Microsoft drops all DRM.

[Wardez]

Yeah, people fail to realize the obvious: if I remove the embedded webcam lens from my laptop, it doesn't freak out and disable itself, the Xbone does. Great points, you too F1fan.

 

[F1 fan]

Simple answer: I don't know, and neither does anyone who doesn't work for MS.

However, would you consider the microphone & camera on your cellphone or your webcam to be 'always on'? And if so, why were you comfortable buying them...?

I was comfortable as it is a small device that can be left anywhere. You have more control over a phone. My wife and I leave our phones on a table in the hall downstairs when not using them. The only thing they're going to record without my knowledge is my cat walking by or some grainy footage of the phone bouncing around in my jacket pocket.

Now take the Kinect. It (currently) has to be connected to the console whether it's off or on. There is also the possibility that the console will force you to "configure" Kinect if the camera is obscured (which my phone doesn't). Now it's possible that ms may enable users to leave Kinect in the box. I really hope they do but until then, it's still a wide angle, high quality camera that sits above the tv, is pointed at family and can gather more data about you than a cell phone camera ever could. I'd never allow that thing to be pointed at my wife in our own home and she would be creeped out about it to no end.

So there you have it. I've already decided on a ps4 so I'm not really considering buying an xbone anyway, but I may do at some point as I have more money to spare now. However, the only way I'd buy one is if the Kinect could be left in a box or preferably, made optional and sold separately. Taping it up won't do it for me. There is no chance in hell I'd let any company invade the privacy of my wife and I like that.

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

Now take the Kinect. It (currently) has to be connected to the console whether it's off or on. There is also the possibility that the console will force you to "configure" Kinect if the camera is obscured (which my phone doesn't). Now it's possible that ms may enable users to leave Kinect in the box. I really hope they do but until then, it's still a wide angle, high quality camera that sits above the tv, is pointed at family and can gather more data about you than a cell phone camera ever could.
(...)
However, the only way I'd buy one is if the Kinect could be left in a box or preferably, made optional and sold separately. Taping it up won't do it for me. There is no chance in hell I'd let any company invade the privacy of my wife and I like that.

I see where you're coming from with this, but I still say that saying Kinect is 'always on' is at best a gross misrepresentation of facts. Saying that it's always connected to the console sure, but not always on. If you're really that uncomfortable just having such a device in your house, powered down and inert, then props to you for sticking to your ideals.

I just have to say again though, as has been said before, do you really think that MS would say that they let you turn it off, and then try to keep it running when it's supposedly off? Someone somewhere would find out about that, and the backlash would be worse than if they just didn't let you turn it off in the first place. Why would they risk that? Beyond that, why would MS actually want to try that hard to spy on you? There will be millions of Xbones sold, and I would be surprised if 10% of those actually bother to turn the Kinect off. If MS wants to spy, there's plenty of people who will let them do it, they don't need to try and sneak it in on the few people who care enough to try and avoid it.

Off is off, it's the only thing that makes sense logically. But if you really think that the possibility of someone hacking in and turning it on is real enough to warrant this level of mistrust, then go ahead and keep on thinking that. Just please, stop saying Kinect is 'always on' when it isn't.

 

[Eks]

Good news, now I have a reason to buy an Xbox One. Forza 5 here I come! 👍

 

[Wardez]

Off is off, it's the only thing that makes sense logically. But if you really think that the possibility of someone hacking in and turning it on is real enough to warrant this level of mistrust, then go ahead and keep on thinking that. Just please, stop saying Kinect is 'always on' when it isn't.

Your definition of of is so skewed man. It's like, think of a waterhose, if the water valve is turned on, but I have a cap on the end so no water gets out, is this off to you?

 

[Darren.]

Microsoft have made a step in the right direction, guess they were listening after all. I'm fully prepared to buy an Xbox One in mid 2014, when I have the cash.

 

[Cragapple]

They did good with this and it's a real blow to Sony's marketing for the PS4, I doubt they will return fire at this point. My reasons for buying a PS4 over the Xbox One were not to do with the DRM/used games side of it but things are going to be much more interesting from here onwards, especially considering MS have got some good-looking exclusives for their system.

 

[DG_Silva]

Ok, so one time with new console, but MS hasn't say anything about game disc installation being possible on multiple console.

Yes they have, it's no longer possible thanks to the tin foil hat brigade. You need the disc in the console in the drive to play the game.

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

Your definition of of is so skewed man. It's like, think of a waterhose, if the water valve is turned on, but I have a cap on the end so no water gets out, is this off to you?

If you turn off your TV, is it off? Or your lights? Or your computer? Or your radio? They're still physically plugged in, so they're 'always on' too then right? Or do you physically unplug every device you own when you aren't using it? And for that matter, what exactly is stopping you from physically unplugging the Kinect when you aren't using the xbone?

This is getting rediculous. How is this concept difficult to grasp? You can turn it off. You don't question when you turn anything else off, so why the special exception?

 

[kennylmao]

No. It isn't.

The Kinect doesn't require any power to listen for an "Xbox On" command to switch on your XBOX ONE?

Whoa, what a revolutionary device!

 

[Wardez]

Special exception? Really? How about the fact that it's always listening and can listen for anything, not just "key voice commands." You can only turn it off if, like you said, unplug it while it's off. Otherwise you'll turn it "off" while trying to watch a movie or play games without or whatever, but that's not truly off, it's on standby.

Once the console's finally out and in your home, you'll see exactly how much control you have.

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

Special exception? Really? How about the fact that it's always listening and can listen for anything, not just "key voice commands." You can only turn it off if, like you said, unplug it while it's off. Otherwise you'll turn it "off" while trying to watch a movie or play games without or whatever, but that's not truly off, it's on standby.

Once the console's finally out and in your home, you'll see exactly how much control you have.

Ok, fine. How about this:
Microsoft (who manufacture the product) have said, repeatedly, that the Kinect can be turned off. You are saying it cannot be. Burden of proof lies with the accuser: prove to me that the Kinect can not be turned off. Prove that you are right, and Microsoft is lying to people. Prove that you are not knowingly posting misleading information. Prove what you are saying. I want facts.

Unless you can prove that it can't be turned off, why should anyone believe it, especially when MS have said it can be? As I said earlier, it would be worse for them to say you can and have it be disproved than it would be to just say you can't turn it off. So prove that that is exactly what is happening.

And @Kenny: try reading sometime. It might help you stay caught up on what is being said in the press, like MS specifically saying that you can turn off the function that listens for commands like that. Or the part where MS said the xbone as a whole (Kinect included) can be put in a state wherein it draws zero power when not in use in order to comply with laws in Germany and other countries. You're 100% right that the Kinect can't function without power, so how exactly would it function when not drawing power?

 

[J-PaP]

Great to see the reversal on policy as it was really the wrong step for the future for the consumer. I don't understand why they wouldn't have announced this at e3 though. Surely they knew they were heading in the wrong direction from the initial console announcement.

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

Great to see the reversal on policy as it was really the wrong step for the future for the consumer. I don't understand why they wouldn't have announced this at e3 though. Surely they knew they were heading in the wrong direction from the initial console announcement.

Honestly, I think they really underestimated the backlash. I'm sure they thought that there'd be a bit of pushback on it, but I think the scale took them by surprise. Otherwise, why go that direction in the first place?

The online/drm/digital distribution battle is one that Steam has been fighting (and largely winning, slowly) on PC for awhile, so I think MS thought people would be more open to the idea. It's obviously where things are heading in the future (at least the online/digital distribution end) so I would bet MS thought people would see it as forward thinking. They forgot that gamers are some of the most short-sighted people on the planet and that we hold pretty tight to our ideals.

Steam took a lot of flak at first, and really has taken awhile to get where it is now, and lots of small steps along the way. MS tried to jump in with both feet, and now they're realizing that maybe that wasn't such a great idea.

 

[Nattefrost]

Honestly, I think they really underestimated the backlash. I'm sure they thought that there'd be a bit of pushback on it, but I think the scale took them by surprise. Otherwise, why go that direction in the first place?

The online/drm/digital distribution battle is one that Steam has been fighting (and largely winning, slowly) on PC for awhile, so I think MS thought people would be more open to the idea. Its obviously where things are heading in the future (at least the online/digital distribution end) so I would be MS thought people would see it as forward thinking. They forgot that gamers are some of the most short-sighted people on the planet and that we hold pretty tight to our ideals.

Steam took a lot of flak at first, and really has taken awhile to get where it is now, and lots of small steps along the way. MS tried to jump in with both feet, and now they're realizing that maybe that wasn't such a great idea.

The comparison to Steam doesn't fly, as Steam is only one option on a platform that supports a multitude of options, including traditional disc based games. And that's the issue, gamers like choice. I wouldn't call us shortsighted, we just don't like things forced on us. Steam has proved itself on a platform where people started using it by choice, because it actually offered us plenty of reasons to use it, e.g. the fantastic pricing schemes.

We gamers will never take kindly to platform holders taking choices away from us. If MS had said from the start we could just trade in disc based games like always and then implemented a digital download service alongside it where games were bound to one account only, no one would've batted an eyelid. You'd still have the traditional disc based game market but plenty of people would use the digital service as well, because it's simply more convenient if you have a good connection. But destroying game ownership without offering an alternative was always a tragically terrible idea and they deserved every bit of criticism they got for it.

 

[phillgt2002]

Good news, now I have a reason to buy an Xbox One. Forza 5 here I come! 👍

👍

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

The comparison to Steam doesn't fly, as Steam is only one option on a platform that supports a multitude of options, including traditional disc based games. And that's the issue, gamers like choice. I wouldn't call us shortsighted, we just don't like things forced on us. Steam has proved itself on a platform where people started using it by choice, because it actually offered us plenty of reasons to use it, e.g. the fantastic pricing schemes.

We gamers will never take kindly to platform holders taking choices away from us. If MS had said from the start we could just trade in disc based games like always and then implemented a digital download service alongside it where games were bound to one account only, no one would've batted an eyelid. You'd still have the traditional disc based game market but plenty of people would use the digital service as well, because it's simply more convenient if you have a good connection. But destroying game ownership without offering an alternative was always a tragically terrible idea and they deserved every bit of criticism they got for it.

I dont disagree at all honestly. MS deserve every bit of criticism they got, because you're right: they tried to take the choice out of it. The saying goes, give a man enough rope and he'll hang himself; MS tried to just hang gamers, and gamers fought back. If MS had just given them the rope (digital distribution) and let that be it, I don't think it would've been news. Honestly, they probably would have been (and should be) praised for giving people the option to buy every game digitally on launch day.

The mistake was trying to make that the only way, by making physical games essentially just a token to get the digital version with.

Now, if you'll excuse me, it's super late where I'm at, I've been getting bugged about bed for like 2 hours already, so I think I'm gonna call it a night.

 

[F1 fan]

I see where you're coming from with this, but I still say that saying Kinect is 'always on' is at best a gross misrepresentation of facts. Saying that it's always connected to the console sure, but not always on. If you're really that uncomfortable just having such a device in your house, powered down and inert, then props to you for sticking to your ideals.

The fact that plugging it into the console is still mandatory makes me uncomfortable. For a device that can supposedly be turned off, why does it still have to be plugged in?

I just have to say again though, as has been said before, do you really think that MS would say that they let you turn it off, and then try to keep it running when it's supposedly off?

Why does it still have to be plugged into the console then? It takes its power from the console and is on standby. If Microsoft truly would let you turn it off, they'd let you unplug it and put it in the bin without restricting the console itself. Put it this way, if a complete stranger came to your home and said "I want to put this "fake" camera in your home. It's just a security measure so I won't be monitoring you at all. Don't even think about removing it though" what would your reaction be?

Do you truly trust a device that is mandatory even though it can be turned off? Who knows what's hidden in all that firmware.

Someone somewhere would find out about that, and the backlash would be worse than if they just didn't let you turn it off in the first place. Why would they risk that? Beyond that, why would MS actually want to try that hard to spy on you? There will be millions of Xbones sold, and I would be surprised if 10% of those actually bother to turn the Kinect off. If MS wants to spy, there's plenty of people who will let them do it, they don't need to try and sneak it in on the few people who care enough to try and avoid it.

They're forcing console owners to put a high definition camera in their homes. Regardless of the fact that you can "turn it off", it's completely unnecessary. And need I remind you that a lone Scottish man was able to hack the US governments security? What's going to stop a hacker from hacking your device?

I seriously hope that a team of hackers prove that this can be done so Microsoft remove the requirement. I'm not encouraging invasion of privacy though. Maybe they should find a volunteer and attempt to hack his/her system.

This brings up a question. What would you do? Say there was an incident in which a Kinect was hacked even though it was "off" and the footage was posted online. Would you continue to use it as if nothing happened or would you act differently?

Off is off, it's the only thing that makes sense logically. But if you really think that the possibility of someone hacking in and turning it on is real enough to warrant this level of mistrust, then go ahead and keep on thinking that. Just please, stop saying Kinect is 'always on' when it isn't.

Off = standby. Unless of course you unplug it from the mains. I'll come back to this later.

Yes they have, it's no longer possible thanks to the tin foil hat brigade. You need the disc in the console in the drive to play the game.

It was inevitable and a small price to pay for the loss of multiple "features" (restrictions). Calling people names achieves nothing.

If you turn off your TV, is it off? Or your lights? Or your computer? Or your radio? They're still physically plugged in, so they're 'always on' too then right? Or do you physically unplug every device you own when you aren't using it?

There is a big difference between a tv/radio and a high definition camera that even while turned "off", still requires to be plugged into your console in order for you to play games.

For the record, I don't always unplug my tv or radio, but those devices don't have the power to watch me.

And that brings up another thing. Microsoft will no doubt make users agree to a disclaimer about the mandatory Kinect. What about the other people in the household? What about their rights to privacy?

And for that matter, what exactly is stopping you from physically unplugging the Kinect when you aren't using the xbone?

Laziness. The same reason I don't unplug my tv when I'm finished using it. However, none of those devices have the power to spy on me.

This is getting rediculous. How is this concept difficult to grasp? You can turn it off. You don't question when you turn anything else off, so why the special exception?

Because a tv doesn't have the power to spy on me. What is it about this concept that is so hard to understand? More to the point, how can you defend such a thing? How many people live in your household? Will you explain the risks of Kinect to them?

 

[Wardez]

Ok, fine. How about this:
Microsoft (who manufacture the product) have said, repeatedly, that the Kinect can be turned off. You are saying it cannot be. Burden of proof lies with the accuser: prove to me that the Kinect can not be turned off. Prove that you are right, and Microsoft is lying to people. Prove that you are not knowingly posting misleading information. Prove what you are saying. I want facts.

Unless you can prove that it can't be turned off, why should anyone believe it, especially when MS have said it can be? As I said earlier, it would be worse for them to say you can and have it be disproved than it would be to just say you can't turn it off. So prove that that is exactly what is happening.

And @Kenny: try reading sometime. It might help you stay caught up on what is being said in the press, like MS specifically saying that you can turn off the function that listens for commands like that. Or the part where MS said the xbone as a whole (Kinect included) can be put in a state wherein it draws zero power when not in use in order to comply with laws in Germany and other countries. You're 100% right that the Kinect can't function without power, so how exactly would it function when not drawing power?

Resorting to calling me out for not having the schematics to the Xbox One, great stuff.

I said it was possible that the Kinect could still be on even though the user thinks it's off, then debated what proper "off" was. Not saying it's impossible to turn off.

You keep bringing up Microsoft's word for some reason. "Microsoft said" this, that. Why would eat up anything they're saying, in any regard, when they've already been caught out lying hard? Nelson said, " We can't just flip a switch to turn off DRM, the console was built around it."

SURE it was! Same argument Simcity made during their whole downfall, and guess what happened? It took all of 2 lines of code in order to turn off the DRM.

These guys [MS] know the Kinect 2 being on standby mode (I have never said it's always on) at all times while the console has power is a touchy subject, so of course they're gonna tell you what you want to hear sir.

Again, we both can't know what the ultimate truth of the matter is until the console is out, then we'll really see for ourselves. I hope you're the right one.

 

[Spagetti69]

What about PS4 controller recording fingerprints via touch screen lol.

Vita has cameras, 3DS has a camera.

Time will tell I suppose. If I appear on you tube in my undies I want a big compo claim. He he.

Edit, damn I've even used my phone in the bath.
No more of that.

 

[F1 fan]

As for the burden of proof, it has already theoretically been met as far as I'm concerned. The Kinect has to remain plugged into the console at all times when the console is on. Regardless of the fact that you can select a software option to turn it off, it has to be plugged in. More sophisticated security has been hacked in the past. And what about windows? The "uncrackable" XP was cracked in a matter of hours.

Edit: and apparently windows 8 has been cracked too. Quelle surprise.

 

[Spagetti69]

As for the burden of proof, it has already theoretically been met as far as I'm concerned. The Kinect has to remain plugged into the console at all times when the console is on. Regardless of the fact that you can select a software option to turn it off, it has to be plugged in. More sophisticated security has been hacked in the past. And what about windows? The "uncrackable" XP was cracked in a matter of hours.

I know the poor vita is in a minority but why wasn't these issues raised with its forward facing camera, I'm curious.

 

[F1 fan]

I know the poor vita is in a minority but why wasn't these issues raised with its forward facing camera, I'm curious.

See my post about mobile devices vs a high definition camera in your living room/bedroom.

 

[Spagetti69]

See my post about mobile devices vs a high definition camera in your living room/bedroom.

Yeah just read that, lots of people play there vitas on the toilet though, potentially worse scenario.

Phones have a loudspeaker function plus GPS tracking facility and knowledge of your contacts.

Scary times.

 

[IceMan PJN]

I had insisted for a very long time that Microsoft wouldn't name their latest console "Xbox 720" though I didn't know what the name would be, and some time back they proved me right. Following the surge of overwhelming hatred I predicted that Microsoft would reverse their positions on things players hated, and they did that too. Friends argued that it would look bad doing a 180, but I said they could spin it as "Hey, we listen to our fans and value their feedback" and this also came to pass.

I'm on a roll.
:-)

Oddly, even reversing positions still earned huge backlash. They do this and players rage, but then go the other way and players still rage. It's basically a no-win scenario.

 

[Samus]

Good move but price is still the biggest factor for me so PS4 will still be first choice.

 

[Eks]

Good move but price is still the biggest factor for me so PS4 will still be first choice.

If Kinect isn't included with the console then the price could drop down to match the PS4. I don't see them doing that though.

 

[TokoTurismo]

Awesome MS got their heads out of their *****, but I still won't be picking up an XB1, since I'll be getting the PS4 (XB1 is too expensive). Than again I usually get one generation console each year so PS4 will be my second one after the Wii U, and than it'll be the XB1 (perfect time for the price to drop).

 

[dzidza]

I had insisted for a very long time that Microsoft wouldn't name their latest console "Xbox 720" though I didn't know what the name would be, and some time back they proved me right. Following the surge of overwhelming hatred I predicted that Microsoft would reverse their positions on things players hated, and they did that too. Friends argued that it would look bad doing a 180, but I said they could spin it as "Hey, we listen to our fans and value their feedback" and this also came to pass.

I'm on a roll.
:-)

Oddly, even reversing positions still earned huge backlash. They do this and players rage, but then go the other way and players still rage. It's basically a no-win scenario.

Of course people still rage, because they are laying their customers. MS said that they build the system around DRM, 24h internet check, and that it can not be switch that easily. But in a few days that customers raged (and preorder polls showed PS4 is winning) , they managed to switch it with only one required day one patch. MS is not trust worthy at this point of time. There are no guarantees they MS will not impose DRM again on X1 in near future (hopefully they won't).

 

[Cragapple]

I thought you needed Kinect for the system to work ?, so how can they offer it without one ?