LSD Settings: How they really work in GT5?

[Adrenaline]

I have no issue with realistic tuning.
But realistic tuning doesn't win races in this game.
If you can take pride in losing races based on the premise that your tune is realistic, then that's great. It doesn't effect me and I won't say a word to you about it.
But I prefer to win races, by squeezing every last tenth out of a car.

As for Torque Splits and real life... I never once mentioned real life, or what's 'better' or 'worse' or how or why you should do things. I explained my approach to tuning them in game, followed by my results of doing so. No more, no less. You're reading too far into things.

If you want to have a 'default is best' argument, then by all means, explain why 0 camber and rear toe of .20 on every car in game is the best. If default settings are always the best, then please, stop tuning cars, clearly you're only making them worse, because by noobsters logic, default settings define how a car should be tuned and anyone who wanders from the holy path of noobster shall be struck down by his greatness.

As for 'legal shortcuts' they're legal, you understand what that word means don't you? If you want to be some kind of anal retentive driver, who never hops a curb, enjoy losing every race you join. This is a game, maybe not to you, but it is to me. It's as simple as minimizing and maximizing. Finding and pushing every limit that exists. When I race, I try to abide by the standards that WRS has laid out. "Two(2) wheels on or vertically in line with the track at all times. All hard surfaces are considered track." If you think you're so much better than everyone else, because you've created your own high and mighty standards of how people are suppose to play this game, then forgive me for not abiding by your rules.

If cutting the concrete corner of Deep Forest is what you consider an exploit, then you can understand why I have a hard time taking anything you say seriously.

 

[dr_slump]

I read the GT5 APEX booklet and there is explained quite a lot about cars (basics, but gives me a good overview for people that aren't into cars a lot) so I know what a 1 way diff is, but not how it really works or so. The tuning guide written by Scaff writes initial 5 or 60 means the diff is either open or locked... this is wrong then?

Forget the APEX book!
5 is almost open, 60 almost locked
Scaff's tuning guid is great! S.8 LSD or GT4:

1-way LSD
The 1-way LSD operates only under acceleration and is widely used on front wheel drive cars. While it is not adjustable in any way it is a good choice for a front wheel drive car when tuning, and in most cases I would recommend fitting one instead of the Fully Customisable LSD.

That means that decel is 0 (open), initial and accel are higher. It's something like 10?/40?/0(5). (Don't know the exact initial, accel number)

 

[Motor City Hami]

Would you say the same about LSD? That with racing tyres you need lower LSD values or values near to the lowest?

QUOTE]

I think it has less to do with tires and more to do with power. Does your car magically become unbalanced, right rear wheel to left rear wheel by changing to stickier tires? I don't think so. So, I believe that the accel and decel numbers will be very similar whether you are on sport tires or racing tires. Initial Torque is a different story and has more to do with higher hp or lower hp.

 

[Basilea]

Forget the APEX book!
5 is almost open, 60 almost locked
Scaff's tuning guid is great! S.8 LSD or GT4:
That means that decel is 0 (open), initial and accel are higher. It's something like 10?/40?/0(5). (Don't know the exact initial, accel number)

I read both Scaffs guide (which has the Toe setting the wrong way) and the apex book, it says about the same... but in Scaffs guide it's more detailed! And it says: "Setting the initial value to 5 will result in the LSD acting a "open" differential and a setting of 60 will result in the LSD acting as a "locked" differential. Either of these values (5 or 60) will make the Accel and Decel settings redundant as the differential is now either open or locked"

 

[Adrenaline]

in Scaffs guide it's more detailed! And it says: "Setting the initial value to 5 will result in the LSD acting a "open" differential and a setting of 60 will result in the LSD acting as a "locked" differential. Either of these values (5 or 60) will make the Accel and Decel settings redundant as the differential is now either open or locked"

I think that's easy to disprove. Take any car of your choice to the track, set rear LSD to 5/x/x and go spin some tires. Both will still leave tread marks.

 

[Basilea]

I think that's easy to disprove. Take any car of your choice to the track, set rear LSD to 5/x/x and go spin some tires. Both will still leave tread marks.

Ok that's what I thought!

But in general I now found out that I was looking far too much or almost only on wheelspin when tuning the LSD and completely forgot about everything around. The car feels just bad with 5/5/5 front and back... it's unstable and understeers more (?) and has longer braking zones...

 

[Adrenaline]

Starting with 10/10/10 is better in the non extreme cases.
5/5/5 is reserved for the Minolta, Zonda R and cars of that nature.

*For clarification, these are only 'starting points' in which to begin your tuning for a learning experience. They are only recommendations from myself and I claim no knowledge nor care of how they work or apply in the real world. Take my advice at your own risk and only as a recommendation, not factual statements. Don't do drugs, stay in school, don't drink and drive and any other disclaimer I need to add, to ensure people realize what's actually going on

 

[No_OBsT33R]

As for 'legal shortcuts' they're legal, you understand what that word means don't you? If you want to be some kind of anal retentive driver, who never hops a curb, enjoy losing every race you join. This is a game, maybe not to you, but it is to me. It's as simple as minimizing and maximizing. Finding and pushing every limit that exists. When I race, I try to abide by the standards that WRS has laid out. "Two(2) wheels on or vertically in line with the track at all times. All hard surfaces are considered track." If you think you're so much better than everyone else, because you've created your own high and mighty standards of how people are suppose to play this game, then forgive me for not abiding by your rules.

If cutting the concrete corner of Deep Forest is what you consider an exploit, then you can understand why I have a hard time taking anything you say seriously.

You need to read the GTP rules (damn you preach them a lot, you should know them) it states when posting times in your lap you MUST have 2 wheels on the track at all times (except track jumps etc) no curb jumping or run off riding/ wall riding, regardless if the lap time wasn't cut by the game. This isn't PSN it's GTP. According to GTP rules your stunt at Deep Forest disqualifies your time.

 

[Basilea]

You need to read the GTP rules (damn you preach them a lot, you should know them) it states when posting times in your lap you MUST have 2 wheels on the track at all times (except track jumps etc) no curb jumping or run off riding/ wall riding, regardless if the lap time wasn't cut by the game. This isn't PSN it's GTP. According to GTP rules your stunt at Deep Forest disqualifies your time.

What jump on deep forest? The asphalt off road on the second left turn before the first underbridge?

And why the hell do you two have such a beef? Why can't both of you accept the others opinion, even though you have the opposite one?

 

[Adrenaline]

You need to read the GTP rules (damn you preach them a lot, you should know them) it states when posting times in your lap you MUST have 2 wheels on the track at all times (except track jumps etc) no curb jumping or run off riding/ wall riding, regardless if the lap time wasn't cut by the game. This isn't PSN it's GTP. According to GTP rules your stunt at Deep Forest disqualifies your time.

Re-read what I wrote, pay close attention to the rule I quoted. Maybe you'll comprehend it this time, if not, try again. Until told otherwise, I have no reason to believe it's out of bounds. They've yet to attend Deep Forest for an official ruling that I'm aware of.

WRS ruling on clean or dirty for another track are below.
Of which, you would consider all 4 dirty, but WRS doesn't.

What jump on deep forest? The asphalt off road on the second left turn before the first underbridge?

Yes.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Using AWD systems to get the advantages of RWD without the disadvantages of RWD is why it works on a track. So you ONLY want to send power to the front when the rear can't handle it all.

If only that were possible in cars that don't have sophisticated AWD systems...

Since it's not, those vehicles are best off with as much forward bias as you can get away with before the fronts get overstressed. Advantage of AWD always has been and always will be traction and the ability to hit the gas harder, sooner. As soon as you start spinning the rears before the fronts that advantage is gone (same for if you spin or overstress the fronts before the rears). I run as much forward bias as I can get without understeer... In my Subarus, that's 45-50%. In my R32 (the Nissan, stock AWD is buggered in it seemingly) it's around 35-40% (more power, better chassis balance).

 

[No_OBsT33R]

Nobody said there was, that's just a quick run down on the rules, you have to be clear when you say 2 wheels on the track at all times cause somebody might cry about their car catching air and technically all 4 tires were not on the Track.

Re-read what I wrote, pay close attention to the rule I quoted. Maybe you'll comprehend it this time, if not, try again. Until told otherwise, I have no reason to believe it's out of bounds. They've yet to attend Deep Forest for an official ruling that I'm aware of.

WRS ruling on clean or dirty for another track are below.
Of which, you would consider all 4 dirty, but WRS doesn't.

http://img69.imageshack.us/i/stuffr.jpg/

Yes.

Naw I agree with those calls and keeping 4 wheels on the track includes the rumble strips, the pavement doesn't. You went all 4 wheels on the outside of the rumble strip, this = off track and no good. You specifically mention tactics you use to win online (jumping curves, using the run off area like you did in Deep Forest) and preach them, but that kind of crap is considered illegitimate at GTP. I don't make the rules...... I don't even Care. You can post all the times you want, none of the affect me. GT is just a video game to me, like Mario kart, just more fun. At the end of the day it's what I do with my PS3 off that's actually important.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

If only that were possible in cars that don't have sophisticated AWD systems...

Why when it is possible with AWD. The cars with AWD DO have that technology, it's called AWD.

 

[Adrenaline]

Nobody said there was, that's just a quick run down on the rules, you have to be clear when you say 2 wheels on the track at all times cause somebody might cry about their car catching air and technically all 4 tires were not on the Track.

Naw I agree with those calls and keeping 4 wheels on the track includes the rumble strips, the pavement doesn't. You went all 4 wheels on the outside of the rumble strip, this = off track and no good.

Honestly, I don't think even you know what you're saying some times.

Here, I'm going to isolate the quote down, so that even someone of your reading comprehension level can focus in on it.

"Two(2) wheels on or vertically in line with the track at all times. All hard surfaces are considered track."

I want you to take notice to two things.
1: "or vertically in line with"
That covers your 'cry' of being airborne, because it doesn't matter if your tires are on the track or not, as long as they are 'VERTICALLY INLINE WITH' the track.

Does that make sense? Do you need a picture for that too?

2: "all hard surfaces are considered track"
That covers the concrete 'run off area' of deep forest by my understanding.
Which, as I've admitted, I've yet to see a specific clarification on to date. So, like I said, "Until told otherwise, I have no reason to believe it's out of bounds. They've yet to attend Deep Forest for an official ruling that I'm aware of."

You can post all the times you want, none of the affect me.

And yet, I'd have to use my hands and toes to count how many of your posts are about me or my lap times.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

I stopped reading when you wrote "all hard surfaces are considered the track"

Your out of your mind, get over your cheeeeese style and get over yourself.

Where the Hell does it say all hard surfaces are considered track? Stop making crap up to suit your argument. That's not just wrong it's stupid.

 

[Motor City Hami]

I stopped reading when you wrote "all hard surfaces are considered the track"

Your out of your mind, get over your cheeeeese style and get over yourself.

Where the Hell does it say all hard surfaces are considered track? Stop making crap up to suit your argument. That's not just wrong it's stupid.

Can you guys take your cat fight somewhere else? This was good LSD discussion thread and I'm not sure what the two of you are adding to the discussion now.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

Here is the final word, quoted from the GTP rules

"Cutting the chicanes or "shorting" the track at any point is strictly prohibited on all parts of the track, including the asphalt-areas in behind out-of track-lines."

Legal cheats are fine fir PSN, GTP has higher standards.

What was that?

 

[Motor City Hami]

Here is the final word, quoted from the GTP rules

"Cutting the chicanes or "shorting" the track at any point is strictly prohibited on all parts of the track, including the asphalt-areas in behind out-of track-lines."

What was that?

Again, what does this have to do with setting the LSD. Go start another thread to continue that argument.

 

[Adrenaline]

I stopped reading in middle school.

Where the Hell does it say all hard surfaces are considered track?

Time and time again, I must be held responsible for your ignorance on the subject at hand...



A link if you'd like to read the discussion: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4911671#post4911671

 

[No_OBsT33R]

"Cutting the chicanes or "shorting" the track at any point is strictly prohibited on all parts of the track, including the asphalt-areas in behind out-of track-lines."

Your quoting a thread, I'm quoting the official finalized rules, please show me where it says that in the rules, not a thread. If you want to keep going open a thread and see what popular opinion on it is...

Actually I don't care, enjoy your game any way you want, please allow me to do so as well.

 

[Tornado]

Why when it is possible with AWD. The cars with AWD DO have that technology, it's called AWD.

Having AWD does not mean it has a sophisticated AWD system. It means it has AWD.
A Nissan GT-R has a sophisticated AWD system. Any Evo newer than the III has a sophisticated AWD system. Anything that is not one of those two (an Audi quattro, for example) generally does not.

 

[Basilea]

Please open a new thread where you can spam around! Noone is interested in that anymore... and there was a good discusion some 15 posts ago...

 

[No_OBsT33R]

Having AWD does not mean it has a sophisticated AWD system. It means it has AWD.
A Nissan GT-R has a sophisticated AWD system. Any Evo newer than the III has a sophisticated AWD system. Anything that is not one of those two (an Audi quattro, for example) generally does not.

Agreed. More of the AWD we deal with in the game are sophisticated and far more advanced then the Quattro that pioneered the tech for off roading rally cars.

With that said either way you go it's personal choice, all we can do if asked is give our opinions on our techniques used, each has their own, in a game anything goes. I admit I will always keep it real even if I suffer for it (I'll never have my front ride height higher then my rear for example despite the gains) I actually have no problem whatsoever with tactics more concentrated on the game when clear the requester is okay with it (as was made clear by the OP for this thread) So Adrenalin & RJ are much better suited to help the OP then I.

Cheers

 

[Basilea]

What do you gain with higher front ride heigh? Understeer?

 

[Motor City Hami]

What do you gain with higher front ride heigh? Understeer?

Some believe that raising the front and lowering the rear will trick the downforce programming in the game and launch the car forward, faster. They believe it is a glitch. I find it interesting that very, very few tunes posted in GTP garages take advantage of this supposed glitch. I don't believe that it exists and didn't find any advantage in my testing. Others may have had different results, but again, why am I not seeing it in many garages if it is such an advantage?

Test it out and let us know what you think. I tend to believe the in-game descriptions on this one.

 

[Adrenaline]

What do you gain with higher front ride heigh? Understeer?

Some believe that raising the front and lowering the rear will trick the downforce programming in the game and launch the car forward, faster. They believe it is a glitch.

Lower rear than front, oversteer.
Lower front than rear, understeer.
*Promotes, not universal.

I don't think it's a glitch, I think it's physics.
Unless you think drag cars are 'glitching' by using massive rake.

I believe it has to do with the physics of weight transfer not a glitch of downforce.

 

[Skunkyskunkface]

I have brought over my theory from gt4 and never put LSD on awd vehicles. I think that evo's and gtr's etc will have pretty clever diffs as standard and in my experience I usually mess them up with a custom LSD.

I miss having the option of a one way diff for my ff cars. I want my decel at 0 not 5.

I am a 10/90 torque distribution kind of guy. I think the main advantages of awd is lost on tracks (awd lemans car?) so I start there and then tweak if needed. I think you need to find the balance for every car and track individually. Lower speed tracks with lots of low gear accel could benefit from higher front traction to help limit wheelspin (depending on bhp) but also have to suffer the understeer I tend to find comes with it..... Traction but at a price and I would rather struggle off the line and eliminate more understeer. Each to their own.

 

[phil_75]

What happened to the tests that were going to be done on first 2 pages?

Just turned into a mind boggling mess like other tuning threads!

Tests with real stats please to end this once and for all

 

[Skunkyskunkface]

I am not sure test would be that helpful other than as a guide of roughly what to expect. Everybody's experience of the same settings will vary wildly with driving style I believe. Smoother drivers may be able to drive a twitchy car closer to its limits while more aggressive drivers may find it too unsettled.

edit.. the type and settings of your controller would probably make a difference also.

 

[nostuner03]

Yes, I started a whole new thread about LSDs, even though there are already a number on the subject. I didn’t want this to get buried in page 17 of a long thread that hasn’t proven definitive. For example, the Initial Torque thread hasn’t really provided anything conclusive in my opinion. Maybe this thread won’t either, but I would hope we can post more of “what does the LSD do in this game” rather than a bunch more formulas, theories, tested it on one car and of course the handful of know-it-alls who have it figured out, yet just can seem to provide a simple explanation. What does the diff do in this game, from a programmer point of view? Move a setting up or down, does the car turn better or understeer (not, it locks to 95% rather than 90%). I don’t know if this community can do that, but let’s give it a shot.

This is what I have found the diff to do in GT5.

Initial Torque:
Lower number, a more open diff = better turning /more oversteer
Higher number, a diff closer to lock = more planted/more understeer

Decel/Accel:
These need to be tuned together. This is how you balance the attitude of the car. Decel affects braking through apex or just before throttle application. Accel affects from apex or throttle application through corner exit. You should use Accel/Decel to balance a car all the way through the corner – it should be smooth, not push in, understeer out or the opposite.

Decel:
Lower number, a more open diff when off throttle = better turning /more oversteer when off throttle
Higher number, a diff closer to lock when off throttle = more control /more understeer when off throttle

Accel:
Lower number, a more open diff when on throttle = better turning / more oversteer, and more possibility for inside wheel spin when on throttle
Higher number, a diff closer to lock when on throttle = more planted / more understeer and less possibility for inside wheel spin when on throttle

So how do you choose the settings? It all depends upon the power of the car and your driving style. The goal for tuning the LSD is to find a balance of understeer/oversteer and to reduce inside wheel spin. It doesn’t need to be any more complicated than that. So where should you start? There are many ways to go at this, so I will just describe how I approach it. Others will have methods to achieve the same goal – a faster, better driving tuned diff. I start with Initial at the default of 10. I truly believe that you have to balance the car first with Decel and Accel, then return to Initial.

My steps:
1.) Initial at 10

2.) Tune the balance with Decel/Accel. I just recently found a track to tune on that really exposes the weaknesses of an LSD tune – Grand Valley East, reverse. The first two turns at the end of the long straight really test the Decel settings of the diff. The first corner is a mid-level left hander, followed immediately by a sort of tight left hander. You can carry some speed through the first corner, but will need to brake a bit for the second – all while the car is off balance, mid corner. If your car has understeer through this section, lower the Decel. If it has oversteer and tries to spin out trying to enter the second corner, raise the Decel.

The other section of Grand Valley East, reverse that exposes a weak LSD tune is the 180 hairpin just before the long straight. Decel can be tuned here too, but the settings that work on the other end of the track will also be strong here. Focus on Accel from power on through exit. If the inside wheel spins or the car has oversteer, raise the Accel. If the car has understeer, lower the Accel.

3.) Now tune the Initial Torque. This is simply an oversteer/understeer proposition times power. For lower powered cars, you can run very low numbers (between 5 and 12). For mid-powered cars I tend to use ranges from 8 to 15. I haven’t found any gains for low to mid power cars to run super high initial torque numbers. These cars just don’t put out enough power to take advantage of a “stronger” diff. For high powered cars, the game changes, depending upon the car. I have used numbers between 10 and 40. It truly depends upon the attitude of the car and how much power and downforce it has. High powered cars also need more throttle control – not just slamming back to full throttle at the apex. More on this below.

4.) Return to Decel/Accel and fine tune, if needed. Once the Initial is set closer to the liking of the car and your driving style, go back to paying attention to the Decel/Accel settings. You may find that corner entry could be a little bit better – raise or lower Decel one or two numbers. Or that corner exit could be a little better – raise or lower the Accel one or two numbers. Finally take one last look at Initial and begin to adjust up and down a number or two, looking to confirm that your LSD is optimized.

One last item to be addressed is outside wheel spin. I will admit that this is the one thing that I have not been able to tune out with the LSD. It challenges logic to how any LSD should work (more locked, less inside wheel spin – less locked, more chance of inside wheel spin). In GT5, I find that when you can move a setting from minimum to maximum and see little difference in affect and/or lap times, the adjustment you are trying to make is not the adjustment needed to solve the problem. You are asking it to solve something that it cannot. My hypothesis (this is the only place in my LSD tuning that is a theory) is that outside wheel spin is more affected by downforce, suspension settings and driver inputs. The outside wheel is being pushed beyond its available grip. Either slow down a little more or apply gentler throttle inputs or change your suspension settings to give more grip on that end of the car. Take the Yellow Bird or the Viper ACR to Grand Valley East, reverse and turn the Initial and Accel all the way up. How can these cars still spin only the outside wheels with an almost locked diff? Both should spin in that situation. Therefore, I believe that getting rid of outside wheel spin is not the job of the LSD.

Your thoughts? I ask again, what does the diff really do in this game?

thanks for the the help with lsd settings. thanks to you i realized that my poor lsd settings were causing me too set up some of my suspensions wrong. the ones i had correct with the new lsd settings feel like completly different cars. i am able to use full throtle at the exit of turns with cars in excess of 700hp. and looking at the replays, the cars seem to react more realistic.