New and Upcoming Cars

[Option2]

Mistubishi is bringing the Evo to the US Market in '03. It's a REAL Evo too, not a watered down Evo.

This is the first time that I'm really, really tempted to buy a NEW car. With the new Evo coming, and the new 350Z.

 

[Hooligan]

Originally posted by Option2
Mistubishi is bringing the Evo to the US Market in '03. It's a REAL Evo too, not a watered down Evo.

Well, yes, but late 2003, and you can be sure it'll be the 230HP version well before the "true" EVO, along with no active differentials and a softer ride. This is, after all, the US we're talking about. Everything has to be engineered to a price. If Mitsubishi wants to compete with Subaru directly, they have to find ways to cut the cost. Subaru already did that; Mits is behind the game, and you can be sure that the truly awesome, distinctive features like AYC will be the first to go.

This is the first time that I'm really, really tempted to buy a NEW car. With the new Evo coming, and the new 350Z.

There's a horde of great new cars coming out this year and next. Performance cars have been going through a neat little rennaissance since last year. Like Tank said, "Hhn! It's a very exciting time!"

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by Hooligan

There's a horde of great new cars coming out this year and next. Performance cars have been going through a neat little rennaissance since last year. Like Tank said, "Hhn! It's a very exciting time!"

I really can't wait for the Volkswagen Touareg, Porsche Cayenne, and Volkswagen Phaeton. I really want to see how those do.

I really, really want to see how the new Saab 9-3 does. They're finally abandoning the hatchback! What monsters! That's a Saab trademark!

 

[f50]

hey i was looking for some info about new cars and i found this.
(note) cortesy of road and track.

In whatever shape or form the Mitsubishi Evolution VIII comes in, we'll be prepared to counter it. So yes, you can assume that we're saving the STi brand for that chore. And I'm sure Mitsubishi is already prepared to counter our STi effort. It's a chess match between them and us in Japan currently, and the case will be no different in the States," he said.

I received a small sampling of what Subaru may have in store to counter the Evo VIII. It's called the S202 STi, and it's one of the fastest 4-doors on the planet today. STi built only 400 of them and within two weeks, without any advertising, all were spoken for.

The S202 is powered by a 2.0-liter flat-4 that produces 320 bhp at 6400 rpm, a figure that tops the anticipated 275 bhp of the Evo VIII. You can expect 0-to-60-mph times to be well under the 5-second mark. I had a chance to drive the S202 on a winding mountain road about two hours outside of Tokyo. Here, the S202 performed admirably. As soon as you step on the throttle, all four tires bite the tarmac, squirting the car forward. When the revs reach 3000, the car finds its true stride, surging forward with alacrity, slamming your torso into the seatback.

The handling components of the S202 are equally impressive. Lowered and fitted with stiffer springs and shocks, the understeering character of the stock WRX has been all but eliminated. The steering is quick and razor sharp, and the car remains neutral through virtually all types of turns. Stickier tires also account for the car's excellent cornering ability.

The S202 will not be marketed in the U.S., but it's safe to assume that we'll see something like it late next year or sooner. But then, that all depends on the potency of Mitsubishi's Evo VIII. — Sam Mitani

cortesy of road and track.

 

[Hooligan]

Originally posted by f50
hey i was looking for some info about new cars and i found this.
(note) cortesy of road and track
[...]

There's various versions of all Japanese performance cars in Japan: WRX STi Type-RA, Type-B, Type-C; EVO 6 Tommi Makinen, EVO 6 RS, RS Sprint, RS Extreme; Skyline GT-R, GT-R V-Spec, V-Spec II...it's a long list from every model, each trying to leapfrog the other, all of them awesome examples of modern machinery.

But, uh, I'll have the S202 please...with extra tires.

 

[f50]

they claim is one of fastest sedan in the world.

 

[Option2]

When is Audi gonna grow some balls and ship the S4 to the US?


I'm still a Mitsubishi lover and would take an Evo over a WRX even if it meant giving up a few hp (or 40).

WRX's are some mean sounding machines though. Nice booming, mechanical snarl, as opposed to Lancer's baratone howl.

I'll still take my 350z in red, please.

 

[Hooligan]

Originally posted by Option2
When is Audi gonna grow some balls and ship the S4 to the US?

Um, what? Have you seen this lately:
http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/audi/
or even this:
http://www.edmunds.com/used/1992/audi/s4/index.html?id=lin0678
S4 (since 1992), S4 Avant (since 2000), S6, S6 Avant, S8 (all since 2001), RS6 (next year).... So just what is it like in the cave you've apparently been hiding in? There's even the old Quattro Sport's available here...somewhere...if you're lucky enough to find one.

I'm still a Mitsubishi lover and would take an Evo over a WRX even if it meant giving up a few hp (or 40).

It probably will, but it will also mean giving up AYC, the true EVO harsh ride, and some other things I'm sure Mitz can think of to chop off. And then, after two or three straight years of sold-out pseudo-EVO's, they may actually tick off WRX STi owners and bring the real EVO to the States, AYC, 280HP and all.

 

[Hooligan]

Birmingham Show:

MG X80:
http://www.pistonheads.com/shows/birmingham2002/index.asp?storyId=5630
The updates are okay. An improvement, no doubt; a cleaner design, almost reminiscent of the new SL500. As long as it looks like this in production, I can forgive the Ford V8. Even better, I can forsee the Ford V8 eventually being passed up for a better, and more lucrative, BMW 5.0L M5 V8.

Peugot Sesame:
http://www.pistonheads.com/shows/bi...m/shows/birmingham2002/index.asp?storyId=5620
I said it before, and I'll say it again: Get this car, an used RX-7, and make up your own engine swap kit. "Mini 911" it isn't...not without a serious powerplant shoved up its butt.

VW Touareg:
http://www.pistonheads.com/shows/birmingham2002/
No, that link isn't to the review of the Touareg. It's just to the main Birmingham Show page. But look at the link for the Touareg. Right name, right chassis, wrong division of VAG.

 

[Hooligan]

Birmingham Show:

Still waiting on this TVR T350, but until then:

MG X80:
http://www.pistonheads.com/shows/birmingham2002/index.asp?storyId=5630
The updates are okay. An improvement, no doubt; a cleaner design, almost reminiscent of the new SL500. As long as it looks like this in production, I can forgive the Ford V8. Even better, I can forsee the Ford V8 eventually being passed up for a better, and more lucrative -- and why not: heavily tuned -- BMW 5.0L M5 V8.

Peugot Sesame:
http://www.pistonheads.com/shows/birmingham2002/index.asp?storyId=5631
Never has a name been more appropriate.... This I would expect from Japan or Citroen, not Peugot.

Smart Roadster:
http://www.pistonheads.com/shows/birmingham2002/index.asp?storyId=5620
I said it before, and I'll say it again: Get this car, an used RX-7, and make up your own engine swap kit. "Mini 911" it isn't...not without a serious powerplant shoved up its butt.

VW Touareg:
http://www.pistonheads.com/shows/birmingham2002/
No, that link isn't to the review of the Touareg. It's just to the main Birmingham Show page. But look at the link for the Touareg. Right name, right chassis, wrong division of VAG.

Speaking of atrocities:

Jaguar DIESEL:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/front_...xpress.co.uk/news/evo_news_story.php?id=30726
Oh, the horror.... It's now official: Jaguar is no longer Jaguar. It is Ford.

 

[Option2]

Hmm....when I was car shoping little over a year ago, I went to the Audi/Porsche dealership in Woodland Hills and looked around at some A4's...asked them if they had S4's... "we can't get'em" was the reply I got, and since I have NEVER seen an S4 on the road (in Los Angeles and San Diego no less), I assumed they didn't sell it here. I guess the search continues then.

 

[alex_gt]

ah yes for once I'll be able to get up close to all the new cars in the NEC Arena

 

[Hooligan]

Originally posted by Option2
[...]
asked them if they had S4's... "we can't get'em" was the reply I got, and since I have NEVER seen an S4 on the road (in Los Angeles and San Diego no less), I assumed they didn't sell it here. I guess the search continues then.

Oh, it's here, alright. Check out http://www.s-cars.org/. They should be able to help you find one. And they do seem to be more popular on the East coast than out West. The AWD being of more interest in areas where the weather actually turns sour. I actually looked for one, too, but briefly. There was one in the showroom, but it was owned by one of the salesmen, and new ones (all of 2) were more than 6 months away.

 

[Hooligan]

More Birmingham Show:

Porsche Carrera GT:
http://80.85.68.105/gallery/gallery.cgi?50L
Can this thing get here already? I want to see this new MR2^H^H^HPorsche.

Ford Focus RS:
http://80.85.68.105/gallery/gallery.cgi?03L
Is this coming to the US? I'm sure I could find space for this somewhere.... It would be the first Ford family product I'd ever own, and would probably be the last unless they release the Cosworth edition. (Well, okay, I'm a sucker for the new SVT Mustang, but that's a whole other can of worms.) I'm not looking forward to the reported torque steer, though.

Alfa Romeo 147 GTA:
http://www.4car.co.uk/jsp/zoom.jsp?target=birmingham/bmalfa.jpg
Need I remind anyone of just how many great cars aren't making it across the Atlantic (or Pacific)? Is it insurance companies holding things up? Inane (i.e., not well-designed) crash test failures? Do Ford & GM have the car marketplace really locked up, keeping us from discovering just how lousy the American auto market really is? I swear, soon as I'm able, I'm setting up a second residence in the UK, just to have a stable of real cars.

 

[Option2]

Originally posted by Hooligan


The AWD being of more interest in areas where the weather actually turns sour.

no ****. I know A LOT of DSMer's from the east coast, Rhode Island, Maine, Virgina, Mass, and Penn specifically... Hell, 80% of www.dsmtalk.com or dsm.org are from the east coast. DSM=Eclipse (well, Diamond Star Motors...includes Galant VR-4 and a couple other cars too).


I'm dissapointed that I didn't keep pressing to find an S4. Getting ready to buy another car within a year anyways, glad to hear that the S4 is actually available.

 

[Hooligan]

Aren't web forums neat? You can just blaaaab and blaaab....

Honda Civic Type-S
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/front_...xpress.co.uk/news/evo_news_story.php?id=30740
"Girly-car" is right. This is probably a 5-door Civic Si, only for Europe. As if that car needed any more weight. I thought the whole idea of an Si was to lighten it at least somewhat, and add some power, while the Type-S designation was for more power but with more "luxury" (as in the RSX Type-S). I could be wrong. It is, after all, just Honda. At least I won't have to see this POS.

Mini Roadster
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/front_...xpress.co.uk/news/evo_news_story.php?id=30791
It could be worse: New Beetle Convertible. But given that the Mini is a far superior platform, this may actually be okay. The squarish dimensions may result in a significant drop in cornering ability (or a flat out loose chassis), but it should still end up better than most.

Noble M12 "Series"
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/front_...xpress.co.uk/news/evo_news_story.php?id=30802
A M12 GTC (targa, 340HP (up 30HP)), M12 GTO-R (new engine, output unspecified), and M12 GTO 3T (weird name; 400HP!). Lee Noble is one cool guy. I hope this is a sign he's doing well financially, and will soon do well enough to branch out overseas (i.e., to the US). By that time, I may actually be able to afford one. They seem like truly awesome cars. Not way-out-there styling, comfortable enough, predictable handling (from what I hear), and yet another example of a company doing wonders with Ford engines -- the perfect case of a silk purse from a sow's ear.

Ford GT40
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/front_...xpress.co.uk/news/evo_news_story.php?id=30802
Only 3 will be made next year, all for show, I'm sure. Then to be followed by 1,000/year starting in 2004. At $140K, I don't think Ford will find as many buyers as in the '60s (and even that was a short list). They may be able to beat Ferrari in engine output and in price, but I have serious doubts about how Ford can go from the torque-steery Focus RS and powerful-with-a-crap-interior SVT Mustang to this GT40 remake. I predict less than half being sold. From the first year. And then no more after that. And I have heard this rumour about Camilo Pardo having his Xerox privleges revoked or something....

 

[1X83Z]

Pfft, all of those cars are too weird for me.

Find a picture of the new 5-series.

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

Ford is finally dropping the ancient (Escort) ZX2 next year.
Same goes with the oversized Excursion.
Ford will also drop the regular cab body on their F-150 pickup in favor with a innovative access doors, which it will be half smaller than the standard access-cab, and this will not be equped with windows unlike the reg, access cab.

Toyota has been testing a 2005 Toyota Tundra, and heres something new, a four full size doors.

 

[Talentless]

3 gt40s in 03 at under 150k 100 annually starting in 04

 

[Talentless]

direct link isn't working

NOBLE - 3 NEW MODELS Wednesday 16th October



More choice for buyers with convertible, luxury model and racer

Noble Moy Automotive - manufacturers of the M12 GTO - are gearing up for a busy Motor Show with news of 3 new variants of the M12.

Already a huge success, the M12 is to be enhanced with the introduction of the M12 GTC convertible, the M12 GTO-3R and the GTO-3T.

The convertible is said to share the same simple but effective lines of the existing GTO but allowing for roof off action, making those summer blasts all the more fun.

The M12 GTO-3R will use the new 3.0 litre 340bhp engine with an uprated twin stainless steel exhaust system. An LSD is to be provided as standard along with uprated suspension. Inside full leather will be standard and additional sound proofing will be provided. Outside the new car will be set apart by 3 piece alloy wheels and a twin headlamp system. It will be available from Spring 2003 priced at £51,500.

The final variant, the M12 GTO-3T is targeted at those seeking a no compromise track car. The M12 is already an incredible competent circuit car but the 3T is for those drivers who are happy to forgo any form of luxury in the pursuit of the perfect track experience. The interior is stripped out and trimmed with the minumum of lightweight materials and fitted with a plumbed in fire extinguisher system and six point harnesses. The bodywork features carbon fibre noes, tail and doors reducing weight still further.

The 3 litre 24v V6 fitted to the 3T is uprated still further to produce 400bhp. Enhancements include forged pistons, steel crank and rods, ball bearing turbos and a dry sump. It's coupled to a six speed straight cut sequential box and LSD. Huge 12x18 (r) and 11x18 (f) inch wheels will provide the visual drama.

Priced at £65-68,000 the GTO-3T is sure to become a serious contender for GT racing. Available in limited numbers in 2003, we wouldn't be surprised to see the first customers racing their cars alongside TVRs in the British GT Championship.

Pistonheads

 

[Hooligan]

Originally posted by Talentless
direct link isn't working

NOBLE - 3 NEW MODELS Wednesday 16th October
[...]

LATE!


Porsche GT:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/front_...xpress.co.uk/news/evo_news_story.php?id=30854
Neat. Now Porsche is trying to play catch-up with someone not even in the same market. Or are they? I'm not sure. The old Bentley is not a competitor, but the new Bentley GT Coupe is right in 911 GT2 territory...but just barely. So now Porsche has taken it upon itself to -- rather than be incestous like Audi/VW -- commit attempted fratricide. Oh, sure, this V10 monster will be one of the many greatest things since Pepperidge Farm Soft Baked Cookies, but really, was it needed? Why is Porsche feel the need to branch out beyond the pure sports coupe segment when it had it so tightly locked up for so long? Why, especially since profits are up 71%? Why the luxury SUV? Why the soon-to-be-seen 4-door coupe? I get improvements on the 911, or even a replacement. I totally get the Boxster. I'd even understand a "baby 911". But is it that VAG is having more influence, being aware of the fattest profit margin since Microsoft circa 1997? A cash cow, for sure. But let's not kill the golden goose. Beware what's happened to Jaguar: a 2.0L diesel FF sedan is now available for sale in Europe:
http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/csp/new/53526720020715.html

Would anyone in their right mind take Jaguar seriously as a GT/Uber-luxury company? I sure don't, at least not in the long run. Ford should have sided with Wolfgang Reitzle. Early in the Ford-owns-Jaguar years, Jag's were still Jag's. But first came the S-Type, and it wasn't bad even though it was really a Lincoln LS (analogy: Cayenne/Touareg). And now here's the lineup for the X-Type, courtesy of the Mondeo.

So maybe I'm getting carried away with the downgrading of Porsche. They're not exactly moving downmarket with a 650HP super-GT. But they are losing focus. Focus is what Dr. Ferdinand Porsche had to create the myth of Porsche cars. Methinks he's spinning in his grave like the TCS is turned off....

 

[Talentless]

ok.

 

[vat_man]

Just on the Cayenne - I was astounded to hear the launch price of it in Australia - the price will put it at around the price of a new Boxster. Great - how many of THESE things am I going to be stuck behind in traffic?!?

Brand dilution - thy name is Cayenne...

 

[Hooligan]

Originally posted by Talentless
ok.

Sorry. I actually like ranting and getting all bent out of shape. Let's me vent and stuff.

 

[Hooligan]

Okay, so here's [late] my go on the SSX:

Holden SSX:
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=5668
Honestly, it's about time Holden did AWD. After all the tires lost to lead-footed gas pedals, you'd think they might have come up with some way to distribute the power. But it's here and I miss it already...because I don't live in Austrialia. The concept is awesome on paper, but in print (i.e., the images) show way too much "Fast & the Furious" boy-racer BS: the hatch rear (with those heinous Altezza taillights, it reminds me of Civic hatches), the ridiculous choice of color, and the over-done wheels which could in no way stand up to serious work if there's a true Holden V8 in there. The pokey little center-twin exhaust is also more Honda then Holden, but this is, after all, just a prototype. I like Holden's intentions; I hate their absence in the US.

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by Hooligan

So now Porsche has taken it upon itself to -- rather than be incestous like Audi/VW -- commit attempted fratricide. Oh, sure, this V10 monster will be one of the many greatest things since Pepperidge Farm Soft Baked Cookies, but really, was it needed? Why is Porsche feel the need to branch out beyond the pure sports coupe segment when it had it so tightly locked up for so long? Why, especially since profits are up 71%? Why the luxury SUV? Why the soon-to-be-seen 4-door coupe? I get improvements on the 911, or even a replacement. I totally get the Boxster. I'd even understand a "baby 911". But is it that VAG is having more influence, being aware of the fattest profit margin since Microsoft circa 1997? A cash cow, for sure.

Hooligan, ease up off Porsche! They're merely trying to grow (with much help from Volkswagen)!! I hope you don't get on Saab the way you're getting on Porsche when Saab enters the sport sedan and luxury SUV market (I have no idea if Saab will ever enter these markets, at least seriously, but I believe they could make quite a bit of money that way).

I'm anxious to see how Bernd Pietirojsdoj (yes, I did just hit keys on the keyboard) runs Volkswagen, especially after how it's been run in the last ten years (really well). I hope Pieoejotej doesn't really screw up everything that's been built.

Beware what's happened to Jaguar: a 2.0L diesel FF sedan is now available for sale in Europe:
http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/csp/new/53526720020715.html

Would anyone in their right mind take Jaguar seriously as a GT/Uber-luxury company? I sure don't, at least not in the long run. Ford should have sided with Wolfgang Reitzle. Early in the Ford-owns-Jaguar years, Jag's were still Jag's. But first came the S-Type, and it wasn't bad even though it was really a Lincoln LS (analogy: Cayenne/Touareg). And now here's the lineup for the X-Type, courtesy of the Mondeo.

So maybe I'm getting carried away with the downgrading of Porsche. They're not exactly moving downmarket with a 650HP super-GT. But they are losing focus. Focus is what Dr. Ferdinand Porsche had to create the myth of Porsche cars. Methinks he's spinning in his grave like the TCS is turned off....

Jaguar badly, badly needed Ford money and a vehicle like the X-Type. Unfortunately, Jaguar badly, badly needed a vehicle different from the X-Type. Ford screwed up. Once again I go back to the fact that only one company has been able to get near the 3-series in sales, and that's Audi, because Audi did it right...

If Ford wants Jag to sell a 3-series, they'd better let Jag do the engineering, though Jag does need the money to expand.

 

[vat_man]

My big concern with the Cayenne is that, and this is without knowing the prices internationally, it seems to be a natural progression for X5 and M-Class buyers.

This is all very well and good - if you sold Range Rovers.

If, however, you had 16 Le Mans wins since 1970, and a sports car history that other manufacturers aspire to, and a certain mystique that had seen every front engine car you've ever produced disappear into obscurity, I would contend that the last thing you would want your badge on is a large 4WD station wagon.

What will your purist market, sitting behind the wheel of a GT3, think when he drives down a trendy street, and can not see ahead, because he can not see over the top of Cayennes?

Or, worse still, Cayennes, mixing with VW Touaregs?

 

[vat_man]

Originally posted by Hooligan
Okay, so here's [late] my go on the SSX:
Honestly, it's about time Holden did AWD.
EDIT
but in print (i.e., the images) show way too much "Fast & the Furious" boy-racer BS: the hatch rear (with those heinous Altezza taillights, it reminds me of Civic hatches),
EDIT
I like Holden's intentions; I hate their absence in the US.

With GM's stake in Fuji Heavy Industries, Subaru have been helping them out with research into AWD - good example being the Subaru Traviq, basically an AWD Opel Zafira.

This is a natural progression for the Australian market. You see, all the makers here have realised they are 'niche' players, since the domestic market is small, manufacturers here are adept at small volume niche models. The Falcon and Commodore are great examples - too big for Europe and Asia, too small for the US - but there is a niche demand for them.

AWD is a great example of a niche feature - Subaru have managed to find a lovely little niche for themselves, and living as I do with an AWD car, I understand the attraction. Subaru do very well with this feature here - so it would be a natural extension for the local producers to follow.

The SSX is an interesting concept. Leaving aside the concept car 'frippery' that Hooligan so eloquently described that is used to sell the concept. what we have here is a large, very powerful AWD five door hatchback. I personally find this quite appealing. I wouldn't buy it with a 5.7 litre V8, because I can't afford fuel for such an engine, but a 3 to 3.5 litre V6 (with OHC - is this too much to ask Holden?!?) might tempt me.

I also find it interesting that Holden chose to show it in a full-on AWD set-up - as in a centre diff, feeding into open diffs at front and rear - ala WRX. Not even my humble Liberty/Legacy RX gets front and rears (god help me if I was going fast enough to notice the difference) - they could have done a Honda and put an AWD 'on-demand' in there.

This is an interesting development - and quite a promising one.

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by vat_man


What will your purist market, sitting behind the wheel of a GT3, think when he drives down a trendy street, and can not see ahead, because he can not see over the top of Cayennes?

I think they'll be the first in line to own a Cayenne.

What did you think when the X5 came out? Did you see it as BMW ruining their reputation?

 

[Hooligan]

Originally posted by M5Power
Hooligan, ease up off Porsche! They're merely trying to grow (with much help from Volkswagen)!! I hope you don't get on Saab the way you're getting on Porsche when Saab enters the sport sedan and luxury SUV market (I have no idea if Saab will ever enter these markets, at least seriously, but I believe they could make quite a bit of money that way).[/B]

Yeah, I know. I just really hate the Cayenne, and the last time Porsche tried branching out too far (968, I think), it started a long, downward trend, ending up with their dismal sales in the early 1990's. So what did they do? They simplified: the 911 and a 550 remake (the Boxster). And once again all was good in Stuttgart....

I'm anxious to see how Bernd Pietirojsdoj (yes, I did just hit keys on the keyboard) runs Volkswagen, especially after how it's been run in the last ten years (really well). I hope Pieoejotej doesn't really screw up everything that's been built.

Pischetsrieder (yes, I did just hit keys on the keyboard until the proper Google search came up ). I think he'll be fine. I disagree with him disagreeing with Piech's desire to split VAG, but that may happen any way. Piech is now rumoured to head Porsche with Bentley being brought along for the ride. The Carrera GT and Bentley Coupe are too close not to be sold alongside each other (according to Piech...and I agree there, too). But as for Pischetsrieder, he has a good head on his shoulders about bringing all brands of VAG up one level in the market (even Skoda).

Jaguar badly, badly needed Ford money and a vehicle like the X-Type. Unfortunately, Jaguar badly, badly needed a vehicle different from the X-Type. Ford screwed up. Once again I go back to the fact that only one company has been able to get near the 3-series in sales, and that's Audi, because Audi did it right...

I knew there had to be some logical explanation for the X's existence. Come to think of it, if Ford wanted a quick fix, the Mondeo probably wasn't a bad starting place. But they should have left it as a holdover only, until Jaguar could come up with something far better. Like I always say, "Learn from VAG": Volvo S60 chassis , Mondeo suspension & other mechanicals, and a nice Volvo T6. Even AWD is a available (via the already good S60-R). Howzzat?