Motor Industry V's Climate Change

[Pyrelli]

Every time you buy the 30 mpg vehicle over the 25 mpg vehicle you help point out the market opportunity of a 50 mpg vehicle. It takes time, and it's actually best if the transition isn't sudden, but that's the best way to get business to move - offer them money.

Much like how many of our current technologies developed out of war, I'm a firm believer that cars will benefit much from developments made in racing (I'm not saying that war is a good thing, just stating it is a catalyst for development). Not refering to formula one, which currently has little to do with domestic needs, but cars such as the R10, Pug 908 and the DM319 that have raced at Le mans are all developments that have promise for the future. Though development is most likely dependant on success and the need for money to do so.

Pyrelli

 

[Philly]

No. They'll give them to us. We just have to want them enough. Enough to refuse to buy anything else. Enough to pay a lot more for it.

Look at SUV sales. Companies are stuggling to keep their SUVs and trucks on the market and selling. Offering discounts just so they can get them off the lots. If the big three are stuggling just because that Suburban, Explorer or Durango is stranded on their lot, why don't they take the hint and offer us what we want? Why do they keep giving us what we don't want?

That's quite different. In one case the company is doing the polluting. In the other case you're doing the polluting using the company's product. Very different.

But the company wouldn't do the polluting if the people didn't use their products. No cars, no car pollution. No Mattel toys, no pollution from producing them and shipping them over here. It's a very different approach to the same issue. What do we have to do to get companies to get what we want? Enact a total boycott? Stop the economy? We wouldn't want that.

Oh they do here in LA, probably way more than Seattle. The auto industry can't just offer super efficient cars overnight. They have to be developed. But if there's enough money in it, rest assured it will be developed. If there's anything that drives a business it's opportunity in the market. The demand just has to be there.

Every time you buy the 30 mpg vehicle over the 25 mpg vehicle you help point out the market opportunity of a 50 mpg vehicle. It takes time, and it's actually best if the transition isn't sudden, but that's the best way to get business to move - offer them money.

Has the business moved? We are giving them money. We are starting to choose the more efficient vehicle over the bigger one. Why? Gas prices. And they aren't going to go down any time soon. If the auto makers could see that they weren't going to be selling inefficient vehicless for much longer, then by your logic, wouldn't they concentrate a lot more resources on developing efficiency?

 

[Danoff]

Look at SUV sales. Companies are stuggling to keep their SUVs and trucks on the market and selling. Offering discounts just so they can get them off the lots. If the big three are stuggling just because that Suburban, Explorer or Durango is stranded on their lot, why don't they take the hint and offer us what we want? Why do they keep giving us what we don't want?

Those same companies are starting to offer more and more hybrid vehicles. It takes time but they're definitely reacting.

Has the business moved? We are giving them money. We are starting to choose the more efficient vehicle over the bigger one. Why? Gas prices. And they aren't going to go down any time soon. If the auto makers could see that they weren't going to be selling inefficient vehicless for much longer, then by your logic, wouldn't they concentrate a lot more resources on developing efficiency?

They are. I think just this year several companies introduced new hybrid models. Actually it's starting to get hard to find companies that don't have hybrid models.

 

[vladimir]

don't tell me people still believe in the myth that a hummer was more environmentally friendly than a prius?

read this then, or my summary below:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Aut...MMER_Exploding_the_Myth.S196.A12220.html?pg=1


first of all, the whole "prius' nickel-batteries leave lunar-landscapes" is pure BS and even the initial sources have already admitted that:
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages...ews.html?in_article_id=417227&in_page_id=1770

the mail on sunday article linked environmental damage by nickel-mining with the batteries of the toyota prius, which was then spread around the internet in an even more exaggerated form.

however, as a matter of fact, the prius' batteries only account for half a percent of the mine's output and the damage that was discussed by the articel mostly occured in the last 200 years of the mine's operation.

furthermore, nickel is not only used in batteries but also for stainless steel, alloys and chrome plating...basically rappers and the worldwide population's cutlery causes more damage than the prius.


secondly, the argument about the cost due to lifetime energy consumption including production and recycling that CNW marketing research inc. came up with is fatally flawed. even if they are right with their assumption that the average prius costs so much more to produce and to recycle than lots of other cars and that the average owner will only drive his car for 109.000 miles in its life, then thats the driver's fault, not the cars.

what this study has basically established is (and thats nothing new) that a car thats only driven for 100.000 miles was more expensive to make per mile than a car that is driven for 400.000 miles.

now, since prius owners are mostly old people, environmentally concerned people or superstars who use their prius once for show and then continue to drive some gas guzzling SUV the average prius isn't driven very much. but thats not toyota's fault.

and before someone clever comes along and says "see, those tree huggers would be better off with a hummer!" let me explain the flaw in this argument as well: no they wouldn't because every car is expansive to make per driven mile if it isn't driven and those people tend to drive little.

 

[Joey D]

Meh however it works out it's pointless to own a Pruis because the break even point for buying one is over 14 years. Not many people own a car that long. I would say average is between 5-8 years.

You would be better off with a Corolla.

A 2008 Toyota Prius starts at $22,175 according to the Toyota American website. The fuel economy is rated at 60 mpg city and 51 mpg highway. The 2008 Toyota Corolla, a car of similar size and interior room starts at $15,205 according to the same site. The fuel economy is rated at 26 mpg city and 35 mpg highway. The difference in price is $6,970.

The Prius according to Edmunds.com through the Toyota site can go 714 miles in the city and 607 miles on the highway, if you average it out you can in theory go 660 miles.

The Corolla according to Edmunds.com through the Toyota site can go 343 miles in the city and 462 miles on the highway, if you average it out you can in theory go 402 miles.

A different of 258 miles.

The Prius has a 12 gallon gas tank, which at $2.75 a gallon would be $33.00 to fill it up if it was empty. The Corolla has a 13 gallon tank, which at $2.75 a gallon would be $35.75 to fill up. A price difference of, obliviously, $2.75.

I'm going to say most Americans drive about 12,000 miles per year, is this a fair estimate? I drive less but then again I don't drive all that much.

At this you would have to fill up the Prius about 18 times, which mean the final fuel bill would be $594 for the fuel bill. For the Corolla you would have to fill up 30 times $1072.50 for the final fuel bill. This is a difference of $478.50.

At this rate you would have to own the Prius 14 and a half years for the fuel savings to balance out if you bought one over a Corolla…I don’t know about you but I don’t think most people own a car that long.

 

[Danoff]

1 Prius causes more environmental damage to manufacture than 1 Hummer.

So if neither one is driven AT ALL, the Hummer wins.

The more you drive the prius, the harder it is for the Hummer to win because the prius makes up ground per mile driven. Problem is - the prius doesn't last long enough to make up the ground.

The easiest situation for a prius to be more environmentally friendly is if it is never driven, and the hummer is driven 400,000 miles.

The hardest situation is if the hummer is never driven, and the prius is driven 400,000 miles.

 

[vladimir]

1 Prius causes more environmental damage to manufacture than 1 Hummer.

So if neither one is driven AT ALL, the Hummer wins.

true, but thats not exactly what cars are made for.

The more you drive the prius, the harder it is for the Hummer to win because the prius makes up ground per mile driven. Problem is - the prius doesn't last long enough to make up the ground.

how do you know how long a prius lasts?

the 100.000 miles in the research is based upon the assumption that the owners hardly drive their car and that after 15 years they would have to buy a new car due to unavailable spares or they would buy a new one because of advanced technology.

its not based on the reliability of the car itself and how long it will drive.
therefor it doesn't tell us something about the car but only about the owners.

Meh however it works out it's pointless to own a Pruis because the break even point for buying one is over 14 years. Not many people own a car that long. I would say average is between 5-8 years.

You would be better off with a Corolla.

thats missing the point. people usually don't drive a prius because they want to save a lot of money in the long run but actually pay extra to have a green car.

 

[Philly]

thats missing the point. people usually don't drive a prius because they want to save a lot of money in the long run but actually pay extra to have a green car.

I beg to differ. Back at home, you would see a hybrid every so often. They weren't very popular at all. This could be true as late as 2006. Those were the people who bought the car to make a statement that they were the tree huggers and the environmentalists who were out to save the earth. Look around Seattle now. By the time you can get around one of them there's already another one in your way. One job site I had had three on one block. This spike in prius numbers occurred this year, after gas prices started to go up. Coincidence? probably not. People are trying to save money at the pump. Too bad for them it doesn't work. Even worse for the rest of us, we have to put up with it.

 

[Joey D]

t

thats missing the point. people usually don't drive a prius because they want to save a lot of money in the long run but actually pay extra to have a green car.

I would like to know how much greener a Prius is over a Corolla.

 

[Swift]

I would like to know how much greener a Prius is over a Corolla.

It totally depends on the situation. IF you drive a corolla conservatively and a prius like there's no tomorrow...

 

[Philly]

It totally depends on the situation. IF you drive a corolla conservatively and a prius like there's no tomorrow...

My guess is that the prius really isn't that much more fuel efficient than a Corolla. It wouldn't be all that hard to keep the prius off of battery power, and you know that the drivers of all those really slow earth muffin mobiles are staring at the battery use/engine use gauge chanting "must stay on battery power! Must stay on battery power!..."

 

[DustDriver]

This hasn't really been mentioned before in this discussion:

LPG is environmentally better than diesel or regular petrol, and it costs less.
BUT it doesn't generate much tax income for the government.
So they make a lot of regulations and stuff to make it less attractive.
Example: it costs you a great deal of money to install the tank, because you have to go to a licensed installer.
My dad installed one himself before you had to go to such an installer, and he made it safer than the regulations permit. They could've made it less costly if you just had to let it be checked once after you installed it.

Also, i was watching german television, and it was about some sort of new exhaust fumes cleaning system (don't know how to call it) for diesel engines.
Someone invested a couple of €1000 in it, thinking he would get a great deal back from the government (that was promised) and the tax for the car would be reduced.
But now he has to pay more taxes, because with this system there isn't a need for a catalyst anymore, and they can't find (written) evidence about the system actually being installed in the car, although he ordered the car with the system installed.
So he doesn't get the tax reduction for that.

It's all a big mess with the governments being payed a lot by the gas companies.
That's the main reason why, here in Belgium, there isn't much research being done in 'green fuels'

 

[Danoff]

This hasn't really been mentioned before in this discussion:

LPG is environmentally better than diesel or regular petrol, and it costs less.
BUT it doesn't generate much tax income for the government.
So they make a lot of regulations and stuff to make it less attractive.

Good point. Government shouldn't be allowed to regulate these things.

how do you know how long a prius lasts?

Whatever it is I don't think it's long enough. Keep in mind that putting in a new battery means more environmental impact.

 

[Joey D]

Road and Track seems to think the batteries will last about 10 years in a March 04 issue.

Bob, your straightforward question turned out to have a surprisingly complex answer. Toyota warranties the Prius battery pack for eight years, “but the expectation is it will last much longer than that.” How much longer no one is willing to speculate, so we’ll guestimate a 10-year lifespan from the nickel/metal-hydride unit.

 

[GT4 genius]

As i explained earlier in this thread or maybe in another one, in Ireland the break even cost of a prius compared to another similar D segment car is 3 years.

Also i mentioned an ice age thing before about the gulf stream and melt water interferrence

 

[Philly]

Are there a lot of earth muffun mobiles in Ireland? Enough to really matter?

 

[vladimir]

Good point. Government shouldn't be allowed to regulate these things.



Whatever it is I don't think it's long enough. Keep in mind that putting in a new battery means more environmental impact.

toyota claims that everything from the battery is recycled.

 

[YSSMAN]

As i explained earlier in this thread or maybe in another one, in Ireland the break even cost of a prius compared to another similar D segment car is 3 years.

I still have a very hard time believing it. My guess is that it is because much of your driving is not done at highway speeds (where the Prius is least-efficient). But, there are plenty of other negatives as well. Note that when the Prius runs on electric power they are far more dangerous to pedestrians than regular vehicles (no sound), furthermore, one cannot talk about the Prius without discussion of the computer "crashes" which completely disable the vehicle... And I know that here in the US, the Feds are already looking into cases of uncontrollable acceleration in the Prius (as well as the Lexus ES350).

I still give Prius drivers the finger every day. They think so highly of themselves, when really they are doing nothing to improve the planet. Sure, we could all do more to conserve, but given the attitude in at least this country, I doubt it will happen anytime soon.

Until then, I look forward to getting the Camaro running with its glorious 8 MPG around town. Furthermore, adding my father's ordered Camaro, and the one I plan on getting in the not too distant future.

Excess fuel consumption FTW!

 

[TopHat]

I hate that whenever I say that cars aren't the biggest reason for global warming, I get called a brainwashed drone.

 

[Philly]

I still have a very hard time believing it. My guess is that it is because much of your driving is not done at highway speeds (where the Prius is least-efficient). But, there are plenty of other negatives as well. Note that when the Prius runs on electric power they are far more dangerous to pedestrians than regular vehicles (no sound), furthermore, one cannot talk about the Prius without discussion of the computer "crashes" which completely disable the vehicle... And I know that here in the US, the Feds are already looking into cases of uncontrollable acceleration in the Prius (as well as the Lexus ES350).

I thought the Prius was at it's prime (at least compared to other vehicles) in the city. The engine shuts off at a stop. Plus, they don't go fast enough to get off battery power in the first place in the cities. On teh highway, they can use battery power, but I'm sure they do a bit of oil buring there. I thought it was hybrids get amazing mileage in teh city and diesels get great highway MPGage.

 

[Swift]

I hate that whenever I say that cars aren't the biggest reason for global warming, I get called a brainwashed drone.

Agreed. It seems if you think for yourself and look at the evidence that the situation then you're brainwashed. But if you listen to an Actor about global climate change then you're just fine.

 

[GT4 genius]

I think ireland has about 150miles of motorway (highway), its not a very big country, so yeh your right but i'am using offical figures here i show you them:
the prius is called a D segment car here putting it in line with eg the nissan primera, the toyota avensis the opel vectra etc.

Nissan Primera= 40mpg
Toyota Prius= 60mpg
Combined cycle

average miles per year 20000miles

Nissan:
1 litre = €1.20
1galleon= 4.6litres
1galleon= €5.52
40miles= €5.52
1mile= €0.14
20000miles=€2760= 1year

Toyota:
60miles=€5.52
1mile= €0.09
20000miles=€1840=1 year

toyota price= €28000
Nissan price= €25000
Difference= €3000

1year difference= 2760-1840=920
4thyeardifference=920*4=3680
as well as a smaller car tax


Also dont forget that i dont believe prius's are more eco-friendly at all.
Also the question asks do you believe that cars contribute (in even the smallest way) yes i know that they aren't the biggest contributor, but even if there the smallest they are a contributor, but 17 of you dont believe the contribute at all!!

 

[Stevisiov]

, but even if there the smallest they are a contributor, but 17 of you dont believe the contribute at all!!

Well The poll options are very limited, so I went for the one that is closest to my opinion, While its hard to say how big the impact is of global warming, its my opinion that most modern cars (in the UK at least) will make such a small contribution to climate change that I feel that My choice in the poll was close enough.

 

[GT4 genius]

I seen on a documentary about weather altercations that if a plane droped about 3 tonnes of carbon dust over the pacific cost the sun would heat up that area enough to create a low pressure weather system that would move across america and buffer atlantic hurricances away from the land and back out to sea.
Now if this is true how many tonnes of carbon are created by UK cars alone!

 

[crimson_menace]

Of course it has, but climate change has been in effect long before cars were around. We've only just found the technology to prove that it's existing and to what's exacerbating things.

 

[Stevisiov]

I seen on a documentary about weather altercations that if a plane droped about 3 tonnes of carbon dust over the pacific cost the sun would heat up that area enough to create a low pressure weather system that would move across america and buffer atlantic hurricances away from the land and back out to sea.
Now if this is true how many tonnes of carbon are created by UK cars alone!

You are talking concentrated amounts. 3 tonnes of carbon dust then sure, hoever a little here and there makes no odds, I can see how the a little can build up to a lot, however trees are designed to soak up C02, and they do a good job of it. dump 3 tonnes of carbon dust on them they are going to stuggle, spreading it around lowers the concentration, trees can deal with low concentration.

 

[GT4 genius]

Whats the "normal" amount of carbon dioxide in the air, its pretty small about 0.5% so if this is increased even the small amount everyones going on about on this thread surely it would have a huge effect on the worlds natural glass house effect that keeps us warm enough to survive.
Also i think we produce something like 6 times more carbon dioxide than trees can absorb.

 

[BobK]

Also the question asks do you believe that cars contribute (in even the smallest way) yes i know that they aren't the biggest contributor, but even if there the smallest they are a contributor, but 17 of you dont believe the contribute at all!!

I voted for this option

No, it has never been proven.

because, well, there's no proof.

 

[Philly]

because, well, there's no proof.

Neither is there any proof saying the other way around is true.

 

[GT4 genius]

Is there not overwhelming evidence to show that they have caused climate change to at least speed up.