Multiculturalism

[RacerPaul]

As I said, opinions. Just because you say multiculturalism works doesn't make it so

Anyhow, I probably shouldn't have joined this conversation. Most of those involved
tend to get a bit high-horsey when someone doesn't immediately and totally agree
with the basic premise

Not my intention to upset anyone, so just ignore me if you're getting angry or upset

Life is too short to get deeply invovled with heavy stuff on forums. You only have to
see the news to know that

 

[Scaff]

Indeed, I just wanted it spelled out. Ok, so you think I'm wrong about multiculturalism not working?

Opinions of course. Neither mine nor anyone else's can ever be proven to be 100% fact on this issue

My family is multicultural.

I'm white British with a family make up of Anglican, Jewish, English, Irish, American and Welsh, split between the south and far north of the country. My wife is Anglo-Indian, with her mother being from Madras and her father from Port Glasgow, they are Catholic. While I have CofE upbringing I am a firm atheist.

Now that's quite a wide mixture of cultures on its own, throw in a good mix of friends from an equally disparate set of backgrounds and a job that takes me around Europe, South Africa and the Middle East and it throws even more cultures into the mix.

Now that's more than enough multi in cultures as you could want, with at least two potential sectarian divisions straight out of the bag, yet it works and works well.

So please do go on an tell me why my multi-cultural family and life doesn't work?

Explain to me why an ex-Protestant atheist married a practicing catholic, one with a family background from a group that my cultural background was 'master' to, yet has managed to be married for two decades.

I'm rather intrigued to know how it hasn't worked?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Hmm, cryptic. I can see by your flag that English may not be your first
language, but could you have another go please?

See if I can get a clue what you mean

Thank you

He gave you everything you need to piece it together use some deductive reasoning and pop culture knowledge and you've got your answer. Whether that flag is from France or the Saturn moon Rhea most people go it. It's quite funny that you would quickly go on the defensive and claim his nationality was the cause of your lapse in knowledge, while at the same time just previously bashing multiculturalism.

I'd say what I feel the true issue here is, but then I don't want to be in hot water.

As I said, opinions. Just because you say multiculturalism works doesn't make it so

Anyhow, I probably shouldn't have joined this conversation. Most of those involved
tend to get a bit high-horsey when someone doesn't immediately and totally agree
with the basic premise

Not my intention to upset anyone, so just ignore me if you're getting angry or upset

Life is too short to get deeply invovled with heavy stuff on forums. You only have to
see the news to know that

Well a few questions, one what exactly is this "high horse" that people get on? Two more important to the topic, can you show how multiculturalism doesn't work or is failing nations and the world in general as we speed? It'd be fine if you disagree and can demonstrate you're subjective view point (as I don't expect you to agree with me), but to be loose lipped and just say "Multiculturalism is like Communism, good idea in concept but not so much in reality" (paraphrasing).

See that's a grand leap in assumption, you've mad no parallels to how this is even remotely so, and when challenged or pressed for more insight, you instead take issue with a joke that you didn't even understand in the first place. All to give you a reason not to explain. I mean if you didn't want to be cross argued, and you know people would do it (you say so yourself in the quote I just quoted), why did you join? Glutton for punishment, as you've depicted or what? Those being my final questions.

 

[LeMansAid]

Multiculturalism is a lot like Communism...

Great ideas in theory but the reality is sadly lacking

Neither work in the real world

Admittedly "work" is an arbitrary term, but you could have at least added a "generally" between "neither" and "work".

By the way, the script reads that now you need to say "Oh, so it's not ok to have an opinion?".

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Admittedly "work" is an arbitrary term, but you could have at least added a "generally" between "neither" and "work".

By the way, the script reads that now you need to say "Oh, so it's not ok to have an opinion?".

He more or less said that in his post after that. He's on script. You're just behind in the movie

 

[LeMansAid]

He more or less said that in his post after that. He's on script. You're just behind in the movie

Ah, maybe we're up to the "Can you guys stop tagging and quoting me?" bit then.

 

[RacerPaul]

You're all right, I didn't prepare a cogent argument to back up my rather clumsy entrance into this debate

Still haven't got one that'll stand intense scrutiny, so I'm going to slope off back to the gaming sections

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Ah, maybe we're up to the "Can you guys stop tagging and quoting me?" bit then.

You do realize you're on a forum right, sarcasm aside if a user comes in here putting their subjective viewpoint on the line to counter others or just to get the attention of others (which is what happens when you do this). Then they are fully up for being quoted and tagged, if they decide to answer the calls is up to them.

 

[FoolKiller]

You're all right, I didn't prepare a cogent argument to back up my rather clumsy entrance into this debate

Still haven't got one that'll stand intense scrutiny, so I'm going to slope off back to the gaming sections

There are cultures that only exist due to multiculturalism. That isn't to say some racism and prejudice doesn't exist, but ultimately that is the exception to the rule.

One example I would give is the United States. It was a founded as a melting pot of cultures. There is almost nothing cultural here that is uniquely American created. We have taken things from all over and altered or combined them. All you have to do to see multiculturalism at work is walk into an American office. White, black, Hispanic, east Asian, Muslim, Hindu, eastern and western European. I have even had coworkers from various African countries. Those businesses couldn't work without some kind of multiculturalism working.

We have bigotry too, but it is becoming less and less. Long gone are the days of crowds gathering to protest someone who looks different entering the same school that their kids attend.

 

[KSaiyu]

Multiculturalism is a lot like Communism...

Great ideas in theory but the reality is sadly lacking

Neither work in the real world

Interesting take. Here's mine

Being mixed race with Black and White/Asian ancestry, every encounter probably qualifies as a multicultural moment. I also live in a ward of London with one of the lowest proportions of White English among its constituents. And after almost 3 decades of living here I can say that multiculturalism has been a mixed bag of success and failures, but it has failed my community.

Perhaps a little backstory:

One part of my area has been known as ‘Little Asia’ for decades, owing to the large influx of South Asian migrants in the fifties (this has THE lowest proportion of White English in London). To the south lies ‘Little Mogadishu’, which is a more recent development and is named after the Somali immigration over the past few decades. Slightly east is a mix between predominantly Eastern European and muslim immigrants (from various arab nations + Pakistan). These are the three areas of my part of London, and I grew up more in the eastern area before and during the spike in immigration of the 2000s.

Back then there was more of a now increasingly forgotten population: the white working class. Most of my friends from primary school (who I still keep in touch with today) are from this group, and it is a group who would now make up a tiny fraction of the same primary school’s population. The high street was different too. There would be a line of bakeries, butchers, specialty stores and clothes stores, in what have been replaced by an endless line of greengrocers, halal butchers and Polish specialty stores. It’s foolish to put this down to immigration – the death of the high street is a multifactorial phenomenon and were this a white working class town the halal butchers would probably be gambling outlets – much a case of pick your poison. But something is odd about “our” transformation. Whilst ‘Little Asia’ became a tourist attraction that has brought celebrities such as Timbaland to visit its high street no such thing has happened with ‘Little Mogadishu’ and my eastern territory. Instead both areas have devolved to that much used phrase: they have become ghettos.

Take attitudes towards outsiders. Little Mogadishu is the only one of the three where if I happened to be Jewish I would not walk with a kippah on my head. To give a comparison I’d be more comfortable wearing a Pakistani shirt in Little Asia, and Indians and Pakistanis have a rivalry going back decades. And with ghettos comes an increase in crime: http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/sep/04/race.immigrationpolicy

So yes, multiculturalism has given us great things, but it has destroyed my community. Neighbours who would stop and say hi and have a quick talk have been replaced by people who don’t wave back, can’t hold a conversation and are immensely distrustful of men. I encounter more racism than ever, crime is terrible and people in roads closer and closer to my address are being arrested on terror charges.

Multiculturalism works, it just isn’t working quite so good at the moment.

EDIT: If you're interested in my area, you can see it featured in this documentary where a Sikh lady comes to the same conclusions after experiencing life with a Somalian man, a man who refused to take part in her charity event because he didn't want to be seen helping another religion (Islam vs Sikhism) instead preferring to provide help to other immigrants on how to claim benefits. Truly a religious man indeed.

 

[LeMansAid]

You do realize you're on a forum right, sarcasm aside if a user comes in here putting their subjective viewpoint on the line to counter others or just to get the attention of others (which is what happens when you do this). Then they are fully up for being quoted and tagged, if they decide to answer the calls is up to them.

All true, I just don't know why you would think that there was any disparity between your thoughts and mine on the subject. I was simply saying that it would be the next chapter in the script. We best not clog this thread up with any more of this though.

 

[KSaiyu]

So Immigration street...we had a young muslim Asian telling a Jamaican to go on a banana boat back home, mocking his accent and threatening him and a man (later hospitalised) who stood up for him with violence.

Where are the front page headlines and media outcry a la the Chelsea fans??

I couldn't help but laugh as perhaps a few people in Britain woke up to the fact that slowly but surely we are creating banlieues all over the place with our immigration policy. But I also felt sad as it was the first time my mum said she "is scared to live here now".

 

[FoolKiller]

So Immigration street...we had a young muslim Asian telling a Jamaican to go on a banana boat back home, mocking his accent and threatening him and a man (later hospitalised) who stood up for him with violence.

Where are the front page headlines and media outcry a la the Chelsea fans??

I couldn't help but laugh as perhaps a few people in Britain woke up to the fact that slowly but surely we are creating banlieues all over the place with our immigration policy. But I also felt sad as it was the first time my mum said she "is scared to live here now".

Yet, crime is the lowest it has been in over two decades.

I often wonder if people are more afraid of the media than any real, tangible threat.

 

[KSaiyu]

Yet, crime is the lowest it has been in over two decades.

I often wonder if people are more afraid of the media than any real, tangible threat.

Please watch the program (it's on Channel 4), we don't report these crimes as there is no point. (I've been a victim of threats twice - there's a reason we don't stand up to threats and that is simply because they come when the perpetrators are in groups).

The documentary makers themselves have shied away from the police

Quoting crime statistics for the whole of England and Wales is about as relevant as quoting Japan's crime statistics.

Here you go if you want a little about the current concerns of residents (from 2013)

-----

You may be wondering why I stay here if I keep banging on about multiculturalism and its effects here. The truth is the good balances it out at the moment. There are few places where I can laugh and joke with muslim girls whilst learning anatomy, or attend a talk by a muslim surgeon from one of the top teaching hospitals in the world. That being said I'm not naive. France is leaning towards voting Le Pen in and there is a growing divide between muslims and the rest over here. Europe is in danger of imploding in riots regardless of our involvement in the mid east and there are definite no-go parts to my neighbourhood. Findings such as this provide little comfort either:

More than a quarter of British Muslims feel some sympathy with the motives of the Charlie Hebdo killers, according to a poll.

The survey on behalf of BBC Radio 4’s Today programme found that 27 per cent felt they could sympathise with the motives of the gunmen who shot dead 12 people, including journalists and police officers, at a satirical magazine in Paris on January 7, compared to 62 per cent who could not.

Sympathy for the attackers was strongest among the young, at 30 per cent, and stronger in the Midlands than in the north or south.

The polling organisation ComRes questioned 1,000 UK Muslims in late January and early February on a range of political, cultural and faith issues.

 

[FoolKiller]

Please watch the program (it's on Channel 4),

I don't see anything that I don't hear in the US all the time.

we don't report these crimes as there is no point.

That makes it a bit hard for anyone to know you need help then.

(I've been a victim of threats twice - there's a reason we don't stand up to threats and that is simply because they come when the perpetrators are in groups).

The documentary makers themselves have shied away from the police

Quoting crime statistics for the whole of England and Wales is about as relevant as quoting Japan's crime statistics.

Here you go if you want a little about the current concerns of residents (from 2013)

Sorry. The best I can do is London, which looks the same, and Ealing is in the top ten boroughs for homicide, which is the only statistic I can find on that level. I'd ask you to maybe provide some actual data, but since, as you say, you don't report it I guess your word is all I have to go on.

So with that, I will agree with you that Ealing sounds like a complete slum full of crime and violence caused by racist bigots.

I have no clue exactly what your little pocket of the country has to do with England's multiculturalism, or multiculturalism as a whole, since, as you say, statistics from all of England are as relevant as statistics from Japan. Sounds like you live in a horrible neighborhood. Sorry about that.

It happens in other countries too. I have seen few clean themselves up, usually by the residents banding together against the bad elements and putting a lot of effort into fixing things. None have been fixed by a documentary or a change in any kind of government policy.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Multiculturalism is much, much more common than people who are actively against it, especially in nations like the UK or USA. I don't think multiculturalism is the problem....

 

[KSaiyu]

Of course this isn't a new phenomenon. What IS new is that it used to be the Sikhs and blacks (we have yardies living down the road), which were limited to gang violence/street crime. The new wave reflects the latest immigrants, which if it was only the Eastern Europeans would be restricted again to street crime.

The new, added dimension however is the threat of those from Islamic countries, which is where the similarities with the banlieues comes in. From this there is virtually no integration, a desire to overwhelm the area and then some (see Birmingham, Bradford and East London) and the possibility of terrorism (see the arrests or my ex's dealings with the Home Office in her role in a school in a large muslim area).

It is sad to see, if only because of the positives I outlined in my previous posts.

EDIT: If you want to look up further, please see what's happened to the politics in Bradford and East London, where respectively we have the caliphate of George Galloway and the ludicrous mafia dealings of Rahman.

I'll also bear in mind going to the Police in future, since you are right that it has to start somewhere.

 

[niky]

multiculturalism not working?

I'm late, and FoolKiller has mentioned it, already... but: "'Murica"

British-colonial, Dutch, Irish, German, Italian, Jewish, Chinese, African, Turkish, etcetera.

And we're only talking about New York.

That's the place where I, a Third Generation Japanese / Fourth Generation German Irish / Second Generation Filipino immigrant, was born.

Not that it was actually an easy transition for all involved. My mother and her siblings used to get rocks thrown at them in the street for being "dirty 🤬 (slang for Japanese)"

-

Multiculturalism can work, if all participants are willing to make it work. And the longer it goes on, the better integrated the cultures become. Even if they're Muslim.

Muslims are not quite the monolithic cultural bloc that outsiders think they are. (Speaking as an outsider, but with Muslim friends)... which is why, over time, they can be assimilated into a culture.

Eventually, some hardliners might attempt to retreat from multicultural society altogether (well... they already do), but if you want economic growth, insularity simply isn't the key.

In the end... ergo... they're only hurting themselves. Poverty and a lack of progress caused by insularism might prove an irritant for outsiders due to crime and radicalism, but they erode the foundations of an insular society, forcing members to leave to find greener and safer pastures. You'll have teething problems in these greener pastures, but it's arguable that taking in these refugees can only help eliminate the problem, by removing possible recruits from the cesspools that breed terrorists.

Yes, I realize that some of those recruits come from these safe havens, but uplifting populations minimizes their numbers to some extent.

As long as we don't label them "dirty 🤬 (slang for Japanese)" or "towelheads" or some other such nonsense while they're trying to dig their way out of the gutter. Just the fact that they're there means they're looking for change. So why don't we give it to them?

 

[KSaiyu]

It starts from everyone being treated equally, and that means confronting reality. In this country at the moment you can be arrested for quoting Churchill and I know that I have the unfair power to get a colleague reprimanded for labeling me by my colour even though I know it's in jest and actually easier (I'm one of two HCAs on the ward with the same name, so calling me that and the other HCA white is crude but effective. It's not discrimination as I know it's with no harmful intent - we started on the same day and I was invited to her wedding!). Yes I know there's a less PC way to differentiate us but blame it on me being a mechanic for my hankering for the old days of "casual racism" in the workplace - God I feel so dirty admitting that!.

Digging further on the history of my ward I found that my previous matron who wasn't fit for the job had been complaining of inherent racism in the trust along with the hapless Sister on the ward. Result? We had two senior members of staff leading a ward not on merit but on the threat of complaining of racial prejudice.

Political correctness has gone too far, and if we want multiculturalism to work it starts there.

 

[1241Penguin]

So I have a question - should signage that is written in a non-official language require signage that is written in an official language to be placed alongside it? Chinese-only signs in Richmond B.C. are causing a stir for not including either English or French, Canada's two official languages. Some say that it's exclusionary towards English or French speaking locals. What is the harm caused, if any, of foreign-language only signage? Should anything be done about it at all? If so, what should or can be done?

 

[KSaiyu]

I will say this for multiculturalism - it has a habit of hitting everyone hard equally.

For years people asked what would happen to the countries where trained and useful professionals, especially doctors and nurses that lost these commodities to 'enrich' the West. For years our governments didn't listen. Now Britain is facing a crisis as doctors train up in British medical schools only to leave the NHS for greener pastures before making it to the end of specialism/GP training.

Globalisation: a two way street.

 

[Carbonox]

What is the harm caused, if any, of foreign-language only signage?

How about the fact no one is going to understand the signs...

 

[KSaiyu]

How about the fact no one is going to understand the signs...

Quite.

If I choose to holiday in Canada I expect French/English signs. Similarly I expect signs in Chinese characters if I go to China. How exactly would I prepare for a visit to this area of Canada

 

[Johnnypenso]

I don't think these Chinese signs in BC are street signs are they? More like store signs, which isn't anything unusual here. Lots of them in every big or small city here. There are Arabic only signs in Windsor where I live for example. There are huge areas of Toronto where there are Chinese only signs and it's been that way for as long as I can remember. Not streets signs of course, but business signs.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/0...-limit-policy-english-language_n_2886882.html

 

[FoolKiller]

So I have a question - should signage that is written in a non-official language require signage that is written in an official language to be placed alongside it? Chinese-only signs in Richmond B.C. are causing a stir for not including either English or French, Canada's two official languages. Some say that it's exclusionary towards English or French speaking locals. What is the harm caused, if any, of foreign-language only signage? Should anything be done about it at all? If so, what should or can be done?

If they are official signs placed by the government then they should include the official language, unless there isn't one, like in the US.

However, if they are shopkeepers or just private citizens placing signs up for whatever reasons they have, then it is no big deal.

I will say this for multiculturalism - it has a habit of hitting everyone hard equally.

For years people asked what would happen to the countries where trained and useful professionals, especially doctors and nurses that lost these commodities to 'enrich' the West. For years our governments didn't listen. Now Britain is facing a crisis as doctors train up in British medical schools only to leave the NHS for greener pastures before making it to the end of specialism/GP training.

Globalisation: a two way street.

I think that has more to do with the NHS, and how it pays medical professionals, than any kind of multiculturalism. Multiculturalism allows doctors to make the move, but that isn't anything new in the last 20 years.

But if your doctors are fleeing, direct them to the US. We have a health workforce shortage crisis eminent because far more doctors are ready to retire than are coming out of medical school.

 

[Joel]

@1241Penguin Non issue for me. Owners of private property should be free to use their private property as they see fit. I'd be a pretty bad libertarian if I felt I should be allowed to restrict how someone uses private property because of what language their sign is in. If it means that a Chinese store owner uses Chinese signage that's their decision, and I can decide to go elsewhere if I don't like shopping at the store.

Same opinions as @FoolKiller on road signs. As far as I know there's not really an issue there, if I remember correctly the road signs in Chinatown in Toronto are also in English.

How about the fact no one is going to understand the signs...

BC has a large Chinese Canadian population, Richmond in particular is around 50% ethnically Chinese, most of whom speak Chinese.

Quite.

If I choose to holiday in Canada I expect French/English signs. Similarly I expect signs in Chinese characters if I go to China. How exactly would I prepare for a visit to this area of Canada

I guess the same way you'd prepare for a visit to parts of the Southern US where you might run into people speaking Spanish or Creole French. Not that it really matters but Richmond also isn't really a tourist destination, it's a suburb of Vancouver and there's not really much there for tourism.

This article says that of the ~1200 signs the city's issued permits for only 50 were only in a foreign language, the vast majority are in English and Chinese. The city encourages businesses to use both English and Chinese and in most cases they do. We're talking about a handful of stores that sell niche products, not banks and supermarkets.

 

[KSaiyu]

I don't think these Chinese signs in BC are street signs are they? More like store signs, which isn't anything unusual here. Lots of them in every big or small city here. There are Arabic only signs in Windsor where I live for example. There are huge areas of Toronto where there are Chinese only signs and it's been that way for as long as I can remember. Not streets signs of course, but business signs.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/0...-limit-policy-english-language_n_2886882.html

Wait if they're non-Government signs then this is a non-issue..
Sure it's not the most integrative thing to do but I wouldn't advocate forcing businesses to comply with dual language signs.

I think that has more to do with the NHS, and how it pays medical professionals, than any kind of multiculturalism. Multiculturalism allows doctors to make the move, but that isn't anything new in the last 20 years.

But if your doctors are fleeing, direct them to the US. We have a health workforce shortage crisis eminent because far more doctors are ready to retire than are coming out of medical school.

No it's not the fault of multiculturalism. And you'd be wrong in thinking it's a pay issue..

Our GPs (your Primary Care Physicians) are actually among the highest paid in the world. A decade ago the Labour Government, in all its infinite wisdom gave GPs the chance to opt out of 'Out of hours' work for only a 6% pay cut. The doctor's answer? Well let's just say the BMA's thought process (our Doctors union) summed it up pretty nicely:

GPs were so stunned by the terms offered to them when negotiating their new contract that they thought it was a "bit of a laugh", a doctor has said.

With bonus incentives a GP can add considerably to their basic pay, meaning their average salary is over the 100k mark. All for doing less work.

Yes people - the NHS is safe in Labour's hands!

So with this in mind, why are graduates not jumping into the easy life of being a GP. Aha! Now THIS is where multiculturalism plays a role, or rather our impossibly stupid immigration policy. To be fair immigration is like the infections as the socialist mentality of the NHS is to having HIV. That is to say doctors don't want to work for a socialist system, and the unmitigated disaster of open season immigration has tipped the scales to "screw this, I'm out before I even begin". Then of course there's the perception that being a GP is a failed career, so work has to be done to "sex up" the specialty. Australia, being a smart western country is wise to this, and openly advertises to our graduates with the promise of 'sun, less work, more money - and oh, we actually have a pretty nice community over here'. It's why we bleed Junior doctors to the land down under. As for America, you have to get board certified to practice there - and board exams are no joke.

Multiculturalism in Medicine? A disaster - and this is through from student level (teaching and peers), through employment (bullying, 'us and them' mentality) to consultancy (discrimination, unfair expectations).

It doesn't have to be like this. America is an example of how to do multiculturalism in Medicine. As it is over here, let's go through one example from my placement today:


A FMG (Foreign Medical Graduate) SHO (Senior House Officer, which is a grade just after being a junior doctor) walked out in the middle of a consultant ward round, had to ask the consultant to repeat her orders, lied about finding a JVP (Jugular Venous Pulse) and condensed information given to the team from this message from the Cardio Registrar:

"So Mr. X's pacemaker is fine to stay in. He is sinus tachy and the sinus pauses aren't something to be alarmed about due to his chest infection. The atrial arrythmias should be monitored and if you have to treat you can try Beta Blockers if his chest will tolerate it and if not then Amiodarone."

To:

"We can give Metoprolol (a beta blocker) or Amiodarone if we need to"

 

[Johnnypenso]

Wait if they're non-Government signs then this is a non-issue..
Sure it's not the most integrative thing to do but I wouldn't advocate forcing businesses to comply with dual language signs.

I only read one or two articles but it seemed to focus on only two people making complaints about retail signs. Might be more to it but it sounds like much ado about nothing. It's been commonplace since I was a kid in certain areas of town to have non-English signs for business.

Our GPs (your Primary Care Physicians) are actually the highest paid in the world. With bonus incentives a GP can add considerably to their basic pay, meaning their average salary is over the 100k mark.

A Canadian GP wouldn't get out of bed for $100k. Last time I checked they were averaging $CDN300k +. I'd guess some make well over $400k.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/01/22/canadian_doctors_made_307482_on_average.html

 

[KSaiyu]

A Canadian GP wouldn't get out of bed for $100k. Last time I checked they were averaging $CDN300k +. I'd guess some make well over $400k.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/01/22/canadian_doctors_made_307482_on_average.html

Thanks that should say "among". Fixed.

As you can see it's all about the work life balance. If you care about your patients you become frustrated with the system and how hand tied you are by it. A lot of doctors I know want more time with their patients but it's just an impossibility. Throw in the lack of graduates choosing general practice and you have a disaster in primary care that leads to a mess in secondary.

The country is soon going to realise the nhs is unsustainable, and we are only applying plasters to keep it looking pretty for politicians/the public.

 

[FoolKiller]

Wait if they're non-Government signs then this is a non-issue..
Sure it's not the most integrative thing to do but I wouldn't advocate forcing businesses to comply with dual language signs.


No it's not the fault of multiculturalism. And you'd be wrong in thinking it's a pay issue..

Our GPs (your Primary Care Physicians) are actually among the highest paid in the world. A decade ago the Labour Government, in all its infinite wisdom gave GPs the chance to opt out of 'Out of hours' work for only a 6% pay cut. The doctor's answer? Well let's just say the BMA's thought process (our Doctors union) summed it up pretty nicely:

GPs were so stunned by the terms offered to them when negotiating their new contract that they thought it was a "bit of a laugh", a doctor has said.

With bonus incentives a GP can add considerably to their basic pay, meaning their average salary is over the 100k mark. All for doing less work.

A Canadian GP wouldn't get out of bed for $100k. Last time I checked they were averaging $CDN300k +. I'd guess some make well over $400k.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/01/22/canadian_doctors_made_307482_on_average.html

Same here. Average Primary Care pay is $221k. Even converting pounds to dollars, it still doesn't compare.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/bruceja...o-221k-for-primary-care-396k-for-specialists/

So with this in mind, why are graduates not jumping into the easy life of being a GP. Aha! Now THIS is where multiculturalism plays a role, or rather our impossibly stupid immigration policy. To be fair immigration is like the infections as the socialist mentality of the NHS is to having HIV. That is to say doctors don't want to work for a socialist system, and the unmitigated disaster of open season immigration has tipped the scales to "screw this, I'm out before I even begin". Then of course there's the perception that being a GP is a failed career, so work has to be done to "sex up" the specialty. Australia, being a smart western country is wise to this, and openly advertises to our graduates with the promise of 'sun, less work, more money - and oh, we actually have a pretty nice community over here'. It's why we bleed Junior doctors to the land down under. As for America, you have to get board certified to practice there - and board exams are no joke.

You didn't explain how the immigration system and your medical community interact, you just said it is a joke. How so? I can't compare it to our J1 Visa system (a non-issue for naturalized immigrants) if I don't know how it works.

Multiculturalism in Medicine? A disaster - and this is through from student level (teaching and peers), through employment (bullying, 'us and them' mentality) to consultancy (discrimination, unfair expectations).

It doesn't have to be like this. America is an example of how to do multiculturalism in Medicine.

Not understanding how multiculturalism in medicine is bad if America is doing it right. I'm alive today because of doctors from India, Eastern Europe, Peru, Brazil, and Asia. One is even British. Some of my doctor's names: Elbl, Subchyk, Aboud, Kim, Prabhu.

As it is over here, let's go through one example from my placement today:


A FMG (Foreign Medical Graduate) SHO (Senior House Officer, which is a grade just after being a junior doctor) walked out in the middle of a consultant ward round, had to ask the consultant to repeat her orders, lied about finding a JVP (Jugular Venous Pulse) and condensed information given to the team from this message from the Cardio Registrar:

"So Mr. X's pacemaker is fine to stay in. He is sinus tachy and the sinus pauses aren't something to be alarmed about due to his chest infection. The atrial arrythmias should be monitored and if you have to treat you can try Beta Blockers if his chest will tolerate it and if not then Amiodarone."

To:

"We can give Metoprolol (a beta blocker) or Amiodarone if we need to"

While, I have to agree that this is a bad way to handle things and reduce notes, particularly as amiodarone can have some severe side effects (I take it and metoprolol) and it should not just be lumped in as an either or drug. This case should have been referred to the electrophysiologist. I assume the patient already was seeing one, as they have a pacemaker.

However, I don't see how this has to do with multiculturalism. A bad doctor is a bad doctor, no matter who they are. I was left paralyzed by a white American male. That's not evidence that white American males are bad doctors and having them be a large portion of our doctors is a bad thing. It just means that this one, very specific doctor will never touch me again. I have had trust and competency issues with doctors of all colors, ethnicity, and sex. The aforementioned British doctor (a white female) is one that I have come close to requesting I no longer be seen by because she lets the fellows do all the doctoring and then she makes her diagnosis based on their notes. She has literally walked in five minutes after I saw the fellow, stood and talked to me, suggested a medicine change, and never once picked up her stethoscope or touched me.

Basically, I don't see how being a Foreign Medical Graduate played a role in this person being a bad doctor. Nothing is connecting the two.

If you are trying to say you have bad doctors coming in to replace the good doctors who are heading out, this is the case anywhere that a potential health workforce shortage exists. You don't have enough doctors (for any reason) and you take whatever you can get, so long as they pass the minimum requirements. Here in Kentucky a national program offers to pay off student loans for doctors willing to relocate to rural areas. Of course, this draws in more doctors who are unable to compete in a large city. So, the rural areas where these doctors go are often left with a choice between no doctor and a subpar doctor. But our subpar doctors are as equally likely to be natural-born as they are to be foreign-born. In fact, if the foreign-born doctor is not a naturalized citizen and is just working on a J1 Visa Waiver (a work visa beyond the allotted amount, waived of the limitations due to need) the doctors are likely to be better because their status can be lost and it only takes one prejudiced person to file complaints that will get them investigated. They have to be impeccable to avoid problems.


Or as my aunt puts it, "pretty good for an Indian doctor."