Motorcycles in GT6?

[z0b3z]

One thing that probably hasn't been brought up, how do you properly race a car vs a bike? I'm not talking about the problem of one ramming the other, I mean matching them. The fastest cars are always going to be faster than the fastest bikes overall on a lap for simple physics reasons, four big contact patches vs two.

So how do you get the two to race together on the same track and actually make it fun? If you put together a car and a bike that overall perform a similar lap time the bike is going to have to be much faster down the straight whilst the car will catch it in the bends. I don't really see that as fun racing myself.

not all people in the community really care about just track racing some of them like drag racing and some like drifting

and a bike vs a car on a track can be a close race depending on skill level of the rider/driver and the track layout

 

[Samus]

But what I'm saying is cars have better cornering ability than bikes, it's simple physics why.

If you take a bike that can for example lap Suzuka in 2:10 and a car that can do the same, those laps are going to be very different. The bike is going to have to be considerably faster on the straights to make up for the slower cornering speed. So any race is going to consist of the bike racing away on the straights and then being caught considerably on the corners.

 

[z0b3z]

But what I'm saying is cars have better cornering ability than bikes, it's simple physics why.

If you take a bike that can for example lap Suzuka in 2:10 and a car that can do the same, those laps are going to be very different. The bike is going to have to be considerably faster on the straights to make up for the slower cornering speed. So any race is going to consist of the bike racing away on the straights and then being caught considerably on the corners.

So then how is a bike not going to be fun to compete against if it evens out ?

 

[mrluckypants]

PGR4 Tried cars and bikes in the same game, and all that happened was the bikes got run over by the cars. Even the AI drivers do it.

 

[PAPPACLART]

If comparing Stock road cars to Stock road bikes, apex speeds are actually very similar, cars gain under braking and normally in corner entry while (with apex speed very similar) the bikes normally get out of the corners faster and blast down the straight.

You are right though they get around the track quite differently, and if you are a car chasing a bike you better get used to braking earlier if you do not want to knock the rider off.

 

[Samus]

So then how is a bike not going to be fun to compete against if it evens out ?

Because that isn't racing, is it?

 

[hogger129]

Motorcycles, bring them on. Anyone else with me? All the car only diehard snobs can chime in too, like I have a choice anyway.

I'd be down for it. They could at least put in a few. Like 10, 15. Wouldn't be difficult.

 

[z0b3z]

Because that isn't racing, is it?

how isn't it ? what difference does it make if there's a 1 second gap between a car or bike in a race ? it's still a race that is won by the better rider/driver. your basically saying that just because there's a bike it's not the same but if it was redbull x1 against a fiat 500 it would be a race just because there both cars?

 

[PAPPACLART]

how isn't it ? what difference does it make if there's a 1 second gap between a car or bike in a race ? it's still a race that is won by the better rider/driver. your basically saying that just because there's a bike it's not the same but if it was redbull x1 against a fiat 500 it would be a race just because there both cars?

Also, lets say we put up a stock bike against a stock car, and it turns out the bike is 3 second faster than the car, a few mods on the car and they can be made pretty equal. This works the other way.

 

[Samus]

how isn't it ? what difference does it make if there's a 1 second gap between a car or bike in a race ? it's still a race that is won by the better rider/driver. your basically saying that just because there's a bike it's not the same but if it was redbull x1 against a fiat 500 it would be a race just because there both cars?

No, how do you come to that conclusion? Yes in the simplest definition of the word it would be a race in the same way Usain Bolt vs me in a 100m sprint would be a race, it wouldn't be any fun or entertaining though which is what I meant. It's like in Forza 2 Muscle cars were horribly imbalanced so you would have 800hp+ monsters against 300hp normal cars in the same race. The muscle cars would fly off down the straights and then crawl around the corners when the normal cars caught them. Then they'd fly past again, repeat the whole race.

That's not fun, if I'm racing I want things to be as even as possible. What's the point in flying past a bike going in the braking zone and then have the bike fly past you on the straight, rinse and repeat?

Also, lets say we put up a stock bike against a stock car, and it turns out the bike is 3 second faster than the car, a few mods on the car and they can be made pretty equal. This works the other way.

Yes, on final time, not how they drive the lap.

 

[PAPPACLART]

Yes, on final time, not how they drive the lap.

In my club, we are testing 585pp race cars for a possible event.

I have an RM Elise that is 313bhp and is 720kgs racing with cars that have 470bhp and weigh around 1100kgs. The Elise is similar in terms of outright lap times but goes about its lap allot different. It brakes later then most cars, enters corners faster and gets out faster but lacks high speed acceleration. It does to heavier cars what the average Supercar would do to the average bike.

The different qualities/strengths of each vehicle makes it more interesting to see what comes out on trop

 

[Exorcet]

That's not fun, if I'm racing I want things to be as even as possible. What's the point in flying past a bike going in the braking zone and then have the bike fly past you on the straight, rinse and repeat?

It's an opinion. There's not much really wrong with racing like that. It can be annoying in GT5 because picking a snail car is often the only way that you can have a fair race.

If the car/bike race goes one way on straights, and another on the corners, it's up to the drivers to play to their strengths and take advantage of the other's weaknesses. The bike can use its acceleration to get to the corner first and take the better line to slow the car and the car can brake later and corner harder to defend against the bike.

Then there's the matter of the track. SSR7 would even out cars vs bikes to a degree because of the lack of slow corners. You can also tune cars to be competitive with bikes nearly equally on all levels by finding a car with grip similar to a bike and then boosting its power to match the bike's acceleration.

 

[z0b3z]

No, how do you come to that conclusion? Yes in the simplest definition of the word it would be a race in the same way Usain Bolt vs me in a 100m sprint would be a race, it wouldn't be any fun or entertaining though which is what I meant. It's like in Forza 2 Muscle cars were horribly imbalanced so you would have 800hp+ monsters against 300hp normal cars in the same race. The muscle cars would fly off down the straights and then crawl around the corners when the normal cars caught them. Then they'd fly past again, repeat the whole race.

That's not fun, if I'm racing I want things to be as even as possible. What's the point in flying past a bike going in the braking zone and then have the bike fly past you on the straight, rinse and repeat?


well if they both lap the track in the same time how would it not be even as possible? both have pro's and con's and the finish would be close.if you don't find driving to your best ability through a corner to catch up to the bike well then that's just your personal liking but regardless there's nothing bad about bringing bikes into GT they have nothing to lose over bringing 5 bikes just for something different and for most people it would be exciting

 

[Samus]

well if they both lap the track in the same time how would it not be even as possible? both have pro's and con's and the finish would be close.if you don't find driving to your best ability through a corner to catch up to the bike well then that's just your personal liking but regardless there's nothing bad about bringing bikes into GT they have nothing to lose over bringing 5 bikes just for something different

I already said why it wouldn't be fun or even with the Muscle car example.

and for most people it would be exciting

What data are you basing this theory on exactly?

 

[PAPPACLART]

It is great fun - Ducati vs Ferrari

 

[analog]

One thing that probably hasn't been brought up, how do you properly race a car vs a bike? I'm not talking about the problem of one ramming the other, I mean matching them. The fastest cars are always going to be faster than the fastest bikes overall on a lap for simple physics reasons, four big contact patches vs two.

So how do you get the two to race together on the same track and actually make it fun? If you put together a car and a bike that overall perform a similar lap time the bike is going to have to be much faster down the straight whilst the car will catch it in the bends. I don't really see that as fun racing myself.

I don't think you can properly race a bike against a car, at least not seriously in the same way as car versus car or bike versus bike.
I think a trackday/free run casual type of thing on the Nordschleife for example could be fun though (or free roam), and it also depends on the skill set of each player obviously (and which bike versus which car).
I think a race between car and bike is more like a challenge who can win and not a direct battle for position like a regular race.
Whether that's fun depends on what you think is fun, I can see it being fun.

 

[PAPPACLART]

I don't think you can properly race a bike against a car, at least not seriously in the same way as car versus car or bike versus bike.
I think a trackday/free run casual type of thing on the Nordschleife for example could be fun though (or free roam), and it also depends on the skill set of each player obviously (and which bike versus which car).
I think a race between car and bike is more like a challenge who can win and not a direct battle for position like a regular race.
Whether that's fun depends on what you think is fun, I can see it being fun.

I agree, tho to get racing broadly similar to the car vs car or bike vs bike as you said will very much depend on which 2 vehicles are matched up but with smart choices the duals could be awesomely fun IMO.👍

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

One thing that probably hasn't been brought up, how do you properly race a car vs a bike? I'm not talking about the problem of one ramming the other, I mean matching them. The fastest cars are always going to be faster than the fastest bikes overall on a lap for simple physics reasons, four big contact patches vs two.

So how do you get the two to race together on the same track and actually make it fun? If you put together a car and a bike that overall perform a similar lap time the bike is going to have to be much faster down the straight whilst the car will catch it in the bends. I don't really see that as fun racing myself.

Fifth Gear track battle : Porsche 911 vs Yamaha R1



This


This


This


It can be done in real life, it can be done in game.

 

[analog]

It can be done in real life, it can be done in game.

But let's be honest, those examples are just staged demonstrations, not proper races.
I'd love to be able to do that though and find out whether it's indeed fun but I doubt anyone here requesting bikes seriously thinks you can have a proper race between them.

 

[Samus]

Exactly what i was going to say, they're all staged tests for TV shows and media, not serious races.

 

[Warren4649]

Just as well as they did a race against a plane, it doesn't mean it should be included in GT.
GT is a car game, it always has been that way. If GT5 was perfect already, why not, but its not the case!!! I'd rather have cars with proper engine sounds, a better customisation, no standards, improved physics, better clutch and a better AI (even tho online will still remain funnier) than bikes.

 

[PAPPACLART]

This is not staged the biker was following the car, so not flat out as obviously this was a public road so dangerous! Saying that though ,also watch half way though the video as another bike appears overtaking both the R1 and M3 and vanishing...That guys was racing! lol

BMW M3 Vs Yamaha R1 ​

.

 

[Exorcet]

If you want an idea of how close a non stage race can be:

Go to 2:56


Notice also that while the performance isn't even between turns and straights, the gaps aren't huge to the point where it's trivial for one to pass the other.

 

[mjm23race]

We need a poll like the equivalent thread for GT5.

Not sure a poll here proves anything. An educated guess would tell me that a traditionally car only forum would be more in favor of cars only by say 60-70% to 30-40% of people in favor of bikes and cars or that don't care either way. If you posted a poll at a traditionally motorcycle game forum I would guess the numbers would be flipped. Even if only say 30% of traditional gt gamers were interested, that is still a significant number.

One thing that probably hasn't been brought up, how do you properly race a car vs a bike?

So how do you get the two to race together on the same track and actually make it fun?

Just for a quick comparison in real life at Laguna an ALMS Audi R10 qualified at 1'08, MotoGp qualified at 1'20, and a ALMS GT Corvette C6 qualified at 1'22.

There should be enough vehicles to get a good handful that could be a pretty even match with certain motorcycles.

Honestly I think that is only minor to figure out how to race the two different disciplines together. I am more interested in just getting bikes implemented properly and not upsetting the overall feel of the game and keeping them separate enough to not scare car only guys away. If they can do that, the rest will all fall into place.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

But let's be honest, those examples are just staged demonstrations, not proper races.
I'd love to be able to do that though and find out whether it's indeed fun but I doubt anyone here requesting bikes seriously thinks you can have a proper race between them.

Exactly what i was going to say, they're all staged tests for TV shows and media, not serious races.

Staged demo ? When two vehicles going at close proximity in high speed in a circuit still not considered a "proper race", but a stage demo ? When their goal is to reach the finish line 1st, it is a race. If I want to test which is faster in a track, a Yamaha R1 or a Nissan GTR, then I have both together in a track to post lap times and then together in the track, it is a race - both against time and against each other, regardless the purpose of the event - for tv or media. If you called those not serious, tell me how Touge Battle on Hot Version and Best Motoring races are not serious races, but a staged demo or tests.

 

[Samus]

This is not staged the biker was following the car, so not flat out as obviously this was a public road so dangerous! Saying that though ,also watch half way though the video as another bike appears overtaking both the R1 and M3 and vanishing...That guys was racing! lol

BMW M3 Vs Yamaha R1 ​

.

That is on a public road as you say so quite irrelevent.

If you want an idea of how close a non stage race can be:

Go to 2:56


Notice also that while the performance isn't even between turns and straights, the gaps aren't huge to the point where it's trivial for one to pass the other.

I'm not seeing a race there, just a time trial against the clock which is obviously not the same as both being on the track at the same time which is what my point has been.

Just for a quick comparison in real life at Laguna an ALMS Audi R10 qualified at 1'08, MotoGp qualified at 1'20, and a ALMS GT Corvette C6 qualified at 1'22.

There should be enough vehicles to get a good handful that could be a pretty even match with certain motorcycles.

Honestly I think that is only minor to figure out how to race the two different disciplines together. I am more interested in just getting bikes implemented properly and not upsetting the overall feel of the game and keeping them separate enough to not scare car only guys away. If they can do that, the rest will all fall into place.

Once again, it's not about final lap time. You could find me a bike that laps at the exact same time as a car to the millisecond, they would still complete the lap in a very different way that would make it hard to competitively race on the same piece of tarmac.

 

[mjm23race]

Once again, it's not about final lap time. You could find me a bike that laps at the exact same time as a car to the millisecond, they would still complete the lap in a very different way that would make it hard to competitively race on the same piece of tarmac.

There are many cars in game already that do the exact same thing you are talking about. I guess for me that is part of the fun of GT, being able to take vehicles with different weight, different hp, and different driving styles and have them all be competitive together.

Although, I really think the car vs. bikes would be an online only feature. I am sure the novelty would wear off quickly. After the initial buzz it would more than likely be rooms with cars vs. cars and bikes vs. bikes.

 

[Samus]

There are many cars in game already that do the exact same thing you are talking about. I guess for me that is part of the fun of GT, being able to take vehicles with different weight, different hp, and different driving styles and have them all be competitive together.

Although, I really think the car vs. bikes would be an online only feature. I am sure the novelty would wear off quickly. After the initial buzz it would more than likely be rooms with cars vs. cars and bikes vs. bikes.

So then once again, what is the logic in putting them in the same game?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Couple more videos of bike vs car

This is a serious one from the guys of Fastbikes, BMW S1000 RR vs Nissan GTR at Brands Hatch, the bike wins. The GTR was driven by a pro race driver.



Then this : Nissan GTR vs Aprillia RSV4 Factory APRC SE - a really great race, side by side in one of the corners, but sadly the GTR loses again.

 

[arora]

PGR4 Tried cars and bikes in the same game, and all that happened was the bikes got run over by the cars. Even the AI drivers do it.

I was just thinking how intelligent gt's ai are.