LSD Settings: How they really work in GT5?

[No_OBsT33R]

I'm not following when you say the suspension handles the weight. I agree with chuyler1 that mid corner, more weight is pressing down on the outside tires than on the inside tires. That's a pretty basic car handling 101 thing, isn't it?

I think you both may be a little bit correct or trying to say the same thing??? Weight loads to the outside wheels while cornering and since the inside wheel now has less weight (grip) and has to travel a shorter distance, it will spin (path of least resistance).

Even with more weight the outside wheel is still moving at a higher speed then the inside at the diff. The diff doesn't see the weight, just the difference in wheel speed.

The outside wheel is always following a longer path then the inside. So it takes more turns of the outside wheel then the inside to drive in a circle. As long as the outside wheels are following the longer path they have less resistance (at the LSD) then the inside forced to follow a shorter path.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Even with more weight the outside wheel is still moving at a higher speed then the inside at the diff. The diff doesn't see the weight, just the difference in wheel speed.

Losing me even further now. I'm not sure the point you are trying to make?

A diff can only react to the forces it is set up to move within. If the outside wheel has more load on it and therefore more grip, it will take a bunch more force to spin the outside wheel. Plus, the more load transfer off of the inside to the outside, the higher diff settings you can use. The inside wheel, with less weight on it, therefore less grip, the wheel itself can absorb the "slip" without breaking loose into a spin.

Weight transfer and power have alot to do with LSD settings.

 

[Motor City Hami]

The outside wheel is always following a longer path then the inside. So it takes more turns of the outside wheel then the inside to drive in a circle. As long as the outside wheels are following the longer path they have less resistance (at the LSD) then the inside forced to follow a shorter path.

Right. You added some stuff while I was typing my response. With this statement, you are assuming that the only thing that allows any difference in inside wheel and outside wheel rotations is the LSD. The inside tire can slip and the LSD can keep the power focused on the outside wheel. That is a possible scenario. Ever watch an 18 wheeler with solid axles on the trailer try to make a slow turn in a parking lot. It can still make the corner, just one set of tires needs to slip.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

Not at all I'm saying that's the only thing the LSD can see. It doesn't care how much weight is there, the side spinning more has les resistance AT the LSD. The outside wheels in a corner no matter what spin faster then the inside, this is what the LSD can see. The inside wheels spinning slower causing more resistance.

Unless you can magically make the outside wheels spin slower in a turn then the inside while tracking a turn, it doesn't matter how much weight is on the outside. The only thing that matters is the speed the wheels are ACTUALLY spinning.

 

[Terry_Bull]

Not at all I'm saying that's the only thing the LSD can see. It doesn't care how much weight is there, the side spinning more has les resistance AT the LSD. The outside wheels in a corner no matter what spin faster then the inside, this is what the LSD can see.

i completley agree with that statement

 

[No_OBsT33R]

Unless you can magically make the outside wheels spin slower in a turn then the inside wheels, it doesn't matter how much weight is on the outside. The only thing that matters is the speed the wheels are ACTUALLY spinning.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Unless you can magically make the outside wheels spin slower in a turn then the inside wheels, it doesn't matter how much weight is on the outside. The only thing that matters is the speed the wheels are ACTUALLY spinning.

The inside wheel can slip, so yes, the outside wheel and inside wheel CAN spin at the same speed (locked diff) and still make it around a corner. The inside wheel will slip on the pavement. Porsche in the '70's, '80's and 90's were famous for running locked (by locked, I mean spools or welded diffs) in their race cars. Weight transfer has a huge affect on LSD settings.

 

[chuyler1]

Speed and torque are entirely different. With an open diff, equal torque is sent to both inside and outside tires. That torque stays equal regardless of wheel speed...UNTIL, one wheel breaks traction.

I guess we are questioning which wheel will break first using an open diff. The outside wheel has more weight on it, but it is also doing a majority of the cornering. The inside wheel has less weight but is under less turning stress.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

Speed and torque are entirely different. With an open diff, equal torque is sent to both inside and outside tires. That torque stays equal regardless of wheel speed...UNTIL, one wheel breaks traction.

I guess we are questioning which wheel will break first using an open diff. The outside wheel has more weight on it, but it is also doing a majority of the cornering. The inside wheel has less weight but is under less turning stress.

Wrong in it's entirety.

Look I can't explain it any better, and I won't argue over it. I'm not posting my opinion, these are facts. Either accept it and move on with a better understanding, or keep on going as you were. It makes no difference to me. I would suggest you go to "How stuff works" and see for yourself. If you agree or not it doesn't change, this is how it works as simple as can be explained. Any further and I'd just be repeating myself.

Good luck to you guys.

 

[chuyler1]

I would suggest you go to "How stuff works" and see for yourself.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential3.htm

Differentials and Traction
The open differential always applies the same amount of torque to each wheel. ... Remember that the open differential always applies the same torque to both wheels, and the maximum amount of torque is limited to the greatest amount that will not make the wheels slip.

In other words, both wheels can receive equal torque and still spin at different speeds. Only when one wheel loses traction, for example if one wheel were to travel across a patch of ice, does the application of torque change.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential3.htm

Differentials and Traction
The open differential always applies the same amount of torque to each wheel. ... Remember that the open differential always applies the same torque to both wheels, and the maximum amount of torque is limited to the greatest amount that will not make the wheels slip.

Your confusing straight line and in a corner (we are talking about in a corner) where there is equal resistance on both wheels while going straight, and therefore equal force is applied to each side..

I suggest you read it all before posting.

 

[chuyler1]

I've been following. Cornering or straight line doesn't matter. an Open diff applies equal torque to both wheels unless one starts slipping. The question is which one will slip first? The one with more cornering stress but more grip due to weight, or the one with less grip but less cornering stress.

 

[Terry_Bull]

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential3.htm

lol and how do you know ,the game applys the LSD the same way ?

and are all LSD in the real world the same ???

we all know how it works and what to do with it ,trying to guess this magic formula for LSD is taking the fun of just using your mind and seeing if its right where it matters on the track

 

[dr_slump]

Guys it's so easy.
Just put a 5/5/5 lsd on your car and drive a couple corners.
After that try a 60/60/60 lsd.

You'll see....

 

[No_OBsT33R]

I've been following. Cornering or straight line doesn't matter. an Open diff applies equal torque to both wheels unless one starts slipping. The question is which one will slip first? The one with more cornering stress but more grip due to weight, or the one with less grip but less cornering stress.

Sorry but that's wrong, if it were true it would be almost impossible to make any turn. You seem to fail to understand the role of a differential. You obviously have a fixed head and would rather argue then accept you were wrong. I think that is the biggest issue here, people just don't want to publicly admit they have been making fundamental errors while portraying a higher level of understanding.

It's all good, no big deal. Learn from it then move on.

 

[chuyler1]

I think the problem is you accusing people of not understanding...and you keep failing to explain it in terms that make sense. I am merely quoting known sources of automotive information. I don't claim that the game behaves perfectly, but the guys at PD would have at least attempted to mimic real world physics.

I'm trying to break it down to something simple. What happens with an open differential. In this case 5/5/5 is probably as close as we will get.

Then what happens with a locked differential, 60/60/60.

Obviously the sweet spot is somewhere in between, but how one approaches the issues encountered at both of those settings is important.

 

[Terry_Bull]

I think the problem is you accusing people of not understanding...and you keep failing to explain it in terms that make sense. I am merely quoting known sources of automotive information. I don't claim that the game behaves perfectly, but the guys at PD would have at least attempted to mimic real world physics.

I'm trying to break it down to something simple. What happens with an open differential. In this case 5/5/5 is probably as close as we will get.

Then what happens with a locked differential, 60/60/60.

Obviously the sweet spot is somewhere in between, but how one approaches the issues encountered at both of those settings is important.

thats already been explained since page 1 in great detail since page 4 people have added mysterious values like weight distribution and want to theorise which wheel moves faster which has turned the actual discussion into a farce ,then people have re-explained LSD ,now we have people adding real world LSD into this

 

[No_OBsT33R]

I think the problem is you accusing people of not understanding...and you keep failing to explain it in terms that make sense. I am merely quoting known sources of automotive information. I don't claim that the game behaves perfectly, but the guys at PD would have at least attempted to mimic real world physics.

I'm trying to break it down to something simple. What happens with an open differential. In this case 5/5/5 is probably as close as we will get.

Then what happens with a locked differential, 60/60/60.

Obviously the sweet spot is somewhere in between, but how one approaches the issues encountered at both of those settings is important.

I guess re-read my first post, I think it gives the best break down.

Sorry if I haven't been able to explain it more simply. It's simple while complicated at the same time, so I did my best to be clear.

It's not an accusation but kinda the way it is, people have an understanding, but are fudged on a few details that's all. It's hard to not sound condescending through text even when your not trying to be.

 

[chuyler1]

Which is your "first post"? Just want to start at the right beginning, as I think most of us are talking about the same thing, just in different ways.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

I'm browsing from my phone but I think it's on page 7

 

[No_OBsT33R]

Here is what you should read chuler, in regards to your confusion between straight line and in a corner. Where in a straight line acceleration force is split between the 2, & where the diff goes to work in a corner.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm

""""Why You Need a Differential
Car wheels spin at different speeds, especially when turning. You can see from the animation that each wheel travels a different distance through the turn, and that the inside wheels travel a shorter distance than the outside wheels. Since speed is equal to the distance traveled divided by the time it takes to go that distance, the wheels that travel a shorter distance travel at a lower speed. Also note that the front wheels travel a different distance than the rear wheels.

For the non-driven wheels on your car -- the front wheels on a rear-wheel drive car, the back wheels on a front-wheel drive car -- this is not an issue. There is no connection between them, so they spin independently. But the driven wheels are linked together so that a single engine and transmission can turn both wheels. If your car did not have a differential, the wheels would have to be locked together, forced to spin at the same speed. This would make turning difficult and hard on your car: For the car to be able to turn, one tire would have to slip. With modern tires and concrete roads, a great deal of force is required to make a tire slip. That force would have to be transmitted through the axle from one wheel to another, putting a heavy strain on the axle components."

 

[chuyler1]

I completely understand how a differential works. Its the LSD that makes things complicated. For most low powered cars, the LSD is not needed at all on sport soft tires. The default differential should handle the "wheels rotate at different speeds" issue just fine.

The LSD comes into play during acceleration when you have more torque than 1 wheel can translate to the road. Rather than let that wheel spin and release all the engine's torque, the LSD only allows the wheel to spin a certain percentage more than the other wheel. If you allow zero slippage, you run into the tracking problems (which you've been describing) as both wheels shouldn't be forced to travel at the same speed during a turn.

I was trying to get to the bottom of inside vs outside wheelspin in the case of an open diff. Which wheel is going to break loose first assuming the diff and/or LSD does not interfere at all. I've always assumed it was the inside wheel because under hard cornering it can almost lift off the ground...especially if you put it on the rumble strip of a corner apex. Outside wheelspin, from what I understand, can only be resolved via throttle modulation and or lowering LSD settings if you have them too high.

If that is not correct logic, please explain why.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

I completely understand how a differential works. Its the LSD that makes things complicated. For most low powered cars, the LSD is not needed at all on sport soft tires. The default differential should handle the "wheels rotate at different speeds" issue just fine.

The LSD comes into play during acceleration when you have more torque than 1 wheel can translate to the road. Rather than let that wheel spin and release all the engine's torque, the LSD only allows the wheel to spin a certain percentage more than the other wheel. If you allow zero slippage, you run into the tracking problems (which you've been describing) as both wheels shouldn't be forced to travel at the same speed during a turn.

I was trying to get to the bottom of inside vs outside wheelspin in the case of an open diff. Which wheel is going to break loose first assuming the diff and/or LSD does not interfere at all. I've always assumed it was the inside wheel because under hard cornering it can almost lift off the ground...especially if you put it on the rumble strip of a corner apex. Outside wheelspin, from what I understand, can only be resolved via throttle modulation and or lowering LSD settings if you have them too high.

If that is not correct logic, please explain why.

A LSD works like a Open diff until a wheel slips. It then locks (uses the retained power[adjustable amount with an adjustable LSD, fixed amount in standard LSD]) & spins them both, where an open diff will continue slipping sending 100% power from the wheel with grip to the slipping wheel, doing nothing with the wheel with grip.

What happens when a tire breaks loose is almost instant breaking loose of the other (both drive wheels spin) I also explain how this "roasting" of one side more than the other can be tuned out depending on what side the problem is.

I'm not going to repeat myself anymore.

What's more important is preventing the tire from slipping by using the LSD. I outline how you use it to tune in the game on page 7 it goes into more detail.

I would suggest doing so much research, you know it inside out (as I do) you just need to be open minded to learn.

We had a room at mechanics school that was full of diffs and a working demonstration model with sections cut out etc. It's easiest to learn it in class at mechanics school. It's hard for me to recreate the experience (that wasn't yesterday) through text.

People would be more inclined to speak out if we weren't practically interrogated for it. I'm not spilling a secrete, just telling it the way it is.

 

[Adrenaline]

For the people not involved in this discussion, who are here looking for answers, I only have one recommendation.
Don't get hung up on who claims or appears to be more knowledgeable in real world experience.
Don't let real world differentials dictate what you actually notice in game.
Remember that this is a simulation and programming can only go so far.
Take 2 or 3 theories to the track, test them out and see which one works for you.
Cause and effect will yield far better results than any of these discussions or debates.

"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not." — Albert Einstein

 

[No_OBsT33R]

Wouldn't be much of a simulator if it didn't make the simple simulations it specifically claims to simulate (it's in the game and tunable it's simulated) they don't claim to simulate boost controllers and they are not in the Real Driving Simulator.

I see mostly people achieving the goal they want (reducing throttle oversteer for instance) by tuning the INT at the same time as the accel. Turning the INT up while reducing the accel can have similar effects to just raising the accel, however doing that effects more then just how the car acts under acceleration (the time where your throttle oversteer exist) it also makes the car rotate less when neutral & braking. Where adjusting only the accel (but correctly) will have the desired effect but only when you want it. It's addressing the problem directly instead of indirectly.

 

[Adrenaline]

I'm not saying you're wrong, because clearly it works for you, and that's all that should be important. What I can say, is I have numerous examples and experience in game that contradict your theory. Maybe they're just the exception to the rule, I don't know. I'm just letting the 'lurkers' know that they shouldn't take anyones theory too seriously, just because of what they claim to know in the real world. This includes me as well.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

I'm not saying you're wrong, because clearly it works for you, and that's all that should be important. What I can say, is I have numerous examples and experience in game that contradict your theory. Maybe they're just the exception to the rule, I don't know. I'm just letting the 'lurkers' know that they shouldn't take anyones theory too seriously, just because of what they claim to know in the real world. This includes me as well.

I think your contradictions fall in the last post and are a result of indirect tuning. I've watched quietly and that's what I see and explains how your theories (mine are not theories but fact) appear to be working to you. I credit you guys with great feel and ability to tune to it. I just see you making some critical errors (spring rates) and a little indirect tuning errors (tuning the int & accel at the same time to only address throttle oversteer) I watched you and RJ adjusting the int really high overlooking what would help (increasing the accel setting) because of a fundamental misunderstanding. Attacking your issue with int instead. That's what you were doing on the YB tune, I just didn't say anything.

Here you are at one point

I10/20/12 = fail
20/19/10 = fail
18/20/9 = closer
17/19/8 = win...ish

You see instead of doing what you should to fix your throttle oversteer (raise the accel, it's far too low for a YB) your indirectly attacking the issue with the INT setting, effecting turning in neutral and while braking, but you overly drop the Deccel to compensate for your excessive int while braking.

Like I said people have been indirectly tuning out the issues making your theories appear to work when it's not so, your just masking it with INT.

In the end the tunes work for you, so That's a good technique for your style in a game, stabilizing the car with INT then using the low accel to overpower the understeer with throttle oversteer. The oversteer fighting the understeer. It's just wether or not your getting to the right spot for your style, your getting there backwards, it will save time if you did it with the right understanding of what your doing.

 

[Adrenaline]

(mine are not theories but fact)
...your getting there backwards

First off, your theories may be fact in the real world, but in this game they are still theories. Especially since I can prove them wrong, meaning they can't possibly be 'fact' by definition of the word.

Secondly I'm only getting there backwards by your theory, not mine.
Which, as I've already said, I'm not here to argue. I'm just letting the readers know, they shouldn't take any of us at our 'word' they should experiment for themselves. No more, no less.

Your assumptions on why I tried what I did, are wrong in the first place, so your entire foundation of why my theory is backwards is corrupt.

I won't argue this with you any further.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

First off, your theories may be fact in the real world, but in this game they are still theories. Especially since I can prove them wrong, meaning they can't possibly be 'fact' by definition of the word.

Secondly I'm only getting there backwards by your theory, not mine.
Which, as I've already said, I'm not here to argue. I'm just letting the readers know, they shouldn't take any of us at our 'word' they should experiment for themselves. No more, no less.

Your assumptions on why I tried what I did, are wrong in the first place, so your entire foundation of why my theory is backwards is corrupt.

I won't argue this with you any further.

Please, I'd like to see you definitively prove it wrong. PD did a good job on LSD's. I already displayed what your actually doing to what you think your doing. It's funny from my POV.

It's backwards theories like yours coupled with your tenacious obsession to argue them that have people still confused about LSD's. If people wouldn't overplay their understanding to satisfy their E-ego, it would be easier for the people who have a higher level of expertise to chime in. However faced with members like yourself who will argue to death, it's not worth our time, so most keep it to themselves, and nobody learns anything.

Nothing I've said is theoretical, but factual, and confirmed in the games LSD explanations, and on the track.

 

[Motor City Hami]

We had a room at mechanics school that was full of diffs and a working demonstration model with sections cut out etc. It's easiest to learn it in class at mechanics school. It's hard for me to recreate the experience (that wasn't yesterday) through text.

So your experience with LSDs is from seeing them on a table in mechanics school. Ever race? Ever tune one for your race car? Ever drive a car with a welded diff? A clutch type? A spring and block pressure plate diff? A torsion? I have.

You are claiming to have it all figured out. You state that your thoery follows the in-game descriptions, yet you distort how accel is described in the game. I think you are having a difficult time explaining your thoery to everyone, not because we are all on some lower level of engineering understanding, but because you haven't really worked out your thoery. You don't even get how weight distribution affects an LSD and what you can do to the settings. Your knowledge from seeing them sitting on a bench and from reading an artile on how stuff works, hardly gives you the credibility to tell others that your thoery is fact.