahahahahahahaha... Wonder what it will be. Will I laugh because it's pathetic, or because it beats sports cars by handling?

 

[ExigeEvan]

Aston Martins are fine cars, indeed, but they are nowhere as solid as a good volkswagen.. same for jags and a couple of brands which have led to a generalisation, which is untrue for some bramds, that british cars are not as solid as most german cars. But they are also more exclusive british cars than there are in german cars per ratio..

if you know what i'm saying.. i've got a headache and university essays to write.. so it might not be understandable!

What gets to me the most is that American cars are much worse, even on a mass produced scale. Nearly ever American made car that has come over to the UK has been criticised for its interior materials.

It's also quite unfair comparing UK cars to German cars and then making the Brit cars the butt of jokes. No-one makes interiors aswell as the Germans, even the Japanese don't (though their engine build is undoubtedly superior).

 

[eliseracer]

English cars have built up that reputation through the early days of car racing, then the companies started to produce cars with similar mindset of racing cars, then through the 70s and 80s, they were not well made. Ask anyone with an old TR6 or something, they are always falling apart.

Colin Chapman said that if it still drives after it has crossed the finish line, it's too heavy. This translated to poorer than normal build-quality in his motorcars and it still is around today. Ask any proper Elise owner and they'll say if you don't want the unexpected rattle or slight mechanical ailing, don't get an Elise. It's a problem, and it is somehting that is expensive for the consumer to fix. That's what has been the glory of Lotus over the years, the price has been level to something many people can afford.

If an Elise had Porsche-like build quality and was priced with a 20% increase, they wouldn't sell. There's an amazing charm that comes with an Elise, you can outbrake, outhandle and outaccelerate 99% of the cars you'll see on the road in any given month, all for very cheap.

It's the same thing with Honda Civic generalisations. They have a reputation for a reason. It was started, now you have to live with it.

 

[xcsti]

I remember reading a while ago that in the sixties the british government allowed gasket companies to produce far cheaper and lower quality gaskets and that his was the cause of the general reliability problems that ensued.

There are good cars and bad cars that come from every region. For every honda there is a diahatsu (daihatsu is japanese right?). For every corvette there are three cavaliers,

 

[Dave A]

There are good cars and bad cars that come from every region.

Exactley right.

 

[Wolfe]

The whole British car thing, what the hell are you on about. We have some of the finest built auto's ever, including imo the finest with Aston Martin. British cars arn't badly built, Lotus' are and TVR's could be a lot better with the trim fittings, but generally there nothing wrong wth British cars. Where do you people get these mad idea's.

As you said, Lotuses and TVR's are badly built, Rovers were crap, the current/soon-to-be-replaced crop of Jags certainly have their problems, and a Ford is a Ford is a Ford.

Astons are really the only solid British marque.

What gets to me the most is that American cars are much worse, even on a mass produced scale. Nearly ever American made car that has come over to the UK has been criticised for its interior materials.

American cars are terrible. That doesn't mean it's unfair for British cars to be picked on. Every car from every region gets picked on by somebody for some reason or another.

 

[Dave A]

No Aston's arn't, Rover doesn't exist anymore. I don't know where you get your info but British built Jag's do not have problems, they're fine, the X-Type is as fine as a Mondeo, which is well built, and the proper Jag's are all well built too. Noble's are well built, I haven't heard of any build quality issues regarding Marcos, Vauxhall's, although people love to hate them it's not because of the cuilt quality, they are well built. Ford's, again well built, you can't use the, it's still a Ford argument because we discussing built quality not posability or what car brands you like or not. I could go on, but theres plenty of cars here that are very well built, and also like ExigeExcel said, we do a good job of building other companies car's too. I don't know how high quality you expect all cars to be built, but if you think any car like a TVR is going to be built like a Merc S class you need to revise you thinking.

 

[eliseracer]

No Aston's arn't, Rover doesn't exist anymore. I don't know where you get your info but British built Jag's do not have problems, they're fine, the X-Type is as fine as a Mondeo, which is well built, and the proper Jag's are all well built too. Noble's are well built, I haven't heard of any build quality issues regarding Marcos, Vauxhall's, although people love to hate them it's not because of the cuilt quality, they are well built. Ford's, again well built, you can't use the, it's still a Ford argument because we discussing built quality not posability or what car brands you like or not. I could go on, but theres plenty of cars here that are very well built, and also like ExigeExcel said, we do a good job of building other companies car's too. I don't know how high quality you expect all cars to be built, but if you think any car like a TVR is going to be built like a Merc S class you need to revise you thinking.

Have you ever owned a Ford? Didn't think so.

They are the worst cars ever. And this isn't build quality here, it's not like htey assembled their transmissions to go kaput before 100,000 miles.

It's not a case of "Like Ford or not", pretty much every case of Ford ownership I have personally seen has gone sour far too early.

 

[Dave A]

Yep, I've been in a lot of them too. I think you may be getting Ford Europe and Ford USA confused. Our Fords arn't built in the US and shipped over you know, barring the Mustang. Ford Europe have very few build quality issues, they never get slated for poor reliability (barring the Escort Cossie's) and their trim doesn't fall apart. I can't state for the Fords you guys get because I've never been in one of thoes.

 

[Famine]

Have you ever owned a Ford? Didn't think so.

Yes. Three.

They are the worst cars ever. And this isn't build quality here, it's not like htey assembled their transmissions to go kaput before 100,000 miles.

It's not a case of "Like Ford or not", pretty much every case of Ford ownership I have personally seen has gone sour far too early.

Most reliable car sold in Germany? Take a guess.

british cars are not as solid as most german cars

What Car reliability survey 2005:
5 Highest British cars:
3. Rover 25 (yes, I'm quite stunned too)
10. Ford Ka
13. Vauxhall Corsa
14. Vauxhall Astra
16. Land Rover Discovery

(5 Highest British-built cars: )
(2. Honda Civic)
(3. Rover 25)
(6. Nissan Micra)
(7. Nissan Primera)
(10. Ford Ka)

5 Highest German cars:
8. Mercedes CLK
15. BMW 3-series Compact
20. Audi A3
21. Mercedes C-Class
22. BMW Z3

 

[Dave A]

And while I'm having a nice hot shower, Famine finds the facts . And I have to say, Famines facts are very correct.

Also of note, TopGear JD Power survey had the Jaguar XJ - 12th which was the highest ranked British car, with not a singe German car infront of it, only Japanese ones and a Skoda. Infact, the highest ranked German car is the BMW 3 series at 30th. That's not knocking German cars, because in the JD Power survey anything under 60th can be consideded good. The highest ranked American car is 73rd, the Chrysler PT Cruiser.

 

[eliseracer]

The US market Fords are what I was refering to, just reasserting the original Ford bashing.

I'm not going to get involved in this argument, but just restate my orginal point: get those same surveys and statistics from 1981, 1977 and 1969. Not the same story, now is it.

And this is getting off-topic, and the bottom line is Lotus's still are not reliable. The VVH, possibly new ownership and potential Korean assembly might change that for the better though.

 

[Famine]

The US market Fords are what I was refering to, just reasserting the original Ford bashing.

The most reliable car in Germany is sold on the US market, though made and developed in Europe. By Ford.

I'm not going to get involved in this argument, but just restate my orginal point: get those same surveys and statistics from 1981, 1977 and 1969. Not the same story, now is it.

Why would it be? You said that Fords "are the worst cars ever" - present tense. This is not borne out by current trends and statistics. Perhaps if you were only referring to old Fords you should have said so.

And this is getting off-topic, and the bottom line is Lotus's still are not reliable.

Really?

Lotus only produce one car at the moment - the Elise (and its variants). It comes with the Toyota VVT-i 1.8 engine and, for reliability, is dead level with the Audi TT (though as a low volume manufacturer it doesn't generally appear on large scale surveys like JDPower) in owners' reviews. Most of the Elise's days off the road are caused by owners stacking it - whereas most of the TT's are caused by melting 1.8Ts and exploding DSG 'boxes.


It is becoming VERY hard to find a truely unreliable car these days. The Landies still fall apart occasionally, and the French Collection have their own foibles, but most manufacturers are let down by dealers - Alfa Romeo, FIAT and Renault in particular. Poor aftersales care = low customer satisfaction ratings.

In fact, as the rest of the industry has dragged itself up to the current level, Mercedes-Benz in particular are finding that they're no longer field-leaders and tend to rank only as highly as Ford/Vauxhall, who produce a factor more cars than they do. The fact that Ford/Vauxhall can just stamp out cars by the bucketful and STILL have them rated as highly as - if not higher than - "prestige marques" is a testament to their efforts.

 

[eliseracer]

Why would it be? You said that Fords "are the worst cars ever" - present tense. This is not borne out by current trends and statistics. Perhaps if you were only referring to old Fords you should have said so.

I am sorry, sir...

I was refering to every Ford my family has owned and every Ford car everyone I know has owned from the 1993 model year to the 1998 model year. For these reasons, I shall never own a Ford made in America. Next time I will be more specific.

Really?

Lotus only produce one car at the moment - the Elise (and its variants). It comes with the Toyota VVT-i 1.8 engine and, for reliability, is dead level with the Audi TT (though as a low volume manufacturer it doesn't generally appear on large scale surveys like JDPower) in owners' reviews. Most of the Elise's days off the road are caused by owners stacking it - whereas most of the TT's are caused by melting 1.8Ts and exploding DSG 'boxes.

Yes, really.

Here are a few Elise problems I can think of. These occur on brand new 2005 or sometimes 2006 cars. The window mechanism malfunctions, which makes the window unable to go completely up, go up at all, and at least one case in my memory, shatter the window entirely, window or door mechanism actually rattling because of loose installation or other lose bits, ceiling fabric comes lose on both stock cloth-top and optional hardtop, the infamous crooked or misaligned headlights, radio is full of glitches, gearchange issues (this is a big section, the gearshift shaft itself was recalled because there were cases I had seen reported where the actual shifter completely broke, like the throttle on a motorboat in comedies), A/C doesn't work whatsoever on some cars, exhaust not installed properly so it rattles, the alarm system goes whacko (locking people in or out, etc).

These are a few common problems that your JD Powers people cannot detect because they do not own the car. They are not caused by abuse on road or track, they are not caused by outsourced parts or assembly either.

 

[Wolfe]

No Aston's arn't,

You're right, they aren't so solid...after posting that, I found this

Having said all that there is a modern supercar that acts like an “old” supercar in terms of being temperamental and badly behaved. I’m referring to the Aston Martin Vanquish S, which broke down on me twice while I was attempting to hit its claimed top speed of 200mph plus.

With a film crew recording the events for Five’s Fifth Gear show, I slid into the hot seat, fired the 6 litre V12 into action, popped it into first gear, put some left-hand lock on and gave it a welly-load of throttle. As I gave a cheeky wink to the camera the only thing to fly off was the drive belt. Not quite the tyre-screeching, tail-sliding action we were expecting.

I do this manoeuvre every day in my £27,000 Honda S2000, but for some reason Aston’s £177,000 Vanquish S threw a hissy fit. And so in flew the Aston Martin maintenance squad.

Yes, two professional spanner-men were dispatched to my rescue in a helicopter. Now that’s what I call service. If I’d had a similar experience in an MGF I’d still be on a breakdown truck.

Aston’s overall-clad chaps diagnosed a “random stone” had hit the belt, so they put it back on and departed skywards. And so, cameras rolling, I repeated my own take-off, only for the problem to repeat itself. Random stone my . . .

Back came the chopper, and this time we all deduced that the car simply wasn’t designed to be driven like that — the engine was actually twisting in the bay and throwing the belt as I powered away on full lock. I’ve done it in Ferraris, Lambos, Porsches and, heaven forbid, even TVRs without there being a problem.

Rover doesn't exist anymore.

Yeah. "Rovers were crap," I said.

I don't know where you get your info but British built Jag's do not have problems, they're fine, the X-Type is as fine as a Mondeo, which is well built, and the proper Jag's are all well built too.

I have trouble believing that, but if it's true, fine.

Ford's, again well built, you can't use the, it's still a Ford argument because we discussing built quality not posability or what car brands you like or not.

Yeah, I am talking about build quality.

I could go on, but theres plenty of cars here that are very well built, and also like ExigeExcel said, we do a good job of building other companies car's too.

Whoopdeedoo. I don't care who makes the cars, the engineering is what it's all about. There are all sorts of reliable cars built by Americans, including the all-mighty Camry, and Volkswagens don't fall apart on the highway just because they're built in Mexico...

Noble's are well built.....I haven't heard of any build quality issues regarding Marcos....

Aren't those both very small-volume companies? I assume they're smaller than the likes of Lotus or TVR.

I haven't heard of any build quality issues regarding Marcos, Vauxhall's, although people love to hate them it's not because of the cuilt quality, they are well built......with not a singe German car infront of it, only Japanese ones and a Skoda.....

You don't know your cars very well. Vauxhall = Opel = German. Skoda = VW = German.

Ford Europe have very few build quality issues, they never get slated for poor reliability (barring the Escort Cossie's) and their trim doesn't fall apart.

Okay, so we'll just ignore the fact that the first few model years of Ford Focuses enjoyed lighting themselves on fire at random occasions.

 

[ExigeEvan]

You don't know your cars very well. Vauxhall = Opel = German. Skoda = VW = German.

Slight correction there. Vauxhall=Opel=GM=American