Monday Night Touring Car Challenge

[chuyler1]

just a thought, boost probably won't work if two classes are on the track at the same time. It will work fine for the fast class, but the slow class won't get any benefit from it since they will all be boosted.

I think we should have at least 6 in each class. I like racing a full grid of cars since it improves the probability that you'll have someone to race against.

I also think we need a equalizing system for subsequent races. In my GT500 series this was done by putting the top 3 finishers on lower grade tires at the start of the race. However, that caused the drivers to lose 2+ seconds per lap so most just made a pit stop on lap 1 and essentially began the race with a 30 second handicap. The good drivers (myself, Nic, GrayFox) could catch the not-so-good drivers 3/4 the way through the race if they ran fast and clean.

I'm wondering if front downforce could be used to perform a more equalizing handicap. Dropping the downforce by 5-10 clicks in the front might slow down the cornering speeds of the expert drivers enough to allow the slower drivers to keep pace with them the entire race. We'd have to test it though.

 

[dabneyd]

How can we enforce that though? You could just turn your downforce down after the race ends.

 

[Nicktune]

Im not sure what Nik wants to run

Well...I found a mazda atenza touring (might suit the regulation better)
For GT class I don't know yet...
What race length are we looking for?
Tires handicap would be a good idea...

 

[dabneyd]

For GT class I don't know yet...
What race length are we looking for?

You can run the Evo in the GT class. I'd like to do 75 minutes. I think that would require more than one pit stop.

 

[spooble]

When reading through the forums looking for a series to join, I remember one that had an equalizing system that seemed interesting. The cars all started at the same PP. After each race, the cars that did well received a pp penalty. The cars that finished poorly received a pp boost, and the middle of the pack stayed the same. I don't remember if it varied by position (1st -10pp, 2nd -8pp, 3rd -6pp, etc.) or if was just divided into chunks (1st-4th -10pp, 5th-10th +0pp, 11th-16th +10pp). I think for it to work you'd need to base the penalty/boost on overall points not single races.

Another one I saw used ballast as the penalty for the front runners.

I don't have experience with either system, but just thought I'd throw them out there.

 

[Nicktune]

The problem with pp and weight penalty is that you can play around them to your advantage...Tires you can't.👍

 

[chuyler1]

Every system except tire penalties requires good faith. You can't prove drivers were running a certain hp/weight/pp during the race.

With tires, the replay will reveal any cheaters...but the handicap is pretty extreme. Good drivers can still qualify mid field, but they simply cannot race mid field for more than a lap or two. If they want to win, they have to pit for better tires. However the reason the system gave fast drivers hope was because you could change to softer tires. Everyone started on mediums and could switch to softs on their first pit. top drivers had to start on hards. I'm not sure this will work since these cars are pretty boring to race on mediums and softs. I guess we could make fast drivers start on SS tires, but I think it will put them too far behind. We would have to test that as well.

 

[Nicktune]

SS tires.....We would have to test that as well.

Good idea...At first I thought this series was on SS (my evo was tune on/for SS)..The difference between SS and RH is not huge.

 

[spooble]

I would rather have neck and neck racing (similar pace), instead of dumping the fast guys a half a lap back and them just run hot laps trying to catch the leaders before time runs out.

A way to handle the multiple pp's would be set the room to 480pp, let those racers enter. Bump it to 490pp, let those racers enter. Etc. Once in, you're not allowed to exit back to the lobby. As far as ballast goes... I'm not sure if weight shows up on replay or not.

I'm down with whatever. Just throwing that out there. It's going to be fun either way.

 

[chuyler1]

I'm with you spooble. I like action on the track, and dumping the leaders at the back doesn't help anyone. Putting them in cars that accelerate too slow to pass makes for better racing. When I was in the Mazda6, Nic was on my tail the entire time. He couldn't pass me, but I had to race clean to keep him behind.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Me spooble and garris want to run open class.

No, I want to run in the lower class, cause I thought that is where the crappy drivers would be. If all the good drivers are going to go to the lower class, then... I guess I could see being in the upper class.

Just means I'm more likely to crash, I imagine.

 

[leadbedr]

Thought you wanted to run the open class

 

[dabneyd]

Open class testing on Spa tonight!

 

[Menown]

For clarification, what are the limits for the open class?

I have some testing for a race tomorrow, but hopefully I can drop by later and blast some TCs around.

 

[dabneyd]

For clarification, what are the limits for the open class?

I have some testing for a race tomorrow, but hopefully I can drop by later and blast some TCs around.

No limit yet, check the GT spreadsheet at the top of the thread.

 

[chuyler1]

I really don't think using pp to equalize the cars is going to work...unless you eliminate downforce from the equation. Drivers could sacrifice DF for HP and the series will be more about tuning than driving. I'd suggest going with a power/weight combo or pp based on the lowest or highest downforce settings.

 

[dabneyd]

I really don't think using pp to equalize the cars is going to work...unless you eliminate downforce from the equation. Drivers could sacrifice DF for HP and the series will be more about tuning than driving. I'd suggest going with a power/weight combo or pp based on the lowest or highest downforce settings.

Isn't that what we were saying earlier? 300HP/1000kg for the Touring class and 500/1000 for the GT class?

 

[chuyler1]

ok, wasn't sure if we were still going that route. 500 is a bit high for the top class though, I think 450-475 would be better...but i'm not going to run that class so it doesn't really matter to me. It's just when I think 500hp, I think of the GT500 cars...which are crazy fast compared to a 300hp touring car.

 

[dabneyd]

ok, wasn't sure if we were still going that route. 500 is a bit high for the top class though, I think 450-475 would be better...but i'm not going to run that class so it doesn't really matter to me. It's just when I think 500hp, I think of the GT500 cars...which are crazy fast compared to a 300hp touring car.

Yeah, <500 is where it's at.

 

[chuyler1]

We just don't want too much difference between the cars...because when lapping it could really mess things up...and also if they get too far ahead the lower class cars won't get to finish their race.

 

[dabneyd]

~50pp?

 

[Nicktune]

Update coming october 27th

2. Expanded restriction options for cars in the online lounge [Car Restrictions], [Performance Points], [Power], and [Car Model] regulations will be possible to set simultaneously.

The problem with hp/weight regulation is that I could enter a car with 65 downforce in front and even more in the back...poor touring car with only 15 or 20 front downforce....

 

[chuyler1]

I don't think the FGT can get down to 300hp....but if we limit things to actual touring cars and RMs I don't think that'll be a problem. Most of them should have about the same DF options.

 

[dabneyd]

We ran some GT cars last night, the SRT8 TC, RX7 TC, Camaro RM, and the TVR RM were all running within a second for me. I had the PP limited to 585.

 

[spooble]

I was late to the party last night, but ran a few laps at Rome Reverse in dabney's lounge. I tried a few of the new TC's at 585pp on Race Hards. I didn't touch the tuning except to get them to 585. They all actually seemed fairly even. I was able to get within 1 second of dabney's fast lap in each one I tried. Most within 1/4 second. I think the Impreza was the slowest of the bunch. It was also easier to handle than most, so it's a trade-off. The Challenger is fast, but a bit of a handful. With a good tune, it should be tough to beat. I still like the M3 GTR Race Car. It's predictable. My best in it was less than a tenth off dabney's pace, but my normal, sloppy laps were 2-3 tenths back.

I think with cars in this performance range it doesn't really matter if we limit by pp, or hp/kg, or whatever. For me at least, it's going to come down to consistency (and not botching that freaking chicane in Rome Reverse!). There should be enough mistakes by most drivers to make 2 tenths here or there irrelevant. Not to mention these things eat the tires.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'll throw my hat in to say I'm definitely interested in this format. I can't do weekends easily or at least not consistently, so even if you guys were racing 10 hp go karts on Spa I'd be in.

Haven't read the whole thing but it seems there's some concern about slowing down the fast drivers or somehow equalizing things. In the Cappuccino Cup this season we went with a split race format, where we did a 15 minute sprint then a reverse grid and another 15 minute sprint. Made for an interesting second race. That's 4 out of 6 races and the other 2 were full length, around 30 minutes. Sprints were half points each race and full length races full points. It seems to be a popular formula, gives everyone a chance to regroup and a chance to redeem yourself after a poor first race, especially if you finish near the back and then start up front.

May I also suggest allowing the dropping of your worst race or two depending on the length of the season. Not everyone can make every race and it would be disappointing to lose a championship or a good position not because you were slower, but because real life called and you couldn't make a race.

 

[chuyler1]

I definitely support the drop your worst finish idea. Whether its network issues or real life, no one can make every race.

The reverse grid probably works great for same make racing but I think we'll find some car/driver combos end up being faster regardless of where they start. If I can draft, it doesn't take long for me to catch other drivers. We've done reverse grid same make racing before and its more about how quickly the fast drivers can negotiate traffic.

Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU54ItKFrnM

It took all of 2 laps for me to go from last to first. A few passes were questionable but even if I backed off, I still would have easily made it to the front before the end of the 5 lap race. These cars were tuned differently, but all were 450pp so its the type of battling we'll see in this touring series...only the speeds will be faster.

Putting the fast drivers at the back can really piss off everyone. Slower drivers feel like they're being run over, and faster drivers get even more aggressive because they know their closest competition might squeeze by a slow driver before them and check out once they have an open track. But when the race is long enough, the results usually end up the same. Faster drivers eventually whittle down the gap and slower drivers are left in the dust. A 2 second head start for some people just isn't enough to change the results.

 

[Menown]

I think this is getting a little obsessed with the impossible goal of having 16 people all with an equal chance to win regardless of skill. I understand having one car that is totally dominant is a problem, but trying to make all the driver equal through applying penalties seems impossible to balance and enforce.

Why not just get a nice group of closely matched cars and just race? I'm never going to win a race, but with 14-16 other guys I'm going to find someone to go door to door with for a few laps.

You goal is admirable, but possibly too difficult to do

 

[dabneyd]

I think this is getting a little obsessed with the impossible goal of having 16 people all with an equal chance to win regardless of skill.

I don't think that's my goal. I'm hoping to have some good racing with cars that are pretty competitive. My goal for two-class racing was to try to get less experienced/talented drivers in slower cars they could handle and better drivers in faster cars so they can have some close racing with some traffic strategy. However, this is racing and not everyone is going to win.

 

[pyxen]

so you'll obviously end up with two winners each night, right ?