Need For Speed Heat - General Discussion

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ProStreet I can understand (which I also must point out was massively underrated, but I suppose the move to legal racing caught everyone off-guard at the time), but if Undercover was based on new tech, BlackBox did such a poor job of making it distinctive from earlier games. The main problem UC had was reusing too many assets; car models, autosculpt and even some areas of the map were far too familiar to the likes of MW and Carbon.
Honestly aside from the graphics and enhanced damage model it didn’t really seem like Blackbox handled the generational leap too well compared to other racing game devs at the time.

Not really their fault though as they were under immense pressure to bring out a game each year when they probably knew Undercover would take at least 2 years to make. It’s amazing Prostreet was as good as it was considering it was basically a filler title until they rushed through Undercover.
 
And honestly what is the big deal about microtransactions if they aren't required to progress through the game? I managed to nearly 100% Payback without buying a single loot pack. Is it because we don't feel like working for our performance upgrades?

You are aware of how the so-called "AAA" industry works nowadays right? The relentless, unsustainable pursuit of short term growth by publishers like EA means that MTs will happen regardless of what the devs want. Titles that rely on an in-game economy nowadays get squeezed so hard in terms of what players earn in order to push MTs on to them.

Ignoring MTs is not going to stop them from being there in the background, teasing and mocking you as you struggle to grind through on mediocre earnings. People seem to forget the psychological manipulation tactics being used by "AAA" publishers now in order to get people to spend more money on a game they already paid $60 for.

Now the tactic of trying to push through MTs after launch to skirt around the initial media attention has been getting brought to light recently. Scummy publishers like EA don't want some money, they want all your money. Ignoring the problem is not going to solve anything.
 
You are aware of how the so-called "AAA" industry works nowadays right?
Oh I'm well aware, thank you. I don't think microtransactions are as bad as people make them out to be. Yes, part of it does stem from greedy developers, which EA definitely is. Although I feel like most of it stems from people just being too lazy to work for their goals. I thought the whole point of playing a video game was to get immersed in it and to have fun actually progressing through it? And I'm definitely not ignoring microtransactions, because they are definitely a double-edged sword.
 
You are aware of how the so-called "AAA" industry works nowadays right? The relentless, unsustainable pursuit of short term growth by publishers like EA means that MTs will happen regardless of what the devs want. Titles that rely on an in-game economy nowadays get squeezed so hard in terms of what players earn in order to push MTs on to them.

Ignoring MTs is not going to stop them from being there in the background, teasing and mocking you as you struggle to grind through on mediocre earnings. People seem to forget the psychological manipulation tactics being used by "AAA" publishers now in order to get people to spend more money on a game they already paid $60 for.

Now the tactic of trying to push through MTs after launch to skirt around the initial media attention has been getting brought to light recently. Scummy publishers like EA don't want some money, they want all your money. Ignoring the problem is not going to solve anything.
That may be the case but as far as I’m aware no NFS has been plagued but MT’s as badly as other AAA titles. Payback had them sure, but the events paid out quite generously provided you put in the effort to do the races with the main issue being a lack of variety in these events.

Let’s not forget that Ghost themselves said that there will be NO micro transactions at launch in Heat and they have no plans to add them afterward. Does that stop EA giving in to their asshat shareholders and forcing Ghost to add them? Of course not but that’s just something we’ll have to wait until release to find out.

Not exactly Ghosts fault if that happens either as I imagine they’re pretty much at the mercy of EA when it comes to any decisions that are made in regard to NFS.
 
You are aware of how the so-called "AAA" industry works nowadays right? The relentless, unsustainable pursuit of short term growth by publishers like EA means that MTs will happen regardless of what the devs want. Titles that rely on an in-game economy nowadays get squeezed so hard in terms of what players earn in order to push MTs on to them.

Ignoring MTs is not going to stop them from being there in the background, teasing and mocking you as you struggle to grind through on mediocre earnings. People seem to forget the psychological manipulation tactics being used by "AAA" publishers now in order to get people to spend more money on a game they already paid $60 for.

Now the tactic of trying to push through MTs after launch to skirt around the initial media attention has been getting brought to light recently. Scummy publishers like EA don't want some money, they want all your money. Ignoring the problem is not going to solve anything.
There is a simple solution to avoid implementation of MTX or loot-boxes in any future game... don't buy them. Not the game.. the MTX. Oh,yeah. Ignoring it doesn't solve the problem... actually it does. If nobody buy them they will eventually stop paying for those services.
Why some of you guys feel the need to fight those scummy publishers when you really only need to ignore those implementations.
But I understand, when you stand out of the crowd and point your fingers you kind of look like the good guy. Oh, it's not that? If we don't fight them today, tomorrow we will need to pay for everything.. Is this another conspiracy theory?
Sorry for this post..... Maybe I am just tired of all the EA this and EA that. I play games for fun and I really don't care for the company policy.
 
Black Box reused a lot of facilities and assets from MW2005 all the way to Undercover, to the point of Tri-City Bay having portions of the map that look eerily similar to Rockport.
If you're talking about the PS2 version of Undercover, that was effectively a reskin of Carbon made under a different studio.

The PC/X360/PS3 version has more in common with Prostreet than any of the older BB titles.

I may be wrong in this but wasn’t it basically the same engine from UG1-Pro Street (or Carbon at the very least)
Carbon->Prostreet was the largest change between games, yes.

It is technically derivatives of the same engine from Hot Pursuit 2-Undercover. However, they did make considerable changes to the point that each title is at least noticeably different. They were always updating something or making some kind of quality-of-life improvement.

Meanwhile, Payback is virtually the same game as 2015. Probably the most extensive changes that can think of is the vehicle class/upgrade system and the day/night cycle. Heat at least looks like they went a bit further in changing things up but it's still evidently based around 2015/PB assets.
 
It is technically derivatives of the same engine from Hot Pursuit 2-Undercover. However, they did make considerable changes to the point that each title is at least noticeably different. They were always updating something or making some kind of quality-of-life improvement.
Personally I’d say there wasn’t any reallynoticeable improvements from MW-Carbon that I can recall, certainly not as much as there was 15-Payback and honestly playing the games back to back they don’t feel that different IMO aside from Prostreet and Undercover, definitely not as different as 2015-Payback feels.

Honestly I’d say Autosculpt and Canyon runs aside Carbon was essentially the same game as NFSMW
 
Personally I’d say there wasn’t any really noticeable improvements from MW-Carbon that I can recall
Carbon is effectively a giant QoL patch for MW.

New renderer, new shaders, a new paint system, a new minimap and vinyl system because someone realized that having thousands of unnecessary textures was a terrible idea, a slightly improved event system, and actual optimization so the game doesn't freak out when there's more than four cars on-screen.

certainly not as much as there was 15-Payback
There's daytime, the map isn't constantly wet, and you play slots for upgrades. That's about it.
 
There's daytime, the map isn't constantly wet, and you play slots for upgrades. That's about it.
There’s a hell of a lot more than that. New race types, better car handling, cops that aren’t completely incompetent, more visual customisation for more cars, dynamic time, ability to race off Road, better car management, a story, a performance rating system, better and more varied multiplayer mode and that’s just off the top of my head.
 
New race types
Racing is the same, drifting has a target score instead of opponents, drag is simplified, and pursuits have fixed paths. Very new indeed.

better car handling
Identical physics to 2015. They disabled the scandinavian flick mechanic but otherwise never bothered to fix anything.

cops that aren’t completely incompetent
Identical to 2015, they just have fast cars for once. To their credit, the cop AI itself isn't even bad, but it was never utilized well in that game.

better car management
It's the exact same system as 2015, but with unlimited warehouse slots.

Not a whole lot going on here that's actually new. A different game in terms of direction and style, sure, but the sins of 2015 still lie underneath it all and I would like to see those gone. Heat is at least doing a little more to differentiate itself and improve upon things but it's still not quite the refresh I'm looking for. Hopefully they go back to the drawing board with the next game.
 
Racing is the same, drifting has a target score instead of opponents, drag is simplified, and pursuits have fixed paths. Very new indeed.
He is talking about race types and you have it. Missions and racing drag cars, even police crates.. just to name a few.
Identical physics to 2015. They disabled the scandinavian flick mechanic but otherwise never bothered to fix anything.
Play again and say that handling is not better in Payback. Also off-road, drag, drift and race cars felt different to eachother. Yeah better handling.
Identical to 2015, they just have fast cars for once. To their credit, the cop AI itself isn't even bad, but it was never utilized well in that game.
In Payback cops chase after you. In 2015 you had to chase after them. So again he is right.
It's the exact same system as 2015, but with unlimited warehouse slots.
So upgrade, tune a car, make a livery and then store it is exactly the same as delete it? Ok!
Not a whole lot going on here that's actually new.
Let's just forget about dynamic time, proper open world, off-roading, car classes, stance tuning and even cards upgrading with perks... definitely not a whole lot. Just some minor insignificant stuff... For real? But... Carbon had a new minimap!:cheers:
 
He is talking about race types and you have it. Missions and racing drag cars, even police crates.. just to name a few.
Except none of these are actually new. Some of the modes were modified a bit but there’s actually less event types then there were in 2015.

Play again and say that handling is not better in Payback. Also off-road, drag, drift and race cars felt different to eachother. Yeah better handling.
A polished turd is still a turd.

In Payback cops chase after you. In 2015 you had to chase after them. So again he is right.
I am referring to the basic functionality of the cops. Whether or not their effective is a different matter.

So upgrade, tune a car, make a livery and then store it is exactly the same as delete it? Ok!
What exactly are even saying here?

Let's just forget about dynamic time, proper open world, off-roading, car classes, stance tuning and even cards upgrading with perks... definitely not a whole lot. Just some minor insignificant stuff... For real? But... Carbon had a new minimap!:cheers:
Dynamic time seems pointless to mention considering that 2015’s night time was an intentional design choice. Off-roading isn’t exactly reinventing the wheel, car classes are literally just a single config file with some modifiers, stance tuning is literally the same except for the removal of track width, and I already mentioned the speed card system earlier.

My whole point was that the basic construction of Payback is nearly the same as 2015. What they decide to do with their gameplay design is a completely different matter and not what I was focused on at all.
 
Carbon is effectively a giant QoL patch for MW.

New renderer, new shaders, a new paint system, a new minimap and vinyl system because someone realized that having thousands of unnecessary textures was a terrible idea, a slightly improved event system, and actual optimization so the game doesn't freak out when there's more than four cars on-screen.

Optimisation is definitely isn’t a thing in Carbon for the PC build, the game has random crashes everywhere. Every loading screen potentially end with a crash and it was annoying as hell at that time. It doesn’t crash as much with current PC.

I didn’t even know there was a new renderer for it but it sure looks worse than Most Wanted. The events are largely the same as the game before but with added drift and the canyon races is a sprint race with new point counting system. The cops in Carbon was more annoying too, it pops out of thin air when you about to escape.

The game was also launched with 2 cars that can never be unlocked, the Porsche 911 Turbo and Infinity G35. You need a trainer or mods just to access those 2 cars, it is something that they never fix it. Also cars that are locked behind MP was a thing in Carbon too.

Whatever upgrades they have wasn’t much, pretty much like what 2015 to Payback has.
 
Except none of these are actually new.
Are we talking about differences between the two games or new stuff to the series because I was sure it was the firs.
but there’s actually less event types then there were in 2015.
Can you please elaborate or just give some examples?
A polished turd is still a turd.
So we agree it is better.
I am referring to the basic functionality of the cops. Whether or not their effective is a different matter.
Ok, so we agree on this subject too... Cops are better in Payback.
What exactly are even saying here?
In Payback you can just put the car in the store to make room while in 2015 you have to delete a car. So again better car management.
Dynamic time seems pointless to mention considering that 2015’s night time was an intentional design choice.
Again I was responding to your claims that there where not significant changes between 2015 and Payback. If you think that those are not significant changes and should not count then I guess we don't have to discuss it further since apparently I am talking to a madman.
 
In Payback you can just put the car in the store to make room while in 2015 you have to delete a car. So again better car management.

Actually this is semi-patched in 2015, there is a store room that gives additional 5 slot like in Payback before you bought every garage.
 
Actually this is semi-patched in 2015, there is a store room that gives additional 5 slot like in Payback before you bought every garage.
I didn't talk about the number of slots available. I was talking about extra space. In 2015 you still need to delete the car with all upgrades and liveries to make extra space while in Payback you just have to store it and it's always available for use. That makes a huge improvement to the car management.
 
I didn't talk about the number of slots available. I was talking about extra space. In 2015 you still need to delete the car with all upgrades and liveries to make extra space while in Payback you just have to store it and it's always available for use. That makes a huge improvement to the car management.

You need to delete/sell the car if you ran out of the 10 slots, the improvement they did on Payback is just removing the slot limit.

I remember Payback starts with a pretty small storage space garage (10 cars i think) but once you got all of the garage it became unlimited slot.
 
Identical physics to 2015. They disabled the scandinavian flick mechanic but otherwise never bothered to fix anything.
They are not identical at all. 2015 was borderline impossible at times due to the handling making most races a lot harder than they needed to be due to crabwalking being a major issue and the roads being too narrow. Both things that were fixed for the most part in Payback (I think there’s just a few drift cars that still suffer from it from time to time)

Identical to 2015, they just have fast cars for once. To their credit, the cop AI itself isn't even bad, but it was never utilized well in that game.
No, the cops in 2015 are completely useless. You have to drive at a snails pace just so they can keep up, even a stock 240Z can outrun them, and even when they do keep up they are so incompetent, to the point where they take themselves out running over their own spikes.

Meanwhile in Payback they can keep up with anything while driving the same Crown Vic they used in 2015 and do a much better job of actually being a threat to the player.

I could easily say the stuff you’re saying about Black Box games, in fact I’d argue some games had a few downgrades such as the complete removal of Drift events and watering down of visual and performance customisation in Most Wanted.
 
Optimisation is definitely isn’t a thing in Carbon for the PC build
Was thinking more in relative terms. It still runs like garbage, but not as unstable as MW was. Stuff like Race Wars would never be possible in that game.

Are we talking about differences between the two games or new stuff to the series because I was sure it was the firs.
I'm talking about more fundamental changes to the game's mechanics, not small tweaks or add-ons.

So we agree it is better.
I never said the handling wasn't better. I just said that it's the exact same physics as 2015.

Ok, so we agree on this subject too... Cops are better in Payback.
Ditto with the previous point. Fundamentally the same, but utilized better.

Isn't it fascinating how small changes can make such a huge improvement? :)
It's still the same clunky system though. Honestly I think they should streamline the process of switching cars a bit but I highly doubt they've done so with Heat.

Again I was responding to your claims that there where not significant changes between 2015 and Payback. If you think that those are not significant changes and should not count then I guess we don't have to discuss it further since apparently I am talking to a madman.
I don't think it's significant because it isn't something that wasn't already possible. 2015 taking place at night was intended aesthetic choice for that game. It's not something that would've been a restriction or had any impact on Payback at all, unlike other aspects of the game that I've discussed.

They are not identical at all.
They are. They've tweaked the individual car settings, yes, but it's still the same physics underneath everything and the same bugs from 2015 still exist. Crabwalking is still a thing and has been mentioned previously in this thread before.

No, the cops in 2015 are completely useless. You have to drive at a snails pace just so they can keep up, even a stock 240Z can outrun them, and even when they do keep up they are so incompetent, to the point where they take themselves out running over their own spikes.
Nothing that changing some numbers wouldn't fix, which is exactly what Payback did.

I could easily say the stuff you’re saying about Black Box games
UG2: Actual free roam, don't think I need to explain how complicated something like this can be. Otherwise pretty similar to UG1.
MW: complete graphics overhaul on X360, new vehicle assets, some new world assets, updated physics, cops
Carbon: an actual livery editor, autosculpt, reworked drift physics, an entire crew system that they never quite finished, too many graphical changes to conveniently list, new system for vehicle sounds. Basically just MW05 but better.
Prostreet: Entirely new tire and aerodynamic physics model, vehicle damage, new vehicle and world assets, updated customization, I could go on.
Undercover: slightly updated pursuit system and cop ai, modified prostreet physics, new shaders/materials. Otherwise not terribly different from PS.

As I said, larger updates roughly every two years. Payback doesn't really have too many major changes going on. Heat is looking slightly better, but still draws pretty heavily from 2015's bad habits.
 
As I said, larger updates roughly every two years. Payback doesn't really have too many major changes going on.
This is just completely false. If there was no major changes from 2015 to Payback then no one would’ve bought it because honestly 2015 had some of the worst physics and story of any NFS game which they fixed for Payback.

Fixing the awful handling and adding OFF ROAD physics takes a lot more than just “tweaking individual car settings”

To say that there were no major changes from 2015 to Payback and to also argue that an updated minimap is a significant change for Carbon is just blatant fanboyism for the Black Box titles
 
This is just completely false. If there was no major changes from 2015 to Payback then no one would’ve bought it because honestly 2015 had some of the worst physics and story of any NFS game which they fixed for Payback.

Fixing the awful handling and adding OFF ROAD physics takes a lot more than just “tweaking individual car settings”
Except that's exactly what they did. Disable some stuff in the drift component, change some numbers, and you have Payback's band-aid fixed handling. The only new thing I can recall seeing is that they added a component for the fake drag car wheelies.

To say that there were no major changes from 2015 to Payback and to also argue that an updated minimap is a significant change for Carbon is just blatant fanboyism for the Black Box titles
Way to cherry-pick arguments. I only mentioned the minimap because they did something similar with what they were doing with the vinyls: eliminating redundant textures so the game has less crap that it needs to load. It's not that significant, just something that came to mind.
 
I'm talking about more fundamental changes to the game's mechanics, not small tweaks or add-ons.
I keep hearing it, but are you aware how hard it is to interpret what you actually mean? They need to redo everything from scratch? Again? What is wrong with improving things already available? Under the surface all games are going to look the same. You buy a car, you customize it and then you do some racing.
 
I reckon this image shows Ghost has finally nailed the night time aesthetic in Heat; it's not too dark and the neon lights bring the environment to life.


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Nothing that changing some numbers wouldn't fix

As someone who works in a relevant industry, using that phrase towards any Software Developer certainly wouldn't win you their respect. I suppose the graphical difference above is just a case of "changing some numbers" too? Even incremental changes go through a lot of trial and error stages to get to the desired stage, to simplify the process to changing numbers completely undermines the work done.
 
NO micro transactions at launch
Emphasis on bold.

There is a simple solution to avoid implementation of MTX or loot-boxes in any future game... don't buy them. Not the game.. the MTX. Oh,yeah. Ignoring it doesn't solve the problem... actually it does. If nobody buy them they will eventually stop paying for those services.
Why some of you guys feel the need to fight those scummy publishers when you really only need to ignore those implementations.
But I understand, when you stand out of the crowd and point your fingers you kind of look like the good guy. Oh, it's not that? If we don't fight them today, tomorrow we will need to pay for everything.. Is this another conspiracy theory?
Sorry for this post..... Maybe I am just tired of all the EA this and EA that. I play games for fun and I really don't care for the company policy.
Because it's designed not for people like you, but for whales. And yes, that very small percentage makes up the majority of MTX revenues

You may say its easy but for them with all sorts of sunk cost fallacies its difficult.
 
I keep hearing it, but are you aware how hard it is to interpret what you actually mean?
Perhaps, considering that no one seems to understand what I'm asking.

They need to redo everything from scratch? Again? What is wrong with improving things already available?
Last time they did this was about 4 and a half years ago. If I wanted to be pedantic, I could go back even further to Rivals. Obviously it would be impractical to rebuild everything, but I do think it's time for some much needed updates.

Under the surface all games are going to look the same. You buy a car, you customize it and then you do some racing.
I never asked for this to change. I just want them to rethink how they do these things.

The physics have been broken since 2015. The garage system is inconvenient and clearly a byproduct of 2015's five-car limitation. The customization interface is a bit clunky and annoying to use at times (I was hoping this was fixed after trying out Heat Studio, but it still looks to be the same in the regular game), the wrap editor is an absolute pile that's unintuitive to use and desperately missing features like grouping, mapping for vinyls has been messed up since 2015. Cops have a solid basis at least, but are a little too cheaty.

As someone who works in a relevant industry, using that phrase towards any Software Developer certainly wouldn't win you their respect.
I am well aware that I am simplifying the process heavily, but the point I was making still stands.
 
Because it's designed not for people like you, but for whales. And yes, that very small percentage makes up the majority of MTX revenues

You may say its easy but for them with all sorts of sunk cost fallacies its difficult.
I read about it in the past. I am fully aware that a small percentage of players will have problems and are going to spend money regardless. But I am also confident to say that regular players who just buy the game and don't spend additional money still make the vast majority of revenue. Do you really think they will try to force MTX and risk losing us even after the backslash from Star Wars and Battlefield? If we don't buy games from them who will suffer the most, developers or publishers? I fully understand it's not that simple... but then it really is. Buy the games and support the developers, don't buy MTX and don't support the publishers. I still believe is the most effective way to stop them.
 

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