Multiculturalism

[Famine]

Not sure how population density comes into play but, ok,

Then how do you rationalise the population density and crime correlations of inner city environments as you have been doing?

Put simply, it's easy to tolerate someone with very different cultural practices to you if they're a very, very long way away - less so if they're next door.

I've seen my mistake. The UK is just as multicultural as Canada and I shall give equal weightage to Scaff's and Noob's opinion.

You should give more weight to the opinion that is better argued and factually supported. Giving equal weight to opinions simply for being opinions is how we end up with pork sausages being banned in schools...

 

[kennylmao]

Given that 'fairs much better' is very subjective (to say the least) and Britain has arguably been Multicultural since the Romans landed your two points are not exactly on solid grounds.

Both Canada and Britain have had challenges and successes in this area, both of which undermine your apparent claim that Multiculturalism doesn't work because of something about all blacks being criminals by culture and something about Muslims all being bad.

That by the way is exactly how your argument is coming across!

Where have I said "ALL BLACK PEOPLE ARE CRIMINALS" or "ALL MUSLIMS ARE BAD"?

Unlike most non-Muslims here where I live - who spend most of their lives with their 'own kind' - I spent a good part of my live (half actually) with the Muslims. I can personally say they are good, peaceful people... until you bring up the issue on human rights, but you can live a blissfully ignorant life with them. I did so for at least 10 years.

I haven't had any experience with black people but I would treat every person I meet as the individual which they are.

That's it, you seem to fail at understanding the argument I am presenting. I do not wish to waste anymore of our time.

Last question, do you agree in what is described of the black community in this post? https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/america-the-official-thread.54029/page-189#post-10263384

@Famine, got it. Thank you Famine.

 

[Imari]

Smarter than the general populace = nerds.

Not even close.

I use the term loosely. Nerd, geek, or do you want me use a long winded specific term of 'people who happen to be more successful than others academically for whatever reason'.

Please tell me English is not your first language.

Honestly, why use a derogatory term when you could have simply said "Asians are smarter than the norm" and achieved greater understanding, because then people aren't debating what the term "nerd" means to you.

FYI, nerd comes with a whole boatload of connotations beyond the purely academic. If you don't wish to imply that the group in question are also socially incapable then use different words.

In fact, you might want to think carefully about ALL the words you use, because people will naturally assume that you actually mean what you say.

That's it, you seem to fail at understanding the argument I am presenting. I do not wish to waste anymore of our time.

Maybe you need to actually state your argument in clear terms then. All I'm seeing is a quote from Wikipedia, and two pages of you arguing stereotypes. Where are you going with this?

 

[Scaff]

Where have I said "ALL BLACK PEOPLE ARE CRIMINALS" or "ALL MUSLIMS ARE BAD"?

Unlike most non-Muslims here where I live - who spend most of their lives with their 'own kind' - I spent a good part of my live (half actually) with the Muslims. I can personally say they are good, peaceful people... until you bring up the issue on human rights, but you can live a blissfully ignorant life with them. I did so for at least 10 years.

I haven't had any experience with black people but I would treat every person I meet as the individual which they are.

That's it, you seem to fail at understanding the argument I am presenting. I do not wish to waste anymore of our time.

Did you fail to read this bit...

"That by the way is exactly how your argument is coming across!"

....it would seem you did.

I haven't had any experience with black people but I would treat every person I meet as the individual which they are.

But your not, your making massive sweeping generalizations and then presenting it as fact. How exactly do you take black Americans are over represented in crime figures (without looking at any other factors or data) and use that to state that Multiculturalism doesn't work?

That's it, you seem to fail at understanding the argument I am presenting. I do not wish to waste anymore of our time.

You may want to look at what you are presenting and how.

Last question, do you agree in what is described of the black community in this post? https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/america-the-official-thread.54029/page-189#post-10263384

Which part, given that its not a single point being made but a series of points some of which I would agree with and others I would not?

 

[Joel]

Just to clarify I didn't mean to chest thump about how great and accepting Canadians are, I was just speaking from personal experience about a city I've been to a lot of times where many cultures all coexist peacefully. I bring up Toronto not to prove that Canada is some amazing utopia of acceptance (talk to some of the people on the native reserves and they'll have a different story), but more to disprove that there's something inherent to Muslims, Sikhs, Chinese, Indians, etc etc. that means they can't function in a western society or live close to eachother.

My favourite example would probably be Kensington Market and Chinatown in Toronto. Kensington Market is a historical neighbourhood known today for being pretty granola. Marijunana activism, independent book stores, vintage clothing stores, organic fruit and vegetable markets, music and art festivals, a high number of rastafarians, and fair trade organic coffee shops, etc. all in Victorian era buildings. Chinatown is...Chinatown, and these two neighbourhoods are right next to eachother. You can be at a fair trade organic gluten free bakery one minute, and the next block over all the street and business signs are in Mandarin.

When I was in Toronto with my family last winter I bought a vintage pea coat from a gay guy with fake glasses, a beard, and a handlebar moustache. He was wearing flannel, a scarf, tight pants, and moccasins, and told me the coat looked fabulous on me. Next door we got organic fair trade coffee. Then we walked 50m to a market in Chinatown with 30+ customers in the store, and my brother and I were the only ones speaking English

 

[ClydeYellow]

Good old fashioned hard work and education<...>

And both things can't be accessed by someone who's a)unemployable and b), as a direct consequence of a), poor. A good example of social exclusion would be the situation of the Roma and Sinti people in Italy. In the 50s a report on those population was commissioned to a pool of anthropologists and sociologists who clearly had no idea what they were doing; for they decided those populations were all, without a trace of a doubt, nomadic (they aren't) and presented a clear cultural retard (whatever that means). Thus, the decision to put them in camps instead of, say, in the graduatories for public housing, was taken. And those guys are still pariahs and seen no better than locusts, despite their ability to become an integrating part of society in the countries that adopted different tactics speaking otherwise.

As for multiculturalism; it is a failing idea in my opinion. The idea that every culture should be able to dictate law on its own members (which is what multiculturalism is, at least in Italian-language academic literature; I hope you'll excuse me if it means something in the English-speaking world) is only destined to create pockets of society where democracy isn't as well-established and where some individual rights are violated in the name of the defense of collective rights. And I can't stand for that.

A more appropriate question would be, "what do you think of multicultural societies"? And I'll tell you, they're a great thing (even taking into consideration Putnam's and Salter's very valid theories, which however can be applied to any modern, "metropolitan" society, as Simmel understood way before Putnam and Salter were even born - so one could argue that the loss of trust in the other and of social capital isn't a consequence of the rise of multicultural societies, but of societies characterized by the division of labour and organic solidarity, WHICH tend to be more open to different cultures). The interaction of cultures is a good cure to stagnation. Also, keep in mind that you'd be hard-pressed to find a society that isn't, to a certain degree, multicultural.

Besides, as many others said, kebab is too damn good for me to refuse the notion of a multicultural society. And I live in the nation of pizza, mind you.

 

[Havok_]

My 2 cents:

Being exposed to different cultures and backgrounds makes people smarter and more respectful of people's beliefs and customs. I have to admit though, being a Spanish American (Madrid), my time in Spain and in Europe in general exposed me to both positive reinforcements of understanding and non-acceptance of other races and nations.

Mainly I had seen and heard many examples of dislike towards individuals from Africa as well as people from South America and even the U.S. Spain is very weird in that sense, where you can find both extremes. I was lucky enough to have met some of the coolest people on earth, friends ranging from India, all the way to Tokyo, Italy, Israel, Pakistan and everything in between. As well as my awesome friends in Spain.

Russians who speak perfect Spanish, Asian people who have lived in Spain they're whole lives, and countless other examples. Who are naturalized Spaniards regardless of the color of their skin or backgrounds.

Now that I am here in America I sometimes feel like the oddman out. The same way some foreigners were treated in Spain is how I am treated here. Dirty looks, disrespectful comments to my wife and I etc, etc. BUT that is not the norm, I have also met some awesome people who have welcomed me to their homes with nothing but respect and admiration for looking for my piece of the "American Pie".

What I am trying to say here is that no matter where you go people will always be mis-interpreted judged and be treated unfairly by a select type of person, furthermore - the only reason many of these people have these negative stereotypes is the fact that they have never had the exposure to multiculturalism. If they were they would realize that people all over the world are the same.

A fellow from Australia could be just as much as a petrol head as me or anyone else, and those likes and similarities are what creates a bond among us all. It's unfortunate however that some people wont give each the chance to know each other, tearing those walls down would only make our world a better place, for sure.

 

[FoolKiller]

Now that I am here in America I sometimes feel like the oddman out. The same way some foreigners were treated in Spain is how I am treated here. Dirty looks, disrespectful comments to my wife and I etc, etc.

You have to explain that you're not Mexican Hispanic, but European. Suddenly, you will become exotic, not some immigrant who:

 

[Johnnypenso]

Canada has a population of 35m, Britain (I'm assuming you mean the United Kingdom, rather than just Britain [England, Scotland and Wales]) has 64m. The UK squeezes in 665 people per square mile, Canada has 8.

That statistic while true, is also misleading. The vast majority of our population is squeezed either into narrow pockets of land along the borders and Great Lakes or into relatively concentrated cities like Calgary, Edmonton which comprise 50% of the population of Alberta in just two metropolitan regions. Nearly 50% of our population is concentrated in our 10 largest cities. The vast, vast majority of the country is uninhabited.

 

[Famine]

That statistic while true, is also misleading. The vast majority of our population is squeezed either into narrow pockets of land along the borders and Great Lakes or into relatively concentrated cities like Calgary, Edmonton which comprise 50% of the population of Alberta in just two metropolitan regions. Nearly 50% of our population is concentrated in our 10 largest cities. The vast, vast majority of the country is uninhabited.

Indeed - like the Golden Horseshoe. But even that portion of Canada, housing a full quarter of the population, only averages out a population density of 720pm^-2. My home town of Sheffield is not huge - 3rd largest population in the UK excluding London, of 550,000 - but has a population density of 4,000pm^-2 and my current nearest big town has 140,000 people crammed into 21sqm - 6,600pm^-2...

You're not rammed in tight over there

 

[Johnnypenso]

Indeed - like the Golden Horseshoe. But even that portion of Canada, housing a full quarter of the population, only averages out a population density of 720pm^-2. My home town of Sheffield is not huge - 3rd largest population in the UK excluding London, of 550,000 - but has a population density of 4,000pm^-2 and my current nearest big town has 140,000 people crammed into 21sqm - 6,600pm^-2...

You're not rammed in tight over there

The "golden horseshoe" is a large area much of which is industrial and plenty of which is green land. The majority of people in the Golden Horseshoe live in Toronto which has a popuation density of 10,747/sq. mile. There are huge tracts of greenspace which is nice but we don't live in the greenspace. The population tends to be very highly concentrated where it's residential. I'm sure there are lots of cities more highly concentrated, but the majority of Canadians live in highly concentrated pockets of housing the same as most western countries.

 

[Famine]

The "golden horseshoe" is a large area much of which is industrial and plenty of which is green land. The majority of people in the Golden Horseshoe live in Toronto which has a popuation density of 10,747/sq. mile. There are huge tracts of greenspace which is nice but we don't live in the greenspace. The population tends to be very highly concentrated where it's residential. I'm sure there are lots of cities more highly concentrated, but the majority of Canadians live in highly concentrated pockets of housing the same as most western countries.

Sheffield's urban area is just about 2/3rds green space - part of the reason I picked it Drop that off and we're up to 11,565pmi^-2...

Toronto is more an exception than a rule - there's only 6 municipalities in the top 100 by population with more than 10,000pmi^-2 (Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, Victoria, North Vancouver and New Westminster), while the UK has 14 excluding London (Portsmouth, Southampton, Luton, Leicester, Manchester, Slough, Watford, Southend-on-Sea, Liverpool, Blackpool, Nottingham, Birmingham, Bournemouth, Bristol), all of which are in England. Ten of those places beat Toronto's population density, while Portsmouth is the only one approaching Vancouver's 13,590.

I'm afraid I don't know the City of Vancouver all that well, but here's a Google Streetview from what seems to be a bit of it. It might be that I've accidentally picked a really nice spot, so here's another one of some flats up the road - if I'm misrepresenting, please chuck up some of the really tightly packed spots. Now here's Hackney and Portsmouth. Here's an aerial view of a bit of Portsmouth - it's about 0.01 square miles and contains just about 250 dwellings, for a minimum, single occupancy screenshot of 25,000 people per square mile. Now again, I might be picking a really nice bit of the City of Vancouver, but this is to the same scale...

And then there's London... There's bits of London with population densities in excess of 30,000pmi^-2 - Islington, Kensington, Tower Hamlets, Hackney - but the entire metropolitan area racks up 13,530pmi^-2. By the same metrics, the 13,590pmi^-2 City of Vancouver is merely the most populous part of Greater Vancouver, at 1,905pmi^-2 - it manages the same peak density in the densest 50 square miles as London averages over 700 square miles...


It seems that we just pack 'em in tighter all round over here. Still, it means we get to really hate our neighbours, regardless of their culture. So there's that.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Sheffield's urban area is just about 2/3rds green space - part of the reason I picked it Drop that off and we're up to 11,565pmi^-2...

Toronto is more an exception than a rule - there's only 6 municipalities in the top 100 by population with more than 10,000pmi^-2 (Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, Victoria, North Vancouver and New Westminster), while the UK has 14 excluding London (Portsmouth, Southampton, Luton, Leicester, Manchester, Slough, Watford, Southend-on-Sea, Liverpool, Blackpool, Nottingham, Birmingham, Bournemouth, Bristol), all of which are in England. Ten of those places beat Toronto's population density, while Portsmouth is the only one approaching Vancouver's 13,590.

I'm afraid I don't know the City of Vancouver all that well, but here's a Google Streetview from what seems to be a bit of it. It might be that I've accidentally picked a really nice spot, so here's another one of some flats up the road - if I'm misrepresenting, please chuck up some of the really tightly packed spots. Now here's Hackney and Portsmouth. Here's an aerial view of a bit of Portsmouth - it's about 0.01 square miles and contains just about 250 dwellings, for a minimum, single occupancy screenshot of 25,000 people per square mile. Now again, I might be picking a really nice bit of the City of Vancouver, but this is to the same scale...

And then there's London... There's bits of London with population densities in excess of 30,000pmi^-2 - Islington, Kensington, Tower Hamlets, Hackney - but the entire metropolitan area racks up 13,530pmi^-2. By the same metrics, the 13,590pmi^-2 City of Vancouver is merely the most populous part of Greater Vancouver, at 1,905pmi^-2 - it manages the same peak density in the densest 50 square miles as London averages over 700 square miles...


It seems that we just pack 'em in tighter all round over here. Still, it means we get to really hate our neighbours, regardless of their culture. So there's that.

My purpose wasn't to compare London or anywhere else to Canadian cities, it was to simply point out that saying we have a low population/area does not do justice to the actual population density where people actually live. Most of us live in cites either in apartments/condos or in houses in subdivisions, not out in the forest that occupies most of the country.

 

[Grand Prix]

Sheffield's urban area is just about 2/3rds green space - part of the reason I picked it Drop that off and we're up to 11,565pmi^-2...

Toronto is more an exception than a rule - there's only 6 municipalities in the top 100 by population with more than 10,000pmi^-2 (Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, Victoria, North Vancouver and New Westminster), while the UK has 14 excluding London (Portsmouth, Southampton, Luton, Leicester, Manchester, Slough, Watford, Southend-on-Sea, Liverpool, Blackpool, Nottingham, Birmingham, Bournemouth, Bristol), all of which are in England. Ten of those places beat Toronto's population density, while Portsmouth is the only one approaching Vancouver's 13,590.

I'm afraid I don't know the City of Vancouver all that well, but here's a Google Streetview from what seems to be a bit of it. It might be that I've accidentally picked a really nice spot, so here's another one of some flats up the road - if I'm misrepresenting, please chuck up some of the really tightly packed spots. Now here's Hackney and Portsmouth. Here's an aerial view of a bit of Portsmouth - it's about 0.01 square miles and contains just about 250 dwellings, for a minimum, single occupancy screenshot of 25,000 people per square mile. Now again, I might be picking a really nice bit of the City of Vancouver, but this is to the same scale...

And then there's London... There's bits of London with population densities in excess of 30,000pmi^-2 - Islington, Kensington, Tower Hamlets, Hackney - but the entire metropolitan area racks up 13,530pmi^-2. By the same metrics, the 13,590pmi^-2 City of Vancouver is merely the most populous part of Greater Vancouver, at 1,905pmi^-2 - it manages the same peak density in the densest 50 square miles as London averages over 700 square miles...


It seems that we just pack 'em in tighter all round over here. Still, it means we get to really hate our neighbours, regardless of their culture. So there's that.

The areas you picked are interesting, because although they're fairly dense, they're full of rich people... Those areas are both "Old Money" and "New Money." Older, smaller houses existing alongside huge mansions that take up a whole lot, recently built by Chinese immigrants. Yes, you were indeed looking at some really nice parts of Vancouver.

Try looking at the West End, south of Stanley Park, for high density, high-rise apartment areas.

 

[Swagger897]

The areas you picked are interesting, because although they're fairly dense, they're full of rich people... Those areas are both "Old Money" and "New Money." Older, smaller houses existing alongside huge mansions that take up a whole lot, recently built by Chinese immigrants. Yes, you were indeed looking at some really nice parts of Vancouver.

Try looking at the West End, south of Stanley Park, for high density, high-rise apartment areas.

I remember learning about this in AP human geography... It was a pretty weird video we watched afterwards, describing how Walmart is a posh place to go to in China...

None-the-less, I remember it and it did have something to deal with multiculturalism.. I can't remember what exactly it was but I remember Chinese people in Vancouver.

 

[Joel]

That's a pretty reasonable thing to remember about Vancouver in all honesty.

 

[Johnnypenso]

And then there's London... There's bits of London with population densities in excess of 30,000pmi^-2 - Islington, Kensington, Tower Hamlets, Hackney - but the entire metropolitan area racks up 13,530pmi^-2. By the same metrics, the 13,590pmi^-2 City of Vancouver is merely the most populous part of Greater Vancouver, at 1,905pmi^-2 - it manages the same peak density in the densest 50 square miles as London averages over 700 square miles...

It seems that we just pack 'em in tighter all round over here. Still, it means we get to really hate our neighbours, regardless of their culture. So there's that.

30,000/sq. mi? We call that a park over here. Population density per sq. mi at the end:

 

[Carbonox]

http://m.thelocal.se/20150101/refugees-protest-rural-sweden-re-location

Only the best is acceptable for refugees in Sweden...

 

[eran0004]

http://m.thelocal.se/20150101/refugees-protest-rural-sweden-re-location

Only the best is acceptable for refugees in Sweden...

You mean, like theft and murder is only good enough for Finns?

Also, how is that related to the thread?

 

[Johnnypenso]

http://m.thelocal.se/20150101/refugees-protest-rural-sweden-re-location

Only the best is acceptable for refugees in Sweden...

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you

 

[KSaiyu]

Few topics are creating such tension at the moment as the immigration situation. A documentary about life on a British street from the makers of Benefits street is already facing calls for it not to air:

Benefits Street spin-off on Channel 4 about immigrant residents sparks fears of racism with local MP saying it shouldn't be on TV

• Channel 4 is facing calls to cancel Immigration Street ahead of broadcast
• Local MP, police and crime commissioner called for it to be scrapped
• Fear it could spark racial tensions on Derby Road, Southampton
• In census only 17 per cent in area described themselves as white British
• Six episodes had been commissioned, but cut to one-hour programme
• Crew filming show were pelted with eggs by angry residents

BBC article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-31567728

Is debate on this subject in Britain being stifled?

 

[Liquid]

It doesn't matter what colour any of us are, I'd never want my old street to be part of a programme like that. It'd be shamefully embarrassing for reasons other than race.

 

[KSaiyu]

It doesn't matter what colour any of us are, I'd never want my old street to be part of a programme like that. It'd be shamefully embarrassing for reasons other than race.

I call it "Benefits Street syndrome"

 

[RacerPaul]

Multiculturalism is a lot like Communism...

Great ideas in theory but the reality is sadly lacking

Neither work in the real world

Imo

BBC article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-31567728

Is debate on this subject in Britain being stifled?

The powers that be have been trying to stifle this debate for decades

 

[Joel]

Multiculturalism is a lot like Communism...

Great ideas in theory but the reality is sadly lacking

Neither work in the real world

Imo

Hmm that's interesting. I guess I grew up in the matrix then.

 

[Scaff]

Hmm that's interesting. I guess I grew up in the matrix then.

Same here.

 

[RacerPaul]

Hmm that's interesting. I guess I grew up in the matrix then.

Hmm, cryptic. I can see by your flag that English may not be your first
language, but could you have another go please?

See if I can get a clue what you mean

Thank you

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Hmm, cryptic. I can see by your flag that English may not be your first
language, but could you have another go please?

See if I can get a clue what you mean

Thank you

Nothing wrong with his English, I can see what he means and I'm sure many others can...

 

[RacerPaul]

Nothing wrong with his English, I can see what he means and I'm sure many others can...

Indeed, I just wanted it spelled out. Ok, so you think I'm wrong about multiculturalism not working?

Opinions of course. Neither mine nor anyone else's can ever be proven to be 100% fact on this issue

 

[Joel]

Hmm, cryptic. I can see by your flag that English may not be your first
language, but could you have another go please?

See if I can get a clue what you mean

Thank you

I'm from (anglophone) Canada, and English is my first language. The point being that I've lived in Canada my whole life (save for the past 6 months in France on a university exchange), a very much multicultural country where multiculturalism works. The part about the matrix is a reference to a film appropriately named The Matrix, where it's revealed that Earth and the human experience takes place within a computer simulation. The joke being that since I've lived in a multicultural society that works, I must have grown up in the matrix since apparently multicultural societies can't work.

Opinions of course. Neither mine nor anyone else's can ever be proven to be 100% fact on this issue

That's not true. Your claim was that multiculturalism can't or doesn't work in the real world. A functional multicultural society immediately disproves that premise. If I said "internal combustion engines don't work", and you showed me a Toyota Corolla, that would instantly prove me wrong.