- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
Major explosion and shooting in Oslo
- Thread starter Encyclopedia
- 224 comments
- 18,807 views
- 29,326
- Glasgow
- GTP_Mars
It looks eerily like my digs when I was a Ph.D student - except the kitchen looks nicer and we didn't get flat-screen TVs
I'm all for humane treatment and rehabilitation - but luxury digs and all mod cons for mass murderers is beyond the pale.
But I suppose it's all part of the psychology of the idea in the first place, the better it and more expensive it is the better the treatment of rehabilitation, all the details will add up.
We know for a fact the way we do it does not work. People often re-offend the moment they are out of prison.
I like the idea of guards joining in the recreation and of a 50/50 split between male and female guards.
It's clever.
We know for a fact the way we do it does not work. People often re-offend the moment they are out of prison.
I like the idea of guards joining in the recreation and of a 50/50 split between male and female guards.
It's clever.
boiltheocean
Premium
- 7,756
- Samoa
It looks eerily like my digs when I was a Ph.D student - except the kitchen looks nicer and we didn't get flat-screen TVs
I'm all for humane treatment and rehabilitation - but luxury digs and all mod cons for mass murderers is beyond the pale.
If it stops them re-offending though isn't that a good thing? Although this could lead to people committing offences simply because their life behind bars would be more luxurious than if they were free.
- 4,035
- Gothenburg
- Agremont
They're publishing the names of the victims now. Problem is that there are too many people trying to access the the Norwegian police's website so it's getting delayed.
- 29,326
- Glasgow
- GTP_Mars
Sure, but this kind of treatment is only likely to be worthwhile for certain types of offender, and also seems to lack a certain element of punishment worthy of many more serious crimes. I would hardly think it appropriate for guards to be joining in with recreational activities with someone who just murdered 76 innocent people in cold blood. No amount of table tennis and backgammon is going to sort that out, I'm afraid.
But has that method been proven to not work?
Lack of freedom and constant enforcement is still a punishment that's worse than being out in the world outside.
I think it might be possible to be rehabilitated, i mean look at all soldiers, they kill innocent people and are paid to do it. Even if a man shot is an enemy, he is still an innocent man. Soldiers are murders, and it must have an impact on the mind. Or making the point more strong there have been plenty of ex soldiers that were in the world wars of other wars and broke Geneva conventions and raped and tortured or were prison guards and killed hundreds of people, but after the war they had their pre army lives back again within the community. effected by it but not incapacitated.
Lack of freedom and constant enforcement is still a punishment that's worse than being out in the world outside.
I think it might be possible to be rehabilitated, i mean look at all soldiers, they kill innocent people and are paid to do it. Even if a man shot is an enemy, he is still an innocent man. Soldiers are murders, and it must have an impact on the mind. Or making the point more strong there have been plenty of ex soldiers that were in the world wars of other wars and broke Geneva conventions and raped and tortured or were prison guards and killed hundreds of people, but after the war they had their pre army lives back again within the community. effected by it but not incapacitated.
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- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
Why not just give everyone house arrest?
I don't believe I just read that. You are comparing heroes to scum.
Soldiers known to break Geneva convention rules are tried with crimes and serve years in prison as if they had committed those crimes outside of military service. They do not get to go home as if nothing happened. Sure, some things are covered up for whatever reasons, but so are things in non-military cases.
- 4,035
- Gothenburg
- Agremont
http://www.dagbladet.no/terror/ofrene/
Confirmed victims. Most are young people with their whole life ahead of them. This is incredibly sad.
Confirmed victims. Most are young people with their whole life ahead of them. This is incredibly sad.
House arrest for some, but for others an environment of control and organisation is needed for therapy I would imagine.
As for those who committed war crimes there have been thousands that nobody even knows about. From many countries. Or not just war crimes but within the country itself taking orders from higher up. But would still be an international crime, like ethnic cleansing or whatever.
I have seen just a handful of stories of people living a free life, because they did not get into "trouble" who years ago killed and tortured people as part of their job task. A hero to some, a nightmare to others.
- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
- 15,490
- UK
Soldiers kill innocent people (enemies), they are doing what they think is right or their duty.
Which can be argued is no different from a mass killer who is killing people for a reason. He is doing what he thinks is right.
Law of a specific country has little to do with it, each are killing a person without knowing them as an individual.
You could argue soldiers are worse as they kill anyone for their duty, the mass killer chose people he thought were against his beliefs.
You could add on extra layers such as soldiers are in a kill or be killed situation, but that doesn't change the fact they are killing each other and both sides are innocent victims of someone else's issue, most of the time. But they become murderers as soon as they fire one shot. My main point of this line of thought was mainly to show stress conditions of killing other people and the living with it afterwards. Soldiers are brainwashed into it being their duty and for country, this helps them deal with it, but some will think more about it and have to deal with the guilt in various ways, even though the law permitted them to do it. In persons mind law means nothing, there has to be a reason, or regret and rehabilitation process.
- 2,239
- caswellhouse
Moot
No disrespect meant but that is some of the stupidest stuff i have ever read. Even for the internet.
When a country is in a state of war with another country, the enemy combatants are not innocent.
Would an innocent person on the streets be shooting at you just because they had a different belief than you. No. They wouldnt be innocent at that point anyway, but thats besides the point.
You are saying in that quote that soldiers are guilty of their actions. Both sides are the enemy.
By necessity for whatever reason they must murder, so they are murderers. The mass killer also has his necessity, but is unsupported by government and also does not abide by Geneva conventions. It is plain he is a much worse type of person to be in action. Certain soldiers, especially in a war, will do things they are not allowed to do by their law or Geneva convention.
But I take your point about combatants not being innocent compared to civilians. I understand that once someone enlists in the military they are no longer a free will or independent they are an instrument of action which will bear any consequences, innocence is wavered upon signing the contract to serve. I hope you will know what I was thinking at the time, that a soldier as an individual free thinking person is innocent until fatal attack as they have done nothing wrong. But that is infant not the case, the guilt comes at start of service. Although guilt might not be the right word.
I might have to back down a bit on that previously posted analogy.
But will keep it regarding the effects of the mind of killing, afterwards it will effect any man.
And the other case of war crimes or intelligence agents /secret police etc that do bad things. They are able to live in community without punishment and not be a threat to society, they are troubled by it though. Obviously a person would not have freedom if they still had their intents to cause harm. Depends how bad they are and if they can be treated etc. But the goal should be hopeful and for the best of intentions for all.
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- 2,239
- caswellhouse
Gotcha! I disagree with some but agree 100% about living with your actions after the fact. Many troops returning home cannot cope with that very thing. PRime exapmle here would be the amount of drug and booze addicted vietnam vets. Society and the disrespect towards ourreturning troops def played a role aswell.
Yeah i know vietnam in general is a bad example as many many many truly innocents were killed there.
Yeah i know vietnam in general is a bad example as many many many truly innocents were killed there.
- 24,627
- Anoka, MN
Comparing this nutjob to soldiers really isn't a good idea. For one soldiers are in a war zone, people are trying to kill them as well. War today is also way different from the history books as the enemy usually isn't wearing uniforms, they are wearing civilian clothing, they blend in with truly innocent people. I'm not condoning the killing of innocent people by soldiers but the circumstances are way different.
This wacko walked into a camp of innocent people, nobody was trying to kill him.
This wacko walked into a camp of innocent people, nobody was trying to kill him.
@ Moot - 76 mostly young people have just been killed in an atrocious terrorist attack of which the details are only just emerging. They haven't even named all the victims yet! Discussing the similarities between a soldiers actions at war and the actions of one psychopath has got very little to do with the event and is quite far from the being on topic. Bringing up points like this and the plush prison conditions that may be received by someone whose trial has only just started is crass, inflammatory and is derailing this thread. Please show a little decency and stop making stupid troll like comments.
- 7,177
- Lisboa
- FLAT_TWELVE
Saw the video that is supposed to be from the guy that killed all those kids. The pictures at the end are telling on the alternate-reality he was living. And all the drawings of medieval templar-knights only add up to it. This guy thought what? That he would equal his medieval role models by doing his private crusade into ... a summer camp in Norway? How brave ...
- 7,177
- Lisboa
- FLAT_TWELVE
I was discussing with a good friend this massacre and how difficult it was to "understand" it, from all the possible "readings" ...
(act of pure evil? anti-islamism? fundamentalist christianism? fundamentalist freemasonry? anti-communism? just serious case of mental disorder coupled with ability to do some cold planning and thirst for violence? )
... and he told something like this (not quoting word for word I don't record my conversations with friends
:
"did you see how pleased he looked inside the police car? how much he cared for leaving a Youtube video and a "manifesto" ... I guess the answer to what made him do this is much simpler than that and is also as old as civilization. Check Herostratus and you'll find a guy that destroyed one of the 7 classical wonders only to be remembered for all posterity. Guess what ... he achieved his goals"
PS - My friend is, not also a man of great culture (some would call him a "nerd"
, but also professionally teacher and historian, hence he knows these obscure forgotten characters. 
(act of pure evil? anti-islamism? fundamentalist christianism? fundamentalist freemasonry? anti-communism? just serious case of mental disorder coupled with ability to do some cold planning and thirst for violence? )
... and he told something like this (not quoting word for word I don't record my conversations with friends
:"did you see how pleased he looked inside the police car? how much he cared for leaving a Youtube video and a "manifesto" ... I guess the answer to what made him do this is much simpler than that and is also as old as civilization. Check Herostratus and you'll find a guy that destroyed one of the 7 classical wonders only to be remembered for all posterity. Guess what ... he achieved his goals"
PS - My friend is, not also a man of great culture (some would call him a "nerd"
, but also professionally teacher and historian, hence he knows these obscure forgotten characters. 
- 23,987
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
It was ultra-liberal ideals like this that the guy was objecting to in the first place.
What may work in Norway won't necessarily work elsewhere.
Norway has a higher standard of living than either the US or UK. Offenders have less reason to re-offend then they do in a country that has high unemployment and less poorly paid work.
Norwegians, like all Scandinavian countries, pay very high taxes. It's easier for governments to provide luxury prisons with great rehabilitation programmes if your population is paying almost 50% income tax.
UK and US prisons are old and overcrowded and generally too comfortable for my liking - and should be this way too. IMO. Prison shouldn't be a free 5 star holiday - what's the deterrent to offending if your lifestyle is to be improved when given a prison sentence?
A mortgage and the full-time job needed to pay it are enough for most people to already feel like they don't have much freedom. An open prison like these Norwegian ones doesn't sound bad in comparison. The next time i commit a heinous crime i'll be sure to do it in Norway.
- 4,035
- Gothenburg
- Agremont
^You'd have to earn quite a lot of money to pay 50% income tax. Most people pay around 30% income tax (at least in Sweden, but I think it's about the same in the rest of scandinavia.)
Not really relevant to the discussion, I just wanted to say it.
Not really relevant to the discussion, I just wanted to say it.
- 23,987
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
I know, it was a bit simplistic. I was just pointing out that in general Scandinavians pay more in tax then other parts of the western world.
![[Nor]MclarenF1](/forum/data/avatars/m/169/169289.jpg?1413287138){kind=avatar}
- 2,281
- Moss
- hoydeskrekk
The average Norwegian pays about 36% in taxes (atleast I do). Just to clarify that subject. 
- 2,281
- Moss
- hoydeskrekk
