Motorcycles in GT6?

[Samus]

They're still closed track tests, not professional races. You can see the car driver was extremely cautious in the braking zone behind the bike, not pushing as hard as he would without the bike there. Plus these examples are all 1v1, what happens when you have 8 cars and 8 bikes?

 

[Griffith500]

I expect this sort of mismatch, whilst not quite on the same level you'd expect to see in car races (e.g. mixed-class), it still might not in any way be detrimental to some people's experience - so I expect it will remain an "open problem". The best way to handle it, then, is to let the community decide; to let people race the way they want to. That means more control, which will benefit car racing, too.

Then, of course, there's all the non-racing aspects of the game to consider.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

They're still closed track tests, not professional races. You can see the car driver was extremely cautious in the braking zone behind the bike, not pushing as hard as he would without the bike there. Plus these examples are all 1v1, what happens when you have 8 cars and 8 bikes?

How far do you want to make it feasible to be in the game ? To have it done in real life, a multi car and bike races at national level championship ? We are talking about bike vs car races in a game, where we have more freedom, no implication of crashes, a virtual race, where in real life would be hard to create.

Any car driver or bike rider would be cautious in braking zone when racing with other cars or bikes, unless you are alone in the track. If we have 8 cars and 8 bikes, the race will be same with 16 cars or 16 bikes on the track, everyone will try to be the fastest without crashing into each other. How will they do it ? The same thing with every motorsport races, clean pass, no ramming, no dive bombing, clean fair racing, nobody wanted to crash.

 

[FormulaKimball]

I was just thinking how intelligent gt's ai are.

Great point (this and the one you were quoting about the cars running into/over the bikes). If GT6 accurately modeled bikes then the rider would have to be chucked from the bike in the event of a high side or something. At least with car vs car battles, the weight range is roughly in the same universe and both still have four tires for balance - whereas it doesn't take much of a tap to a bike in the wrong moment to send it and the rider tumbling.

How do bike games even deal with this?

 

[mjm23race]

So then once again, what is the logic in putting them in the same game?

Once again I think it has been covered a few times already. But since you keep asking.

It would seem to make sense to do everything they are capable of in 1 title. It would take less development time and resources to do everything 1 time and not twice.

It would make a more diverse game, appealing to and opening up more marketplace. If done properly it would be something no other sim racer has pulled off yet. More potential for growth of the game, and more revenue. More potential to be King of the sim hill. why not be the innovator, instead of waiting for someone else to do it before you.

Everything is already in place. Marketing, distribution, all the licenses, support from Sony, basically everything that would be needed to do 2 separate games. It seems like a waste to develop 2 separate games that are completely identical except for vehicle choice. Game engine and physics engine would also be the same.

Plus it does seem that there is quite a bit of interest in some racing car vs. bike in whatever capacity that ends up in.

I have to say for me the convenience factor would be huge! Not having to switch game discs or deal with different menu layouts just to compare car vs. bike lap times on a given track.

I guess I don't see the logic in doing 2 seperate titles.

 

[arora]

How do bike games even deal with this?

I've never seen it done very well but there might be games that do. I believe the reason is simple, as I've been saying all along, they use a basic car physics engine. Makes for some pretty unrealistic biking if you ask me. If gt6 has bikes, any contact would most likely behave like two same weight cars touching.

And I'm a troll?

I'm not sure why you included me in your quotes, there is nothing troll about those posts. The first one addresses a real problem with wish threads as in, where does it end? The second was a direct response to someone else recommending a different racing game that has bikes in it. Nothing more.

These requests are never ending and silly, if they add bikes they might as well add dirt bikes. Why not dune buggies too? Dakar anyone? Or, how about drag bikes... etc. etc.

I'd like semi trucks with a dock area for licensing tests, maybe a few fork lifts and pallet jacks to practice unloading 👍

How about motorstorm?

Perhaps you don't know what it means to troll, I'll give you a hint though, you like to do it.

 

[mjm23race]

If gt6 has bikes, any contact would most likely behave like two same weight cars touching.

I'm not sure why you included me in your quotes, there is nothing troll about those posts. The first one addresses a real problem with wish threads as in, where does it end? The second was a direct response to someone else recommending a different racing game that has bikes in it. Nothing more.

Perhaps you don't know what it means to troll, I'll give you a hint though, you like to do it.

Not sure how you came to the conclusion of how cars and bikes will collide as if they are both cars, but I doubt that would be the case. I am sure they are capable of a suitable solution.

I included your quotes, because saying you think something is ridiculous by posting something ridiculous is just looking for a reaction.

 

[PAPPACLART]

Once again I think it has been covered a few times already. But since you keep asking.

It would seem to make sense to do everything they are capable of in 1 title. It would take less development time and resources to do everything 1 time and not twice.

It would make a more diverse game, appealing to and opening up more marketplace. If done properly it would be something no other sim racer has pulled off yet. More potential for growth of the game, and more revenue. More potential to be King of the sim hill. why not be the innovator, instead of waiting for someone else to do it before you.

Everything is already in place. Marketing, distribution, all the licenses, support from Sony, basically everything that would be needed to do 2 separate games. It seems like a waste to develop 2 separate games that are completely identical except for vehicle choice. Game engine and physics engine would also be the same.

Plus it does seem that there is quite a bit of interest in some racing car vs. bike in whatever capacity that ends up in.

I have to say for me the convenience factor would be huge! Not having to switch game discs or deal with different menu layouts just to compare car vs. bike lap times on a given track.

I guess I don't see the logic in doing 2 seperate titles.

Very well put.👍

PS

All great bikers think alike lol (sry)

 

[arora]

I included your quotes, because saying you think something is ridiculous by posting something ridiculous is just looking for a reaction.

Nope, not looking for knee jerk reactions here. Trying to point out some sensible thinking is in order. That post was not aimed only at wishing for bikes btw.

 

[Griffith500]

I've never seen it done very well but there might be games that do. I believe the reason is simple, as I've been saying all along, they use a basic car physics engine. Makes for some pretty unrealistic biking if you ask me. If gt6 has bikes, any contact would most likely behave like two same weight cars touching.

An utterly daft simplification. At worst it'd be like two cars with vastly different weights, lateral stabilities and roll-centres colliding, because even the most rudimentary car racing games support these, if only in animation. The only way it would play out like a car collision is if the bikes were modeled as cars, which wasn't even true in TT.
You also forgot the part about Newtonian physics being universal for motor vehicles.

I'm not sure why you included me in your quotes, there is nothing troll about those posts. The first one addresses a real problem with wish threads as in, where does it end? The second was a direct response to someone else recommending a different racing game that has bikes in it. Nothing more.

...

It certainly seemed as though you were being deliberately antagonistic, nothing more.
As for "where does it end?": ultimately, it doesn't. That's the joy of the medium. The irony is that dirt bikes, dune buggies, Dakar, drag bikes etc. are excellent candidates for inclusion into GT / TT.

 

[arora]

It's only antagonistic if you have a hate for the truth. BTW I would love to see all of those things, I'm just smart enough to realize pd has limitations.

 

[Griffith500]

It's only antagonistic if you have a hate for the truth. BTW I would love to see all of those things, I'm just smart enough to realize pd has limitations.

What truth?
We all know that PD has limitations, it's a collection of people; given a lot of people cannot even recognise their own limitations, though, that might mean PD are in for a rough ride.

Anyway, is it those same limitations that've prevented GT's car roster from expanding to include some widely disparate corners of motor vehicle recreation (and not just the "cool" stuff)?

 

[Ven0m]

I am sure they are capable of a suitable solution.

That isn't a very good argument. You must have a lot of faith in PD.

 

[arora]

I'm not sure what sort of PD fan you are trying to paint me as. The truth is, gt5 is full of problems, I guess you figure they are going to fix all the short comings and polish gt6 to the point that adding an entire new dimension will be a piece of cake. I wish that where true.

And no, obviously those limitations have not hindered the franchise from bringing us some of the best cars in the world to experience. My friends will attest(although they laugh at me for it) being able to drive things like the deluxe and 360 bring me hours of enjoyment.

Seeing as you guys are determined to label me a troll, I will oblige...

Motorcycles in gt6 is a bad idea and will not happen imo 👍

 

[omgitsbees]

That isn't a very good argument. You must have a lot of faith in PD.

Read the rest of his posts in this thread. "not a very good argument" defines mjm23race's posting.

Anyways, motorcycles are a bad idea for GT6 in my opinion; GT5 had enough problems as is, and I think PD needs to scale back GT6 instead of trying to shove even more features into the game that make absolutely zero sense. GT5 was such a sloppy, broken game because it had so many idea's and none of them were done very well. If GT6 had less features and gameplay modes, it would be a positive thing, it needs to be more focused. Once PD can make a game with the basics correctly done, then they can go from there. If everything is done correctly this time, motorcycles in GT7 would make more sense.

 

[lebes14]

One thing that probably hasn't been brought up, how do you properly race a car vs a bike? I'm not talking about the problem of one ramming the other, I mean matching them. The fastest cars are always going to be faster than the fastest bikes overall on a lap for simple physics reasons, four big contact patches vs two.

So how do you get the two to race together on the same track and actually make it fun? If you put together a car and a bike that overall perform a similar lap time the bike is going to have to be much faster down the straight whilst the car will catch it in the bends. I don't really see that as fun racing myself.

Watched a video the other day of the 1199 spanking a 458 on a drag and on a track. So really it depends entirely on where you are at. Like has been mentioned, each has a special ability on the track, but that's not much different then when you ace a group of road cars, some brake better, some pull out of a turn better, some are faster in the straight, and some have to take entirely different lines. That's the fun of it, if all te cars were exactly the same it would lose the challenge of knowing your opponents strength and weakness and taking advantage. Though in my mind, the car vs bike thing wouldn't actually occur much in proper racing on the game, maybe only in specified online races. It does seem a bit...silly. It would be fun to do one off races and time trials with car vs bike, but overall it'd be best to separate it.

 

[Griffith500]

Read the rest of his posts in this thread. "not a very good argument" defines mjm23race's posting.

Anyways, motorcycles are a bad idea for GT6 in my opinion; GT5 had enough problems as is, and I think PD needs to scale back GT6 instead of trying to shove even more features into the game that make absolutely zero sense. GT5 was such a sloppy, broken game because it had so many idea's and none of them were done very well. If GT6 had less features and gameplay modes, it would be a positive thing, it needs to be more focused. Once PD can make a game with the basics correctly done, then they can go from there. If everything is done correctly this time, motorcycles in GT7 would make more sense.

What focus? What is GT? The usual reason given for GT5 being a supposed mess is "not enough time"; they've had more time now.
And PD aren't a 12 year old child, I'm pretty sure they can be trusted with their own creation. If not, then there'll be no reason to buy it, and your anxieties can be transferred to a different series.

Exactly the same arguments will apply to GT7 as they do to GT6; bikes are a "waste of time" - that's all it boils down to at the moment, based on some presumption of knowing what actually constitutes "Vision Gran Turismo".

 

[PAPPACLART]

People need to stop thinking the inclusion of motorcycles would be just to compare with cars, of course that will happen with those who want to do such comparisons either offline or online.

The inclusion of motorcycles in GT6 makes sense not just to compare and do the age old car vs bike but simply because it serves no logic having 2 games that are exactly the same other than 1 has cars and 1 has bikes. I really will cringe at the thought of changing the disc every single time I want to use either when I could simply jump in either a bike or a car and hotlap Nurburgring if all on the 1 disk.

It's simple, from GT6 menu you launch either your GT career or your TT career with bikes and cars available in arcade/free run and online regardless of the mode you choose.

If PD worry about loosing sales if they include the 2, sell GT6 as a standalone game then some time after for a reasonable price sell the TT2 plugin as DLC, unlocking TT2 career mode and bikes etc.

GT is a celebration of motorsport.

 

[arora]

What focus? What is GT? The usual reason given for GT5 being a supposed mess is "not enough time"; they've had more time now.

And the game is still a mess.

And PD aren't a 12 year old child, I'm pretty sure they can be trusted with their own creation. If not, then there'll be no reason to buy it, and your anxieties can be transferred to a different series.

No they are not, they are a bit strange though. As for not buying? I might be in that boat depending on how well sms does.

Exactly the same arguments will apply to GT7 as they do to GT6; bikes are a "waste of time" - that's all it boils down to at the moment, based on some presumption of knowing what actually constitutes "Vision Gran Turismo".

Not true by a mile, here is hoping gt6 will be a great success where all the troubles are fixed. I don't think anyone can speak for Kaz but I'm quite convinced he wants to create the best car simulation possible, who knows, he might even have an itch for bikes.

 

[mjm23race]

People need to stop thinking the inclusion of motorcycles would be just to compare with cars, of course that will happen with those who want to do such comparisons either offline or online.

The inclusion of motorcycles in GT6 makes sense not just to compare and do the age old car vs bike but simply because it serves no logic having 2 games that are exactly the same other than 1 has cars and 1 has bikes. I really will cringe at the thought of changing the disc every single time I want to use either when I could simply jump in either a bike or a car and hotlap Nurburgring if all on the 1 disk.

It's simple, from GT6 menu you launch either your GT career or your TT career with bikes and cars available in arcade/free run and online regardless of the mode you choose.

If PD worry about loosing sales if they include the 2, sell GT6 as a standalone game then some time after for a reasonable price sell the TT2 plugin as DLC, unlocking TT2 career mode and bikes etc.

GT is a celebration of motorsport.

Props. Well said. It is a good collaboration of what many of us have been saying throughout this thread.

 

[omgitsbees]

If PD worry about loosing sales if they include the 2, sell GT6 as a standalone game then some time after for a reasonable price sell the TT2 plugin as DLC, unlocking TT2 career mode and bikes etc.

They aren't going to sell TT2 as DLC. They would make a lot more money selling it as a full retail game for $60.

 

[mjm23race]

Read the rest of his posts in this thread. "not a very good argument" defines mjm23race's posting.

That's because I am not very well versed at arguing over the Internet, not really my speciality. But sometimes you guys drag me down to your level and beat me with experience.

Believe what you want, but this thread was intended for people who share the same passion to express themselves.

 

[arora]

If pd bothers to mess with bikes a separate game makes the most sense. We have to go way back to gt4 and tt to get an idea, looking at the sales numbers I don't see them adding bikes to a gt title to boost sales. I would guess a very high percentage of tt sales went to those who owned or bought gt4 as well. If they do include bikes in gt6[the water would have to be spiked with lsd or some sort (see that is a joke?)] there will most likely be only one version of the game, I could see bike dlc I guess but defo not two separate versions of the game on disk.

 

[PAPPACLART]

They aren't going to sell TT2 as DLC. They would make a lot more money selling it as a full retail game for $60.

I think TT sold just under a million worldwide, not sure will have to check.

If TT2 was a GT6 plugin, the DLC would be a full game that plugs into to GT6, with its own A-Spec/career mode and large rooster of motorcycles etc, and unlike your average DLC in terms of content as it would be a full on game. Off of the back of that, PD could command a higher price over your average DLC pack which offer little content and value.

Selling/marketing TT2 directly to GT5 fans would avoid the cut retailers would get so PD could actually sell it cheaper than the $60 retail price while still earning similar per sale as well as cutting out logistics and packaging/manufacturing costs, and doing so would directly market TT2 to 7 million plus (assuming GT6 sells as much as GT5) thus potentially increasing sales of what a stand alone TT2 would possibly get.

I would pay $30 for a full game of TT2 if plugged directly into GT5, heck I would pay normal retail price for that.

If Sony play smart, TT2 could be a good money earner for them.

 

[Griffith500]

And the game is still a mess.

I've not seen GT6 to be able to comment.

No they are not, they are a bit strange though. As for not buying? I might be in that boat depending on how well sms does.

Good, exercise your power and try not to trip over it.

Not true by a mile, here is hoping gt6 will be a great success where all the troubles are fixed. I don't think anyone can speak for Kaz but I'm quite convinced he wants to create the best car simulation possible, who knows, he might even have an itch for bikes.

So you're saying people aren't actually opposed to bikes in principle, it's only because they're scared GT6 won't fix what GT5 broke? Again, it's impossible to say bikes would interfere with that process at all, given it's not likely to have been bikes that broke it in the first place.

My personal feeling about GT5 is that they tried for a GT4 first time out on PS3, instead of settling for a GT3 first - GT6 should easily be that GT4 now.

They aren't going to sell TT2 as DLC. They would make a lot more money selling it as a full retail game for $60.

TT was a cut-price game, around a third to two-fifths full-price. TT2 would have to be much more than TT was to justify full-price. But I don't think it ever could, given the overlap in content (i.e. tracks), so actually putting the two together in some way is, oddly enough, more efficient.

If pd bothers to mess with bikes a separate game makes the most sense. We have to go way back to gt4 and tt to get an idea, looking at the sales numbers I don't see them adding bikes to a gt title to boost sales. I would guess a very high percentage of tt sales went to those who owned or bought gt4 as well. If they do include bikes in gt6[the water would have to be spiked with lsd or some sort (see that is a joke?)] there will most likely be only one version of the game, I could see bike dlc I guess but defo not two separate versions of the game on disk.

It won't be two separate versions of the same game, more like one game with different ways to enjoy the content.
TT sales are low because it was never marketed, as it was only intended as an experiment of sorts (that worked rather well in many crucial ways).

 

[omgitsbees]

TT was a cut-price game, around a third to two-fifths full-price. TT2 would have to be much more than TT was to justify full-price. But I don't think it ever could, given the overlap in content (i.e. tracks), so actually putting the two together in some way is, oddly enough, more efficient.

Fair enough! Those are some good points.

 

[arora]

I've not seen GT6 to be able to comment.

Really? wow that was witty.

Good, exercise your power and try not to trip over it.

Simply stating my opinion, not gonna trip over anything. Thanks for your concern though.

So you're saying people aren't actually opposed to bikes in principle, it's only because they're scared GT6 won't fix what GT5 broke? Again, it's impossible to say bikes would interfere with that process at all, given it's not likely to have been bikes that broke it in the first place.

I'm saying that I am not opposed. If I had a piece of ring broken off in my engine block I would not take off the head and throw some more loose metal in there.

My personal feeling about GT5 is that they tried for a GT4 first time out on PS3, instead of settling for a GT3 first - GT6 should easily be that GT4 now.

This I can agree with.

TT was a cut-price game, around a third to two-fifths full-price. TT2 would have to be much more than TT was to justify full-price. But I don't think it ever could, given the overlap in content (i.e. tracks), so actually putting the two together in some way is, oddly enough, more efficient.

TT was a cut price game because it was an experiment gone awry. TT2 would indeed need to be much more, so much more in fact that trying to add it on to gt6 would be silly.

It won't be two separate versions of the same game, more like one game with different ways to enjoy the content.
TT sales are low because it was never marketed, as it was only intended as an experiment of sorts (that worked rather well in many crucial ways).

Well we at least agree that there will not be 2 versions of the game, fweew. TT salse could very well be low because, there is no market for it, or, Kaz's heart was not in it.

 

[Griffith500]

Really? wow that was witty.

Thank you. Yours needs some work, though.

Simply stating my opinion, not gonna trip over anything. Thanks for your concern though.

I meant it genuinely (about exercising that power); but feel free to take offence if you'd rather. With so many people, when they proudly proclaim that they shall not be buying something, it does sort of come across as a power trip; so it was just another joke, really.

I'm saying that I am not opposed. If I had a piece of ring broken off in my engine block I would not take off the head and throw some more loose metal in there.

So TT is the "piece of ring" and bikes in GT6 would be the proverbial "throwing of more loose metal" into the engine block of ... something? Is there any evidence to suggest that would actually be the case?

This I can agree with.

OK, because the rest of it should be complete (a GT4 for the PS3), adding bikes would be fine for GT6, at some point in its future?

TT was a cut price game because it was an experiment gone awry. TT2 would indeed need to be much more, so much more in fact that trying to add it on to gt6 would be silly.

In what way did it go awry? If you'd played TT you'd have thought it "silly" how much it was simply "GT with bikes"; the progression was a bit different, which was the main experiment, much like it was with GTPSP, but so much of it was shared that adding TT2 to GT6 would be remarkably easy.

Well we at least agree that there will not be 2 versions of the game, fweew. TT salse could very well be low because, there is no market for it, or, Kaz's heart was not in it.

It wouldn't have happened if Kaz's "heart" wasn't "in it". You know it took Kaz years to convince his superiors to let him make GT, because there simply wasn't the market for it. Similarly, there wasn't the market for a game like DayZ, and look at what happened with that!

 

[mjm23race]

TT2 would indeed need to be much more, so much more in fact that trying to add it on to gt6 would be silly.

TT salse could very well be low because, there is no market for it

The rest of GT6 is the "much more" that TT would need.

There must be a market for bike games. They get the WSBK and MotoGp licenses and pump them out every year. I am pretty sure they are not giving those licenses away for free, and the games are garbage year after year and anyone that has bought any 1 of them knows it. But they keep pumping them out, so they must be making money at it. I guess there is a new batch of suckers every year to wrangle in. PD could actually absorb that whole market based on the merits of the game.

 

[arora]

Thank you. Yours needs some work, though.

ok

I meant it genuinely (about exercising that power); but feel free to take offence if you'd rather. With so many people, when they proudly proclaim that they shall not be buying something, it does sort of come across as a power trip; so it was just another joke, really.

Well I have been a die hard fan for gt since, forever. There is no pride in saying I'm not so interested in gt6 atm, it's just stating a fact about me. No power trip I promise, in fact, I thought shift was total sift. Not do detract from a gt convo and hoping no one gets all derailed, pcars does look very promising.

So TT is the "piece of ring" and bikes in GT6 would be the proverbial "throwing of more loose metal" into the engine block of ... something? Is there any evidence to suggest that would actually be the case?

That was my analogy, yes. No, there is no knowledge of gt6 available at all. It's my opinion that gt5 has so many problems though, to add............ you already know.

OK, because the rest of it should be complete (a GT4 for the PS3), adding bikes would be fine for GT6, at some point in its future?

I think a separate game would be better but, if they get their ducks in a row, whatever would be fine.

In what way did it go awry? If you'd played TT you'd have thought it "silly" how much it was simply "GT with bikes"; the progression was a bit different, which was the main experiment, much like it was with GTPSP, but so much of it was shared that adding TT2 to GT6 would be remarkably easy.

I did not care for it tbh, I didn't buy it but I have played it. The progression or any of those aspects of game play are not my concern atm, it did not seem at all like riding a bike. Maybe I am too demanding, the cars in gt I have plenty of complaints about as well.

It wouldn't have happened if Kaz's "heart" wasn't "in it". You know it took Kaz years to convince his superiors to let him make GT, because there simply wasn't the market for it. Similarly, there wasn't the market for a game like DayZ, and look at what happened with that!

Good point, one of the reasons I like Kaz so much. I still don't see cycles being anywhere near where his passion is atm. Could be wrong of course, it's not a mater of what I hope as I hope for nothing really. I am jaded enough however, that I cannot help but think gt6 will not be so great and as I've said before.. Throwing a gimmick in will not make it any better.

ps. No bikes in gt6 please