Mr Latte - Question?

[RW65]

Hi Guys, both welcome & thanks for the new input being created in this thread, especially to you HoiHman. Like Mr Latte, I have enjoyed many of your previous posts on other threads & eagerly look forward to your future thinking methodology & commentary. Thanks, PetroVit78, for ‘chiming in’ with questions of your own – good stuff - which no doubt will help me also. All the very best with your build & experimentation, I look forward to hearing more.

A considerable amount of my own thinking has gone into my DIY project in regards to the vibrational conflicts that will occur by running both chassis & extension modes, employing eight tactile units (TU’s). As I have not yet experienced my “first-time-feel” with tactile feedback, I’d like to state here, once again, how indebted I am to all you, for your continual interest & support - your sharing of experiences will no doubt save me considerable anguish with my own build.

I have a few ideas I’d like to share with you below, but firstly;

HoiHman, in a previous post I briefly mentioned my reasoning for not selecting a partial or full-motion cockpit. Although I still openly support my thinking over motion versus non-motion, I must take fault that I neglected to mention the GS-4 racing seat, invented by Pat Dotson. This is a remarkable product & one of my future upgrade possibilities. I’m also interested in hearing how you go with HE pedals, which have made my short-list.

SLOTTING

Now, back to my thinking on TU (tactile unit) vibrational mixing or bleeding. I propose applying a router & creating slots – or slotting – to my wooden chassis floor. Perhaps I should provide an example.

Imagine if you will a square wooden board 900mm x 900mm (36 x 36 inches). By taking a pencil & drawing a straight diagonal line from corner to corner, we divide the board into two pieces. Then, starting & finishing 25mm (1 inch) from the boards’ corners, with router, we machine a slot along this drawn line.

Next, by mounting a TU in the centre of each divided board & applying both equal effects & singular force (such as a gear shift) to each TU, we achieve a different shape or form with this directional flow or tactile throb… originally an “even spread” of tactile vibration over the entire board resulted, but now, a pathway exists for this directional flow, towards each of the two corners. I assume that this vibrational force wishes to occupy all available “ground” until this singular wave force has run its race or is out of breath. Note that both directional flows from each TU will eventually mix, albeit quite differently with this illustration.

Obviously, this is but an example to introduce the concept & would not work for above, as the force of the TU’s would possibly break the board in two. But, with some further investigation, literally dozens of slotting prototype designs can be plotted to a wooden chassis floor – but obviously not ALL applied at the same time as the chassis floor would both resemble & have integrity of Swiss cheese.

The benefits of slotting, to my thinking, are threefold, although I do stress that this theory will probably NOT terminate the TU mixing absolutely, but can possibly help reduce this perplexing challenge. Here are the benefits;

One; help reduce an “even-spread” intercourse of two TU’s in close proximity.

Two; same as above, but by adding additional slotting in the same area, help reduce this “even-spread” further. Consider the “maze” effect – a significant serving of these vibrations can now be focused around or thru the slotted “maze” to eventually dissipate, perhaps without ever coming into contact with vibration from another TU? The vibrations that do mix will now be reduced in power or force, quantity & number.

Three; help “direct, mould or channel” the TU vibrational effect(s) to a particular desired location, such as pedals & seat mounting contact points.

Furthermore to this concept of slotting, I expect to have my race seat raised above the chassis floor with four wooden boards in a square configuration, with rubber isolation material to help separate effects further… dozens of combos have come to mind but nothing concrete yet. With six TU’s mounted in various locations on the chassis floor, I can help direct the flow of vibrations to each specific location or board; hence the unavoidable vibrational mix will occur in closer proximity to the race seat mounting points, rather than mixing on the chassis floor. If the vibrations were mixed on the chassis floor, this vibrational jumble would need to travel a further distance before reaching the seat’s mounting points. I am just speculating here, guys, hear me out.

If one were to think this through carefully, as I deduce you guys have already done so, if we now collect ALL of the vibrations that are directed solely to our race seat – to be resolved in the seat of our pants, if you like – ALL of these vibrations will be mixed to some degree before they actually hit our pleasure centre - perhaps I should re-phrase this - in other words, would not the best result achieved be this – an unavoidable vibrational mixing effect to occur as LATE as possible?

Your thoughts & disqualifications are most welcome.

Mr Latte,

Thanks for your commentary, photos & link, very interesting – especially so over the last few days, great stuff! Absolutely love what you’ve done with your seat - what a sweet ride you now have & the photos look awesome in B&W. I eagerly await your feedback when you have yourself firmly established. Please notify me in advance in regards to your IPO (Initial Public Offering) when listing on the FTSE

Also, regarding my previous post – my copy & pasting of published specifications for “Peak Tactile Force or the Big Hits” measured in pounds-foot (lbs – ft) in regards to the differences of LFE versus T429 Platinum, generously compiled by Jerry at the Bass Shaker Site… Mr Latte, your words, “Power Misrepresentation Example”.

Yes, I couldn’t agree with you more that published numbers can be misleading. I must admit that it raised my eyebrow too, even though I’m just an audiophile newbie. So, what do I know? Not very much… I’m still struggling to clearly discern what both frequency & hertz (Hz) mean… specifically when it comes to the differences between Hz, Hz no more, Hz ever so slightly & Hz so good.

Rest assured, Mr Latte, we are both reading from the same page in regards to these matters. Yes, from my research, I totally agree with you in regards to the LFE packing a greater punch than the T429… so much so, I plan to install three of these bad-boy monstrosities.

Thanks for your help regarding the INPUTS. How about the OUTPUTS? Are the sockets or ports of the LFE & T429 alike or do I require a different type of connector? Is there “one easy solution” in regards to buying a speaker wire with a connecter at each end, to connect the iNuke to T429/LFE?

Thanking you in advance.

Sorry gentlemen, I promise to keep my future posts shorter, as attention spans do differ widely. If you managed to reach this point in my post without rolling your eyes & screaming obscenities at your monitor or mobile device, I congratulate & thank you.

Cheers.

 

[Mr Latte]

Goodthing you kept the cobra seat.

It looks really awesome and it will probably drill the fillings out of your teeth. LOL

Thanks..
Seat was something I didn't want to let go but came close to selling it to Mark, after using it again with this newest build discovered it's too nice

The shape is a bit more hugging on the sides and outer thighs than the very popular RECARO models often found in Audi RS /ASTRA VXR / FOCUS RS and others. Although it is a tad harder.

NEW FRAME
I'm looking to get more done in the next week to complete both sides and wanting the back tubing to move in conjunction with the recline feature, so needs a bit of thought. Rear Channels will flow better into the rear of the seat this way than relying on them going through the recline components. I want the option to use a separate T329 unit on the back to test compare against. Also I'm not so sure that directionality will be as detectable so will the seat be better with dual T429 with LFE on the sides to really bolster front stereo transitions.

SUPER SHAKE
I know your jesting but part of the beauty with Clark tactile is they don't have to be that loud to feel them. If anything I'm relying on this new application in applying the tactile direct to set positions to be more effective with lower amplification possibly needed.

Yes the dual LFE may be overkill but I've discovered in my case a single one below the seat for low effects while adding to that role very much actually took away from the L/R directional sensation. It dispersed through the seat base and overpowered the L/R. You may feel this to some extent with your Advance unit.

My solution of independent units working in tandem with the L/R with the new points of direct contact for the sides will be a new experience to report on. If its not a success then a new approach may be needed...

Henk, I REALLY want to nail this directional tactile issue/problem and need to start talking with others like yourself with experience in Simvibe. I wish you would join in the experimentation, perhaps considering a new build with 80/20.

Simvibe Question:
Do the front wheels feel more active than the rear wheels regarding Chassis Channels?
How active are the rear channels and do then feel more like mono or proper stereo?
Have you tried the new BRAKE LOCK feature?

 

[Mr Latte]

RW65, hello again curious and was wondering where abouts you live in AUS?

BK LFE use spring clips (YUK)
Clarke like the Buttkicker Mini LFE are just flex cable...
When are you expecting to be receiving hardware?


I wish we could get more guys involved with actual Simvibe experience to help you and to give more of their own experiences, findings and shortfalls.


You seem stuck on using wood? Have you not considered the cockpit builders favourite? I think metal 80/20 would be a better solution for your build than wood but possibly consider wood more for deck/base.

http://www.8020.com.au/


Reading your ideas, although hard to get proper impression.
I too spent a long time with various drawings, thoughts and ways to apply multiple effects with different considerations. Over months and making updated decisions. They became more and more technical rather than practical.

I've discovered through all this and I say this not to discourage you but to help direct you. It's perhaps best to "simplify something complicated" than "complicate something simple"


Small Ideas - Big Ideas - Smarter Ideas
Have had similar ideas to channelling at one time with idea to use multiple tiers with different effects/channels on the various isolated platforms all going to the seat. Really though it gets to the point of overbuilding, adding cost and effort to the whole thing as well. In basic terms we have two main areas of body contact to infiltrate.

Seat & Pedal Sections
Regardless how many effects or platforms are kept independent the tactile will all become unified at the end into the Seat/Pedals destination. So directionality or points of contact need to be maintained/incorporated best as possible in the end destination. Ah but what happens when all these get muddled into one destination, how do you still sense their individuality? This is part of the issue to tackle.

The seat may be more of a problem here because a user may be trying to get 4-way directional "Chassis" effects into a small area and still be able to differentiate each. I am taking the decision to highlight the sides of my seat for front stereo, and while adding rear tactile also I am utilising it to effect the back of the seat more for my spine/sides. Doing this as it is more effective than relying on butt cheeks to determine rear L/R and its using a separate body part for clearer separation from thighs that the mind will register better too..

Adding the Clarke direct to the sides and back rather than through the seats subframe will enhance the detail. I know this from past installs. Common issue is that the low end effects will mix/overpower the finer detail if using all through the seats base. So I do believe what I am trying will be in the direction of sorting this problem with of course some additional tweaking.

It goes back to what I was doing at the start, concentrating on close proximity direct installation. Difference now being better experience with different tactile units, understanding them better and just addressing the issue of installation more effectively.

The Timing Issue MS (4 Corners)
Tactile that are close proximity with shorter distance/area will be more effective, lose less momentum through dispersion and minimise the "Milliseconds" in delay/transfer timing from the device to end installation. Personally I have dropped the idea I too had in past of 4 corner units on a platform, although previously with LFE.

In fairness it is Butt-kickers that are more prone to slight delay utilising their moving piston than to Clark units. (*Mechanical delay for unit to produce effect - Physical delay for effect to be transferred to destination)

In this regard using 4x corner tactile in positions to represent wheels although seems logical may to some degree be flawed. I would say to certainly do self tests but maybe re-evaluate and concentrate more on the body parts as the key to better end result.

Is it not the end result to get the effect/channel to the body area effectively? Also how it receives it rather than tactile installed potentially where the effect is on a car? We are essentially trying to create the immersion experience, not necessarily the floor-plan of a vehicle?


Feel Em Frequencies
Hz is basically the frequencies, a range 20Hz-20Khz for childs hearing is typical, reducing with age, lol. Tactile is audio/notes/octaves as felt frequencies rather than just being audible sounds. See wiki for more indepth...

1 With More Vs More With Less
Personally I believe a single platform with one transducer supplying 2-4 effects works less effective than 2-4 tactile with single or dual effects. Why, well the tactile unit itself has less to handle, is not losing tactile response from multiple effects sharing the same frequencies. The user has more control of not only each effect but the installation position/placement can now be split/varied across the seat.

So would the possible end result being, you remove the hotspot/impact area of a single unit with HIGHER volume to spread the effect and (at more cost yes) create more points of contact with additional tactile to disperse the effect more evenly and possibly at LOWER volume.

I am curious how many effects Simvibe users typically use on a channel before they feel performance is being compromised? Anyone?


Common Viewpoint THATS OVERKILL
Looking at above idea. YES multiple tactile installations can often be seen as OTT and replicating a rocket chair or body shaking mess. Mr Latte and his insane vibrating massage cockpit has often been a joke point.

It can indeed be such but hold on, is it also possible to be overlooking the different approach that I recommend to be taken here?

This being that in such an installation more is not just necessarily more of the same, no but more control, effectiveness and precision.

Let me point out again that if using tactile in set roles with individual, installation points, set frequencies and amplification for performance benefits it is the way to go. Of course just my experience/opinion.

The issue can then be how to get multiple units to work on a restricted area like a seat.
A metal frame for me that is maintaining tactile separation/isolation just makes sense to use as an installation point for the tactile and branch off it to the seats various regions.

Clark may also be better for finer detail over Mini LFE but of course it's part personal pref.

The T429 that your so keen on as example will maintain more detail and produce low end performance over it's little brothers (yes at a high cost). It can however let you achieve a high performance with low end depth tactile with easy installation and do so feeling smoother than a piston based shaker like say the Advance or Pearl units. Also for me any-ways their audible sound adds to the effect.

So is tactile on a metal frame connected to the seat worth considering?
I hope to add more answers and detail to this question in the coming weeks.

Highlighting REASONS!

Side & Thighs

Underside Thighs Knees

Back Of Seat Rear Buttocks / Cushion

Back & Spine / Rear Seat

Example: (Temp build not final)

• Maximising L/R side effects
• Adjustable arm positions possible.
• Direct contact to the relevant body part
• Utilising controlled frequencies via PEQ
• Incorporated with other units for shared/combined role
• Independent power/wattage in concert to other channels

This is my own best solution thus far and I think it will be effective but that's the beauty of inspiration and trying to do something different. Others may achieve their own preferred ideas/designs so hope it at least inspires.


Look forward to you having hardware to we share thoughts on tests/builds and experiences rather than just designs and theories.

LONGEST POSTS EVER THREAD.
Not much more I can add before going around in circles but certainly glad to help, even if it tends to bore the life out of everyone.

Hopefully Hoiman or others will get the bug to build a GS4 Mega Seat combining motion and going a similar path in upgrading his tactile. I know he loves a challenge too ...

 

[HoiHman]

You're making great progress mate 👍

I love the idea of the arms connection to the seat. I think they will be the basis for great tacitile feedback.
It's a very challenging idea to incoperate so much direction feedback in such a small area. Doesn't matter what everybody else thinks, it only matters how the resul feels to you.

The feedback of the 4 mini-LFE's and the BK-advance on my GS-4 is sufficient for now.
Add to that the 2 mini LFE's at the pedals and one at the shifter. That's a total of 8 ButtKickes in about one square meter of surface. I understand that i might not be enough for you, but it's much more than most have. Offcours you're a special case

Concerning the RPM effect i found out even though, I have equalisers and various settings in SC4, some cars work MUCH better than others.

I might consider replacing the 2 (rpm) mini LFE's with Clarke transducers, but that's all for the near future.
Motion didn't work out for me. The pedalstand for the HE-pros is finished and they are awesome.

Next big upgrade will probably be the Oculus Rift

 

[Mr Latte]

Cheers....
Be nice to see your next updates...

Will get to do more building next week...
Have a fault with one of my inuke needing repair. Out of warranty so gonna cost approx £80 to have returned fixed.

Yes splitting channels certainly adds to the number of units. Your doing fine on numbers but did I ever recommend LFE is a must have.

Do me a list / layout of your configuration and effects. I've read that yes some cars or games give better results than others. Wot about the different settings active for idle or RPM trigger?

Some Work Much Better?

Are you saying you can't even with EQ and SC4 settings achieve the same result for some cars or that it needs increased db values to achieve similar level of output as the GOOD cars?

It just may be down to SC4 factors or some cars telemetry values not working so well with Simvibes algorithms. Perhaps little can be done with certain cars to improve them?

This wouldn't stop me in looking for a solution though. Yet even inuke dsp cant do much to the Hz output if the engine revs effect itself created from Simvibe (source) is limited in low frequencies detail

Hey Mr DJ - Experiment?
For such cars if engine tactile is the issue?
A simple STEREO MIXER for RCA inputs could be concocted to combine the SC4 "Engine extension" with "Game Audio".

Using "Centre" or "Stereo" audio channels. Use the mixer to adjust the % for more of one or the other in the mix.

This NEW MIX goes into EQ control -amplification - tactile unit.

Worth a try my friend, not sure if timing differences in sources would conflict though?

 

[Carson79]

Offcours you're a special case

I concur Henk!

 

[Mr Latte]

Damn ganging up on me....

 

[HoiHman]

Maybe a LFE in the future, who knows.

I alreay listed my tactile set up before, it looks like this

4 Mini LFE's = 2 back of the GS-4 and 2 at the pedals : Chassis mode (roadbumps, suspensionbumps, roadtexture and speedbased white noise, small impacts)
1 BK Advance = Bottom of the GS-4 : Extension mode (dedicated to big impacts only, set with high false clue elimination)
2 Mini LFE's = High at the back of the GS4 : Extension mode (dedicated to RPM and Gearshift only)
1 Mini LFE = Shifter : Extension mode (dedicated to RPM and Gearshift only)

I can controle each zone by hand while driving because the equalizer and amps are within hands reach

For the RPM effects i always use a Simcommander modifier which amplifies the volume of the RPM when the RPM goes up. Realy nice, it prevents the BK from bottoming out when the car idles.

All cars give good to reasonable tactile RPM, but some cars just shine with this effect. No matter how i tune, i just think their data output is the basis for better RPM based tactile.

I'm not interested in audio tactile any more, too much hassle to set it up. Simvibe simply rocks and has so much options. If with all the options in SC4 and the EQ the tactile isn't good enough, than i guess it wasn't ment to be.

There a only very few cars with poor RPM tactile, most are pretty good, but some are just simply awesome right out of the box. The problem with RPM tactile is that if applied wrong it can easily override all other simvibe effects if they are applied to the same zone. That why i have the RPM zone at the back of the seat, so it doesn't interfer with the chassis effects. I often use the volume knob on the amp to balance the various effects on fly, especially after switching cars.

I will be following you build with great interest, keep to those updates comming.......

 

[Mr Latte]

Thanks for doing that and providing more details...
Interesting configuration with the effects.

See you didn't mention engine revs for the pedals?
Just wondering if that's the way you prefer it, like perhaps it overpowering the other chassis effects as you alluded to?


I can see the method behind doing set effects for individual units and it is easily done through Simvibe.


This has got me pondering things with this current layout I am planning.
You do raise a concern though, of constant effects like "engine revs" possibly interfering with the directional effects/cues from "chassis".

The method I am proposing of using the LFE/T429 combo splitting the frequency range would have frequencies of both "engine/chassis" effects combined to both units. The difference being the roles of the dual LFE to highlight the directional L/R placement of bumps etc.

In theory I see an issue potentially only when lower Hz "engine revs" might interfere with the directional effects. It depends how well the T429 can handle "Engine & Chassis" frequencies.


Very Different / Specific Roles / Specific Frequency Ranges
If I were to replicate the effects your using into my layout for the seat it would fit well. Your seat being all metal though will have its own characteristics.
The main difference in layout being front chassis also in the seat, dual (big impacts) and a single T329 Gold replacing your "back/high" twin Mini LFE. I would expect it to work rather amazingly however.

On the other hand, doing that relies on the sole performance and limitation of a single tactile unit in the role it is given. So me opting to using the different tactile units for individual benefits in slam/detail frequencies they can produce is a different approach. Also I kinda feel it would be a big loss to have dual LFE solely for only big impacts. They add too much richness/realism to low "engine revs". It would be easy to add these in with the low impact effects however.

So two approaches using the same hardware, the same effects but in a different way.
Would be an interesting test to compare each. Yet with "Game Audio" a requirement I need for my enjoyment of consoles and music these also favour the layout I am planning with the dual units per channel.

 

[PetroVit78]

Hello everyone!

To Op, thank you for being a good sport and letting me chime in here in your post. Though, considering the lengths of the posts in this thread and the amount of questions in these posts I think I`ll bring my buisiness so to speak, over to the general tactile discussion. Or else my questions here only will serve as a badly setup simvibe effect and create blending!! Ohhh, tactile funnies!

Btw, Latte, you asked me some questions about doing some experiments. I didn`t quite understand the nature of this experiement, but I`ll bring that forth in the other thread.

 

[RW65]

RDOK… many questions & answer strapped… I plan to address them in future posts + update my GTP profile “born on the Isle of Wight”

Another great post Mt Latte, encouraging & inspirational. The amount of information the sum of your posts has provided me is greatly appreciated. I have spent countless hours over the past couple of weeks throwing an enormous number of potential re-configurations at my original build, both the chassis but more importantly, how the TU (tactile units) will interact with my physical body. I believe the answer lies in building the chassis/cockpit “around” the TU… the same route I am taking with the wheel & pedals.

Thanks for answering my question on outputs & thanks for the frequency & hertz clarification… obviously, the mighty Wiki crushes the silly exploits of Goofy most days, but I haven’t yet seen the replay & Daffy has lodged a protest… & thanks again for your interest in reading this post.

I am 9 months shy from building my sim-chassis; I straddle an interesting advantage here because my imagination has gone beastly from where I first began… I am holding in mind, a holographic image of what it (she) would look like. Can I share this with you?

OK, this is what she looks like… ten days ago. Boring, boring & boring, perhaps post later… so let’s go to the interesting stuff, where is my imagination now?

In the interests of keeping this post short, I shall be blunt with my words, so I hope they translate clearly?

Toes-Heel-Soul

Hung throttle pedal, fabricated metal isolation box, same as LHS, each pedal T429 deployed. The T429’s have adequate isolation from the heels, which are closely guarded by kissing LFE’s front & back, chassis floor mounted. The LFE’s have adequate isolation from the T429’s (toes) & each T429 has absolute isolation from the other.

The Seat

My Seat isolation imagery is still under consideration, but developing nicely. I may also add an additional tactile experience… motion.

The Emotion of Motion

Weight transfer not electronic, pitch seat forward & back, roll side to side… nothing to rich… just a couple of fingers off horizontal should do fine. I hope to post more…

Share your thoughts?

Cheers

Update… my thoughts today… scrapped again, for the third time this week! This motion thingy is definitely achievable & would be nice, but just adds so much more complication, even though the design remains simple. My major concern is the seat flying backwards when applying the brake … I have a few ideas in combatting this but I still need to take into consideration the seats’ 4 x TU… not much space to work with.

Still, I haven’t shopped seats yet… perhaps a solution will present itself?

 

[Mr Latte]

Hello again...

I went through so many ideas in the past as well.

Weight based motion is something I have looked at too but hold with some reserve as I am not sure if I will like it or not. Will show you photos below of how I had planned to incorporate pitch/roll into the seat and pedals.

I have seen builds in the past with canvas type springs, mountain bike shocks and even moped springs...

DoDodge over at ISR has a rather unique build with 4x LFE and using the same type of industrial/isolation springs. I am not fully convinced with the idea of using tactile in this respect for potential suspension motion. Well perhaps the accuracy is questionable and while it is interesting seems most of the tactile oomph goes into the shocks.

Although it does demonstrate the power in these LFE units and he sure has got some entertaining tactile going on with lots of good sim gear and motion seat...

Certainly different...

 

[Mr Latte]

Hope you don't mind me sharing but just to possibly give you some ideas or inspiration...
I personally work better with getting inspiration from a physical build in progress rather than pre designed sketches/plans.

My own build is going slowly, just haven't got the finances to do what I want in a big swoop.
I have limited components so have been doing test builds of ideas and designs then dismantling and doing another section. At the same time I am trying to utilise past purchases on the old build as best possible.

So my chassis frame will utilise 2 main sections of double parallel bars @ 7FT long. The full length of the cockpit. As in the seat itself the seat and pedals maintain individual L/R tactile as best possible. These will be supported from the floor with the industrial springs, which are mounted to a wooden shelf between the top and bottom tubing.

The seat section has 4x uprights per corner. Each quadrant will connect to the top of a metal plate that is supported by a Clark Synthesis TI-300 Neoprene isolator. The isolator has a few degree of possible movement to enable the seat to have motion. Each of these are bolted to the wooden shelf within the parallel tubing.

It all sounds confusing but it is rather simple...
The solution is different though and I look forward to building it complete to test soon.

Test Build: Chassis
Just to get a perception of 1 set of parallel bars. L/R will have their own 7ft sections. Industrial shocks support each from the floor with L/R front and back (4) "balancing platforms" for connecting the seat and its tactile.

Underside of seat upright quadrants:

Side view and visual idea of components (spring position will differ)

1 of 4 metal plates (FR / FL / RR / RL) supported on Ti-300 isolator

Isolator clearance allows plate to pitch/roll and parallel bars also help prevent any coping.

The positioning of the industrial springs will be made to support the seat/pedal sections not directly below the Ti-300 isolators as shown in some photos. The pedal section is planned to have a similar mounting solution.

Seat support plate (1 of 4) with 4 uprights connecting to each quadrant of the seat.

(DVD case lol) represents a solid wooden shelf that is bolted central between the bars. It acts as the support for the industrial spring to the floor and also the support to bolt the isolator & plate for the seat together.

I am running with the intention that if I don't like the "weight based motion" then the Ti300 plate sections can be excluded and connect the seat uprights direct to the L/R parallel bars using only the industrial springs for supporting the chassis.

 

[RW65]

Very cool, Mr Latte, aesthetically, she’s looking very cool…

Daffy says that with a set of wheels & favourable winds she’d blow Mad Max from one end of Thunderdome to the other…

Fabulous stuff, I am sincerely impressed with your current build & your design for motion, but as you specify, the motion can easily be removed if not required.

I am slightly embarrassed by revealing my considered $35 motion setup, but here it is for laughs. I was thinking of sandwiching four golf balls between two boards & mounting them below the seat.

By trial & error I would locate a “sweet spot” (say, 3 x 5 inches) for the golf balls in a rectangle formation. I could provide many more details towards this structure (including a split setup with 8 x balls / 3 x boards) but I think it unnecessary as I have scrapped the idea completely. My design will be built “rock solid” as possible.

Besides, I intend mounting an isolated LFE for direct contact to the seats “bottom” & will have little space available. Also, I am thinking of mounting an isolated T429 for direct contact with the seats back for tactile to lower back & shoulders & also mount 2 x T429 (chassis mode, isolated from each other) directly to the seats mounting rails.

I have a few more ideas that have yet to be fleshed out, but if interested, will update in future posts.

Very much in mind at the minute is running 8 x TU in chassis & extensions mode. What will be my primary & one-off secondary effects? Only once these effects have been finalised can I mount the TU in the appropriate location.

My build is slow going as I have some heavy financial commitments over the next few months but I hope to have both pedal & seat acquisitions by the end of the year. Once I have these components I can start building my chassis prototype. The TU’s will be purchased in 2016 along with the direct-drive steering system. A completion date is set for July / September 2016.

Yes, I agree with you Mr Latte, in regards to greater inspiration coming from a physical build in progress, however I have to start with ideas in mind to start the ball rolling. No doubt, when I finally start my physical prototype build, refinements & changes to my original planned ideas will be required… though expected, I am very much looking forward to this!

One of the short-falls I see in purchasing a fully built chassis/rig is that they have a tonne of adjustability for tall, short, thin, wide, light & heavy consumers. In my view, with adjustably comes weakness. The downside of owning a chassis/rig with absolute no adjustability is that wives, girlfriends & mates may not fit the chassis/rig profile. Are you planning any adjustability?

I am immensely absorbed with your current build to date, please continue posting your photos & commentary… wishing you favourable winds

Profile updated & cheers.

 

[Mr Latte]

Daffy says that with a set of wheels & favourable winds she’d blow Mad Max from one end of Thunderdome to the other…

Luv it....

"Shake rattle n roll"
I am concerned with the wooden floor and vibrations. Do have a couple of revised ideas for the base of the frame and potential with movement. The above may have had too much moving for my liking. Often I mess around with build ideas for additional motivation, such as that was. Have a simpler solution planned requiring less work/clamps but one that will provide much better stability and important isolation for the tactile from the floor.

Always liked the chrome tubing myself and surprised few builds seemed to of used it.
I have 13 of those Ti300 rubber isolators purchased for the old build so going to implement an isolation platform for the left/right sections using 6 on each side.

Have several items sold and some more to hopefully add/sell on ebay. Using this to help towards getting more parts and forward the build. Placed an order the other day, those triple clamps are now £17 a piece inc vat YIKES!
Anyways this will let me build the main sections and give you a photo update.


Adjustability
I can no longer use the seat slider as the tactile sections touching the seat will prevent this, recline isn't an issue though. Not going to use adaptability for the seat. For pedals and wheel I could implement movement and would do so with seat sliders that lock in place but not decided yet as really will only be myself using it.

Keep on with the ideas, if anything I do helps inspire you well glad to help.
Bit of advice don't seek "your ultimate" and moving goalposts. Start something when you can and work or build up towards your goal. This was my mistake in the past.

Their was a cockpit build on ISR that uses "tennis balls" in a rather ingenious way...

 

[RW65]

Yes, nice constructive advice as always… always welcome… plus two or more minds working towards the same goals with alternate strategies & thought processes help push the envelope further.

I propose with my build both fixed wheel & seat (no slide or recline) but with adjustable peddles to 5 inches. As my pedals (hanging, currently planned) will be mounted to separate fabricated steel “rigs” mounted to the chassis floor, I hope to still retain that rock-solid composure. The two T429’s will be mounted to wooden boards bolted to the top of the steel “rigs” so will remain stationary, regardless of pedal adjustability.

The chrome tubing does look sweet… I plan to utilise some tubing myself albeit the brushed alloy variety… for the rear of the seat to facilitate tactile & also as grab handles either side of the steering wheel to facilitate lard butt entry & exit.

Yes, I noticed the “tennis balls” also… this is what started me off on my short venture for weight transfer motion… though not suited to my current build, I am certain that there is some value here, in regards to “smaller rigs” not constrained by the need for such rock-solid construction & deploy carpet mounted pedals… only wish I had thought of this all those years ago when RBRing.

As a footnote, I plan to support my entire chassis floor on top of a solidly constructed wooden box, with removable panels & dedicated crawl space for cabling & maintenance… each board will have rubber isolation from each other… a “fabricated frame” for triple monitors, plus audio speakers will be mounted to this.

Hopefully I can pull this off?

GTP profile updated today. Cheers.

 

[Mr Latte]

Just a shame you are a bit off getting stuff done, id of loved a testing partner to share findings and ideas with.
I like reading about your ideas, seeing others creativity but also peoples general enthusiasm.

Their are a couple of guys I am trying to help via PM at the moment on the forums and hoping one in particular will help with some tests for Simvibe. Well I'd like to hear his feedback on combining an LFE with his Clarke tactile and see how we get on, if he is up for it.

I sold a LOT of bits on ebay, pedals/tactile/DSD stuff that I had for the old build this week.
Ordered more of the triple and double clamps I need however they are out of chrome finish. So I may opt to have them painted red or black. Always quite liked the Vision Racer / Aeon Sim styling with the chrome and red brackets.
Yeah I'm a fussy sod and want the look of it to be a bit flash. Black, chrome,red type theme may carry through, we will see.

Will be selling my unused TH8RS as I plan to dismantle the T500RS pedals and use only brake/throttle. So no need for shifter. Trying my best to maintain separation of L/R. This will also ensure each foot gets the max sensation of the L/R tactile. Current thought is still dual LFE for foot base/front of cockpit (low Hz) and hang the pedals from seperate structure with dual TST 239 for the detailed tactile to each pedal/toes. I have not seen a previous build look to put so much into tactile separation and do split tactile for heel n toes in pedals. It might work well then again it might not, test will see.

Gonna have to settle with my old T500RS as much as I have liked Fanatec in the past, really I cannot warrant as a casual player another @ £1200 for Fanatec V2 with V3 pedals and XB1 add on. So a TX 458 wheel will have to be purchased for FM6.

 

[RW65]

Fine words, Mr Latte, I also admire your spirit & enthusiasm… Yes, my life is different & so many months behind you… I wish this were different too.

If you were referring to mister dododge, then yes, I thought warmly of him, informed & generous… please keep me posted with future developments, your comments & insights are most welcome.

Yes, the red is good… a dash of red in my build also.

Clutch, Snatch, Grab, Grapple or Grip?

Are you throwing away your clutch pedal, Mr Latte?

…fabricated, fully isolated & dedicated foot-rest to provide the toes with all the LHS pedal tactile experiences in CM (Chassis Mode)… Interesting, I like it… something I neglected to consider with this build… the clutch pedal feels good but a dedicated foot-rest just does it better, good call, Mr Latte... I deduce isolated from chassis floor?

Yes, interesting times with the separation of left foot toes from right foot toes in CM… plus heels separation from toes in EM…

FM6… I like the TX 458… If I owned this wheel I’d own the T3PA-Pro & GT28 also… I understand the base can be purchased separately now, making this deal sweeter.

I hope to sketch my fabricated pedal rigs for your perusal & possible tweaks soon. I have pre-conceived plans for isolation but require some feedback… perhaps there are better ways?

Cheers

 

[Mr Latte]

Hello, not sure who bothers to follow this or if it is any interest/help to people other than yourself.

Some parts are due soon, have done some updates to the seat for small improvements too.
Looking forward to start playing around with ideas I have and attempting a couple of options for the pedal section.

Still not certain exactly which route to go with the industrial springs but fully confident a good solution will be found.
I have 5 of those and may get a 6th for 3 down each side of the main support. Lighting will also be a feature of my cockpit and have some hardware purchased, also due soon to test an idea I have had for sometime.

Working brake light feature is just one aspect of it (loved this in arcades) as a fun immersion factor nothing else.
The other idea is a surprise maybe for later but is something I have not seen incorporated before in anyone's build.

Recovering old ground here...
I am not considering PC gaming again any time soon so Simvibe isnt a factor at the moment.
However this is not stopping me building my own cockpit to be able to support it. Actually the opposite and If anything the build would make a spectacular cockpit for it.

 

[Mr Latte]

Bit annoyed as still waiting on those clamp/components to be delivered...

Did however make some revisions the other day to the seat, took ages to remove the underside I had and rebuild.

Will share with you some of the changes but of course this is still NOT final build....
Can test this when the clamps etc arrive and build the seat support section.


Slight mod at the front.

New / optimised rear effects for seat lumber and sides

Works with recline feature

Cockpit: Colour Me Pretty


Just to share an idea of ways to utilise lighting to have it feature as an ambiance enhancement for my build. I have tested cheap LED in the past but have since moved on to "Phillips Hue". These work great in conjunction with various apps and including "Phillips Ambilight Tvs.

Ambiance Examples:
A simple non active mode would be to use the selected cars bonnet colour if using an appropriate view.

Example: I played around with this in the past but just on a monitor stand not on actual cockpit build...

Simple Ambiance on Chrome do you like?
Lets get an idea:


Forza 6 Ford GT you say....

Ice

Red

For me I see that lighting can work wonders with the chrome and I will be looking to experiment soon in purchasing an Ambilight Tv (2015 model) to effectively be able to paint the L/R sides of the cockpit. Not just in static colour modes but with the colours from the games live action however not just in lighting up a back wall for the TV but the length of the cockpit.

One feature is to enhance passing trees/cars/rumble strips (depends on games view used)
Consider it a bit like adding two outer screens like triple screens but they are light based.

See here for example but the idea is to magnify the effect with additional Phillips Hue LED for each side of the cockpit.

Approx 50 secs for better effect than cockpit view.


Additional example...

Browse through this


Features/Modes


New Phillips 2015 Models:
Info Here

 

[RW65]

Sorry for this late reply Mr Latte… pretty hectic here at the minute plus suffering from writers’ block.

Really enjoying your photos, please keep them coming as your build progresses… the lighting effects are looking interestingly psychedelic… the new 1960’s?

I managed to view a few more of dododges’ moving chassis videos… those LFE’s are something else & have the potential to destroy a rig rather than enhance it… scary stuff!

I still need to organise myself & sketch my pedal plans for your perusal plus my seat setup will probably need some advice too… I hope to finalise these sketches over the next few weeks if all goes well.

Your delaying of PC tactile effects will hopefully align with my own build & may be advantageous to us both… possibly share ideas & strategies to acquire the cleanest results?

Please keep me posted, cheers for now.

 

[Mr Latte]

Nice to see you RW65.
My metal components arrived today.

Not really planned to use this thread to show my own build or progress of it.
Done similar at ISR to generate discussion but like here, very little participation or general interest in Simvibe it seems or to be more precise my crazy tactile ideas and repeated drivel.

Previous build thread as some will remember became a succession of changes of plans than of actual build so not wanting to repeat that tbh.

I have however been helping a few GTP members for a while via PM with different requests/builds and currently got a friend willing to do some testing with "Dual LFE/TST" and Simvibe AT LAST. So looking forward to his findings and own input.

Do enjoy the interaction with them and also learning of their own findings/preferences, just a shame you are not in the progress of such yourself.

Update:
More tweeks were done to the seat, improved the rear tactile section further. I think its close to being the way I am happy with it now. Just needs finishing caps and some touches, maybe a few new clamps to replace worn looking ones but it is not getting any major changes.

Main frame and front wheel deck section will be the next challenge now. Not fully convinced on the spring/shock idea making final build yet (awaiting advice) but need to get base section built and seat raised before I can get the tactile onto the seat.

*

The lighting is an experiment, again not something most people have tried to utilise for immersion.
Okay yes when static it has the purpose of aesthetics or ambiance and yes some use a form of that often.

However during live gaming it may just depend on the games themselves how well it works but do believe their is an aspect of increased visual immersion potential available here. Perhaps more so with dedicated incorporation of Phillips Hue combined with Ambilight into a cockpit.

I guess Im a bit weird in seeking beyond the norm, that in itself is what fuelled my tactile craze going beyond the limitations of a single unit.

Possible potential with Ambilight+Hue and sending the appropriate lighting to the desired location. New 2015 models offer improved "Game" mode for faster interaction on a "per pixel bassis"

Im looking to buy the new 40" model soon. Quite expensive though at £550. Does seem quite an accomplished 1080p model but I could buy 48" Samsung Curved or even some 4K basic models for similar or indeed less.

 

[RW65]

Hello Mr Latte, my apologies for this late post… have been wrapped up with so many other things just lately & the weeks have simply roared past.

The theme of this post is to let you know that I am still breathing & that my interest in this thread is still “game-on”... please keep this alive.

I hope everything is going well with you & your build & that your communiqué with others in regards to setups is progressing well… I hope you’ll share these discoveries in due time & also continue to include your build progression & photos on this thread… unsure if anyone else is interested or not, but I certainly am.

You have generously provided so much good information on this thread already that it would be a shame to pull the pin… perhaps in time this thread will be of service to other enthusiasts who wish to travel down this path & this thread can be of great significance if you were to keep all of these indispensable goodies collected here? I speak for myself having gone from zero knowledge prior to our conversations to competent & improving.

With my own build I have needed to make some recent changes with my pedal setup & am still finalising this before I post sketches. My seat setup has several options & I won’t know which to use until I have physically purchased my race seat… hopefully by December.

Again, my apologies for dropping the ball & not posting sooner… hope to have a follow-up post with sketches by the end of October when things here have settled down over here.

Cheers until next time.

 

[Mr Latte]

Appreciate your comments and will look forward to your updates.

This is your own thread however and as I pointed out before, I am in no rush or had planned to run a full build/progress report on my own current/cockpit build. Do hope some things I showed or discussed gives you or others inspiration but really I have other things going on too.

This past month or so I have done little regards build progress.
Suppose I could take a photo of 16x TI 100 rubber isolators I ordered from Parts Express along with some other things but hardly exciting. I do have a good impression of what the final build will look like but as I have said several times, I know full well during the build additional ideas or inspiration will come, it is just how things happen with me. So I look more to goals I want to achieve with it than actual direct pre-conceived plans to follow.

I got the XB1 and Phillips Ambilight TV and have been quite pleased with the addition Ambilight brings, particularly the new "per pixel gaming mode" but have discovered that the "Hue" additional "LED Strips" while adding more immersion do not work quite as well (speed wise) as the lighting within the TV itself. Do want to experiment more in this area too but money is limited. Forza 6 works rather well with passing side objects/cars and overhead objects illuminate with appropriate colour giving a nice addition to the entertainment (for me any-ways) and it can make gaming more engrossing. A normal screen or when it is turned off feels very dead/flat now. I had not seen many cockpits built using "Ambilight" so was curious to give it a go and pleased I went for it over a basic 4K model or curved set.

It could be some time before I have much more going on regards the build as other things take precedence but really the lack of discussion of tactile on the forums now and this thread is just further example of my current little motivation. I have no qualms in helping people and spending a good portion of my spare time in doing so but their is little else to add until you yourself are moving forward.

GTP Hardware section has become a shadow of what it used to be unfortunately regards the buzz and many excellent threads the community were creating or getting involved in.

 

[Mr Latte]

My seat setup has several options & I won’t know which to use until I have physically purchased my race seat… hopefully by December.

Again, my apologies for dropping the ball & not posting sooner… hope to have a follow-up post with sketches by the end of October when things here have settled down over here.

Cheers until next time.

Just checking in, wondering if your ready to share more plans/ideas and curious to what seat you were considering?

As you requested earlier today I finally got off my backside to have a go at making the metal base structure for the cockpit. Using some old tubes and clamps. They are not in the best condition but this build is part work in progress and to put some previous ideas into action.

It maintains the dual tracks idea previously discussed for separated "Left/Right" tactile
Currently 84" x 26" but this will likely get altered..

I have dropped the idea of using the big "Mason Springs"

Starting to run low on clamps to continue much further with no spare funds at present to purchase more.

 

[Mr Latte]

8x 84" tubes and attached triple clamps

Front - Back. Dual tracks with canted outer bars

Cross supports for seat section

Seat now has dual uprights for each corner

(Underside of seat) previously had planned for 4 uprights per corner.

This is a mockup of one side for the seat uprights

Looking back at the rear section with potential positioning of Ti300 isolators

 

[Mr Latte]

Buttkicker LFE (under seat) mock up

Both L/R LFE will be connected to tubing that are bolted to the seats rails

Front LFE for pedal sections will enable tactile to flow right down each individual L/R track.

Back - Front. Each track will have a MDF base board from pedals to seat. Easily drilled and bolted to the horizontal cross sections.

Potential layout for Ti300 isolators that will be below the MDF boards. Right hand side track will be identical.

 

[Mr Latte]

Full width of complete build could be approx 54" wide connected to secondary MDF base boards with additional 8x Ti100 isolators per side.

Outer isolators serve a purpose.

To support the Pioneer Chassis/Quad subwoofers. These look a bit odd beside the tubing but they will have their own supports/surrounds connected to each side. The wife is not amused with them in kitchen!

Some bass is felt from the subwoofers which will compliment the tactile (same channel) into the cockpit frame. Many people add a single sub for a LFE based role. The object of 4 is to increase impact/awareness of "Chassis/Quad" directional effects working in tandem with the tactile. It is NOT to have 4x LFE based subs. It needs proper testing to be determined how much advantage/excitement they will add. Of course other game genre like FPS based games with lots of directional audio will also benefit with gunfire/explosions etc being more dramatic.

Previously I done testing with dual subs behind a seat and liked it so 4 is worth a go, why not. The rears being closer to the seat can have reduced volume. Notice the tape on the tube between front sub and seat section. I may cut the top bar for easier entry/exit.

Better illustration.

Yet to work on the pedals platform for the front LFE. Have some ideas in what to do.
Wheel deck section will be supported with front uprights connected with uprights to the front subwoofer frame regions. Additionally from these it is likely I will go for hanging pedal layout.

 

[Mr Latte]

One of my biggest concerns with this cockpit going upstairs is finding a way possible to have so much tactile/vibrations and not have them go through the whole house. Have ideas to use a multi layer concept to dampen and sustain the vibrations.

It could be a major challenge with such a build. Current plan is using two 28mm MDF layers, potentially with Fatmatt applied / then covered with a rubber matt / lots of rubber isolators on top of 2-3 layers of rubber tiles. Had to do a check on what I had to continue with the planning.

My previous scrapped build was bigger so over the last couple of years all these materials have been accumulated. Generally at a more than wanted to spend price but over time it just happened.

Isolators were purchased from Parts Express
It does illustrate in some ways how crazy/insane, silly/foolish depending on how one looks at it the build did become.

12x Ti 300 / 4x Ti 200 / 18x Ti 100 / 3x Buttkicker / 4x Generic
You do NOT want to add up the cost of these...

 

[RW65]

Wow... Mr Latte, all I can say is wow! Your photos & build are something else...

Just a quick post tonight to say G'day... spending many hours on the iRacing forums recently & haven't checked back here in a while.

Your timing is good, planned to have my pedal sketches completed this weekend with another post. Since I last posted have made another small change to the pedal rigs. In short, I have two major designs with numerous mod options for each & have settled for the one that is more simpler in design... spent in excess of 100 hours in contemplation on these pedal rigs alone so I hope I have covered all bases? I will build a wooden prototype first before the metal fabrication is acted upon & have acquired some pedals to facilitate this process of measurements. Apologising in advance for my crude sketches that will follow shortly... my next post will probably become an anti-climactic event in itself, as I have been teasing the tension & expectation for so long?

The race seat purchase possibly next month or December at the latest. The Cobra "Suzuka" is the one that I want but I won't know for sure until "bum tested" in the shop (there are two race seat shops close by) & who knows, I may decide on something completely different on the day? Comfort is a must & will also need to consider the seats "arrangement style" for the transducers I plan to deploy.

Do you have any constructive or interesting Simvibe setups from your correspondence with others?

Thanks for your continual interest & cheers for now.