Multiculturalism

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From Wikipedia:

Multiculturalism is the cultural diversity of communities within a given society and the policies that promote this diversity. As a descriptive term, multiculturalism is the simple fact of cultural diversity and the demographic make-up of a specific place, sometimes at the organizational level, e.g., schools, businesses, neighborhoods, cities, or nations. As a prescriptive term, multiculturalism encourages ideologies and policies that promote this diversity or its institutionalization. In this sense, multiculturalism is a society “at ease with the rich tapestry of human life and the desire amongst people to express their own identity in the manner they see fit.”

Multicultural ideologies or policies vary widely, ranging from the advocacy of equal respect to the various cultures in a society, to a policy of promoting the maintenance of cultural diversity, to policies in which people of various ethnic and religious groups are addressed by the authorities as defined by the group they belong to.

Two main different and seemingly inconsistent strategies have developed through different government policies and strategies. The first focuses on interaction and communication between different cultures. Interactions of cultures provide opportunities for the cultural differences to communicate and interact to create multiculturalism. This approach is also often known as interculturalism. The second centers on diversity and cultural uniqueness. Cultural isolation can protect the uniqueness of the local culture of a nation or area and also contribute to global cultural diversity. A common aspect of many policies following the second approach is that they avoid presenting any specific ethnic, religious, or cultural community values as central.

Multiculturalism is often contrasted with the concepts of assimilationism and has been described as a "salad bowl" or "cultural mosaic" rather than a "melting pot".

What are your thoughts? Discuss below! :D
 
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Sure, why not?

Also the title should be just Multiculturalism
 
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Opposition[edit]
Main article: Criticism of multiculturalism
Critics of multiculturalism often debate whether the multicultural ideal of benignly co-existing cultures that interrelate and influence one another, and yet remain distinct, is sustainable, paradoxical, or even desirable.[153][154][155] It is argued that Nation states, who would previously have been synonymous with a distinctive cultural identity of their own, lose out to enforced multiculturalism and that this ultimately erodes the host nations' distinct culture.[156]

Harvard professor of political science Robert D. Putnam conducted a nearly decade long study how multiculturalism affects social trust.[157] He surveyed 26,200 people in 40 American communities, finding that when the data were adjusted for class, income and other factors, the more racially diverse a community is, the greater the loss of trust. People in diverse communities "don’t trust the local mayor, they don’t trust the local paper, they don’t trust other people and they don’t trust institutions," writes Putnam.[158] In the presence of such ethnic diversity, Putnam maintains that

[W]e hunker down. We act like turtles. The effect of diversity is worse than had been imagined. And it’s not just that we don’t trust people who are not like us. In diverse communities, we don’t trust people who do look like us.[157]

Ethologist Frank Salter writes:

Relatively homogeneous societies invest more in public goods, indicating a higher level of public altruism. For example, the degree of ethnic homogeneity correlates with the government's share of gross domestic product as well as the average wealth of citizens. Case studies of the United States, Africa and South-East Asia find that multi-ethnic societies are less charitable and less able to cooperate to develop public infrastructure. Moscow beggars receive more gifts from fellow ethnics than from other ethnies [sic]. A recent multi-city study of municipal spending on public goods in the United States found that ethnically or racially diverse cities spend a smaller portion of their budgets and less per capita on public services than do the more homogeneous cities.[159]

Dick Lamm, former three-term Democratic governor of the US state of Colorado, wrote in his essay "I have a plan to destroy America":

"Diverse peoples worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other - that is, when they are not killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent."[160]
Balibar characterizes criticisms of multiculturalism as “differentialist racism", which he describes as a covert form of racism that does not purport ethnic superiority as much as it asserts stereotypes of perceived “incompatibility of life-styles and traditions”.[161]

In New Zealand (Aotearoa), which is officially bi-cultural, multiculturalism has been seen as a threat to the Maori, and possibly an attempt by the New Zealand Government to undermine Maori demands for self determination.[162]
 
Because I don't want to have an exhausting discussion about it. There's no debate to be had because I never said everything is perfect, and you clearly are set in your opinion and won't change your mind. Nothing you say is going to convince me that it's OK to screen people based on ethnicity, or force law abiding people to suppress their cultures. Nothing I say will rid you of your irrational fear of the other.

I'm not afraid of being called a racist. You know what? In all honesty I am a bit racist. If I'm walking alone and a group of people of another race are approaching me I'll admit I get a bit nervous. That's definitely racist. You know what else it is? Irrational. Something I've made an effort to get over because it's irrational and isn't how I want to live my life.
Believe it or not, I used to be on your side of the fence. I live in a multiracial (or cultural) country after all.

Racial profiling isn't racist. It's common sense. But that isn't needed now is it, since there are a new breed of homegrown jihadists who come from any ethnicity. Here's an example, if tomorrow the West were to wage war with China for whatever reason (thanks Battlefield 4), I would paint the Chinese people living in the West as a group that poses possible threat. It's common sense.

Even if their cultures are incompatible with yours? Like eating pork for instance. You are willing to have your freedom of consuming pork, in schools for example, taken away just because somebody's religion say they aren't allowed to eat it?

Is releasing crime statistics of the United States, which shows an over representation of black people, a racist act?

@Spurgy 777 @Noob616 we should talk about it here now. (even if you said you didn't want to go any further, Noob)

Edit: thanks to the guys above. I am slow. :indiff:
 
Multiculturalism was a problem for me with the last girl I dated. We didn't get very far, really - being mixed, she hated when I made black jokes. I'm like girl, you white, you Ben Affleck, you sposed to laugh, but she wasn't having any of it. We stopped hanging out because she kept acting like a damn African princess or something.
 
Even if their cultures are incompatible with yours? Like eating pork for instance. You are willing to have your freedom of consuming pork, in schools for example, taken away just because somebody's religion say they aren't allowed to eat it?

Is releasing crime statistics of the United States, which shows an over representation of black people, a racist act?

"Freedom of consuming pork", what a load of ********. What about vegetarians and vegans, are they a threat to your "freedom" as well? Multiculturalism is about co-existence, not about forcing everyone to do the same thing. Otherwise it would be called monoculturalism.

Releasing crime statstics which shows an over representation of black people can be a racist act. It depends on how and why you do it. If you make it look like there is a causal link between ethnicity and crime then it is racist.
 
Even if their cultures are incompatible with yours? Like eating pork for instance. You are willing to have your freedom of consuming pork, in schools for example, taken away just because somebody's religion say they aren't allowed to eat it?
That's not even a remotely multi-cultural approach at all.

Now clearly labeling the products that contain pork to allow those dining to make a choice would be (you know just like they do with Vegetarian food). Not exactly difficult and I've been to a number of Muslim countries (in North Africa) that do just that.

I do find it rather ironic when Americans complain about Multiculturalism, given that the nation itself is a product of a massive mix of European cultures! With Europe itself also being a product of millenia of Multiculturalism.
 
Releasing crime statstics which shows an over representation of black people can be a racist act. It depends on how and why you do it. If you make it look like there is a causal link between ethnicity and crime then it is racist.
Would you censor facts out of fear of appearing racist, then?
 
No I wouldn't. What made you think that?
Because you made the claim that releasing crime statistics where certain minorities are overrepresented would somehow be racist. I wouldn't let allegations of racism stand in the way of truth, however ugly it may be.
DK
I wonder what the crime statistics for different ethnicities be if they were adjusted for socio-economic background?
Where were all the impoverished white people looting stores when whites were killed in controversial incidents by blacks?
 
"Freedom of consuming pork", what a load of ********. What about vegetarians and vegans, are they a threat to your "freedom" as well? Multiculturalism is about co-existence, not about forcing everyone to do the same thing. Otherwise it would be called monoculturalism.
No because vegans don't require the removal of all meat. They are fine with coexisting. Muslims on the other hand... Hell, I didn't get to eat pork in school but that's fine, I live in a Muslim country.

Q: What is your solution on the issue of pork meat in schools then?

Releasing crime statstics which shows an over representation of black people can be a racist act. It depends on how and why you do it. If you make it look like there is a causal link between ethnicity and crime then it is racist.
You do it like this in Sweden eh? http://www.friatider.se/sd-politiker-d-ms-f-r-islamkritik I am not surprised to read the things coming out of Sweden now.

Facts are facts. If you can't even properly identify or acknowledge the problem, how do you plan on solving it?

Btw, I don't think people are more prone to commit crime because of their skin pigmentation but it's more because of the culture which is prevalent in these society. The way I see it, black people are akin to Malay people in my country, which is weird because Malays are the majority in this country. :dunce: Definitely a cultural issue.

Multiculturalism was a problem for me with the last girl I dated. We didn't get very far, really - being mixed, she hated when I made black jokes. I'm like girl, you white, you Ben Affleck, you sposed to laugh, but she wasn't having any of it. We stopped hanging out because she kept acting like a damn African princess or something.
Same here. Apparently, if I were to marry a Muslim, I would have to convert to Islam? lol, hell no. Sorry, I love my freedom more.
 
I do find it rather ironic when Americans complain about Multiculturalism, given that the nation itself is a product of a massive mix of European cultures! With Europe itself also being a product of millenia of Multiculturalism.

I'm not complaining, but Wikipedia finds a distinction between multiculturalism and the American "melting pot" metaphor which implies a broadly common language, religion, with nationalities, cultures and ethnicities fused into a harmonious whole.
 
I'm not complaining, but Wikipedia finds a distinction between multiculturalism and the American "melting pot" metaphor which implies a broadly common language, religion, with nationalities, cultures and ethnicities fused into a harmonious whole.
Multiple cultures living together as a whole (harmonious at times and not at others) sounds a lot like multiculture to me (given that it sounds a lot like my family - which is just that).

No because vegans don't require the removal of all meat. They are fine with coexisting. Muslims on the other hand... Hell, I didn't get to eat pork in school but that's fine, I live in a Muslim country.

Q: What is your solution on the issue of pork meat in schools then?
Odd that you focus on Muslims then/ I've been to two Muslim countries in which Pork dishes were served alongside other dishes, just clearly labeled.

Far more strict would be Jewish communities, in which the very preperation of Pork in a kitchen would make it non-kosher. Yet even then in his book Jerusalem Yotam Ottolenghi (who is Jewish) talks of buying 'under the counter' Pork and Ham in his childhood (not to mention the book was co-written with Sami Tamimi, who is Palastinian - more multicultural bad news).



You do it like this in Sweden eh? http://www.friatider.se/sd-politiker-d-ms-f-r-islamkritik I am not surprised to read the things coming out of Sweden now.

Facts are facts. If you can't even properly identify or acknowledge the problem, how do you plan on solving it?

Btw, I don't think people are more prone to commit crime because of their skin pigmentation but it's more because of the culture which is prevalent in these society. The way I see it, black people are akin to Malay people in my country, which is weird because Malays are the majority in this country. :dunce: Definitely a cultural issue.
Which would again not be Multicultural.

Why do you keep citing issues of single-minded intolerance as if it were Multicultural?



Same here. Apparently, if I were to marry a Muslim, I would have to convert to Islam? lol, hell no. Sorry, I love my freedom more.
Or just that some people are over privileged idiots.

What is slightly more concerning that you are then making that a trait for the majority of a race, religion or culture!
 
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I'm not complaining, but Wikipedia finds a distinction between multiculturalism and the American "melting pot" metaphor which implies a broadly common language, religion, with nationalities, cultures and ethnicities fused into a harmonious whole.

None of which disproves @Scaff's assertion that the non-native United States is a product of multiple cultures; the Puritanical English, the inventive Scots, the labouring Irish, the hopeful Welsh, the exploratory French, the swashbuckling Spaniards, the entrepreneurial Dutch, the busy Germans, the flamboyant Italians, the intellectual Slavs et al.

Remnants of this can still be seen today with the continued existence of Cajun, Amish and Pennsylvania Dutch communities recalcitrant to Disneyfication and retaining their historic identities as part of their actual identity and not some green river Chicago drinking competition.
 
Remnants of this can still be seen today with the continued existence of Cajun, Amish and Pennsylvania Dutch communities recalcitrant to Disneyfication and retaining their historic identities as part of their actual identity and not some green river Chicago drinking competition.
As an aside on Cajuns, what's interesting about them is they're the descendants of a French colony in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick which ended up becoming its own society called Acadia apart from Quebec which remained a French colony. When the British took those lands over they were expelled to Louisiana, where "Acadians" morphed into "Cajuns". So a group of former French settlers were expelled from eastern Canada to Louisiana and now have a distinct culture separate from the Acadians that still exist in Canada. History's fun :P

Believe it or not, I used to be on your side of the fence. I live in a multiracial (or cultural) country after all.

Racial profiling isn't racist. It's common sense.
It's racist. It's judging people's character by their ethnicity, and discriminating based on it. There's more to racism than holocausts and slavery. Whether or not it seems prudent or logical doesn't have anything to do with whether or not it's racist. Saying "that person is black" is not racist. Saying "we should carefully monitor that person for stolen goods because he is black" is racist.
But that isn't needed now is it, since there are a new breed of homegrown jihadists who come from any ethnicity. Here's an example, if tomorrow the West were to wage war with China for whatever reason (thanks Battlefield 4), I would paint the Chinese people living in the West as a group that poses possible threat. It's common sense.
Yeah, in a war between China and the west there would certainly be fear towards the Chinese. Countries would probably start setting up internment camps and segregating people of Chinese descent from society. That happened in Canada and the USA during WWII with Japanese citizens, and it's universally considered a black mark on our histories. It happened to my ancestors when the Acadians were expelled from the Maritimes. It's certainly what would happen, and it's understandable, but that doesn't make it right. Emotions at a time of war might make these things feel justified at the time when they're clearly not right when you look back on it.

Even if their cultures are incompatible with yours? Like eating pork for instance. You are willing to have your freedom of consuming pork, in schools for example, taken away just because somebody's religion say they aren't allowed to eat it?
For one, I don't have a constitutional right to eat pork, so if a restaurant or a grocery store decides to stop selling pork that's their own decision made by a private entity, no different than a vegetarian restaurant or an organic grocery store. Would you go to a vegetarian restaurant and demand they serve you a steak? Of course not.

Secondly, I don't think this is actually happening, I haven't met a single Muslim in my entire life who said I shouldn't eat pork. I haven't been to a single grocery store or restaurant in my entire life (excluding vegetarian restaurants) that explicitly didn't serve pork. There's probably some muslim owned restaurants around that don't serve pork, but again that's no different than a vegetarian place. The kebab place in Rouen owned by a Moroccan dude serves bacon cheeseburgers alongside kebab, I think the fear here might be a little unfounded.

All I've seen is that grocery stores have started selling halal meat alongside everything else. It's just business, if the market will bear it, they'll sell it. The US where there's tons of conspiracy theories about how much power and influence Jews have over the media is also the heart of BBQ, with pulled pork, pork ribs, and bacon being very popular dishes. The market will sell what people want to buy, as long as government doesn't step in and say it's against the law to serve pork there's no problem.


Is releasing crime statistics of the United States, which shows an over representation of black people, a racist act?
No. Saying these statistics prove that black people are inherently more violent and dangerous to society is racist.

So you're right in that there is a high number of people in the all other ethnic origins category and that Toronto is very multicultural, that's not the issue, the issue is that you ignored the ethnic background of 56.6% of the population (approx.) seemingly on purpose. Which is quite misleading especially considering as my second link showed the top responses for ethnic background is dominated by Western European countries, none of which got a mention in your list for whatever reason.
One difference is because my numbers were based on the city proper and yours were on the whole metro area. It's why your numbers were in the 5.5M range and mine were in the 2.2M range.

I think you're nitpicking here. Whether it's 49% foreign born, or 51% white, or 56.6% ethnic Europeans doesn't change that 43-50% of the population depending on the metric are from countries outside of Canada, and ethnic backgrounds that aren't white European ancestry. If the opposition to multicultural societies were true, you'd expect that such a high number of foreign born people would lead to problems, even if we're not talking about Muslims, you'd think with such a huge culture gap between Chinese, South Asian (including Sikh) etc etc. cultures and Canadian/West European culture would lead to issues and tension. But that's not what happens. The argument isn't really contingent on any number than "a lot", because opposition usually presupposes that different cultures can't coexist.

I also wasn't trying to be misleading by using visible minorities either, to be frank I didn't feel like counting up and running the numbers of all the small numbers of Polish, Spanish, etc. Visible minority matters because it inherently means that your ancestry is from a part of the world that isn't white western Europe. It means you are outwardly and likely culturally part of the "other", relative to the dominant culture. If we're supposing that there's inherent issues with certain cultures and ethnicities we'd think it wouldn't just get groomed out, if the idea that cultures can't coexist is true then it would stand to reason that they won't just start getting along after a few generations. Nobody really has the same fear that 3rd generation German immigrants to Canada won't get along with 3rd generation British immigrants to Canada.

I brought up the ethnicities and groups that I did because they're groups I've seen people complaining about in the past. Nobody complains about the German guy running the Schnitzel place in London but they'll complain about the Moroccans in Paris. I used those as examples of all the different ethnicities that exist in large numbers in Toronto without sparking city wide tension. If Muslim, Chinese, Indian, Sikh, or Filipino immigrants and their cultures were truly incompatible with a western country, you'd think having hundreds of thousands of each of them in Toronto would cause problems. But it doesn't.

As an aside I find it very interesting that we're rolling Italian and Irish immigrants into "white". That's a pretty recent thing, if we were to go back a hundred years and tell German and British immigrants to North America that they'd be considered to have a similar ethnic background to Irish and Italian immigrants they'd laugh in your face.
 
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Here's an example, if tomorrow the West were to wage war with China for whatever reason (thanks Battlefield 4), I would paint the Chinese people living in the West as a group that poses possible threat. It's common sense.
And history shows just how inaccurate such black and white views can be.

During WW2 the Japanese were interned by the US, yet "the most decorated unit in U.S. military history." was the 442nd Infantry Regiment......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Infantry_Regiment_(United_States)

.....so a group perceived as a threat was actually a valuable asset.
 
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And this quote from Canadian journalist Ken Adachi, interned during WW2.

Born in Canada, brought up on big-band jazz, Fred Astaire and the novels of Henry Rider Haggard, I had perceived myself to be as Canadian as the beaver. I hated rice. I had committed no crime. I was never charged, tried or convicted of anything. Yet I was fingerprinted and interned.

Civil rights, civil liberties lol
 
Because you made the claim that releasing crime statistics where certain minorities are overrepresented would somehow be racist. I wouldn't let allegations of racism stand in the way of truth, however ugly it may be.

False. I made the claim that when the statistics are released in such a way that it implies that there's a causal link between ethnicity and crime, it constitutes an act of racism. The reason is very simple, because the statistics doesn't say anything about causality.

Where were all the impoverished white people looting stores when whites were killed in controversial incidents by blacks?

That argument only works when it's stripped of all context.




No because vegans don't require the removal of all meat. They are fine with coexisting. Muslims on the other hand... Hell, I didn't get to eat pork in school but that's fine, I live in a Muslim country.

Q: What is your solution on the issue of pork meat in schools then?

Well, here in Sweden we've done some hard research in that field. We must have spent billions and billions of government fundings on it over a couple of centuries, and this is what we've come up with: You can actually (and this is mind-blowing, but just hang on) have several different meals based on different dietary preferences and let people chose which one they want to eat. It's amazing, isn't it?


You do it like this in Sweden eh? http://www.friatider.se/sd-politiker-d-ms-f-r-islamkritik I am not surprised to read the things coming out of Sweden now.

I'm not surprised to see that kind of sources coming from you. What's next, you're gonna ask Stalin to provide facts on capitalism or Goebbels to provide facts on Judaism? Honestly, if you can't find any other source than a pro-nazi website, don't bother looking for sources at all.

Facts are facts. If you can't even properly identify or acknowledge the problem, how do you plan on solving it?

If you can't properly read a text and comprehend the content of it, how can you even tell what is fact and what isn't? Statistics is just data, it doesn't tell you what the causal link is. This is basic science principles, handing statistics over to someone who doesn't understand this is like letting a toddler fly a jumbojet.

Btw, I don't think people are more prone to commit crime because of their skin pigmentation but it's more because of the culture which is prevalent in these society. The way I see it, black people are akin to Malay people in my country, which is weird because Malays are the majority in this country. :dunce: Definitely a cultural issue.

Still no causality. Still racism.
 
That's not even a remotely multi-cultural approach at all.
Indeed.

Multiculturalism is not simply the presence of more than one culture. It's the practice of allowing cultures to retain their identities while being part of the whole. Multiculturalism doesn't force the larger society to change to accommodate the smaller ones - that'd be maddeningly impossible because many smaller cultures directly contradict - but it does require that the smaller ones abandon practices the larger society deems unacceptable (female circumcision, forced marriage, stoning adulterers to death extrajudicially) while still allowing them to retain language, food, practices, worship and clothing.


In a multicultural society you don't prohibit food to the larger population because one of the cultures does not permit consumption of that food, so @kennylmao's concept of a non pig-shunning country banning pork in schools because the Muslims don't like it (or, as Scaff points out, the Jews) is anathema to multiculturalism. Of course it might still happen because some folk like to pretend that the smaller cultures are offended by cultural norms - like a few years ago when someone decided Christmas was offensive to Muslims (it's not) - it's just not under the banner of multiculturalism.
 
but it does require that the smaller ones abandon practices the larger society deems unacceptable (female circumcision, forced marriage, stoning adulterers to death extrajudicially) while still allowing them to retain language, food, practices, worship and clothing.
The other element is that these are all clear rights violations. Nobody whatsoever is saying that we should allow rights violations to happen in Europe and NA because they happen in Saudi Arabia.
 
It's racist. It's judging people's character by their ethnicity, and discriminating based on it. There's more to racism than holocausts and slavery. Whether or not it seems prudent or logical doesn't have anything to do with whether or not it's racist. Saying "that person is black" is not racist. Saying "we should carefully monitor that person for stolen goods because he is black" is racist.
You would rather some random terrorist blow himself up, killing innocent civilians than be called a "racist"?
What did that Canadian soldier in Ottawa die for man?

Racial stereotypes come from observation. Not all black people are criminals, not all Asians are nerds, it's just there is a trend of over representation when things are observed. Best thing to do is to treat everyone as the individuals that they are but take extra precaution when safety is concerned. How far that 'extra precaution' means, personally for me, would just be keeping an extra eye on things. Anything beyond that, like pulling someone over because they are black and giving them extra ****, is wrong. But unfortunately that happens because racists exist.

Yeah, in a war between China and the west there would certainly be fear towards the Chinese. Countries would probably start setting up internment camps and segregating people of Chinese descent from society. That happened in Canada and the USA during WWII with Japanese citizens, and it's universally considered a black mark on our histories. It happened to my ancestors when the Acadians were expelled from the Maritimes. It's certainly what would happen, and it's understandable, but that doesn't make it right. Emotions at a time of war might make these things feel justified at the time when they're clearly not right when you look back on it.
Yeah, that's bad. Though I'm not saying "take them out from society and treat them like the enemy". What I said was that they would be a group that poses possible threat to the country. So, just keep an extra eye out on them (like what intelligence agencies do), not round em up and put them in a corner. Or gas em. :scared:

For one, I don't have a constitutional right to eat pork, so if a restaurant or a grocery store decides to stop selling pork that's their own decision made by a private entity, no different than a vegetarian restaurant or an organic grocery store. Would you go to a vegetarian restaurant and demand they serve you a steak? Of course not.

Secondly, I don't think this is actually happening, I haven't met a single Muslim in my entire life who said I shouldn't eat pork. I haven't been to a single grocery store or restaurant in my entire life (excluding vegetarian restaurants) that explicitly didn't serve pork. There's probably some muslim owned restaurants around that don't serve pork, but again that's no different than a vegetarian place. The kebab place in Rouen owned by a Moroccan dude serves bacon cheeseburgers alongside kebab, I think the fear here might be a little unfounded.

All I've seen is that grocery stores have started selling halal meat alongside everything else. It's just business, if the market will bear it, they'll sell it. The US where there's tons of conspiracy theories about how much power and influence Jews have over the media is also the heart of BBQ, with pulled pork, pork ribs, and bacon being very popular dishes. The market will sell what people want to buy, as long as government doesn't step in and say it's against the law to serve pork there's no problem.
Yeah, groceries, restaurants, etc. are businesses. I don't care, they can do whatever they want if it means it is beneficial to the business (Like that incident with halal meat at Subways which Liquid brought up in the other thread). What about schools? (You don't have to answer if your answer would be more or less the same as eran.)

The school I went to didn't serve pork. Understandable because the non-Muslim population of the school is only about 5%. For my last year I went to a different school where the non-Muslim population was around 80%. Still no pork. So the way my country is doing it here is wrong, yes?

Moroccan dude serving bacon cheeseburgers? (Sure he's not a Christian or an atheist?) If he's a Muslim then that's commendable. Now there's a liberal Muslim right there. 👍 Sadly, majority of the Muslims where I live wouldn't even sit with you in a restaurant that serves pork. According to my dad however, things didn't use to be like this. Ever since the Islamic Revolution (for better or for worse) Muslims were never the same again.

No. Saying these statistics prove that black people are inherently more violent and dangerous to society is racist.
It's numbers man. And it shows black people are over represented in crime. That is all. Well, there's that theory about black people, testosterone and violence but even if that is true, it is only one of the contributing factors (I think the main contributing factor is the culture).

Honest question, how do you guys do multiculturalism in Canada? In America there is Ferguson. In Europe there is the rise of the far right. Where I live we have institutionalized racism ie: affirmative action action policy. How does Canada do it? Is the key to your success in the magic word, "sorry"? :sly:

Well, here in Sweden we've done some hard research in that field. We must have spent billions and billions of government fundings on it over a couple of centuries, and this is what we've come up with: You can actually (and this is mind-blowing, but just hang on) have several different meals based on different dietary preferences and let people chose which one they want to eat. It's amazing, isn't it?
That would be additional costs to schooling by adding a specialized diet on the basis of religion, but whatever Sweden thinks is best. But then, not all parents would be so happy as to agree to their tax money being spent that way*. How do you solve that? (Btw, ridiculous of you guys to spend billions just to figure that out though.)

*Who am I kidding, you guys pay some of the highest tax and a good chunk of it goes to funding the multicultural dream. You guys will pay for anything.

I'm not surprised to see that kind of sources coming from you. What's next, you're gonna ask Stalin to provide facts on capitalism or Goebbels to provide facts on Judaism? Honestly, if you can't find any other source than a pro-nazi website, don't bother looking for sources at all.
I take information from all sources (Believe it or not, I ventured onto Stormfront and read the stuff there despite not being a white supremacist or white at all for that matter.); I trust no one. Especially an Orwellian government which apparently charges people for criticizing immigration under the guise of "hate speech" and having it's citizens' house visited by thought police for commenting on the internet(?). As a Swede yourself, I'll ask straight up, is that true? Honestly, the things I read are so crazy, I don't even know what to believe. :boggled:

If you can't properly read a text and comprehend the content of it, how can you even tell what is fact and what isn't? Statistics is just data, it doesn't tell you what the causal link is. This is basic science principles, handing statistics over to someone who doesn't understand this is like letting a toddler fly a jumbojet.
Indeed. Do you really, really understand Islam?

Still no causality. Still racism.
Saying that certain people's culture is the source of the problem is racism. Holy 🤬. I'm not familiar with America but are you saying 'gang culture', 'thug life' or whatever it's called is not one of the causes of it?
 
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You would rather some random terrorist blow himself up, killing innocent civilians than be called a "racist"?
What did that Canadian soldier in Ottawa die for man?
Pretty low blow. And a ridiculous false dichotomy. I don't get offended or angry very easily but that's easily the most offensive thing anyone's said to me in years, you're suggesting I'm morally culpable in that shooting, honestly that's just a despicable debate tactic. This is exactly why I get so frustrated with this 🤬, it's just exhausting and there's only so many avenues to take before I'm apparently morally culpable for an isolated tragedy committed by a crackhead operating alone.

The guy in Ottawa that shot the soldier was a Canadian citizen, born to a Libyan father and a French Canadian mother. If you saw him in the street you would consider him as white as me with French and British ancestry. He was a homeless crackhead, previously arrested for holding up a McDonalds with a stick. The guy was insane, and regardless, what would you suppose we do otherwise? He was a Canadian citizen born in Canada, if my government's in the business of restricting the rights of Canadian citizens born in Canada then I don't want to live there anymore.

Racial stereotypes come from observation. Not all black people are criminals, not all Asians are nerds, it's just there is a trend of over representation when things are observed. Best thing to do is to treat everyone as the individuals that they are but take extra precaution when safety is concerned. How far that 'extra precaution' means, personally for me, would just be keeping an extra eye on things. Anything beyond that, like pulling someone over because they are black and giving them extra ****, is wrong. But unfortunately that happens because racists exist.
Giving someone extra attention or extra security protocols because of their race or ethnicity is racist. It may be prudent, practical, or understandable, but none of those things change the fact that discriminating on the basis of race is racist.

Yeah, that's bad. Though I'm not saying "take them out from society and treat them like the enemy". What I said was that they would be a group that poses possible threat to the country. So, just keep an extra eye out on them (like what intelligence agencies do), not round em up and put them in a corner. Or gas em. :scared:
You're just drawing the line a little earlier than others, the principle is the same. You won't convince me that it's OK to discriminate against law abiding citizens based on ethnicity in the name of counter terrorism or domestic security. It doesn't work and all it does is erode the civil rights our countries are supposed to protect in the first place.


Yeah, groceries, restaurants, etc. are businesses. I don't care, they can do whatever they want if it means it is beneficial to the business (Like that incident with halal meat at Subways which Liquid brought up in the other thread). What about schools? (You don't have to answer if your answer would be more or less the same as eran.)

The school I went to didn't serve pork. Understandable because the non-Muslim population of the school is only about 5%. For my last year I went to a different school where the non-Muslim population was around 80%. Still no pork. So the way my country is doing it here is wrong, yes?
I don't know. I don't know any of the specifics so I can't say. It kinda sucks if you can't have bacon I dunno.

Moroccan dude serving bacon cheeseburgers? (Sure he's not a Christian or an atheist?) If he's a Muslim then that's commendable. Now there's a liberal Muslim right there. 👍 Sadly, majority of the Muslims where I live wouldn't even sit with you in a restaurant that serves pork. According to my dad however, things didn't use to be like this. Ever since the Islamic Revolution (for better or for worse) Muslims were never the same again.
As far as I know he's a muslim. He serves kebabs, fries, and bacon cheeseburgers to drunk white people after they leave the bars.

I don't get the part about Jews and bacon. (One thing I've observed though is that everybody blames the Jews for everything. :lol: Like seriously, Westerners blame the Jews, Muslims blame the Jews, it's crazy.)
Jews don't eat pork or bacon either. So you'd think that if the muslims are going to take away our bacon the Jews already would have given that they have tons of wealthy people in positions of power.

I didn't "blame the Jews" for anything. What you're reading into my posts is very telling. Read my post again and try to find something that would suggest I blamed the Jews for anything. It's not there.

It's numbers man. And it shows black people are over represented in crime. That is all. Well, there's that theory about black people, testosterone and violence but even if that is true, it is only one of the contributing factors (I think the main contributing factor is the culture).
Once again, it is not racist to say "black people are disproportionately represented in crime". It's racist to say that because of that we need to crack down on black communities or give them extra searches and security. It's racist to treat a random black person on the street who has given no reasonable inclination that's he's a criminal as a criminal.

Honest question, how do you guys do multiculturalism in Canada? In America there is Ferguson. In Europe there is the rise of the far right. Where I live we have institutionalized racism ie: affirmative action action policy. How does Canada do it? Is the key to your success in the magic word, "sorry"? :sly:
It's been an official government policy since the 70's/80's. It's just a cultural attitude that we're an accepting and multicultural society. That's why I chuckle when people talk about multiculturalism "eroding" cultural identity, in Canada multiculturalism is our cultural identity. It's not perfect but generally these things just don't become controversies here. Gay marriage was passed 10+ years ago to no fanfare. Sikhs couldn't carry their kirpan daggers in schools or public buildings because weapons weren't allowed, so we made an exception to the law and everyone got over it.

People just go to work and school and shop like they do anywhere else and happen to pass Chinese and Indian Canadians on the street. We don't all gather and have a multicultural potluck at city hall every morning, we just kinda...live our lives without worrying about what god our neighbours believe in.
 
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Ever since the Islamic Revolution (for better or for worse) Muslims were never the same again.
What all of them?

Bloody hell, I better tell my Muslim friend her son can't celebrate Christmas anymore, he's going to be gutted. You see she is allowed to have male friends without having to ask permission, can speak to them when she wants, isn't forced to wear a specific dress code, has built a brilliant fake fireplace for Santa, all while still going to the Mosque on a Friday.


It's numbers man. And it shows black people are over represented in crime. That is all. Well, there's that theory about black people, testosterone and violence but even if that is true, it is only one of the contributing factors (I think the main contributing factor is the culture).
I think you might find that one of the biggest factors tends to be socio-economic rather than cultural.



Honest question, how do you guys do multiculturalism in Canada? In America there is Ferguson. In Europe there is the rise of the far right. Where I live we have institutionalized racism ie: affirmative action action policy. How does Canada do it? Is the key to your success in the magic word, "sorry"? :sly:
Ahh so all America is like Ferguson, all Europe is embracing the far right?

Do you know how much you are generalizing and just how inaccurate that is?

Oh and separate cooking facilities in schools? Unless you are dealing with orthodox Jews or Muslims then all you need is a pen and some labels (as I have witnessed in Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria), and given that most of the orthodox have separate schools and are not in mainstream then its not an issue.

What do we do to make Multiculturalism work? Well basically just be a bit grown up about and not accept intolerant views as the norm, its not really that hard at all.
 
Multiculturalism is not simply the presence of more than one culture. It's the practice of allowing cultures to retain their identities while being part of the whole. Multiculturalism doesn't force the larger society to change to accommodate the smaller ones - that'd be maddeningly impossible because many smaller cultures directly contradict - but it does require that the smaller ones abandon practices the larger society deems unacceptable (female circumcision, forced marriage, stoning adulterers to death extrajudicially) while still allowing them to retain language, food, practices, worship and clothing.
That is what I understand of the concept of multiculturalism.

In a multicultural society you don't prohibit food to the larger population because one of the cultures does not permit consumption of that food, so @kennylmao's concept of a non pig-shunning country banning pork in schools because the Muslims don't like it (or, as Scaff points out, the Jews) is anathema to multiculturalism. Of course it might still happen because some folk like to pretend that the smaller cultures are offended by cultural norms - like a few years ago when someone decided Christmas was offensive to Muslims (it's not) - it's just not under the banner of multiculturalism.
Is this also done by those same folks? www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2575724/Parents-fury-pork-sausages-banned-school-menu-replaced-halal-meat.html If it is, then what the hell are they doing? They certainly aren't helping.

Also, might as well ask, is this also true? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rawing-documents-according-Islamic-rules.html

(Dailymail, sorry :guilty:)

DK
I wonder what the crime statistics for different ethnicities be if they were adjusted for socio-economic background?
How come certain minorities mostly fail to better themselves while others are highly successful in doing so?
 
That is what I understand of the concept of multiculturalism.
Really? Are you sure given the next part of your post.


Is this also done by those same folks? www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2575724/Parents-fury-pork-sausages-banned-school-menu-replaced-halal-meat.html If it is, then what the hell are they doing? They certainly aren't helping.

Also, might as well ask, is this also true? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rawing-documents-according-Islamic-rules.html

(Dailymail, sorry :guilty:)
And this is to illustrate what exactly (other than the fact that people are stupid enough to believe everything the Daily Mail says)?

How come certain minorities mostly fail to better themselves while others are highly successful in doing so?
Well that would depend on exactly what country you are talking about, its history and origin of the various cultures and races into it.

Or are you you attempting to make some over simplistic and inaccurate racial stereotype?

Do you not think that America (for example) has poor, white criminals? Or affluent honest black people?
 
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Once again, it is not racist to say "black people are disproportionately represented in crime". It's racist to say that because of that we need to crack down on black communities or give them extra searches and security. It's racist to treat a random black person on the street who has given no reasonable inclination that's he's a criminal as a criminal.
Here is something to think about for this.
Pre-1996 Olympics here in Atlanta, crime rates in the city suburbs were horrendous (see Wikipedia or the Internet for sources, I've already done a report on this before) compared to the rest of the state, in fact, worse than Chicago. Atlanta Mayor Jackson had increased police awareness and numbers to an almost ubiquitous point where crime was the lowest ever, after some scandals which favored blacks.

Now, if the same were to happen today, and given what has just happened in Ferguson and the rest of the states, Atlanta would be the next center of attention for CNN, especially with their HQ being here. There is a growing trend here which I have observed that anything done in response to a situation involving a black, defendant of the situation or not, the race card will be pulled, and nothing will happen to actually curl the active problem.
Especially while I was still in high school. I recall maybe having two black teachers in my four years, and other black students would take advantage of them. The teachers would be "buddies" with those students, but remain serious with the rest of the class. My other teachers for the most part were all white women. They couldn't side with anyone, or the race card would be pulled. The same for my Spanish teachers, tending to side more along with those of their likes.

But my school is no where near on the level of schools that exist in the APS or surrounding systems. Those inter-city schools are the most flawed of the state, and possibly country. Multiculturalism stems from schools and how people get along with each other in their early years. You look at how many apps there are in the App Store or Google Play, and see all the school/neighborhood ratings. In Atlanta at least, the only good inter-city schools are the private academies, and the perimeter schools like the ones I attended have higher ratings. From AP Euro everyone is taught that cities are most poor in demographics due to an excess of minorities, cheap housing, and other factors that allow similar people to flock to the cities. Crime is a result of this and is annoying to watch everyday on the news, and to see nothing being done by community members themselves.
 
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