Makeshift Shuffle Club - Time Trials & Testing for club car lists - all welcomeOpen

[watermelon punch]

I think (not sure) but I vaguely remember a conversation being about the Cougar, and how its skinny tires were what made it non-competitive with other cars that should've been in the same range on paper.
So that's kind of the opposite situation.

I guess I would've just assumed that there was something built into the car to deal with handling based on tire width.
But I don't know.

Is that custom rims thing still an issue?
I thought it wasn't...
But for example, I never painted the wheels on my Luxury list cars... and I recall there was some reason for that... having to do with a custom rim issue... Though, I have to admit, it was over a year ago, and I just don't remember the details.
I just remember someone mentioning (a couple of months ago), that I could custom up the rims and paint them now... So I had thought that problem was fixed in the summer update (when I was on hiatus).
I haven't bothered painting those rims yet though. I have other cars I haven't gotten around to painting at all.

The stranger thing is that supposedly people have tested custom upgraded rims on cars, and found no advantage gained.
Which seems kind of stupid within itself.
I don't even know if that's true. Or not. Or if it's true with some cars, and not others. Or how that is handled.

Because... upgrading your rims in some cars, will prevent you from entering the track under "tuning prohibited" just like if you put a wing on the car... but in other cars it doesn't stop you entering under "tuning prohibited" apparently.

I know this because there was one driver who painted their wheels on the Honda Step Life Van for the race, and they were able to race with it, and I know the room was set to Tuning Prohibited. No one else had custom painted wheels because it's listed in the regulations for the club to only use standard custom wheels and the Honda Life Step Van doesn't offer custom standard wheels.
Yet I recall testing it in the past, and not being able to enter the track under Tuning Prohibited when the ONLY thing that had been changed on the car was the upgraded wheels. I remember this test particularly because it was one of the Luxury list cars I tested with... think it was the DB9 or maybe one of the other cars high in the list... and then I wound up, in the end, just buying a duplicate to be on the safe side, and shoving the upgraded one into the stockyard, where I recalled that whole thing when I was perusing my stockyard after some months of not having turned on the game.

Of course, regardless, the regulations for the club stand, even if there is no mechanical advantage because:
1.) If the particular car is unable to enter under tuning prohibited ... that's going to cause a hold up & confusion in the lobby... with a part that can't be removed/changed in the lobby without leaving.
2.) If they decide to change it at some point, so that no car with upgraded rims could enter under Tuning Prohibited... then anyone with upgraded rims is going to wind up with quite a job on their hands in to change the wheels on over 150 cars.
So I figure it's safest to just discourage upgraded rims... even if it wouldn't cause a mechanical advantage.

But does it in some cars and that's why some cars are barred with the upgraded rims from Tuning Prohibited?
But in other cars, like the Honda Life Step Van... the upgraded rims don't do anything anyway?

I don't know the answers to these questions, and I haven't read anything about this recently on the forum.


Also... completely unrelated, but I have to get this off my shoulders. Now.
The new Hulu commercials (that advertise Hulu ON subscription Hulu)...
Just. No.
I thought the Daily Burn commercials were weird and torturously annoying... but I'd take twice the amount of Daily Burn and bizarre toilet paper commercials just to not have to hear the Hulu commercials.

 

[snowgt]

The custom-rim tyre-width problem was fixed very early on in GT6's life span.

 

[watermelon punch]

Convertible & Cabriolet

1. Peugeot 307 CC Premium AVN '04
2. Mazda Eunos Roadster J-Limited (NA) '91
3. Mazda MX-5 (NA) '89
4. Fiat Barchetta Giovane Due '00
5. Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder GTS '03
6. Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0i V6 24V '01
7. Hyundai Tiburón Turbulence '99
8. MG MGF '97
9. MG TF160 '03
10. Mazda Roadster RS (NC) '07

Any others in the 350pp to 420pp range?

 

[snowgt]

Convertible & Cabriolet

1. Peugeot 307 CC Premium AVN '04
2. Mazda Eunos Roadster J-Limited (NA) '91
3. Mazda MX-5 (NA) '89
4. Fiat Barchetta Giovane Due '00
5. Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder GTS '03
6. Alfa Romeo Spider 3.0i V6 24V '01
7. Hyundai Tiburón Turbulence '99
8. MG MGF '97
9. MG TF160 '03
10. Mazda Roadster RS (NC) '07

Any others in the 350pp to 420pp range?

A couple.

Suzuki Cappuccino (EA21R) '95
Chevrolet Corvette Convertible (C1) '54
Alfa Romeo Spider 1600 Duetto '66
BMW 507 '57
Mazda Roadster 1600 NR-A (NB) '04
Peugeot 206 CC '01
Mazda Eunos Roadster (NA Special Package) '89
Toyota MR-S S Edition '99
Nissan Fairlady 2000 (SR311) '68
Mazda Roadster 1.8 RS (NB) '98
Hyundai Tuscani CCS '03
Toyota MR-S V Edition (6MT) '02
Mazda MX-5 1800 RS (NB, J) '04
Mercedes-Benz SLK 230 Kompressor '98
Mercedes-Benz SL 500 (R129) '98
Mercedes-Benz SL 600 (R129) '98
Toyota Soarer 430SCV '01
BMW Z4 '03

The Hyundai Tiburon Turbulence is a hard top. Maybe you were thinking about the Tuscani CCS…?

I've included 1 other variety of the MX-5 (NA), because it's the other premium model, and all possible NB-versions.

 

[watermelon punch]

Thanks...

The Hyundai Tiburon Turbulence is a hard top. Maybe you were thinking about the Tuscani CCS…?

The turbulence is a mistake. It got left behind in the spreadsheet as I was moving cars around from spreadsheet to spreadsheet.

Hyundai Tuscani CCS '03
Peugeot 206 CC '01
Are these convertible?

Suzuki Cappuccino (EA21R) '95
too slow for this list I think, plus one cappy will stay in the low pwer list

Chevrolet Corvette Convertible (C1) '54
does this have a limiter issue?

Alfa Romeo Spider 1600 Duetto '66
BMW 507 '57
Nissan Fairlady 2000 (SR311) '68
in the vintage list already

Mazda Roadster 1600 NR-A (NB) '04
Mazda Eunos Roadster (NA Special Package) '89
Mazda MX-5 1800 RS (NB, J) '04
Mazda Roadster 1.8 RS (NB) '98

I was planning on including 2 miatas... but figured I'd include the Historic Miata (w/ stripes) and the newest... premium.
I'll add hte other premium, since it may balance htings out. But this would be a rare case I would even consider 2 of the same model in one list.

Mercedes-Benz SLK 230 Kompressor '98
Mercedes-Benz SL 500 (R129) '98
Mercedes-Benz SL 600 (R129) '98

Will these be too fast?
And are they convertibles?


I see these possibly fitting in...

Toyota Soarer 430SCV '01
Toyota MR-S S Edition '99
BMW Z4 '03
Toyota MR-S V Edition (6MT) '02

 

[snowgt]

…but I've got a new one, too. This is part 1 (the slower part) of …

Mid-Engine Heaven:

Tested at Nürburgring GP/F, SH tyres.

Lap time, Top Speed, SSRX, Car model

2:33,681 179 258L MG TF160 '03
2:32,556 180 252L MG MGF '97
2:32,007 181 230L Toyota MR-S S Edition '99
2:29,997 182 265 Toyota MR-S V Edition (6MT) '02
2:29,932 182 247L Lotus Europa Special '72
2:28,987 179 246 Lotus Elise '11
2:28,281 193 259L Toyota MR2 G-Limited '97
2:27,327 189 264 Peugeot 205 Turbo 16 '85
2:26,563 191 267 Hommell Berlinette R/S Coupe '99
2:26,146 185 267 Lotus Elise '96
2:25,531 189 262 Opel Speedster '00
2:25,365 198 249L Lancia Stratos '73
2:25,003 201 289 Renault Sport Clio V6 Phase 2 '03
2:23,900 192 262L Lotus Elise 111S '03
2:23,127 197 262L Opel Speedster Turbo '00
2:22,632 201 285 Renault Sport Clio V6 24V '00
2:22,429 199 290 Ferrari Dino 246 GT '71
2:22,193 202 280 Lotus Esprit Turbo HC '87
2:21,969 201 282 Renault Sport Lutecia V6 24V '01
2:21,229 203 280 Ford RS200 '84
2:20,145 201 268L AutoBacs Garaiya '02
2:19,696 206 268L Tommykaira ZZ-S '00
2:19,048 208 312 Lotus Evora '09
2:18,851 212 321 Honda NSX '01
2:18,019 205 284L Lotus Elise 111R '04
2:16,641 223 304L Lotus Esprit V8 GT '98

Notes:
- I had to fall back on some cars from other lists to plug some holes and avoid almost undrivable cars. The Clio Phase 2 is one of those. It makes the Stratos look tame in comparison.
- The MR2 G-Limited is not much better than the MR2 GT-S, so I think we should steer around it.
- I would have liked to have only one of each of the three Elise-model iterations, but a hole of almost 2 seconds between the two Opel Speedsters made it necessary to include the 111S. Actually, the Speedster Turbo could be cut, if somebody thinks two Speedsters are one too many.
- Going purely by lap times, the Renault Lutecia is the better fit than the Clio-variant, but the Clio is a premium model, so I gave it priority.
- The NSX could also be cut, if it proves to be too much out of character, but I think it fits.

 

[snowgt]

Hyundai Tuscani CCS '03
Peugeot 206 CC '01
Are these convertible?

Yep. Retractable hard tops.

Chevrolet Corvette Convertible (C1) '54
does this have a limiter issue?

Possibly. Pretty sure it might on faster tracks.

Mazda Roadster 1600 NR-A (NB) '04
Mazda Eunos Roadster (NA Special Package) '89
Mazda MX-5 1800 RS (NB, J) '04
Mazda Roadster 1.8 RS (NB) '98

I was planning on including 2 miatas... but figured I'd include the Historic Miata (w/ stripes) and the newest... premium.
I'll add hte other premium, since it may balance htings out. But this would be a rare case I would even consider 2 of the same model in one list.

Totally up to you. Just included them for completeness sake.

Mercedes-Benz SLK 230 Kompressor '98
Mercedes-Benz SL 500 (R129) '98
Mercedes-Benz SL 600 (R129) '98

Will these be too fast?
And are they convertibles?

Depends on what the slowest car will turn out to be. At least the SLK should be in range.
The SLK has a retractable hard top.
To my knowledge, the R129 SL's were cabriolets, but you could order a hard top that could be put on or taken off quite quickly. In the game they're always with hard top on though.

 

[LongbowX]

A few others to maybe consider on the faster end...

S2000, Prowler, XNR Roadster (sorta!), S15 Silvia Varietta...

The Varietta is perfect for the list, I think.

 

[watermelon punch]

Ah yeas, I had the varietta in the big traffic spreadsheet.
I knew there was another cabriolet I had come across.
I keep finding other cars when I shop for other cars. Now I have this huge pile of cars.
(Good thing for the spreadsheet. )

And yes, it's perfect for this speed.


Oh, and I was considering the prowler in the traffic list... (which will be actually probably 2 lists in the end )
But I need a couple more cars that are right around there or a tad slower than it is, to ever have a hope of rounding it out.

 

[terrordog1490]

The custom-rim tyre-width problem was fixed very early on in GT6's life span.

Awesome. I didn't really pay much attention to the dates on things that I read, and I only got GT6 around the end of this past November on Black Friday.


Oh, and setting the room to support no more than 2 participants worked I now have time trial results for the Classics that melon specifically mentioned at the Motegi East TT event.
1:31.540 Ferrari 365 GTB4 '71
1:30.848 Lamborghini Countach LP400 '74
1:30.011 RUF CTR 'Yellow Bird' '87
1:29.771 Lamborghini Miura P400.....


I could get faster laps with more practice with all of these cars. I don't have a lot of experience with any of the Motegi tracks, but I am getting a better feel for it from our races on it, and from the time trials. And those all have increased brake sensitivity. I forgot to ask if that was okay for time trials. The Ferrari was pretty easy to handle, but the Countach felt a bit odd to me. It was pretty stable given its weight distribution, so I felt like I had to put a lot of effort in to really force it through the corners. Then, the Yellow Bird was the total opposite, which I expected based on my experience with it in GT5, but still, the transfer from the Countach to the Yellow Bird was... rather exciting. The Miura felt perfect in the corners, though the open diff gave me a little trouble at times.

Geez, so many new car lists. Not just new cars, but new lists! I guess I'll be off to another shopping spree to test them. I wonder if 10 million credits will be enough to get them all.

 

[snowgt]

@watermelon punch

General Low Power Testing at Motegi East, CS tyres, part I.

Lap time, Speed at Start/Finish, Speed at end of straight, SSRX, Car model

2:09,838 92 128 174 Honda S500 '63
2:08,074 95 131 172 Fiat Panda Super i.e. '90
2:07,838 97 134 168L Volkswagen Karmann Ghia Coupe (Type-1) '68
2:07,688 94 128 171 Suzuki Alto Lapin Turbo '02
2:06,054 98 133 176 Daihatsu Move CX '95
2:05,415 97 137 184 Honda S600 '64
2:05,271 96 133 155L Toyota Sports 800 '65
2:05,000 98 135 181 Nissan Pao '89
2:04,769 97 133 182 Daihatsu Storia CX 4WD '98
2:04,379 99 138 139L Nissan Skyline 1500 Deluxe (S50D-1) '63
2:04,349 100 139 192 Ford Ka '01
2:04,018 98 133 176 Daihatsu Move Custom RS Limited '02
2:03,862 104 147 213 Volvo 240 GLT Estate '88
2:03,711 99 136 183 Nissan Be-1 '87
2:03,251 104 146 209 Nissan Skyline Sport Coupe (BLRA-3) '62
2:03,001 99 135 180 Suzuki Wagon R RR '98
2:02,693 102 140 185 Daihatsu Storia CX 2WD '98
2:01,960 101 137 183 Daihatsu Move SR-XX 4WD '97
2:01,709 102 140 186 Fiat 500 1.2 8V Lounge SS '08
2:00,518 104 143 182 Nissan Cube X '98
2:00,250 106 146 186 Nissan Cube EX (FF/CVT) '02
2:00,167 103 143 196 Mini Cooper 1.3i '98
1:59,842 105 144 173L Abarth 1500 Biposto Bertone B.A.T 1 '52
1:59,838 103 140 196 Suzuki Alto Works RS-Z '97
1:59,762 102 139 188 Suzuki Kei Works '02
1:59,756 103 143 191 Suzuki MR Wagon Sport '04
1:59,693 104 141 183 Suzuki Cervo SR '07
1:59,335 105 143 184 Daihatsu Move SR-XX 2WD '97
1:59,305 103 141 178L Honda S800 '66
1:58,674 106 146 196 Toyota Vitz F '99

Only the '63 Skyline has real limiter problems. Toyota Sports 800 & Abarth 1500 top out at SSR7, but nowhere else.

WIll post the next batch of 30 cars when I'm through.

 

[terrordog1490]

If I have time tomorrow, I'm going to start working on some of the batches. I have some courses in mind to match the descriptions for the types of courses you want for some of the batches. For the track with hills, I'm thinking Matterhorn Rotenboden, and for tight turns/stop-and-go, I'm thinking Cote d'Azur. Ascari might be useful as well.

 

[terrordog1490]

Idk if it's gonna be an issue or not, but the Daihatsu MIRA TR-XX Avanzato R hit the limiter shortly before the braking point at the end of the high-speed section. Also, you'll notice a huge gap between the Scion and the rest of the cars, as well as between the Nissan Cube and the Mazda Autozam.

 

[snowgt]

Part II of General Low Power Testing.

1:59,037 103 140 195 Suzuki Alto Works Suzuki Sport Limited '97
1:58,604 105 145 186 Mitsubishi Minica Dangan ZZ '89
1:58,242 105 147 176L Triumph Spitfire 1500 '74
1:57,996 106 148 203 Daihatsu Copen Active Top '02
1:57,888 107 147 189L Daihatsu Mira TR-XX Avanzato R '97
1:57,685 106 149 171L Honda Beat '91
1:57,450 108 149 194L Autobianchi A112 Abarth '79
1:57,372 106 148 206 Mazda Autozam AZ-1 '92
1:56,909 109 149 204 Nissan March G# '99
1:56,775 105 145 208 Suzuki Cappuccino (EA11R) '91
1:56,597 110 154 170L Nissan Silvia (CSP311) '65
1:56,586 107 149 204 Daihatsu Copen Detachable Top '02
1:56,514 109 151 207 Audi A2 1.4 '02
1:56,138 110 151 180L Nissan Bluebird 1600 Deluxe (510) '69
1:55,372 113 152 193 Scion xB '03
1:56,070 108 149 213 Daihatsu OFC-1 '07
1:55,990 110 151 210 Mitsubishi Mirage 1400GLX '78
1:55,911 110 153 214 Mini One '02
1:55,795 111 154 210 Opel Corsa Comfort 1.4 '01
1:55,313 111 153 208 Mercedes-Benz A 160 Avantgarde '98
1:55,197 113 152 193 Toyota bB 1.5Z X Version '00
1:54,837 107 147 209 Suzuki Cappuccino (EA21R) '95
1:54,320 112 156 176L Nissan Bluebird Hardtop 1800SSS (910) '79
1:54,181 114 156 212L Mazda Demio GL-X '99
1:54,149 112 153 200 Nissan Micra '03
1:53,921 110 152 215 Mitsubishi i Concept '03
1:53,904 115 158 201 Honda Element '03
1:53,897 115 159 223 Honda Odyssey '03
1:53,816 115 157 214 Mitsubishi Colt 1.5 Sport X Version '02
1:53,816 115 157 211 Toyota ist 1.5S '02

Limiter issues:
- Triumph Spitfire, Honda Beat, Nissan Bluebird '69 will hit the limiter at SSR7, but not at Monza NC. Should be fine.
- The Nissan Bluebird '79 also tops out at Monza NC, but not at Fuji. That might be on the brink of being acceptable.
- The Nissan Silvia '65 hits the limiter also at Fuji. Might cause problems on more tracks.

 

[terrordog1490]

The stop-and-go batch...

For the hybrids, I did a best lap with battery power and one without, since the battery was only good for the entire first lap and most of the second lap for both of them. For the Honda Insight, my best lap was on the second lap, but the battery ran out right after the final corner. I felt that I would not be able to repeat that same lap after a restart, so I just went with it. Before the battery died, I was running a pace that had me a full 2 seconds faster than my first lap, and I'm guessing that it might have cost me about 0.6 seconds on my second lap. Despite this, the Honda Insight still managed the fastest lap out of all of the cars in this batch. If you look at the images below, you'll see a significant gap in the times I'm able to achieve with the extra power from the battery and without it. Considering that the battery for both of the hybrids in this batch can't even manage two full laps, I really have to wonder where they would fit in any list, or if we should consider them for the one-make list.

 

[snowgt]

Low Power testing continued. (Part III)

Part I
Part II

1:54,279 117 163 237 Toyota Carina ED 2.0 X 4WS '89
1:54,204 111 151 195 Hyundai Click Type-R '04
1:54,141 112 156 193L Mini Marcos GT '70
1:54,040 114 156 209L Honda Civic 1500 3door CX '79
1:53,954 112 157 221 Volkswagen Lupo 1.4 '02
1:53,933 113 157 213L Alfa Romeo Spider 1600 Duetto '66
1:53,794 113 156 210 Toyota Vitz U Euro Sport Edition '00
1:53,669 116 161 199L Nissan Skyline 2000GT-B (S54B) '67
1:53,335 114 158 222 Citroën Xsara VTR '03
1:53,193 118 162 218 Toyota Voltz S '02
1:53,170 115 159 216 Citroën C3 1.6 '02
1:53,117 117 163 234L Honda Accord Coupe '88
1:53,087 115 158 216 Toyota Vitz F '12
1:53,080 117 162 167L Chevrolet Corvette Convertible (C1) '54
1:52,867 115 159 222 Mazda Mazda2 '03
1:52,796 116 161 224L Volkswagen Polo GTI '01
1:52,755 117 160 218 Honda Fit W '01
1:52,695 116 161 220 Volkswagen New Beetle 2.0 '00
1:52,565 117 160 220 Honda Civic 1500 3door 25i '83
1:52,478 116 162 215L Mitsubishi Galant GTO MR '70
1:52,470 117 161 233 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Speciale '63
1:52,467 116 162 236 Honda 1300 Coupe 9 S '70
1:52,299 118 161 220 Toyota Vitz RS 1.5 '07
1:52,104 117 163 229 Opel Tigra 1.6i '99
1:51,927 117 161 205L Isuzu Bellett 1600 GT-R '69
1:51,869 118 163 230L Isuzu Piazza XE '81
1:51,831 117 162 217L Toyota Celica 1600GT (TA22) '70
1:51,765 116 158 210 Nissan March 12SR '07
1:51,734 118 163 216L Nissan Exa Canopy L.A. Version Type S '88
1:51,613 118 162 207L Toyota Vitz RS 1.5 '00

Limiter issues:
- Skyline '67 and Isuzu Bellett top out at SSR7, but not at Monza NC.
- Corvette C1 has severe limiter problems on something like half the tracks, so unfortunately has to be ruled out.

 

[watermelon punch]

So... before I got busy & sick... and busy being sick...

I was trying to nail down the Limbo Stick list

Limbo Stick

1. Fiat Panda Super i.e. '90
2. Volkswagen Karmann Ghia Coupe (Type-1) '68
3. Toyota Sports 800 '65
4. Nissan PAO '89
5. Ford Ka '01
6. Volvo 240 GLT Estate '88
7. Nissan SKYLINE Sport Coupe (BLRA-3) '62
8. Nissan Be-1 '87
9. Mini Cooper 1.3i '98
10. Suzuki Kei Works '02
11. Honda S800 '66
12. Mitsubishi Minica Dangan ZZ '89
13. Triumph Spitfire 1500 '74
14. Autobianchi A112 Abarth '79
15. Mitsubishi Mirage 1400GLX '78

The PAO & the Sports 800 are close.
They're just close AND different. Nothing to be done about that.
I think it's a very similar issue with the Karmann Ghia & Panda Super. Close and different.

It will just be pot luck depending on track.

OTOH... Though the Ka tests faster than the Volvo Estate sometimes, I can't imagine why.
I think the Volvo is faster.
So I think this should be the order.

Also are there still questions about these:
Nissan SKYLINE Sport Coupe (BLRA-3) '62
Nissan Be-1 '87


RE: the oddball car list.
I don't know what to do with the electric cars.
But I do think they're an interesting diversion... so we'll maybe stick the most interesting ones in the 1-make list, I don't know at this point.

 

[snowgt]

So... before I got busy & sick... and busy being sick...

I was trying to nail down the Limbo Stick list

Limbo Stick

1. Fiat Panda Super i.e. '90
2. Volkswagen Karmann Ghia Coupe (Type-1) '68
3. Toyota Sports 800 '65
4. Nissan PAO '89
5. Ford Ka '01
6. Volvo 240 GLT Estate '88
7. Nissan SKYLINE Sport Coupe (BLRA-3) '62
8. Nissan Be-1 '87
9. Mini Cooper 1.3i '98
10. Suzuki Kei Works '02
11. Honda S800 '66
12. Mitsubishi Minica Dangan ZZ '89
13. Triumph Spitfire 1500 '74
14. Autobianchi A112 Abarth '79
15. Mitsubishi Mirage 1400GLX '78

The PAO & the Sports 800 are close.
They're just close AND different. Nothing to be done about that.
I think it's a very similar issue with the Karmann Ghia & Panda Super. Close and different.

It will just be pot luck depending on track.

OTOH... Though the Ka tests faster than the Volvo Estate sometimes, I can't imagine why.
I think the Volvo is faster.
So I think this should be the order.

Also are there still questions about these:
Nissan SKYLINE Sport Coupe (BLRA-3) '62
Nissan Be-1 '87

If cars are close, I would suggest to also take a look at the straight line speeds. All tested tracks are rather slow, so there's a lot of tracks where the tendency will swing towards the more powerful car. Therefore I'd say…

- Sports 800 & PAO current order is good.
- Ford Ka & Volvo current order is good.
- Skyline '62 & Be-1 should be reversed. (Skyline does 10+km/h down straight)

I would also like to draw your attention to 2 rather large gaps that might need addressing. In my testing, I had...

- more than 2.5s between VW Karmann Ghia & Toyota Sports 800.
- more than 3s between Skyline '62 & Mini Cooper 1.3i.

I think the list would benefit from sticking a car in-between each of these pairs.

 

[watermelon punch]

I wasn't really too worried about those gaps in these cars.
Particularly not the gap higher numbered in the list.
Just because just one relatively minor mistake in any of these cars can put someone down 5 seconds anyhow.

 

[snowgt]

Low Power testing continued. (Part IV)

Part I
Part II
Part III

1:51,532 117 162 196L Isuzu 117 Coupé '68
1:51,522 117 165 242 Peugeot 307 CC Premium AVN '04
1:51,463 120 165 236 Toyota Sera '92
1:51,340 117 164 232 Mini Cooper '02
1:51,149 120 164 217 Honda City Turbo II '83
1:51,077 122 168 219 Chrysler PT Cruiser '00
1:50,989 119 162 189L Renault R8 Gordini '66
1:50,989 120 164 223L Fiat Punto HGT Abarth '00
1:50,982 120 166 229L Honda Ballade Sports CR-X 1.5i '83
1:50,767 117 158 202L Daihatsu Storia X4 '00
1:50,751 118 162 219L Mitsubishi Lancer 1600 GSR '74
1:50,585 117 162 220 Peugeot 106 Rallye '03
1:50,429 121 164 205L Volkswagen Golf I GTI '76
1:50,355 116 161 196L Lotus Europa S.2 '68
1:50,306 122 171 257 Eagle Talon Esi '97
1:50,275 119 165 227 Honda Fit RS '10
1:50,214 121 167 213L Suzuki Swift Sport '07
1:50,193 117 163 207L Mazda Cosmo Sport (L10A) '67
1:50,176 120 167 239 Renault Megane 2.0 16V '03
1:49,889 123 171 208L BMW 507 '57
1:49,876 122 170 227L Fiat Barchetta Giovane Due '00
1:49,764 119 164 238 Mazda Eunos Roadster J-Limited (NA) '91
1:49,737 121 168 243L Toyota MR2 1600 G '86
1:49,676 120 165 230 Mazda Demio Sport '10
1:49,672 123 175 255L Alfa Romeo 166 2.5 V6 24V Sportronic '98
1:49,651 126 177 262 Citroën Xantia 3.0i V6 Exclusive '00
1:49,629 121 168 243 Nissan Silvia Q's (S13) '88
1:49,596 120 165 238 Mazda MX-5 (NA) '89
1:49,591 121 166 183L Lotus Elan S1 '62
1:49,513 120 165 212L Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint GTA 1600 '65

Limiter issues:
- All of the following cars top out at SSR7, but nowhere else: Isuzu 117, Renault Gordini, Daihatsu Storia X4, Lotus Europa S.2, Mazda Cosmo (L10A), BMW 507 & Fiat Barchetta.
- Lotus Elan tops out on lots of tracks.

 

[snowgt]

Low Power testing continued. (Part V)

Part I
Part II
Part III
Part IV

1:49,431 120 166 230 Volkswagen Lupo GTI '01
1:49,397 122 168 216L Toyota Sprinter Trueno GT-Apex (AE86) '83
1:49,397 122 168 232L Toyota Corolla Levin GT-Apex (AE86) '83
1:49,395 124 171 242 Alfa Romeo 147 TI 2.0 TwinSpark '06
1:49,259 123 171 252 Nissan Fairlady Z 280Z-L 2seater (S130) '78
1:49,142 129 176 252 Renault Avantime '02
1:49,066 121 167 221L Suzuki Swift Sport '05
1:49,044 126 175 259 Toyota Celica XX 2800GT '81
1:48,973 120 167 256 Mazda Cosmo Sport (L10B) '68
1:48,941 123 168 232 Peugeot 307 XSi '04
1:48,913 124 175 257L Infiniti G20 '90
1:48,879 124 170 225L Mitsubishi Lancer EX 1800GSR IC Turbo '83
1:48,869 123 170 234L Peugeot 206 CC '01
1:48,782 126 174 235L Nissan Skyline Hard Top 2000 GT-R (KPGC10) '70
1:48,703 125 177 243L Toyota Celica GT-R (ST183, 4WS) '91
1:48,592 127 176 264 Toyota Will VS '01
1:48,564 124 172 212L Alpine A310 1600VE '73
1:48,518 124 173 247 Volkswagen Golf IV GTI '01
1:48,484 123 171 250 Nissan Silvia Q's (S13) '91
1:48,443 120 165 238 Mazda Eunos Roadster (NA Special Package) '89
1:48,436 126 174 241L Nissan Skyline 2000GT-R (KPGC110) '73
1:48,409 127 175 264 Volkswagen Bora V6 4motion '01
1:48,409 125 175 257L Nissan Primera 2.0Te '90
1:48,355 129 181 223L Peugeot 406 Coupé 3.0 V6 '98
1:48,272 122 168 228 Peugeot 106 S16 '03
1:48,268 126 176 220L Toyota Celica 2000GT-R (ST162) '86
1:48,245 118 164 235 Mazda Roadster 1600 NR-A (NB) '04
1:48,232 124 173 258 Mazda Protégé '02
1:48,219 125 173 209L Renault Megane 2.0 IDE Coupé '00
1:48,212 123 170 236 Abarth 500 '09

Limiter issues:
- Sprinter Trueno, Celica '91, A310, Peugeot 406, Celica '86 and Megane '00 top out at SSR7, but not at Monza NC, so no really problematic cars in this bunch.

Interesting fact: You would think that the Sprinter Trueno and the Corolla Levin are basically the same except for the headlights. Or so you thought. Actually, performance-wise they are identical as far as I can tell, but interestingly the red line in the Sprinter Trueno is at 7000rpm whereas in the Corolla Levin it is at 7800rpm. That still wouldn't matter, because you ideally still shift at 7000rpm also in the Corolla Levin (power curves are identical), but PD for some reason chose to somewhat arbitrarily set the limiter at the next full 500rpm past the red line for about 95% of all cars, which means that the Sprinter Trueno runs into the limiter at 7500rpm and the Corolla can rev to 8000rpm, resulting in a theoretical top speed of 216 vs 232 km/h (and the Sprinter Trueno running into the limiter on SSR7 which the Corolla Levin doesn't).

 

[tarnheld]

Actually, performance-wise they are identical as far as I can tell, but interestingly the red line in the Sprinter Trueno is at 7000rpm whereas in the Corolla Levin it is at 7800rpm.

Nice discovery! 👍 Maybe red line is factored in the mysterious PP calculation and PD wanted that 1PP difference between the cars, but still identical specs.

 

[snowgt]

Nice discovery! 👍 Maybe red line is factored in the mysterious PP calculation and PD wanted that 1PP difference between the cars, but still identical specs.

That is actually also a theory of mine. It is quite clear that one part of the PP-figure is the integral of both power & torque curves. Therefore it would only be logical, that it makes a difference, if there is a wider rpm-range available. Result would be less PP, if additional rpm-range below average power/torque and more PP, if above average in the PP-range taken into account for PP calculation.

There is some similar stuff going on with the bunch of MX-5's. If you only compare the models that should really be equivalent, sometimes there is a 1PP difference. E.g. even the MX-5 (NA) '89 (European) and the MX-5 Miata (NA) '89 (North American) have subtle differences (not in PP though). The European version has the red line at 7200 and the US version at 7500, although the two are identical in all other aspects. In this case, the limiter is also the same as far as I remember, so it's probably ok that both are allowed to be used on the same list.

By the way, I'm only testing one version of cars where there's a series of models that are virtually identical or only off by 10kg or so. This will also be the case for some Toyota/Lexus equivalents. Just makes no sense to test both, in my opinion. I've tested about 170 cars so far on CS tyres, and probably about 100 to go. Or let's see when I run out of steam.

 

[terrordog1490]

It is quite clear that one part of the PP-figure is the integral of both power & torque curves

I kinda wondered how PP was calculated. I noticed that it seems to account for HP, torque, weight, and downforce. I also noticed that it seemed to favor HP over torque, despite the fact that I could usually drive around a course faster with more torque than with more HP (ex: mid-range turbo with lower pp and more torque than high-end turbo with higher pp and more HP with same car). It makes more sense that it would look at both of the curves in their entirety, than just the peaks, but I find having a wider powerband tends to give me faster acceleration out of corners, and doesn't require me to shift as much. The way I have my custom AE86 Trueno tuned, I can take hard corners in 4th gear with a low RPM faster than if I downshift to the suggested 2nd gear, and take them at a high RPM. That's probably partly b/c I use a supercharger though. Also, downforce can give a considerable boost to PP despite all of the drag that it can add, at times, making some cars generally slower on some tracks than they would be without any aero mods.

 

[snowgt]

I kinda wondered how PP was calculated. I noticed that it seems to account for HP, torque, weight, and downforce. I also noticed that it seemed to favor HP over torque, despite the fact that I could usually drive around a course faster with more torque than with more HP (ex: mid-range turbo with lower pp and more torque than high-end turbo with higher pp and more HP with same car). It makes more sense that it would look at both of the curves in their entirety, than just the peaks, but I find having a wider powerband tends to give me faster acceleration out of corners, and doesn't require me to shift as much. The way I have my custom AE86 Trueno tuned, I can take hard corners in 4th gear with a low RPM faster than if I downshift to the suggested 2nd gear, and take them at a high RPM. That's probably partly b/c I use a supercharger though. Also, downforce can give a considerable boost to PP despite all of the drag that it can add, at times, making some cars generally slower on some tracks than they would be without any aero mods.

I think one just needs to realise that a higher PP-figure does not necessarily mean you will be faster, even in the same car with different engine configurations.

Example:
- Engine A produces the same power and torque over its whole powerband from 1000rpm to 8000rpm.
- Engine B produces the same power and torque as engine A, but only between 4000rpm and 6000rpm.

Result: Car with engine A will have a much higher PP-figure, but as long as you keep the car with engine B between 4000 and 6000rpm, there will be no difference in performance.

PP's are just a rough guide, nothing else.

 

[tarnheld]

The Limbo Stick list is ready for lift off, here are my findings from the data department:

1. Fiat Panda Super i.e. '90
2. Volkswagen Karmann Ghia Coupe (Type-1) '68
<2-3s gap>
3. Toyota Sports 800 '65
4. Nissan PAO '89
5. Volvo 240 GLT Estate '88
6. Ford Ka '01
7. Nissan SKYLINE Sport Coupe (BLRA-3) '62
8. Nissan Be-1 '87
<1-2s gap>
9. Mini Cooper 1.3i '98
10. Suzuki Kei Works '02
11. Honda S800 '66
12. Mitsubishi Minica Dangan ZZ '89
13. Triumph Spitfire 1500 '74
14. Autobianchi A112 Abarth '79
15. Mitsubishi Mirage 1400GLX '78

Some remarks: The Skyline and the Be-1 are very close TT-time-wise, and considering the Skyline has the better top speed and straight line acceleration, we could swap them in the final list. The Cooper, Kei Works and S800 are in good order, but we have only 4 tests against each other -- not really problematic at the moment, but if you like, test the three. The Volvo is special as you may know, i think it sits on the right spot, but it can be a sleeper on straighter tracks.

I think the order is good to go, what do you think? What about the Ghia-Sports 800 gap?

 

[snowgt]

The Limbo Stick list is ready for lift off, here are my findings from the data department:

1. Fiat Panda Super i.e. '90
2. Volkswagen Karmann Ghia Coupe (Type-1) '68
<2-3s gap>
3. Toyota Sports 800 '65
4. Nissan PAO '89
5. Volvo 240 GLT Estate '88
6. Ford Ka '01
7. Nissan SKYLINE Sport Coupe (BLRA-3) '62
8. Nissan Be-1 '87
<1-2s gap>
9. Mini Cooper 1.3i '98
10. Suzuki Kei Works '02
11. Honda S800 '66
12. Mitsubishi Minica Dangan ZZ '89
13. Triumph Spitfire 1500 '74
14. Autobianchi A112 Abarth '79
15. Mitsubishi Mirage 1400GLX '78

Some remarks: The Skyline and the Be-1 are very close TT-time-wise, and considering the Skyline has the better top speed and straight line acceleration, we could swap them in the final list. The Cooper, Kei Works and S800 are in good order, but we have only 4 tests against each other -- not really problematic at the moment, but if you like, test the three. The Volvo is special as you may know, i think it sits on the right spot, but it can be a sleeper on straighter tracks.

I think the order is good to go, what do you think? What about the Ghia-Sports 800 gap?

The gap between Ghia and Sports 800 could only really be stuffed with one particular car, as it looks, and that would be the Daihatsu Move CX '95, which is not particularly desirable to have at #3 on the list. I think we should try how this works out in real racing in its current state.

I thought the Be-1/Skyline to Mini Cooper gap to be the more worrying one at more than 3s, but if data from others suggests the gap wasn't as big, maybe that means that the Mini is not that easy to drive fast.

Due to the drastic differences in relative power on this list, I would suggest though that tracks with steep climbs should be avoided with the Limbo Sticks. Otherwise the results will be pretty much predetermined (as we saw in test races). I remember hitting a low speed of 31km/h at Matterhorn in the Karmann Ghia, and having to shift into 1st gear. It might be hilarious once or twice, but sporting value it has not.

 

[tarnheld]

I thought the Be-1/Skyline to Mini Cooper gap to be the more worrying one at more than 3s, but if data from others suggests the gap wasn't as big, maybe that means that the Mini is not that easy to drive fast.

Yes, that gap is also a little worrying. But thanks to your your relentless testing, we already have some gap-fillers available. The Fiat 500 1.2 8V Lounge SS '08 would fit nicely, but is already assigned to new Low Power list. The Daihatsu MOVE SR-XX 4WD '97 from the old Low Power list would fit too.

But two new cars means one has to be cut. What about the Mirage?

We could do a test race today at the Track day -- if the track will be flat.

EDIT: misunderstood your fill suggestion for the Ghia-800 gap.

 

[tarnheld]

We did a race with the Limbo Stick list on SSR5 yesterday. The big Ghia-800 gap wasn't worrying here -- but the Volvo really doesn't fit in the bunch. Either the Volvo TT times are flawed or the tested tracks don't show the massive straight line advantage regularly noticed in races. @amarynceos destroyed the field in the Volvo in only 3 laps, he managed to create a gap of 13s! This is not the only example, the Matterhorn test showed the same thing. I think it should be cut from this list.

On the other hand the Panda is really underpowered on longer straights. What do you think?

 

[snowgt]

View attachment 347072

We did a race with the Limbo Stick list on SSR5 yesterday. The big Ghia-800 gap wasn't worrying here -- but the Volvo really doesn't fit in the bunch. Either the Volvo TT times are flawed or the tested tracks don't show the massive straight line advantage regularly noticed in races. @amarynceos destroyed the field in the Volvo in only 3 laps, he managed to create a gap of 13s! This is not the only example, the Matterhorn test showed the same thing. I think it should be cut from this list.

On the other hand the Panda is really underpowered on longer straights. What do you think?

I think the result is misleading. You've got Amarynceus in the #5 car against you in the #4 and tacom in #2. He should be dominating that race and that's what he apparently did.

If you normalise the result with the parity assignments, he's got an advantage of 1(from car)+2(from parity ranking) over you. Against tacom it might be closer as he's got an advantage of 3(car)-3(parity). I don't know how you started that race, but if tacom came from the back, the gap is all explainable.

Also bear in mind that on tracks with more tight turns, the Volvo will suffer badly. In my testing it was 4s faster than the Karmann Ghia, and Motegi is tighter than SSR5.

The Volvo is fast on straights, but I don't think it needs to be cut.