Multiculturalism

[Famine]

Is this also done by those same folks? www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2575724/Parents-fury-pork-sausages-banned-school-menu-replaced-halal-meat.html If it is, then what the hell are they doing? They certainly aren't helping.

Yes, insofar as I can determine the headline.

There's always someone who speaks up on behalf of the perceived offence to [insert group] - usually not someone from that group - and there's always some committee that seeks to ameliorate this offence by banning something that the group in question aren't actually offended by. A pork sausage isn't offensive to a Muslim. Or a Jew.

Amusingly - or rather not - this gives rise to an anti-[insert group] sentiment because "they" wanted whatever it was banned, "who do they think they are coming here and imposing their laws on us". So in not wanting to offend the group by banning something not offensive to them, you lead to the rise of fascistic groups and political parties and "hate crime" against them. Nice going.

Also, might as well ask, is this also true? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rawing-documents-according-Islamic-rules.html

(Dailymail, sorry )

No idea. I don't click on Daily Mail links, because they're not going to use me as a number to sell advertising space and further their idiotic fascist agenda.

 

[kennylmao]

Yes, insofar as I can determine the headline.

There's always someone who speaks up on behalf of the perceived offence to [insert group] - usually not someone from that group - and there's always some committee that seeks to ameliorate this offence by banning something that the group in question aren't actually offended by. A pork sausage isn't offensive to a Muslim. Or a Jew.

Amusingly - or rather not - this gives rise to an anti-[insert group] sentiment because "they" wanted whatever it was banned, "who do they think they are coming here and imposing their laws on us". So in not wanting to offend the group by banning something not offensive to them, you lead to the rise of fascistic groups and political parties and "hate crime" against them. Nice going.

I see. Thanks for the clarification. 👍

No idea. I don't click on Daily Mail links, because they're not going to use me as a number to sell advertising space and further their idiotic fascist agenda.

Ok, understandable.

Really? Are you sure given the next part of your post.

I was confused. What Famine described is what I generally understand but what I see being done in practice is completely different.

And this is to illustrate what exactly (other than the fact that people are stupid enough to believe everything the Daily Mail says)?

I am not British so pardon me for not realizing The Daily Mail is crap news.

Well that would depend on exactly what country you are talking about, its history and origin of the various cultures and races into it.

You said it, culture.

I think you might find that one of the biggest factors tends to be socio-economic rather than cultural.

Or is it not culture?

Or are you you attempting to make some over simplistic and inaccurate racial stereotype?

Do you not think that America (for example) has poor, white criminals? Or affluent honest black people?

Yes I do. I said over representation. That is where stereotypes come from; observation.

 

[Scaff]

I was confused. What Famine described is what I generally understand but what I see being done in practice is completely different.


I am not British so pardon me for not realizing The Daily Mail is crap news.

Which is why you are saying one thing to support it and then using totally poor examples to try and say its not working.

You said it, culture.

Yes because that's all I said!

Or is it not culture?

So Socio-economic factors are just cultural are they?

Do criminal's from a poor scoio-economic background want to remain poor or are they using what they see as the only/quickest route out of poverty?

Yes I do. I said over representation. That is where stereotypes come from; observation.

Edit: Ah damnit! Sorry mods.

And you then automatically make a link to culture, correlation does not equal causality.

 

[kennylmao]

Do criminal's from a poor scoio-economic background want to remain poor or are they using what they see as the only/quickest route out of poverty?

Good old fashioned hard work and education gets you out of poverty. Not crime. I have zero sympathy for people who resort to crime.

And you then automatically make a link to culture, correlation does not equal causality.

I am trying to figure out the causation of the problem. I solve problems.

My country: Malay people are the majority. Chinese, Indian, Portugese, Natives, etc. are the minority. Malays were economically at a disadvantage up to the 1970's. Chinese people 'controlled the economy' so to speak. Race riots happened. Affirmative action policy implemented in favor of the Malays. 40 years on, though things have vastly improved, Malays were still at a disadvantage based on the population ratio. And then there are social ills which for whatever reason specially plagued the Malay community like baby dumping, street racing, and, I think the contributing factor, "lazy culture" (or "lepak culture", 'lepak' meaning 'hangout' in Malay), etc. I do not discredit the Malays who have worked hard and improved themselves but the majority have failed.

Doesn't that partly rule out the 'majority oppressing the minority' narrative that the United States has been going with? If I remember reading correct, the US also has affirmative action policies in favor of minorities. Not quite sure how long it has been implemented though.

Also, I understand the purpose of it but aren't affirmative action policies inherently racist?

 

[Scaff]

Good old fashioned hard work and education gets you out of poverty. Not crime. I have zero sympathy for people who resort to crime.

Good for you. Pity it totally ignores the point.

I am trying to figure out the causation of the problem. I solve problems.

My country: Malay people are the majority. Chinese, Indian, Portugese, Natives, etc. are the minority. Malays were economically at a disadvantage up to the 1970's. Chinese people 'controlled the economy' so to speak. Race riots happened. Affirmative action policy implemented in favor of the Malays. 40 years on, though things have vastly improved, Malays were still at a disadvantage based on the population ratio. And then there are social ills which for whatever reason specially plagued the Malay community like baby dumping, street racing, and, I think the contributing factor, "lazy culture" (or "lepak culture", 'lepak' meaning 'hangout' in Malay), etc. I do not discredit the Malays who have worked hard and improved themselves but the majority have failed.

Doesn't that partly rule out the 'majority oppressing the minority' narrative that the United States has been going with? If I remember reading correct, the US also has affirmative action policies in favor of minorities. Not quite sure how long it has been implemented though.

Also, I understand the purpose of it but aren't affirmative action policies inherently racist?

At what point have I said that affirmative action is the answer?

That's a complex subject that arguably can do as much harm as it does good.

As I pointed out (and you ignored in favour of a glib comment) poor criminals turn to crime to escape being poor (regardless of the moral rights or wrongs of it - again far more complex - is it more moral to steal food for your children or let them starve).

If this was a cultural choice then the crime would be the means to the end, but in the majority of cases its not, not does that explain why the poor can be from any race, religion or culture.

 

[kennylmao]

Good for you. Pity it totally ignores the point.

And your point being? Why aren't they taking the legitimate route to get out of poverty? Why go for the fast and easy (which happen to be illegal) route?

At what point have I said that affirmative action is the answer?

That's a complex subject that arguably can do as much harm as it does good.

No, the question on affirmative action was just a random inquiry for your opinion on it. Sorry if it seemed that I was implying you agreed with it.

As I pointed out (and you ignored in favour of a glib comment) poor criminals turn to crime to escape being poor (regardless of the moral rights or wrongs of it - again far more complex - is it more moral to steal food for your children or let them starve).

Get a job? You have the sole responsibility for the well being of your children. Failure to care for them is nobody's fault but yourself. What ever happened to responsibility and family planning?

^(Mostly referring to people who aren't responsible with their own lives. I know there are people who become broke from misfortune. Not talking about them.)

But then there's unemployment. Fair enough. But then why is America all set on giving amnesty to illegals if there weren't enough jobs? (One thing I don't get about current world happenings )

If this was a cultural choice then the crime would be the means to the end, but in the majority of cases its not, not does that explain why the poor can be from any race, religion or culture.

Err, were you meaning to say the opposite of the highlighted part?

I know poor people come from various backgrounds. So does rich people. So does racists. So does 'whatever kind of person' one can be. But the facts are, there is an over representation (to population ratio/more likely to) of failure within specific demographics despite affirmative action. Doesn't make sense.

This is one of the reasons why I ultimately came to the conclusion that multiculturalism cannot work. I want everyone to be the best that they can be and I partly agree with affirmative action policies because, although it disadvantages a certain group, it helps another and it's only temporary. The sooner income equality can be achieved the better, everybody's happy, but somehow the concept has failed.

 

[Imari]

Get a job? You have the sole responsibility for the well being of your children. Failure to care for them is nobody's fault but yourself. What ever happened to responsibility and family planning?

You make it sound like poor people are poor by choice. Maybe some are, but I suspect that many aren't. It's not a pleasant way to live.

 

[kennylmao]

You make it sound like poor people are poor by choice. Maybe some are, but I suspect that many aren't. It's not a pleasant way to live.

Mostly talking about those who aren't responsible with their lives. Of course there are those who have had misfortune befall them. There is welfare in America, isn't it? Not sure how it works as we don't have such a thing here. There are soup kitchens though but that's about it.

 

[Imari]

Mostly talking about those who aren't responsible with their lives. Of course there are those who have had misfortune befall them.

So you might want to reword your comments so that they discriminate between those who are poor through misfortune or circumstances not entirely within their control, and those who mooch off the state. If that is actually what you mean.

There is welfare in America, isn't it? Not sure how it works as we don't have such a thing here. There are soup kitchens though but that's about it.

Don't ask me, ask someone American.

Are we talking about multiculturalism in general, or is this another America thread? I didn't know that I needed to have an in-depth knowledge of the US welfare system to participate in a conversation about multiculturalism.

 

[kennylmao]

@Imari Sorry. Yes, this is the multiculturalism thread.

 

[Swagger897]

As far as "how welfare works" for the sake of answering the question, one can live off of welfare and have made more income than a full-time job at McDonalds. My economics class worked it out so you can take it up with the teacher, but there may be some discrepancies we were unable to find..

This is something that frequently occurs here, but as far as multicultural aspect for it, I don't think there's a stat for that. The system is taken for granted and those who do such don't care to leave from it. They'll make fake identities to renew if they are caught, and is ridiculous.
However, there are some without help at all, so those are the absolute poor. They are the ones who need the help. You can't discriminate against them because of that.
But like you said @kennylmao those who drag their tail while someone else is pulling their arms is what is ridiculous.
In the wake of the events from Ferguson, many people were saying the black community needs to bring order to itself before they try to bring order to everyone else. Many of those who find themselves as "inferior" to others don't bother to attend city/community events, neighborhood meetings, or any other event which helps the community as a whole. No. They want to go out and change laws for the entire country, and that isn't how life works.

So as far as "multicultural" can go, dragging pants, robbing stores, and disrespect for people, let alone officers is not a great way to represent yourself or your own community. Then to cause riots/absurd protests over an issue which has no defense is gross.

I've never seen Latinos revolt for equal wages, never seen Asians revolt for, well anything really, I've heard of Muslims/Islamic groups argue for religious freedom and have gotten their results (mostly), but revolts for equality when you are the cause itself, yep, seen that.

 

[Scaff]

And your point being? Why aren't they taking the legitimate route to get out of poverty? Why go for the fast and easy (which happen to be illegal) route?

You assume a legal route is open to all while ignoring the moral question around it that I asked to illustrate this point.

If you had no other option would you steal food to feed your children or let them starve to death?

Would you defraud welfare to continue to feed them once welfare ran out (as it does in some counties) if no jobs were available?

No, the question on affirmative action was just a random inquiry for your opinion on it. Sorry if it seemed that I was implying you agreed with it.

No problem

Get a job? You have the sole responsibility for the well being of your children. Failure to care for them is nobody's fault but yourself. What ever happened to responsibility and family planning?

^(Mostly referring to people who aren't responsible with their own lives. I know there are people who become broke from misfortune. Not talking about them.)

But then there's unemployment. Fair enough. But then why is America all set on giving amnesty to illegals if there weren't enough jobs? (One thing I don't get about current world happenings )

Again you assume an ideal world in which jobs for all exist that will pay a living wage, what if this is not the case?

Err, were you meaning to say the opposite of the highlighted part?

Nope. If crime among the poor was mainly down to culture then the act of committing the crime would be enough.

I know poor people come from various backgrounds. So does rich people. So does racists. So does 'whatever kind of person' one can be. But the facts are, there is an over representation (to population ratio/more likely to) of failure within specific demographics despite affirmative action. Doesn't make sense.

It does make sense if you let go of the concept of culture being the main driving force.

This is one of the reasons why I ultimately came to the conclusion that multiculturalism cannot work. I want everyone to be the best that they can be and I partly agree with affirmative action policies because, although it disadvantages a certain group, it helps another and it's only temporary. The sooner income equality can be achieved the better, everybody's happy, but somehow the concept has failed.

Socio-economic disparity is the reason why multiculturalism doesn't work?

Hate to break it too you, a society can exist with almost no outside cultures and still have massive socio-economic issues, take a look at the history of poverty in the major British cities in the late 18th and early 19th centuries for an example.

If that's why you think Multi-cultural societies can't work, then you still haven't understood what they are.

 

[kennylmao]

Ok, rewind for a bit.

What do we do to make Multiculturalism work? Well basically just be a bit grown up about and not accept intolerant views as the norm, its not really that hard at all.

Hah, "just grow up". Your optimism of humans disgust me. And that question was directed towards a Canadian btw.

Well that would depend on exactly what country you are talking about, its history and origin of the various cultures and races into it.

Or are you you attempting to make some over simplistic and inaccurate racial stereotype?

USA, black people. Please explain history and culture.

Inaccurate stereotype? I don't know how many times I need to present this but, black people are over represented in crime statistics. As if that fact is "inaccurate". Asians are nerds. Is that stereotype inaccurate as well?

 

[Scaff]

Ok, rewind for a bit.
Hah, "just grow up". Your optimism of humans disgust me. And that question was directed towards a Canadian btw.

My optimism for people disgust you? Well that says a lot more about you than me.

BTW - I don't really care who it was directed towards, the AUP leaves me free to reply regardless of who it was originally aimed at.

USA, black people. Please explain history and culture.

Are you seriusoly telling me you don't know the origins of the majority of black Americans? That the history of slavery, inequality and segregation has escaped you? You don't think that has been a factor in the over representation of non-whites and blacks in terms of poverty in the US?

Inaccurate stereotype? I don't know how many times I need to present this but, black people are over represented in crime statistics. As if that fact is "inaccurate". Asians are nerds. Is that stereotype inaccurate as well?

Black and non-whites are also over represented in terms of poverty as well, yet you seem to not understand that this is not a simple coincidence, but you seem happy to take one dataset and use it to confirm your own bias.

Oh and no Asians are not nerds, once again its an unsupported stereotype.

 

[Liquid]

Oh and no Asians are not nerds, once again its an unsupported stereotype.

As if 'Asians' is a catch all term for everyone as far west as Beirut, as far east as Hiroshima, as far south as Jayapura and as far north as Novosibirsk.

Strictly for the purposes of proving a point: @kennylmao, did you mean Orientals are nerds, Arabs are nerds, Siberians are nerds or Indians are nerds?

You're generalising wayyyy too much.

 

[kennylmao]

As if 'Asians' is a catch all term for everyone as far west as Beirut, as far east as Hiroshima, as far south as Jayapura and as far north as Novosibirsk.

Strictly for the purposes of proving a point: @kennylmao, did you mean Orientals are nerds, Arabs are nerds, Siberians are nerds or Indians are nerds?

You're generalising wayyyy too much.

Oh come on now, I was talking about black people and the USA. What Asians do you think I am talking about?

 

[Liquid]

Oh come on now, I was talking about black people and the USA. What Asians do you think I am talking about?

I don't know, that's why I asked you. Again, talking about groups as if all the individuals are the same. I used this:

As if 'Asians' is a catch all term for everyone as far west as Beirut, as far east as Hiroshima, as far south as Jayapura and as far north as Novosibirsk.

[...] @kennylmao, did you mean Orientals are nerds, Arabs are nerds, Siberians are nerds or Indians are nerds?

You're generalising wayyyy too much.

As a response to this:

Asians are nerds. Is that stereotype inaccurate as well?

Well?

 

[Scaff]

Oh come on now, I was talking about black people and the USA.

Actually you were making sweeping generalizations about Multiculturalism in general and using black Americans to try an say it doesn't work because black people in america are criminals.

What Asians do you think I am talking about?

We have no idea, hence the question (BTW it doesn't actually matter what the answer is - its still an inaccurate stereotype).

 

[Imari]

Your optimism of humans disgust me.

How on earth is anyone disgusted by optimism?

I can see how you might think it foolish or misplaced, but disgusting? Seriously, put the insults away.

Asians are nerds. Is that stereotype inaccurate as well?

Depends what you mean by nerds.

At least with your black people claim there are statistics that can be seen that show that there is indeed a relatively high proportion of black criminals. I'd love to see the data you're pulling your "Asians are nerds" claim from.


And you know what? It doesn't even matter. "Race" exists because there are certain groups of people who evolved separately for a long enough period of time that there is at the very least a visual difference between them. There are almost certainly other differences too.

If the aim of multiculturalism is to promote a harmonious community in which people of differing backgrounds and lifestyles can live together without conflict, tell me how exactly does this promoting of negative racial stereotypes like you're doing help?

 

[kennylmao]

My optimism for people disgust you? Well that says a lot more about you than me.

BTW - I don't really care who it was directed towards, the AUP leaves me free to reply regardless of who it was originally aimed at.

Reality has turned me into a cynical bastard.

How's UKIP and BNP doing over there? Britain is clearly not as peacefully multicultural as Canada so I wouldn't take your word for it as I would of Noob's.

Are you seriusoly telling me you don't know the origins of the majority of black Americans? That the history of slavery, inequality and segregation has escaped you? You don't think that has been a factor in the over representation of non-whites and blacks in terms of poverty in the US?

lol, yes.

Of course not. I was asking a specific, though obvious, question because I wasn't sure what reason you were gonna come up with... And my assumption is right. So, slavery that has been abolished many years ago is pushing black people today into poverty and crime?

You are a person. An individual. Do whatever you can to change your life.

Black and non-whites are also over represented in terms of poverty as well, yet you seem to not understand that this is not a simple coincidence, but you seem happy to take one dataset and use it to confirm your own bias.

Oh and no Asians are not nerds, once again its an unsupported stereotype.

Why did you say "non-whites and blacks"? Indians are one of the most successful minority groups in the US and they aren't white.

Wait, do you even understand the meaning of 'over representation'?

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/asianamericans-graphics/st_12-06-17_aa_higher-education-2/

Smarter than the general populace = nerds.

 

[Liquid]

Smarter than the general populace = nerds.

Congratulations!

With this you have forfeited any argument you will ever present in this, or indeed any, thread on GTP.

 

[kennylmao]

I don't know, that's why I asked you.

Unlike Britain where Asians mean Pakistani/Indian/Bangladeshi, Asians in the American sense mean Chinese/Korean/Vietnamese/Filipino. The more you know eh?

With this you have forfeited any argument you will ever present in this, or indeed any, thread on GTP.

Because... why? The term is offensive?

 

[Liquid]

Because... why? The term is offensive?

Offensive? Please. No, because of how stupid it is.

 

[kennylmao]

Offensive? Please. No, because of how stupid it is.

I use the term loosely. Nerd, geek, or do you want me use a long winded specific term of 'people who happen to be more successful than others academically for whatever reason'.

 

[Famine]

How's UKIP and BNP doing over there?

Badly and incredibly badly, respectively.

Britain is clearly not as peacefully multicultural as Canada so I wouldn't take your word for it as I would of Noob's.

I think you've just lost any kind of footing you have on being the voice of equality and reason when you give people's words different weight based on their country of origin over any other factor.

 

[Scaff]

Reality has turned me into a cynical bastard.

I would hazard a guess that its in danger of turning you into what you claim to dislike.

How's UKIP and BNP doing over there? Britain is clearly not as peacefully multicultural as Canada so I wouldn't take your word for it as I would of Noob's.

The BNP are a spent force within the UK, UKIP have one MP (for comparison the Green Party have 4) so unless you get your view of the UK only from the Daily Mail (as you seem to) I'm going to have to temper that with a cold hard dose of reality.

Multiculturalism is working more than well enough in the UK and has been for the bulk of its history (we have as a nation been quick and eager to adopt and integrate massive elements from other cultures).

lol, yes.

Of course not. I was asking a specific, though obvious, question because I wasn't sure what reason you were gonna come up with... And my assumption is right. So, slavery that has been abolished many years ago is pushing black people today into poverty and crime?

You are a person. An individual. Do whatever you can to change your life.

Given that people who's grandparents were slaves are still alive today and a good number of people who suffered under segregation and discrimination are alive today I would say that your rather wide of the mark.

Slavery and inequality pushed black Americans into a cycle of poverty that they are still working to get out of today would be a far more accurate statement, not that I expect that to make the tiniest dent in your clear bias and what appears to be thinly disguised racism.

Why did you say "non-whites and blacks"? Indians are one of the most successful minority groups in the US and they aren't white.

Doesn't change the fact that they are over represented in terms of poverty.

Wait, do you even understand the meaning of 'over representation'?

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/asianamericans-graphics/st_12-06-17_aa_higher-education-2/

Smarter than the general populace = nerds.

Yes and you don't understand that redefining your point repeatedly until you think it shows what you want undermines you to a huge degree. You said Asians = Nerds, now its american Asians = nerds (and that's still not true given that the majority still don't have degrees), now ask yourself what percentage of the whole Asian race are represented by American Asians?

 

[kennylmao]

I think you've just lost any kind of footing you have on being the voice of equality and reason when you give people's words different weight based on their country of origin over any other factor.

On the basis of 'multiculturalism-ness', I think Canada fairs much better and has more experience on it than Britain. Therefore I would trust a Canadian's opinion more than a Brit.

 

[Scaff]

On the basis of 'multiculturalism-ness', I think Canada fairs much better and has more experience on it than Britain. Therefore I would trust a Canadian's opinion more than a Brit.

Given that 'fairs much better' is very subjective (to say the least) and Britain has arguably been Multicultural since the Romans landed your two points are not exactly on solid grounds.

Both Canada and Britain have had challenges and successes in this area, both of which undermine your apparent claim that Multiculturalism doesn't work because of something about all blacks being criminals by culture and something about Muslims all being bad.

That by the way is exactly how your argument is coming across!

 

[Famine]

On the basis of 'multiculturalism-ness', I think Canada fairs much better and has more experience on it than Britain.

Canada has a population of 35m, Britain (I'm assuming you mean the United Kingdom, rather than just Britain [England, Scotland and Wales]) has 64m. The UK squeezes in 665 people per square mile, Canada has 8. The UK has been populated by tribes and cultures from Western Europe for 30,000 years, with the modern population's ethnic backgrounds being established over a thousand years ago, with Europe's oldest black and Chinese populations, both of which predate Canada's existence as a country. Hell, Canada was part of the British Empire until 1931...

Therefore I would trust a Canadian's opinion more than a Brit.

Regardless of any knowledge or information they might bring or any other factors. Just on the basis of their country of birth.

Do you not see how discriminatory that sounds?

 

[kennylmao]

Canada has a population of 35m, Britain (I'm assuming you mean the United Kingdom, rather than just Britain [England, Scotland and Wales]) has 64m. The UK squeezes in 665 people per square mile, Canada has 8. The UK has been populated by tribes and cultures from Western Europe for 30,000 years, with the modern population's ethnic backgrounds being established over a thousand years ago, with Europe's oldest black and Chinese populations, both of which predate Canada's existence as a country. Hell, Canada was part of the British Empire until 1931...Regardless of any knowledge or information they might bring or any other factors. Just on the basis of their country of birth.

Do you not see how discriminatory that sounds?

Not sure how population density comes into play but, ok, I've seen my mistake. The UK is just as multicultural as Canada and I shall give equal weightage to Scaff's and Noob's opinion.