Mr Latte - Question?

  • Thread starter RW65
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Not going into great detail here, while it is a bit of a victory moment post Im quite out of my depth with trying for the first time to get used in working with a DAW.

Just getting to a point of having all the inputs detected and going into the hardware/software. Then learning how to implement plugins and mainly in my case researching/finding the best audio visualiser EQ plugin types that are available for such audio professional applications.

I have so far achieved the basics (monitoring 2 channel music from tablet in this example)
Still awaiting cables to arrive to get the Simvibe connected up properly but thought I needed to start and try to get to grips with this side of things.

Using "FL Studio 12" and the most amazing audio EQ visualiser in "Fabfilter Pro Q2"

While I am only at this stage using this for monitoring inputs only. Although yes it offers so much more control of an audio input than anything I have ever come across and much more advance than say inuke DSP features. Just playing around with "Pro Q2" is awesome in being able to monitor in headphones each frequency or change within the EQ happening in real-time with the input source.

From the perspective of doing what is needed in monitoring/analysing Simvibe this will provide amazing detail to the incoming frequencies and allow so much more understanding of its operation with whatever effects are selected for one or all channels. Getting it working using a suitable monitoring solution is one thing but the task of going through all features and doing many,many tests within Simvibe itself is quite a mountain still to climb. At least now all the gear is in place and soon the expedition can begin.



Pro Q2 also offers a high resolution full-screen mode that I will put on a secondary monitor. Image below of full screen mode. Showing a simple look from below 20Hz - over 100Hz. I can have the monitor work with zero latency and at very fast to very slow speeds. You can have it show the peak values that will be handy to see a range of common frequencies that are being used and specifically examine individual frequencies. See around 6:40 in the video below. It really is an amazing bit of software.

Might not look that special with a screen cap but really this IS going to do what I've wanted and waited so long to try out.

Taking into account the cost of the hardware/software/plugins/ additional cables this has not been cheap to implement and was a bit of a relief. Lets say it was a very pleasing moment like a kid with candy just to be doing this and see it working for real at my finger tips.



Looks great in action


 
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Annnnnnnnnnd its working :)

Here is a rather messy (all on one screen multi window) example of the first ever test.
It is only representing that I have got Simvibe output going into the DAW and using the Pro Q2 plugin with a secondary wave generator plugin also operating.

Highlighting:
  • Grid 2
  • Chassis Effects = ON @ Default Settings (NO TEXTURES)
  • Monitoring Chassis Mode / Front Right Channel ONLY (during this test)


Take note this is only a capture from a split moment.
It is possible for me to monitor a full lap and to have PEAK values for all frequencies to be analysed. This media keyboard I have does not have print screen feature so is a little awkward trying to take screen caps.

Alternatively as previously mentioned it is also possible to record in realtime and come back to it later for much deeper analysis. This will be good for when wanting to look and compare the 4 Chassis Channels.

Okay so back to this brief capture and example.
Immediately we can tell that:
  • Upto 200Hz is operating from 0db
  • Their is a little spike from some effect @150Hz
  • By 300Hz the signal is at -3db
  • The highest peak is approx 35Hz at +10 db.
  • The very lowest frequency at under 10Hz is at +6db.
  • After 50Hz this signal begins to drop

Doing the same but with individual effects ONLY within the OUTPUT MIXER would enable similar findings but essentially for only that effect and the user settings applied. It is then possible to adjust settings per effect to see what the changes within Simvibe are actually doing.

From this it is then possible I believe to tune each effect so that they work much better together. Early days but looks positive for going forward.
 
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"Road Textures" only with setting of "Signal Conditioning" at 1000.
Again this just the single wheel in this example.


The two colours represent two things.

The lighter purple is the "Realtime Monitor" and the darker one represents the db "PEAK OUTPUT" for the entire lap(s).

This will be handy feature to see how changes within Simvibe settings will alter and perhaps effect the output. Not a lot of difference in this example and surprisingly keeps to the same pattern just seemingly increasing in db.

Its something like this you cant just feel or hear with headphones so it does look like I have a LOT of tests to do but will discover what changes make to effects and how different effects operate.

Achieved what I wanted for so long and can play about with this for many weeks to come.
Will need a GPU to be able to do this with no masisve CPU hit as currently only using the onboard intel HD530 GFX.
 
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Darn is so good in finally being able to mess around with all this.
All the research seems to be paying off but its a nice challenge and to be doing something I have shared long ago but nobody seemed to take it upon themselves to do. Thanks for leaving it to me guys!


MeWTGNkm.png

:)
Getting to grips with the DAW and plugins now, just poking fun here...​
 
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Still awaiting some cables so what you see below is duplicated stereo audio output from the PC for this example but all ready to go with 4 mono channels of Simvibe Chassis.

Get this, 4 channels with all this monitoring and only using 2% CPU usage (i7 6700k / 4.6Ghz) using the multi-threading that the DAW supports. (see the small 2 at top of screen)




Using this config of plugins it is very easy to monitor each CM channel in great detail. Much cheaper hardware could of only supported 2 channels at a time. That would of made trying to see comparisons between the front/rear much harder to compare. Now I can do a practice of lap(s) have it recorded and go over it as many times as I like seeing all channels together and how they were effected, even do so with slower refresh to allow more time to view the frequencies or pause at any moment.

I can also adapt this for full DTS/Dolby multichannel monitoring if I wanted for "game audio" and then using the power of the tools within the mixer/plugins to tweak it. So basically this new addition for my build will also let me get the utmost from any game or audio source.

Really impressed so far with the possibilities but now need to stop intruding in RWs thread.
Perhaps a progress report in the future with a new thread, not sure what to do.
 
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So how does this new PC with only HD530 graphics handle running Simvibe / Game Windowed & Monitoring 4 Channels within a DAW.

Here is a brief example of Simvibe being monitored.
Yes I know GRID2 isnt much of a sim but it is only early testing.
I guess much of @RW65 and my "theories" were wrong on what effects may be constant or not. In this example "impacts" are not just for crashes but are also triggered with left/right body movement of the chassis.

So easy to determine now what Simvibe IS doing.



GRID 2 "Impacts" BRIEF TEST ONLY
  • Not active under acceleration or braking
  • Active with L/R movement of chassis
  • Operating in STEREO only
  • Not multidirectional in this title
  • Front & Rear channels seem to be duplicated
  • Frequencies were generated a little beyond the "Big/Small TONE" user settings
 
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My last thoughts and summary...

What To Do
Need to consider if I want to do an ongoing test thread for this somewhere in the future and share findings or just get more apt at doing videos and put them on Youtube. To do the process right requires some thought on how to best do tests and collect all the data from them for comparison. Torn if their is much interest in such although new people are coming to Simvibe all the time and really still so much has not been properly learned about it.

Early Discoveries
After spending a few hours with this and trying some effects its quite clear how wrongly I or others have perceived some effects to operate or what they represented in this thread. Also how some things in previously released guides are not specifically accurate neither from what I have discovered so far.

What Hasnt Been Done
The more I have learned the more I think an updated general guide may be flawed....

When I come to think about it nobody has done a close look at each specific title and go through all the effects that work for that title, to catalogue them and then list what each effect or slider option does. What may be recommended settings and what should be perceived as a list of effects that should get priority from first to last.

Concentrate On My Own Build Or Seek To Do More?
I'm such a nerd that this interests me but it would be much better than a general guide I feel and enables closer examination into specific tuning. Also learning from people if willing to test with me how different peoples cockpits and tactile hardware may vary and work better with specific frequencies for certain effects differently to other units.
If response from others helped highlight this then it is possible to learn how some tactile should have different recommendations for a user to try or utilise. The whole template idea never took off and Simvibe only make their own to match their Stage 5 systems which vary greatly to many peoples own builds or cockpits.

Seek To Go Further?
I will reserve proper evaluation until further testing is done but the operation of effects within Simvibe may of course vary also in certain games but I am pleased that this approach makes it very easy to determine what is happening and sometimes not happening regards frequencies, their db output and of course showcase when any effect is in operation. It does bring the possibility of extracting the full potential out of what the software provides.

User Confusion?
Right away I noticed that the intensity of output can easily be mishandled causing especially my own BK to go crazy. Also that specific usage of the tones that some effects use greatly changes the feeling or character that effects has and its possible enjoyment. I think many overlook the tone generation and it again has not been properly understood in relation to optimising the usage of those that should have priority against others and how to best use the frequencies. Also never in over 2 years of research did I come across proper explanation of how textures differ from other effects and that many people turn them off.


Those Sliders, Filters & Modifiers
Finding out how sensitivity and volume differ with regards sliders on certain effects, also the dynamic tone sensitivity and false clue elimination. Adding repeat effects, using modifiers to achieve the best effect. All these can now be fully realised to how effective they are the benefits they bring or indeed how little some are when being applied.

Early Surprises
In GRID 2 "IMPACTS" have nothing to do with crashing into other cars/barriers as I assumed that effect was for. [edit] they do operate if False Clue Elimination is not set too high...

Previously thinking "TEXTURES" may of specifically used high frequencies for minor detailin igs also totally inaccurate. "VERTICAL SURGES" are not only for when just going over crescents. Some effects are active for road surface detailing others are only active during cornering to highlight chassis load. They should have their own unique feelings created by the user to separate each imho. Some operate with high consistency in operation and others like morse code blips, so certain effects work much better with specific frequencies and intensity or they can feel very annoying with unsuitable settings. These are just some early findings from this title alone but it has opened my eyes eager to learn more.

Yes and this is not the best title to use. So of course later I will advance more onto proper simulations once I get a decent GPU to make it possible to run the games better when doing all the monitoring.

Thanks to those that followed in here and to those that took part, thanks again also to RW for his charts and input too.
 
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I think that your tactile journey has just entered phase 2. It's a completely different world to what you saw in the past.

And to get you completely crazy here : Simshaker- a telemetry- tactile software I just discovered that originally started as a flight sim tactile project (yeah, it was about time as well) for DCS , and has recently started to expand compatibility to sim racing!!!! This guy also sells his own tactile seat cover called gametrix that utilizes small motors for the vibrations (like the CSP's vibration) which is praised a lot on the DCS forums for the immersion it adds. But it works with shakers as well. I think only two channels but I am not sure.

I don't have my rig set up to test it but its there , its free and on the move.

Things are starting to become really exciting.


Mr.Latte ,
I know that your concern is the community's feedback and cooperation. Rest assured that a lot of people are interested even though not many are willing to contribute for their own reasons.
I do believe that information on Simvibe is scarce on the web - almost non existent. If you are willing to offer informative videos on youtube I am sure that you will help a lot of people to take the plunge on a tactile setup. There are people asking all the time on various forums about it.
You just have to make sure that the videos are easy to watch and are more explanatory than confusing.(your first two videos are only a reference to what you're saying in your post here - if anyone finds it on youtube it doesnt make sense what he's seeing)

I encourage you to do what you find interesting and continue having fun with your toys. Sharing is caring.

Good luck!
 
I remember a tactile hardware thing similar to that only a few were made, forget its name but the forums were very inactive for it for a long time.

The video on Youtube was done for sebj at ISR on a post I made (I believe he's the guy who did the unofficial guide). I never linked it in here but did put it in my own tactile thread for the sake of sharing it. I guess it seems I am amongst the first to of bothered to try and do such type of monitoring. I did add some info in the description for the video. As for the second being the NOOB with Youtube uploading that I am it is the same thing with just an attached audio track from You Tube library. I assumed it would of replaced the original but alas it didn't.

I need to find perhaps a more PC/Sim specific forum to consider doing a detailed thread on my research or tests. Its not worthwhile here, getting views with people not responding is pointless. Id rather have 20 views and 3 guys chatting.

* PS need to sort your stuff next week this has side tracked things...
 
Great work so far mate.
I completely understand your views, in your absence this whole hardware section had went into a decline. Definitely not the same as when I first found it.
If I were you I'd start a thread in each sims official forum and only discuss tactile/simvibe for that sim.
If you want to do a guide that is.
I think the main issue with interaction is that simvibe has been around for so long now most are happy with it, like a part of the furniture. To get people interested you might need to show them how to get better settings or what works versus not?
My guess is that none really experiment that much anyway.

Thanks for all your hard work and time buddy
 
I agree with your points and suggestions Mark and yes the official forums for each game/sim may be a good idea.

When researching I even noticed that the original Simvibe thread here practically died after only 2-3 months of its release. That may be a case for other forums also but in general the topic is rather flat everywhere. As you say people perhaps make settings they feel happy enough with and leave it.

Like you once highlighted I am a "special case" lol :)

Guys can you please confirm if ANY Codemaster titles have working suspension effects? In Grid 2 they are selectable but do nothing.

P'CARS has none even selectable whatsoever so I am curious if Assetto Corsa has or which titles actually use independent suspension? I have yet to buy AC and Dirt and yet to test i-racing or others.
 
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Ah so independent suspension you can confrim works per wheel with these rather than an effect relying on whole chassis. They are not just listed or possible to add and do nothing like GRID2?

Appreciate if you can check each does something if run by itself, cheers 👍
 
Appreciate if you do a L/R kerb test on those titles you mentioned with just suspension bumps. Just want to be sure the effect is not listed or selectable but not operating as like GRID2. Really hope AC has it working as had looked forward to this.

I got i-racing working as it seems to have a recent issue. Works by launching it from your web browser first and then running COM4 and selecting i-racing manually. So far it is the only title I have found offers stereo effects for the wheels with right kerbs happening on the right and left kerbs on the left.

Disappointed to find that P Cars does not have this. So it seems only titles that have working suspension are proper multi-dimensional then. I may be fussing but damn it is a bit of a let down so many titles are possibly not.
 
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Ik can confirm that AC works in stereo with the chassis mode. If i drive with two wheels only on the curbs, i can only feel them on that side.
 
Morning, yeah I just turned on and without even seeing your post Rodney that was my idea too lol not independent as Henk said. I can drive over the curbs with only my front wheel and feel it on the rear.
 
Cheers guys...

Currently I have TST 429 & LFE on the seat L/R set to front just for now. Later today will place engine on pedals and back of seat via EM. I do however have the 4 subwoofers in chassis all 4 mode.

Don't get me wrong even with GRID2 I have some superb effects working and being delivered with intense amounts of energy. Yes it is rather superb, I have got a grasp on what ALL of the sliders now do but want to do more testing with other titles to be certain. I have achieved a good balance for all frequencies for various effects so that I avoid "frequency masking" from happening and in general some people would be utter blown away with this as so much can be felt or detected. I even have the wind noise working rather excellent too.

* Tests are not fully conclusive yet so subject to mistakes on my part are possible!

However.....

Within this thread I highlighted my purpose of building a rig that would maximise L/R effects to keep them separated as best possible. Getting ready for stage 2 of the rig build soon. Planning things now that this is up and running. So I find it a bit disappointing to find little of "Multi-Dimensional" effects for independent wheels.

Stay Calm:

"SimXperience SimVibe is an advanced, multi-dimensional audio based feedback software (for racing simulators and cockpits) that utilizes one to eight bass transducers (ButtKickers, Bass Shakers, etc..) to provide the correct physics based vibrations at each corner of your simulator and throughout the simulator."


I jest, perhaps its me and my reading/understanding of that is wrong.

To me if stereo is only duplicated over front and rear then that is basically A/B stereo in operation. If Multi-Dimensional is a modern term used to represent this then I have still to discover it fully operating with 4 fully independent channels. Most likely i-racing will be as clearly Berney had a closer relationship with those devs than other studios. It does seem to be the sim that has the most effects operating too. So soon I will look into it as part of my interest is going through all effects on most titles that interest me and discover what is the very best sim(s) for tactile immersion experience.

With the monitoring now in place I can tell instantly what and how each wheel is operating to the other as well as hear it with the 4 sub-woofers. So their is no hiding what each effect or wheel is doing or if two rears are just repeating what the front does. I can slow down the speed at which the monitoring runs at to very slow. This makes it easier to see all the frequencies varying from the 4 channels too.

Recap:
Perhaps many titles operate on CHASSIS basis and not independent wheels like offering STEREO separation via "Suspension". This needs to be determined yet for what each sim offers and how each compares. I will say I have found head on crashes or reversing into walls disappointing often doing nothing (with early testing) yet side on impacts work.

From my own crazy cockpit perspective...
I will try comparing having audio on the subwoofers with the tactile running as normal to see if that helps increase the stereo immersion even with games that operate without the functioning L/R of "suspension" effects. I know from previous tests with using only 1 LFE with "audio tactile" that the brain can be fooled to some extent. For instance if a kerb is felt on a seat in general via both sides but heard on the "right" it increases the perception it came from the "right" hand side anyways. Headphones help do this also but I find it more satisfying with deep audible bass in the room creating a larger sound-field of the effect.

@Carson79
Cheers buddy, Id say to make sure windows is in "quad mode" or in 5.1 in windows 10 with "centre & sub" disabled.
If you have that correct and not stereo in windows then from what you say Mark "stereo" works but is just being duplicated for the rear wheels and this again is still not fully multi-dimensional with independent wheels.

Personally I dont mind the rears if not fully independent if indeed this is the case. Perhaps i-racing or other sim will deliver it. Yet if a car rammed into your back left corner I would like to feel it in the back left corner only. That was again part of the discussion in here of building the best configuration of tactile for power delivery/impact and to maximise each corner.

I will say that some effects with limited settings feel rather poor in their delivery. PCARS is notable for this, really I find only about 2-3 of its possible effects having much impact. This may be a game that potentially could be better on audio tactile in some respects (on my system at least) yet even in audio it does not deliver prominent stereo for kerbs either as I have said in various places/times.

Thanks for your responses as usual you have to put up with my long winded drivel.
 
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For the last week I've been reading up on transducers and amp, and wanted to say across all the forums you've been incredibly helpful mr. latte.
If anyone has a minute for input, this is what I suspect I will move forward with once I get confirmation on the electrical setup.
4 tst 239 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JZTOIE6/?tag=gtplanet-20
1 Behringer NU4 6000 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LGNFAIC/?tag=gtplanet-20
1 Creative Sound Blaster Audigy PCIe RX 7.1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EO6X7PG/?tag=gtplanet-20
Now the confusing part - what goes to the amp, from the sound card and to the tsts:
1 GLS Audio 6ft Cable 1/8" TRS Stereo to XLR Male - 6' http://www.amazon.com/dp/B006LRPF7Y/?tag=gtplanet-20
1 4pack GLS Audio Speaker Plug Twist Lock 4 Pole Speaker Plug https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LW8VLRU/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AD6O342M484G6
14 guage 100 feet (or use 12, manual says either) http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00I8V8XC0/?tag=gtplanet-20
Do you still need some additional amount of Neutrik to piece this together? Also, are there isolaters that are known to pair well with the 239s? I will also be buying simvibe. Primarily will be playing assetto corsa and rf2.

Thanks for any assistance, its a bummer I'm not knowledgeable enough with this field to offer much assistance to others like me once my question gets answered, but I'll keep an eye out.
 
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@pgconboy you seem to have a good grasp on things:)

The Nu4-6000 while 4 channel is overkill for TST239 in wattage terms.
Care would need to be taken not to overload the units.

Personally I would opt for dual inuke-dsp 1000 to have the benefits of the wattage limiter even if you have no interest in the other dsp features. I discovered Simvibe does emit a bit of a slight hiss with TST units. I dont think this is an electrical interference or issue with my own gear but again with the DSP model you could use the built in EQ or have a high pass filter to restrict exactly the Hz range you need.

The DB output of Simvibe at 0db is rather insane, this helps the amplifier to require less wattage so you will not be using anything close to the amplifiers capacity. This will ensure it is under less load. The fans however on many PA amps inc the Behringer are quite loud so take this into consideration. Below is a quieter solution and one you might find a bargain if you do not mind second hand purchase.

I have been currently running 4x TST 429 and 1x TST 329 all from a single Sony Es 5200 amplifier.
Going strong at almost 10 years old... :)

You might find if it interests you a similar quality Home Cinema / Receiver at a bargain price. Yamaha/Pioneer/Denon/Onkyo as examples. 80w - 100w per channel should be fine which most old school mid-high range models would easily have.

The only requirements are it having 4ohm speaker switching and the now rare or not found at all "Multichannel Inputs". Ignore any posts made in forums of people saying "Home Cinema Receivers" are not suitable because of DSP or rear channels at limited wattage. By using "Multichannel Input" unlike conventional stereo RCA inputs it bypasses all DSP modes and such units will enable you to control the full wattage to all channels. Also such amplifiers in most cases should have same level of amplification for all channels. Multichannel basically takes the inputs source from several channels and amplifies them even bypassing bass/treble controls.
 
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Here you go...

Cables PC:
PC-Amp (if Behringer) 2x 3.5mm TRS to DUAL XLR Stereo (1 Front GREEN / 1 Rear BLACK)
Be sure to get DUAL XLR for stereo L/R connections.

Cables Amp:
Easy way to keep track, XLR is for the amps "INPUT" & "SPEAKON" is for the "SPEAKER CABLES" and amps "OUTPUT".

You have things correct for the other cables with the SPEAKON going to the tactile.
It is possible to have SPEAKON connection for the amp and also as a MALE/FEMALE to act as a coupler for a tidier connection to the tactile. This easily allows you to unplug the tactile if you like this option but it will add to the price.

Soundcard:
I can confirm the Asux Xonar DSX operates with no isues at all and is affordable.

I have had issues with my motherboards "Creative Audio" with sometimes it not doing anything. So the Creative card you are looking at see if other users are running without issues. It might be driver/windows 10 not sure but annoying for it to work then next day on a reboot not.

So I changed it from being the "Chassis" card and use it for "Extension". It now is working fine. Also I discovered that in this mode it will operate Simvibe Extensions (2) via the "Speaker Out" but also output my game audio via SP-DIF digital out. I really like this option.

This lets me take advantage of the audio quality which is better than typical on-board and one of the reasons I purchased the motherboard. You may want the creative for similar or its other features for FPS gaming when not using as a Simvibe card.
 
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Thanks for taking the time and responding so thoroughly. I initially had 2 dual inuke-dsp 1000 in my shopping cart but noticed 1 6000 was 50 dollars cheaper. The money is close enough that i'd pay the 50 if it matches up better with the transducers.
 
Long posts are my way :embarrassed:
If you go with the Behringer be sure to register them for warranty. Varies with different countries....
 
Carson79
Morning, yeah I just turned on and without even seeing your post Rodney that was my idea too lol not independent as Henk said. I can drive over the curbs with only my front wheel and feel it on the rear.
Click to expand...


Thanks for that Mark, your on the ball...

It is what it is, but found it rather amusing some of you have had this for so long and are still a bit baffled what games or their specific effects actually do or how/when they are active. I get it too. For some it doesn't matter if its both front/rear wheels or just the one but my testing or work towards any guides will be thorough and seek to be accurate as possible.

I have spent over 15hrs with GRID2 testing getting to grips with all the effects and settings. To discover when/how they operate and find settings that help them blend in with other effects. Lots of notes for future reference....

Really made some great progress and while not a sim or new game by any means it has some superb tactile effects.
Not got to do much comparison yet to other titles and need to get back into P Cars for proper testing of it.

I did notice that P Cars seems to have excessive output strength but I still have lots to learn regards if effects in how they operate is consistent over titles or varies.

My question is......

While I am happy to mess around with my own tests...
Sometime later if you or indeed others have time I would like to do a new thread for joint tests. Have an interest to discuss with others and share settings/preferences. Ideally to try and discover if/what settings for effects could be optimised for the different common tactile that people have. The idea of this is that it would be useful knowledge for a fatty latte in-depth guide for specific titles that I want to do.

Is anyone here interested in a new thread covering such for P'Cars or Assetto Corsa and which if so would people prefer to discuss or test?
 
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I checked my local craigslist, nothing that fits my particular needs but it is easy to see that with a little luck people could save a few hundred dollars getting an amp(s). Had I started searching a month ago and tried getting the amp first I probably would have been a little better off.
 
Excellent news Mark, only needs 1-2hrs in a week but peoples input will be appreciated. Trying to remember your config consists of, IIRC its Mini LFE / TST209 / BK Advance?

@asteroulis you encouraged me last October to get off my backside and do something towards building a cockpit.
So soon I shall return the favour with your upcoming delivery. :) I hope you can also take part with your Bass Pump / Aura Pro combo.

Also looking owners of Aura Pro / ADX that might want to take part and if someone with a Dayton Puc configuration or others are willing to contribute then such would be jolly excellent!!!

Meanwhile I can work on a "cunning plan"
 

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