Mr Latte - Question?

[dedraro]

Hello mr Latte, in this regard just recently I was thinking to mount 4 bass shaker for chassis mode, now I mount 4 reckhorn, and 2 bassPUMP III, respectively, with an Thomann E-400 and konig 2400 to amplify them, now already so including the sound card I spent on the 500/600 € I would not have to face again an expense for chassis mod, since amp 4x100W+ (unless you assemble yourself) are from 250/300€ up. I was thinking of taking a 4x50W amp with 4 bass shaker 50W and mod like this:

Add to it a disc of 1kg, which in theory, and as I read it should ensure that the shots of the bass shaker will amplify a lot, but my doubt is, what are the side effects of a change of this kind? Besides of course a possible breakage of the same. What other defects may occur after this mod? A slower response? Lower details? What do you think?

 

[Mr Latte]

While I do applaud ingenuity in this area. I really cannot comment much on such mods, like the previous by @asteroulis. I am not an audio engineer or scientific one but I have concern by placing additional weight/force onto the magnets in it creating added resistance and how in relation to the amplifier is this effected? If adding additional resistance then I would expect the speed to possibly be effected or more wattage/energy needed to balance the additional resistance/weight.

Really though I think the strength of the magnets is a major factor to consider. To generate very low Hz energy requires lots of magnetic force/energy. The Clark TST 429 for instance its magnetic strength could pick nuts/bolts up off a floor from about 6" away. It uses a 27oz 42 MGO neodymium based magnet. Its magnetic energy from the magnets it uses in this regards are much more powerful than those in the other TST models.

So possibly a limitation I think will be the power of the magnet in the subwoofer or modified tactile unit used to how low the DEPTH of the Hz felt will be. Yet these examples you guys are showing will bring a tactile experience on the cheap, it might even if a tactile unit is modded like you are considering possibly have an increased impact/thud, although will it deliver a greater depth in Hz? It is all rather scientific and down to energy but if you compare the specs of the various TST units only the 429 goes down to approx 5Hz (in listed specifications) some are 10Hz some are 15Hz and the audible frequencies also differ with the TST209 only from 35Hz so clearly I see this in relation to the power of the magnet used as all TST units use similar operating wattage.

Also in the way some people have used Buttkickers tactile energy to push springs to try and resemble suspension, this in my view is adding additional strain/force or using the unit beyond its design/purpose. Will it harm the unit or amplifier I do not know but doubt Buttkicker would support such application under warranty.

Not sure about such modifications. It reminds me of a scenario, a bit like adding a bit of foam to reduce the noise of a piston. Sure okay fine, does it also increase the response of a BK unit due to the rebound or increased dampening having effect? We take it for granted as that is how it is marketed, seeing no such data to support better response or performance. Nothing from a technical or scientific evaluation/comparison of vibration measurements. No data or video analysis to illustrate how or where such is improved, or what if any potential detrimental effects it may itself introduce regards detailing or any other factors, such is unknown.

Essentially modding or your doing, while it might accomplish a cheap entry into tactile, will it accomplish a good or better tactile immersion, perhaps more thud but possibly with less response/timing or in other ways such as detailing and with possible concerns about durability or amplification loads potentially being effected, it perhaps brings many such questions.

I certainly though watch with interest.

 

[dedraro]

Thanks mr Latte, I guess I'll try to deal with this mod, also I think there will be a decline in terms of detail, but I have to see what is the right compromis, if the thud will be much greater are willing to sacrifice a bit of detail, definitely take the bass shaker cheaper in circulation, the yellow 50W, which are also found at 15 €. I'll certainly know you. bye.

 

[Mr Latte]

Certainly keep us posted, some may like the idea and possibilities when used with Simvibe.
How well they cope with really low Hz or very fast effects like road bumps or surges.

 

[Mr Latte]

So with some recent talk at looking at ways to further possible tactile enjoyment and with creative thinking.

I hadn't been on the SimXperience forums in a while regards the Simvibe discusions and came across a Mr Luukkonen. He has shown his experimenting with 2 Mini LFE operating in a way the the piston energy flexes plastic/metal so that the surface hits behind the legs to help give more immersion. I found it interesting though certainly a bit less crazy to his Buttkicker helmet or dual Buttkicker vest ideas.

My advice or a tip to him or anyone if you want to try and get more tactile into specific body parts/regions and by a method that is very cheap and very easy to do. I would recommend using some speaker cable.

• Have the cable looped/attached with good contact to tactile surface of the actual unit.
• It needs to be kept tight in tension for best effect
• Make a loop or harness with the cable wrapped around whatever body parts you want

This wont produce a smack/thud like Mr Luukkonen solution of course but it should work with most units at decent power levels. I assure you, smooth vibrations will be detectable and it certainly can help increase the perception. Works well with L/R for the appropriate legs/arms/shoulders. I had considered adapting a proper race harness at one time (still have the harness) for this idea but give it a go if you want to experiment.

A simple test is just have the cable wrapped around your hands 2-3 times, in contact with a bit of your arm and perhaps the cable laying across your thigh with even using a joypad. I guess somebody could get creative with this idea/approach and velcro pads or trying to take it further if they wanted.

Just keep good tension in the cable and enjoy the vibes...

 

[Mr Latte]

My Simvibe Testing Situation

Just an update that I hope within the next 2 months to be in a position to begin and conduct my own testing and ready to do full RTA monitoring of Simvibes effects and general settings.

Some will be rather easy to determine others will require much more work. Understanding of the following is desired. (Multi-dimensional / Stereo / Mono based effects) / (Dynamic Tone Adjustment & Dynamic Volume Adjustment regards Small - Big Tone Values) / (What Hz "Textures" typically use and their general operation)

While not posted here. After some research regards the importance of the motion physics data. I believe I now have a better understanding in relation to what may be the...

• Suspension & Road/Surface Based Effects
• Chassis & G Force XYZ Axis (Pitch/Roll/Yaw) Based Effects

Of course testing/evaluation will determine how accurate the current theory and understanding is but the above should be relevant factors. From various users own admission some effects re-creation by tactile may not be individually/properly conveyed, or is potentially restricted/lost on a single tactile units operation with other active effects. "They feel similar " is often the response and previously discussed here.

The Mono / Stereo Consideration?
If my understanding is right, to describe this would be that possibly "Independent suspension" is MONO based to each of the ALL4 suspension (eg front left wheel over left kerb). "Chassis" load is "Front-Back" based, operating in STEREO (eg braking/acceleration) for altering the surge of the car but also "Left-Right" based operating in STEREO (eg body roll) of the car. Yet both these axis may also be effected by the physics data regards the vertical load or heave from the vertical Z axis.

So suspension based effects/surfaces could feel similar to forces of when the car chassis is under load and be mistaken to be doing the same thing. Also as highlighted with @RW65 charts the default settings for each of the separate effects involved being similar, their sensitivity and effect creation controls.

I assume, to be successful in this would first require these effects (if/when properly understood) to have unique differences in how they are felt over the tactile. Understanding when/how they operate is only part of the process. Their is however plenty of scope within the "Tone Generation" and possible individual intensities to make them feel very different. What is not known without testing is how well it works in real operation but few I feel have really tried to delve into this often opting to turn certain effects off instead.

Just seems so much is unknown about this or between what may be independent suspension based and what are Chassis G Force related across the Vertical/Lateral/Longitudinal Axis. I certainly want to unravel Simvibes potential. So this research is required to better understand their independent operation but also to be realistic and determine which effects are most-least important based on immersion value.

To consider...

• Is it even possible to highlight or separate their own unique operation via tactile?
• What is the potential/best application of effects for a typical user?
• What is the best application or configuration possible?

These will ALL of course be restricted by what each sim offers but that is another interesting factor.

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Can anyone discuss if the best "motion" from sims (for track detail/realism) also equates to titles having better/more detail or general performance in Simvibe. This would be appreciated.

What are the top 3 esteemed sims in this regard?
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[RW65]

Thanks again ML... sweet post... more solid info that is helping me to better understand this "science" & the SC4 software.

Greatly looking forward to your reporting of testing experiences coming up soon...

In regards to the top 3 esteemed sims you search for, from my considerable research over the past year I would consider iRacing as the number one & would even pencil in that this sim was used extensively as a benchmark at SimX for their motion simulator & Simvibe software... laser scanned tracks & accurately modelled car & tire models is an iRacing specialty... but not to say that there aren't other sim/game makers who offer a quality product & experience.

As a disclaimer, this is my opinion & I stand by it as my research goes... but everybody knows, opinions are like butt holes... everyone's got one

Cheers

 

[Mr Latte]

Yes I think iRacing is the main go-to sim for Berney having worked closely with them and some of the extra features it offers. While I expect it to be very good I also am interested in AC but not sure how well this works in comparison but it is easier to test various cars/tracks without the career side of things or buying extra content that iRacing may require.

I have gathered some user comments made over the years regards various effects based on their own findings from various forums. Some of this from early delving into Simvibe but also how different cars or oval tracks etc things can vary. It makes sense that different cars have various suspension, ride height, rake and tracks like ovals are rather different to typical race tracks.

Imola or Spa seem two tracks on my mind that might be good for possible testing as they have a mix of corners, mid to high speeds, good L/R rumble strip sections but also large incline and parts of the track that descend.

With not having a motion rig before it is hard trying to determine a good baseline for which tracks are amongst the best/most active. So where to begin tests of Simvibe and with what possible car is (active/responsive) as a good baseline to work from.

 

[Mr Latte]

Simvibe Engine Accuracy?
Very simple question is their sense to my madness to consider monitoring the "Audio Frequencies" of a sims engine sounds. To then try to accurately employ settings within Simvibe Engine Effects to give an accurate representation of the real audio frequencies.

I could be forgetting but do not think I have seen discussion of this on Simvibe based threads/forum.

Yet if a game uses a good accurate engine from the audio already or a community mod one for a specific car which is highly rated was used in tactile is their not instances regards engine that Simvibe is at a disadvantage in generating its own and possible not even accurate to the car being driven?

 

[asteroulis]

Simvibe Engine Accuracy?
Very simple question is their sense to my madness to consider monitoring the "Audio Frequencies" of a sims engine sounds. To then try to accurately employ settings within Simvibe Engine Effects to give an accurate representation of the real audio frequencies.

I could be forgetting but do not think I have seen discussion of this on Simvibe based threads/forum.

Yet if a game uses a good accurate engine from the audio already or a community mod one for a specific car which is highly rated was used in tactile is their not instances regards engine that Simvibe is at a disadvantage in generating its own and possible not even accurate to the car being driven?

Exactly what I was thinking the previous week!

 

[Mr Latte]

Exactly what I was thinking the previous week!

I have been testing "engine audio" from P Cars on PS4 using fullsze LFE in pedals and fullsize LFE in my seat with all the other tactile my seat has.

Reducing the audio of other effects from "in game settings" lets the audio from the engine be the main component in the audio signal. The BMW GT3 for example the tactile energy in this is rather crazy, feels very deep and with vibes going beyond my knees from the pedal based unit. Having that working with the same level of energy in the seat is quite immense. The smaller units just cannot create that sensation of power and delivery of the effect that an engine really needs to feel almost emotional in its signature characteristics.

Interestingly I noticed that within the game engine audio as the engine tone rises yes the low bass drops off (natural) but upon hitting the rev limit it produces a very low Hz frequency which is very cool (feels intense) and a feature I wanted to replicate in Simvibe (by engine based filtering) not just have a "gear change" effect upon each change of gear.

My point in raising this is that I can assure anyone that "game audio tactile" still can be very good, especially these days with rather realistic "audio samples used" the main issue is lack of control of individual effects of course and in many games the road surface bump detail/textures are non existent. Things that Simvibe may indeed address but this "Engine" example is perhaps where Simvibe is at a disadvantage in that such needs to be generated by the user when the "game audio" may have all the genuine frequencies and sound signature of the real thing ready to be used.

 

[Mr Latte]

@RW65 here is a new layout in reference to the recent PM.

(edited too much repeated dribble)
Below is not final...

Chassis Mode: Suspension Bumps Surges Textures
​

Chassis & Extension Mode
Usage for Engine including "Specific Events"
​

Currently comparing:

Seat Right Hand side:
New LFE installation/position giving more direct impact to the rear of the seat and only a single TST429 towards the front of the seat.

Seat Left Hand Side:
The previously shown LFE installation below the seat with TST 429 & TST 239 (as in diagrams above)

New LFE installation gives more direct punch but will test/compare both in Simvibe soon to see what I prefer.

 

[Mr Latte]

So it begins....

 

[Mr Latte]

Thread is almost a year old now, what is happening your end @RW65 surely you must be at a point to start doing something?



While I am eager to get the PC built in the near future and make a start on Simvibe I will be dismantling my build soon...

Making plans for starting build 2.0 of my rig, okay yes it works well but I know I can improve it. Recent tests with Dual LFE on the seat have encouraged a re-think on my tubing/frame for the seat section. Also I am losing too much energy from the front TST as I can feel the power of the 429 going down through the seat tubing, along the parallel bars into the pedals.

This is too much energy going somewhere it does not need to go. Due to the current installation some of the energy is not passing through the main seat/rail component that I want it to go into so energy from this unit is being lost.

Improvements can be made to increase the maintained tactile energy and that it needs to pass through the main connection point that is important before it can potentially leak down through the seat uprights. This is currently not the situation as energy can escape down the seat upright tubing before it reaches the main connection point of the seat.

The dual Uprights below are the offenders, TST position of installation has to change.



Already have a plan in how to do the rather time consuming changes to be made to the tubing/brackets. Changing how they are used to gain more efficiency into the seat. Also simplifying the seat section construction and with using less brackets than currently doing. The TST 429 units at the front will now be repositioned directly under the seat with this update. It is a case of employing a smarter construction for the seat support and also going for a tidier and more compact install too.

 

[RW65]

Hey ML, yes the time has simply flown by... quite scary really!

My apologies for being MIA lately... thanks for your updates in regards to your build... am following with much interest.

Unfortunately, things are little slow at my end... saving funds at a slower rate than I had initially planned plus a few big one-off financial hits have me against the ropes & on the back foot... I'm afraid not much is going to happen in regards to my build for the rest of this year... hoping 2017 will have me back on track.

Cheers

 

[Mr Latte]

Gutted to hear this...

Dude you know my financial situation is a tough one too and has been a challenge to try and get a PC and the hardware I need to do the tests. I am pushing gradually to make slow but general progress and much of this thanks to @asteroulis for his motivation and help.

If you have amps already perhaps you need to stop doing what I done in the past with buy/hoarding stuff for your one day ideal setup yet have some suitable gear and not using it. Sell one of the amps or something you have that is not being used currently and get a tactile unit or two. At least this way you can get to enjoy it, perhaps not as fully intended but at least it is a start.

I had been looking forward to be doing tests with yourself and sharing/feedback on findings.
Do hope you battle on, keep your chin up and dig down into that Aussie grit.

 

[RW65]

Thanks ML, appreciate your words... I'll pull through, albeit a little later than expected 👍

Cheers

 

[Mr Latte]

Thread has been interesting but it has had more than enough discussion, theory and ideas.
Not really much more can be discussed without something happening on your end RW. Like I stated before the thread was never really one for me to show my own plans but I appreciate people that helped persuade me to start and do something with all the stuff I had sitting around.

Has been fun pondering ideas and with maybe more waffling then any thread ever has had...

I feel time is already overdue for these things to start being put into practice and for results from such to be considered and determining how to get the best out of Simvibe or what the best tactile configurations may be.

So much to do and so much to discover...

 

[Mr Latte]

* Reference to previous ipad solutions for monitoring etc that I posted here.

Just to clarify that with continued research I discovered these options will indeed enable monitoring but only enable 2 channel stereo recording and not multichannel support. Also take note that many USB audio interface units that can even have multiple inputs but when connected to a PC/Mac DAW they still will again only allow recording in 2 channels at a time.

My own intention primarily is being able to record and analyse "Chassis Mode" so at least 4 channels at once but I have now obtained the hardware to allow 8 channels to be monitored/recorded at once with I believe under 2 milliseconds latency in 24bit audio resolution if desired.

The reason for this is to be able to record and compare effects over a lap on a track and visually see from the Simvibe audio within a DAW how/what it is doing for each channel. This will provide additional understanding of how different effects are utilised depending on the sim/track/car used. It will also highlight how different settings used within Simvibe vary in how the effect itself is changed. All of this is in hope to get more understanding and then share such with the community, possibly even doing an updated more in-depth and long overdue guide for Simvibe.

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I would ask in hope some people respond to the next question if I am about to soon start using Simvibe and go about doing what I have suggested for so long.

• What would be a suitable car track combination (possibly SPA?) that is on various sim titles and could also allow if people wanted to see how Simvibe compares from one sim to another. This may not be that important but is something I considered also looking into.

Please understand to start doing testing, it would be appreciated having to start from nothing to be recommended either cars/tracks or a specific sim that longerm users of Simvibe can recommend as a good basis to use. In fact any tips would be welcomed.

I have not specifically seen much discussion on this anywhere or I wouldn't ask.
Yet if people read this and don't bother commenting or sharing to try and give me help or useful pointers then really what is the motivation for me putting so much effort into a new thread myself to share any worthwhile findings during upcoming testing.

Part of me thinks I may as well just mess around with things to suit my own cockpit in private at my leisure rather than openly want to discuss findings from such analysis and share or discuss them with others. I can only assume with the views this thread gets, some people have an interest in what has been discussed for quite so long, even though Simvibe itself as discussion in many forums seems to be rather in the background now generally very quiet in places I have looked.

Really going forward I will leave it upto the people here reading this to help me decide what to do in the near future but either way no offence meant or to be taken to anyone and thanks to those that followed this thread for so long.

Wish you well @RW65 too if indeed you decide to hold off or postpone your tactile beginnings until you have everything you want/need in place.

 

[RW65]

OK ML,

to kick things off & with me living Down Under in this beautiful Country, my first car & track combination are the Holden (or Ford) V8 Supercar at Bathurst, Mt Panorama...

Cheers

 

[Mr Latte]

Noooooo,

I was looking recommendations or reference to cars/tracks that are KNOWN to produce good or lively tactile effects. Not just a combination someone likes to drive or have tested, lol.

I don't visit i-racing forums so don't know if discussion of such takes place but can't find other forums stating any specific combinations that feel really good with decent settings applied.

Really just trying to avoid having to go through several things myself to find a combination that would be good for the tests and take on-board any tips in general someone perhaps wanted to offer. Although with the past record of responses in this thread lets say I'm not holding out for much happening.

----------

From what you have stated in PM and this thread after almost a year. Being that you still have not even bought or tried a single tactile unit yourself and seemingly no urgency to get some. Come on, is time to call it a day and I think 10 pages of my repeated drivel or trying to share my own ideas while waiting on you sharing something of your own build and nothing happening is plenty to go on for now. As expressed before I did this with my last build, changing ideas and wanting new things, then more new ideas and really going around in circles so once is enough for me than to watch you now do the same.

My personal advice is look at @HoiHman thread see how he started but he built it up and got to enjoy it gradually progressing not changing his mind and putting things off and then never really getting started.

 

[asteroulis]

Today I came up to a really interesting find : Voicemeeter banana (Donateware)

It is an equalizer like Equalizer APO (freeware)

I have experimented with the later a bit and while very promising it seemed a bit overcomplicated and with not so much documentation.
I have not tested the Voicemeeter Banana , but it seems much more easy to setup , well documented and with more abilities.
It would be interesting to mix some audio tactile to your simvibe channel outputs as well.

What I am willing to try in the future is to finally record a video where I will be able to mix/change channels of simvibe and audio. It should be able to be a great demo for tactile posibilities for people that do not use simvibe.

 

[Mr Latte]

Looks kinda neat and perhaps worth trying, think I came across videos of this on Youtube during research.
Simvibe with audio engine via a centre channel might be a good combo but not so sure its good to try and mix both on the same tactile.

It might work better from the perspective of doing the "game audio engine" on individual tactile or subs like an extension. I plan to trial this type of combo with my subs as previously mentioned. Comparing the subs with just Simvibe output as my 3rd device to using the subs with game audio. I feel before testing the immersion with 4 audio subs as to 4 tactile subs would be better but only testing will determine such preference.


Nice to see you still searching and sharing stuff..
Look forward to your findings.

Also a nice app for quickly selecting output devices is "Audio Switch" less awkward than right clicking audio devices from the system tray. It even offers customisation and hotkeys

 

[insert coin]

I'm using Voicemeeter Banana with Flight Simulator X: feeling the rumble of the airplane engine through the bass shakers adds so much to the experience, it's great! Voicemeeter Banana has an EQ, so I cut off all high frequencies completely (only let 0 - 180 Hz pass through). It's useful for every game that isn't supported by SimVibe.

 

[Mr Latte]

Always had good hardware EQ so never really needed this but could be ideal for many people.

Also think is a good idea to use the tone generator website for testing individual tones.
For example @insert coin try a test between 100-180Hz for 20 seconds to see what you feel.

 

[insert coin]

Yes, I tried a tone generator. Found out my shakers have a peak in volume at 43 Hz, so I dialed that down.

 

[Mr Latte]

Mr query is what you feel above 100 and upto the 180Hz.
How much do you feel or how would you rate it regards what it does or adds with your own units/cockpit for immersion.

 

[insert coin]

I will let you know in the next days.

 

[insert coin]

I did some tests with this online tone generator: I can feel the tones from about 22 to 140 Hz. Above it quickly dimishes: I can hear the tone, but I cannot feel it anymore. As said before: a peak in volume at 43 Hz.
Equipment: analog 5.1 surround receiver (20 - 20.000 Hz) with SinusLive Bass Pump III shakers. I guess I can feel the higher range of frequencies well because the bass shakers are relatively tiny. The shakers are mounted on a wooden platform (isolated with rubber feet from the floor) onto which I place my chair (no racing seat...).
Please note I cheat a bit: since the Bass Pump III shakers drop off quickly below 35 Hz I upped 25 to 35 Hz with the EQ to extend the lower frequency range.

I also have a SinusLive Big Bass Pump which goes down to 15 Hz (peak at 32 Hz), but it is not good at doing high frequencies. It is in use for shift, collision and big bump effects. The Bass Pump IIIs are in use for the other effects like engine RPM.

 

[Mr Latte]

On my own test build and with the Clark TST 429 I can feel down to @7-8Hz (specs claim 5Hz) and can feel into @150Hz but it begins to transition more into audible sound than actual tactile. I still personally don't think over the 100Hz offers much to the immersion in feeling at all. Do accept that this may vary with peoples own tactile/cockpits and preferences all being different, though I doubt I will go over it for tone generated effects.

Soon enough I will discover what frequencies textures use but I expect they could be up in this region any-ways.

You or others may like or feel frequencies above 100Hz more than I do. Even perhaps see them as greater benefit than I do although with this little test you can see why I queried your mention of using upto 180Hz earlier.

It is good that you have found how your tactile responds at different frequencies, this is imho one of the biggest flaws with Simvibe that it does not offer a test-tone generator to easily let users learn how different frequencies feel or how to perhaps learn to utilise or tweak frequencies that can improve the effects Simvibe will be producing.