Mideast "peace"

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by DGB454
Exactly. It doesn't matter who had it first, last or inbetween. What matters is who is in it now.

And the Palestinians were enjoying it until the 1940's when it got swiped. Remember, Palestine (and most of the Arab world) refuses to recognise Israel - according to them, they're still in it now. Same the other way around and the western world.

the Third Riech coulda stomped Europe into oblivion,... and you would say that they deserved the land they conqured?

Sure. If you can forcefully take it and hold on to it, it's yours. Why not?

Edit: DGB got it so much better in the previous post...

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by DGB454
If they can go in and take it then it's theirs.

OK, so now the gloves are off. You're a "might makes right" person?

 

[Red Eye Racer]

Originally posted by DGB454
It wasn't Christians doing it in the name of Jesus. Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

OMG dude,.... denial city......

anyone else wanna back me on this one?

I say again,.... THE WHITE MAN SLAUGHTERED 25 MILLION NATIVES IN THE AMERICAS IN A MATTER OF 300 YEARS, FOR GOLD AND THE GLORY OF JESUS CHRIST THEIR LORD.

Anyone who took an American History (most likely in College) that discussed the settling of the continent knows this,....

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by neon_duke
OK, so now the gloves are off. You're a "might makes right" person?

On wars: isn't every rational person?

It isn't the person with the best morals, or the right idea. It's the one with the firepower.

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
OMG dude,.... denial city......

anyone else wanna back me on this one?

I say again,.... THE WHITE MAN SLAUGHTERED 25 MILLION NATIVES IN THE AMERICAS IN A MATTER OF 300 YEARS, FOR GOLD AND THE GLORY OF JESUS CHRIST THEIR LORD.

Anyone who took an American History (most likely in College) that discussed the settling of the continent knows this,....

I took four years of history, and I don't remember gold or Jesus being a reason for the killing of the natives.

 

[DGB454]

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[DGB454]

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[Red Eye Racer]

Originally posted by M5Power
I took four years of history, and I don't remember gold or Jesus being a reason for the killing of the natives.

Short version = they waltzed into the villages with a bible in one hand and a musket in the other,... they presented an ultimadum,... convert, or die.

You obviuosly went to either a religious university,.... or didnt pay attention worth a crap.

 

[Duke]

For what it's worth, DGB, I did say that Israel had a right to exist. I don't hate them at all. I just don't think they have more right to live there than the Arab Palestinians who were there until 1947/8. Why should they? There's no logical reason why they should.

In all honesty the UN plan could have worked if it had been an equitable distribution of territory. But it wasn't, and Israel's "preemptive defense" strategy has only made that worse.

It's a shame to hear you talking this way. I honestly thought better of you than that, although we have some other fundamental disagreements.

 

[Red Eye Racer]

Originally posted by DGB454
Where does it say anything about doing that in the name of Jesus? They did it in the name of greed.

But that's ok RER. It's easy to say that Christians are to blame. I understand.

see post #38

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by M5Power
On wars: isn't every rational person?

It isn't the person with the best morals, or the right idea. It's the one with the firepower.

No, every rational person is not, unless I'm mistaken about my own rationality.

Superior firepower makes victory, assuming it is used well. It does not make right in any way, shape, or form.

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
Short version = they waltzed into the villages with a bible in one hand and a musket in the other,... they presented an ultimadum,... convert, or die.

There's no question that the situation described above happened, but it certainly never happened in North America. From what I recall, it was somewhat common in parts of South America, and various groups (of all sorts of religions) did it through out Europe's history, most notably the Vikings, although nobody ever converted and they were all killed anyway.

What time period/years are you talking about?

You obviuosly went to either a religious university,.... or didnt pay attention worth a crap.

I went to an Ivy League university, since you mention it - where'd you go?

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by neon_duke
No, every rational person is not, unless I'm mistaken about my own rationality.

Superior firepower makes victory, assuming it is used well. It does not make right in any way, shape, or form.

Some would argue that with victory and power comes right. It seems few Iraqis thought Saddam Hussein was right, but he was so powerful they didn't question him - making his administration believe it was 'right.'

 

[Red Eye Racer]

Originally posted by M5Power


There's no question that the situation described above happened,

1. but it certainly never happened in North America.
From what I recall, it was relatively common in parts of South America, and various groups did it through out Europe's history, most notably the Vikings, although nobody ever converted and they were all killed anyway.

2. What time period/years are you talking about?



I went to an Ivy League university, since you mention it - where'd you go?

1. sure it did,.... it was called small pox

2. 1500ad - 1900ad,... so, my bad, 400 years,.. must be my crappy Grand Rapids Community College education at work eh?

 

[DGB454]

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[DGB454]

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[DGB454]

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[1X83Z]

Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
1. sure it did,.... it was called small pox

You can't possibly believe that was completely intentional. Although it's a bit too convenient to believe they had no idea they'd infect the natives. Probably mostly ignorance and stupidity.

Edit - heh, this sounds a bit hostile. I meant ignorance and stupidity on the part of the colonizers, not on the part of Red Eye Racer.

 

[Red Eye Racer]

<-sigh->

where, who, Ivy league, Big Ten, GRCC,.... it's all the same.

I guess it's how you interpret it,.. just like everything else.

FYI,... thats was the moment in time, when I took that course,... that I gave up all respect for the idea of spreading the name of jesus,... SOMTHING had to have altered that perspective,.... and it wasnt because we asked the natives nicely.........

 

[Red Eye Racer]

Originally posted by M5Power


You can't possibly believe that was completely intentional. Although it's a bit too convenient to believe they had no idea they'd infect the natives. Probably mostly ignorance and stupidity. [/B]

omg you just dont quit........

there are recorded cases of the white man waltzing into the villages holding a glass jar with a lid on it. The natives knew of the dreadful disease, just as the settlers did. The white man would present the jar to the natives and demand there goods and land,... makeing them believe that they had harnessed the power of small pox 'in a jar',....

that's just ONE example,.... there's also pleanty of evidence to support the notion that the settlers intentionally introduced the disease via human subjects, directly into the tribes.


We can go on-and-on about this,... you know it's true,.. your just ashamed to admit it,... gimme a few hours to get home and reaserch,... I'll bring you and your stuck-up Ivy league ass all the information you could possibly handle.

Oh ta-ta moo-moo and poo-poo,... Ivy league,.. jesus christ,.... if you were anymore stuck on yourself,.. you'd be inside out

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by DGB454
I think the land should be divided between the 2 but I know the other neighboring nations won't be happy until Israel is gone.

The same could be argued of Israel: they won't be happy until every Palestinian is gone. I do not hold the Arab world blameless in any way, but Israel needs to take responsibility for the fallout of its attitude.

Don't try and make me feel bad because you "thought better of me than that". Because I don't think the same as you it's a shame?

Not at all. I've never tried to make you feel bad for being a Christian, much as I disagree with religion. It's a shame, because your statements mean that you think (or at least are pretending) that violence and force are a valid and desirable basis for human relationships. That's very sad.

We have different values. I don't think less of you because of some of your ideas. I may be amused by them at times but I don't think any less of you because them.

Unlike your religion, this particular value is one that requires me to think less of you, if you truly believe it. It's one of those pesky "principles" again.

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by M5Power
Some would argue that with victory and power comes right. It seems few Iraqis thought Saddam Hussein was right, but he was so powerful they didn't question him - making his administration believe it was 'right.'

I would argue that that entire system was not rational.

 

[Red Eye Racer]

by for now everyone,... good luck with solving all the worlds problems. 👍

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by neon_duke
No, every rational person is not, unless I'm mistaken about my own rationality.

Superior firepower makes victory, assuming it is used well. It does not make right in any way, shape, or form.

But the looser tends to disappear into obscurity and irrelevance. Calling somthing utterly powerless and irrelevant "right" is just a waste. The victor writes history. In battles that still rage, you are correct. And apparently Israel's power isn't sufficient to win definatively. If it was they would. But everybody knows they can't. ANd being able to, but fearing the consequences too much qualifies as "not powerful enough".

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by DGB454
Man you just realy hate the Israelites don't you?

I don't know why you'd think that.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by DGB454
Is that kind of like Indian reservations? The land was just handed to them wasn't it?

No. It was all that was left after most of it was stolen.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by DGB454
Exactly. It doesn't matter who had it first, last or inbetween. What matters is who is in it now.

Both are in it now.

 

[Sage]

Originally posted by milefile
But the looser tends to...

"Loser".

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by DGB454
It wasn't Christians doing it in the name of Jesus. Where do you guys come up with this stuff?

How about this. An all Christian force stole all the land and resources form an all non-Christian population.

But as Milefile sad..the land was handed to them. They didn't take it.[/b]

I never said that.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by Sage
"Loser".

BUSTED!