New Penalty System killed the "racing" in GTS

[Finflash]

Easy to overtake for smurfs or scared high ranks using alternative accounts. The rest of the field should be on their personal limit.

Maybe the thread and others should be changed to penalty system ruins it for the DR S drivers then? How many are there world wide?

And as has been mentioned many times this patch could be a way for PD to realign the ranks as they want them. S ranks just got a difficulty buff. It will be interesting to see when the next patch arrives, because if they keep it like this that must have been their intentions.

I mean overtaking in lower ranks with no smurfs around. People are lapping more inconsistently in lower classes naturally, you don't nail your corners that consistently if you're lapping over 5sec slower than average A driver for example. I've been there too when starting the game.

Keeping DR A/S SR S is still not a problem at all and that's not what the complaints are for. Penalties are good to have and I'm not against of those. Just few adjustments needed as this takes one step in wrong direction regarding actual racing.

Voodoovaj:

I think if you move over to gain yourself advantage is racing as the poster tried to point out. You may find that slipstream is useful to save fuel or just generally not battling it out to make sure others won't catch you.

 

[Spurgy 777]

The FIA F1500 GT race was kinda messy. I only had 5 minutes to practice and basically learned how to drive the car during qualifying (safely away from everyone else!). Yet do the penalties make it a better race?


0:50 Tapped from behind, 2 sec
1:14 Rubbed on the inside while slowing down for the car in front of me, 1 sec
4:10 Over steering evading car taking grass shortcut, 3.5 sec
4:14 Getting knocked into wall by car bouncing of other wall, 4 sec
7:46 Car on the outside cutting in too much, hitting my left rear at the apex, 2 sec
9:00 Car trying to dive through my inside after he went wide, 4 sec
10:40 I hit a car braking very early, 3 sec my fault.
10:46 Hit on inside rear panel in corner, 1 sec

I think 10:40 was your fault and maybe 9:00 but the rest or the penalties were stupid and definitely undeserved.

 

[Alfabob46]

Letting faster cars pass you is absolutely not racing. That's why back markers are told to pull over. They are not supposed to "race" the leaders. However, when it's for position, if you let someone by you, you are not racing. Hence the term "racing for position". I have never heard of any racers, in any series, ever, get rewarded by his team for being a nice guy and letting faster racers past.

If you feel that it is still racing, then we should turn off collisions and lap as ghosts.

Everyone needs to earn their finishing position. That's why they have races. If this were NOT the case, the race would end after the qualifying session. If someone gets a run on you or is faster in one section of the track, that doesn't mean they are deserving of your position.

Rubens Barichello got Pole position in the '94 Belgian GP because he went out at the end of a rain session and had a dry track. He said to reporters that he woudl move over and let the faster drivers pass. His teammate, Eddie Irvine, and the Jordan team rightfully pulled him aside and told him that he would in no way, shape, or form, pull over for anyone! He was the pole sitter and he earned his position. Everyone else needed to earn there's

His mindset is what got him the seat at Ferrari. They wanted someone fast who would not race Michael Schumacher.

Remind me how many F1 World Championships Rubens Barichello has.

Michael Schumacher never moved over for anyone! How many titles did he get?

Did you read the paragraph after or only get as far as what you quoted?
As I explained why and how this helps me earn my finish position maybe my wording is making my explanation hard to understand.
I'll upload a video to show what I mean.
I still fight I just pick my battles a bit smarter now.

 

[xturboloverx]

Should be fixed now, reverted to private when I had to verify my you tube account.

Racing as DR.B is a bit better. I got hit in T1, no penalty, still pushed out and spun around so now I was all the way at the back behind people that didn't know the braking points. So got a penalty for hitting a car braking in a weird spot. Got hit again from behind later on, no penalty. It looked like it was a car getting punted by the car behind him. Still lost 9 SR on that race for those 3 contacts even though it didn't show SR down for the first and last.

Then a clean race, then I get hit again and punted off the road with 16 SR loss. Less penalties in DR.B, SR hits are the same in SR.S. Penalty amount depends in DR level, SR loss depends on SR level. I guess I should qualify better to get away from the punters.

Sounds a lot like my experience now-I will race from now on without caring for DR A or higher, as this (for me) seems to take the fun out of racing... Thank you for sharing your imressions!

Conclusion: Racing still exists in DR B!

 

[UGA95]

Letting faster cars pass you is absolutely not racing. That's why back markers are told to pull over. They are not supposed to "race" the leaders. However, when it's for position, if you let someone by you, you are not racing. Hence the term "racing for position". I have never heard of any racers, in any series, ever, get rewarded by his team for being a nice guy and letting faster racers past.

How much racing have you actually watched? This kinda stuff happens all the time. Varying strategies, different tire compounds and/or laps on a set of tires, and simply not wanting to push the issue early on in a long race are all reasons I have seen drivers/teams do this.

 

[John Crellin]

Letting faster cars pass you is absolutely not racing.

I had a guy let me by on the last lap of a race oon a corner that he absolutely did not have to let me pass him. He then stuck to me for the whole lap and waited until the final straight to slingshot past me in my slip stream for the win. Risky, but he won...

 

[Voodoovaj]

Did you read the paragraph after or only get as far as what you quoted?
As I explained why and how this helps me earn my finish position maybe my wording is making my explanation hard to understand.
I'll upload a video to show what I mean.
I still fight I just pick my battles a bit smarter now.

I answered the question you asked.

How much racing have you actually watched? This kinda stuff happens all the time. Varying strategies, different tire compounds and/or laps on a set of tires, and simply not wanting to push the issue early on in a long race are all reasons I have seen drivers/teams do this.

I've been watching various forms of racing for over 40 years.

I have heard teams tell drivers to let others by because they aren't racing them. I have never heard or seen someone willingly give up a position that they had the means to fight for.

I had a guy let me by on the last lap of a race oon a corner that he absolutely did not have to let me pass him. He then stuck to me for the whole lap and waited until the final straight to slingshot past me in my slip stream for the win. Risky, but he won...

Well, by what you describe, it sounds like he was the faster driver. No risk, no reward.

 

[John Crellin]

Well we were both battling all race and I put up the FL. He took advantage of the slipstream strength knowing interlagos has long straights. He won cleanly so you are correct he was the faster driver.

But really any track with long straights leap frogging with another driver is hugely entertaining and very fast strategy. You can pull away from the other behind you and solidify your position

Not to mention the respect you get from another driver when you let them pass cleanly and then overtake them later. More often than not they will see you do this and try extra hard to be clean in return. Makes the best racing imo

 

[UGA95]

I have heard teams tell drivers to let others by because they aren't racing them. I have never heard or seen someone willingly give up a position that they had the means to fight for.

I don't know what to tell you then. It happens all the time. If you've ever watched NASCAR it happens on a weekly basis and you can sometimes even see the driver in front wave his hand out the window to the driver behind signaling him to go to the inside on the next corner to make the pass. Holding someone up in a lot of cases serves little purpose and is only going to slow the both of you down, and make the guy behind you frustrated. Especially if it's lap 8 of a 200 lap race or 30 minutes in to a 6 hour endurance.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

This is what racing is now. First he wants to block me and take the line. Then he gets scared of getting a penalty I guess, me as well. So we're both slowing way down for the corner, after you, no after you, I insist after you.


And here this one either drives bad and gets lucky, or is manipulating the penalty system

First he dive bombs while I'm careful to keep my distance from the car in front. I see him coming and wait for him to pass. Then he practically brake checks me braking way early and takes a free short cut giving me the penalty time for it... The lag didn't help me see his brake lights in time. When a 3 bar connection suddenly brakes it's like dropping an anchor.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I don't know what to tell you then. It happens all the time. If you've ever watched NASCAR it happens on a weekly basis and you can sometimes even see the driver in front wave his hand out the window to the driver behind signaling him to go to the inside on the next corner to make the pass. Holding someone up in a lot of cases serves little purpose and is only going to slow the both of you down, and make the guy behind you frustrated. Especially if it's lap 8 of a 200 lap race or 30 minutes in to a 6 hour endurance.

We're racing 4-10 laps. Maybe 15-16 in the FIA. These are sprint races.

3 hour NASCAR races and 6-24 hours endurance races have their "races" happen later in the event. No one is really racing for position on the first lap one of any race. It's the whole "you can't win the race in the first corner" thing.

If it's lap 3 of 4, I'm not letting faster drivers by. They can set up a pass and earn it.

 

[kjeldsen]

I mean overtaking in lower ranks with no smurfs around. People are lapping more inconsistently in lower classes naturally, you don't nail your corners that consistently if you're lapping over 5sec slower than average A driver for example. I've been there too when starting the game.

Keeping DR A/S SR S is still not a problem at all and that's not what the complaints are for. Penalties are good to have and I'm not against of those. Just few adjustments needed as this takes one step in wrong direction regarding actual racing.

What you are saying (i guess) is that mistakes happen more often for slow inexperienced players, to which i agree. I disagree on the actual racing, there is plenty of racing to be had without rubbing and pushing being essential

 

[Voodoovaj]

What you are saying (i guess) is that mistakes happen more often for slow inexperienced players, to which i agree. I disagree on the actual racing, there is plenty of racing to be had without rubbing and pushing being essential

Absolutely mistakes in line, braking , and acceleration happen more when there's inexperienced drivers.

I don't know if you go to track days, but the beginner and intermediate groups are often the worst, intermediate more so. The beginners slow down WAAAY too soon for corners so you go far off line into braking zones and brake normally to pass them. Intermediate, or as my friends like to say "inter-idiot" is often filled with folks who THINK they are fast, but they are making mistakes everywhere.

I have always maintained that the number of truly dirty drivers is FAR FAR lower than everyone believes. Rather, it's inexperience on both ends that cause 99% of the problems. Most rear end collisions are intentional IMHO. They comes from someone thinking they can go "just that much" deeper into a braking zone.

 

[UGA95]

We're racing 4-10 laps. Maybe 15-16 in the FIA. These are sprint races.

If we're talking about GT Sport then I can agree to an extent, but you made it pretty clear that letting faster cars pass is not racing and you used real world examples to try to back up your point. You did not say you were talking about GT Sport. Quite the opposite, actually.

3 hour NASCAR races and 6-24 hours endurance races have their "races" happen later in the event. No one is really racing for position on the first lap one of any race. It's the whole "you can't win the race in the first corner" thing.

Right, so, how exactly have you never seen a driver give up a position in 40 years of watching racing? When I said "not wanting to push the issue early on in a long race" was a reason for a driver/team to concede a position, you said you've never seen a driver do that.

I gotta be honest I'm struggling to keep up with your mental gymnastics.

 

[_ApexPredator]

Maybe it is just the wording that you're getting caught up on, Voodoovaj? I think the suggestion is that it can be optimal to your own race to not defend a position overly hard early on in a race. That might sound like giving up a position, or not racing, but it isn't; it'splaying the long game and racing your own race - it's still very much racing.

 

[Alfabob46]

Letting faster cars pass you is absolutely not racing.

What I have being trying to say should be put into context,
I agree with you in the most part as letting everyone that is faster by with no exception or not attempt to maintain position is not racing I agree 100%
But you need to pick your battles and that is the point I was trying to make and probably not making it very well.
If you try and block and hold your position with no exception it not going to end well, my experience has showed me and if you look at some of the videos being posted about how bad this penalty system is, in reality the overtakes weren't really on in the first place it's hot heads pushing and forcing a move where they shouldn't.
I was trying to explain my thoughts on how to approach this penalty system and still have good close races.
Anyway this is a video of me putting this mentality into action and RACING ( or at least I think it is).
This grid is 70% DR A and 30% DR S all SR S.
You may recognise some of the names as I think a couple of them at least are pretty fast if not Alien=TX3DAYRONE.



I put some captions in to try and make it a bit more interesting and share some of my thoughts

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Here's another example of how ridiculous the penalty system is

I got 9 SR points deducted for that. The car that first pushes me off road, then dive bombs, then crashes into me, nothing.

 

[BSDShoes]

We're racing 4-10 laps. Maybe 15-16 in the FIA. These are sprint races.

3 hour NASCAR races and 6-24 hours endurance races have their "races" happen later in the event. No one is really racing for position on the first lap one of any race. It's the whole "you can't win the race in the first corner" thing.

If it's lap 3 of 4, I'm not letting faster drivers by. They can set up a pass and earn it.

Yup, problem with GTS online is 1st lap (usually first corner) everyone tries to shove their way through as quickly as possible.

Here's another example of how ridiculous the penalty system is

I got 9 SR points deducted for that. The car that first pushes me off road, then dive bombs, then crashes into me, nothing.

That kind of stuff is what PD needs to be seeing to why we're complaining.

 

[kjeldsen]

Here's another example of how ridiculous the penalty system is

I got 9 SR points deducted for that. The car that first pushes me off road, then dive bombs, then crashes into me, nothing.

Interesting video, if you notice the radar, on every contact he is ahead of you, if the system isn't sophisticated enough he has the right of the way and you are at fault.

In order to judge you from the games perspective, the game should be aware that the other car just cut a corner (possible) and that car should have a negative rating attached (for the cutting) for x seconds so that any accident it causes would take that into account.

You car is neutral, when he hits you you are on the racing line, that should be a positive for you, but since he is ahead of you he has the right of way, but with his negative attribute at least that should even things out. Same goes for next incident, the game already had the other car marked negative, when he goes off again, he gets another minus, and when he hits you he should have a penalty, be ghosted and you should be free to go.

Absolutely mistakes in line, braking , and acceleration happen more when there's inexperienced drivers.

I don't know if you go to track days, but the beginner and intermediate groups are often the worst, intermediate more so. The beginners slow down WAAAY too soon for corners so you go far off line into braking zones and brake normally to pass them. Intermediate, or as my friends like to say "inter-idiot" is often filled with folks who THINK they are fast, but they are making mistakes everywhere.

I have always maintained that the number of truly dirty drivers is FAR FAR lower than everyone believes. Rather, it's inexperience on both ends that cause 99% of the problems. Most rear end collisions are intentional IMHO. They comes from someone thinking they can go "just that much" deeper into a braking zone.

But that is why we have DR ranks, it shouldn't be possible for drivers to be that bad when they are above C, i race mostly C and D, and they are plenty good to keep it clean, even if slow.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Interesting video, if you notice the radar, on every contact he is ahead of you, if the system isn't sophisticated enough he has the right of the way and you are at fault.

In order to judge you from the games perspective, the game should be aware that the other car just cut a corner (possible) and that car should have a negative rating attached (for the cutting) for x seconds so that any accident it causes would take that into account.

You car is neutral, when he hits you you are on the racing line, that should be a positive for you, but since he is ahead of you he has the right of way, but with his negative attribute at least that should even things out. Same goes for next incident, the game already had the other car marked negative, when he goes off again, he gets another minus, and when he hits you he should have a penalty, be ghosted and you should be free to go.
.

Good solution, that would solve irresponsible track re-entries giving the wrong people penalties. The same needs to be applied when you get punted into the car in front of you.

Interesting situation today racing on Nurb. SR 99 seems to be an excuse for driving dirty. I get a clean streak of 3, then get bumped down from 99 again by getting hit from behind and crashed into like in that video. Last race even had someone serving a penalty in the apex of the hairpin. Though the race before I got hit from behind in the final chicane (which people still cut and dive bomb) yet I kept the clean race bonus. SR was deducted however, white S, so it cost 5 SR for the hit from behind.

And again, clean streak broken by car hitting me from behind. I wandered back into DR.A so I got a 4 sec penalty for it as well. Time for a break, quit a few races maybe to get back to DR.B. Not fun with A/S drivers.

 

[Voodoovaj]

But that is why we have DR ranks, it shouldn't be possible for drivers to be that bad when they are above C, i race mostly C and D, and they are plenty good to keep it clean, even if slow.

But since the game prioritizes SR over DR, you can end up with some very low ranked B's in the race, If an A or an S get's punted, and that B driver finishes ahead, that's a pretty good haul even though he may not be that skilled.

The priority should be on the DR and the SR should simply be a limiting factor on your DR. That would make for much better matchmaking and far fewer altercations of any kind.

 

[oamoShotya]

The issue is getting penalties for incredibly light contact and worst of all when that contact isn't remotely your fault. The amount of contact we're getting penalised for would be of no concern to a real life driver as it wouldn't cause any damage, especially not enough damage to worry them, and it definitely wouldn't be enough contact to get a penalty.

I do question if you actually even know any racing drivers because for the most part we don't particularly care about the risk of contact when we're racing, small mistakes that result in minor contact aren't likely to affect us, and it normally requires a fairly major 🤬 up for you to cause serious damage. Even then the main concern for most drivers is not finishing the race, as a lot of racing drivers aren't concerned about the money (the driver isn't usually the one paying for it and the cost of crash damage is relatively small compared to the cost to go racing in the first place) and there isn't a whole lot of risk in being hurt either as cars these days are incredibly safe and even 100mph+ crashes you can usually walk away from unharmed.

I'm all for strict penalties but only if the game can properly assign blame and only if there is actually something that warrants a penalty. As it is right now the game is penalising you for contact so minor you barely feel it, and more importantly it doesn't assign blame anymore so you get penalised for things that aren't even your fault.

You also have to remember this is a game and not real life, which means we shouldn't have to put up with things that we do IRL, i.e. having your car wrecked by someone else's mistakes. IRL this can't be avoided because cars aren't indestructible but there's no reason a game can't be designed to minimise the loss to people who aren't at fault and penalise those who are.

Take a look at the video linked below, it's some examples from yesterdays Nations Cup race of the "awesome" penalty system. Incidents 1 and 3 gave me a 2 second penalty each despite there being basically no contact at all (the first one the contact wasn't even on my screen but on the other players due to lag). The second incident gave me a 6 second penalty and although IRL it would have put me out of the race through no fault of my own but as I said, this is a game where we can set our own rules, so why should we still have to penalise the drivers who aren't at fault?

OK, just climbed your wall of text here

I dont know any real racing drivers, but what i am referring mostly to is Formula 1 and endurance races that I am watching now and then. I honestly dont have extended knowledge, but it seems to me that the cars are made of egg shells IRL and even the smallest bumps in each other means 5 min + pit time where half the car have to be switched out for new parts. Especially in formula 1 and LMP cars where every inch of the car is especially made for downforce and balancing and every pice of carbon has a function. Hey, it can be that i am pooping on my own leg here, but it seems to me that most racing games really struggles to find the balance between ''realism'' and what is practical for a game. And what is the best solution? I really dont think PD can make everyone happy either way.

Yo, thank you for schooling me sensei! Sorry for arriving drunk to class

 

[adstomko]

Problems with the new system need to be immediately addressed.
One of the concepts I love about racing is defending, because I enjoy making it as hard as possible (but fair) for the driver behind to overtake. New system reminds me of introducing a rule in football where defenders cannot tackle, but jockey with the opposing player - it ruins the art of defending.
Bottom line: If you're ranked S/S, just consider FIA races on circuits which you could perhaps achieve sixth or higher in qualifying. Otherwise, don't bother. A lot of the fun factor has been lost.
Lost 5000 in DR points since the update, haven't raced much either.

 

[Matty28]

Put your hands up if you wanted Jan Magnussen and Johnny Adam to both (or even worse, just one of them) slam on the brakes to get rid of a 5 second penalty after this.



Interesting that I don't see anyone in the comments screaming about where was the penalty for that little rub.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Well, instead of bump drafting, you can now ghost draft on Bluemoon. I just did a race with someone who was a lap behind, he got closer to me, overtook through me, then I overtake through him again etc, both catching up to the car further ahead. Magic!

 

[Spurgy 777]

OK, just climbed your wall of text here

I dont know any real racing drivers, but what i am referring mostly to is Formula 1 and endurance races that I am watching now and then. I honestly dont have extended knowledge, but it seems to me that the cars are made of egg shells IRL and even the smallest bumps in each other means 5 min + pit time where half the car have to be switched out for new parts. Especially in formula 1 and LMP cars where every inch of the car is especially made for downforce and balancing and every pice of carbon has a function. Hey, it can be that i am pooping on my own leg here, but it seems to me that most racing games really struggles to find the balance between ''realism'' and what is practical for a game. And what is the best solution? I really dont think PD can make everyone happy either way.

Yo, thank you for schooling me sensei! Sorry for arriving drunk to class

Sorry that I came across as a bit of a know-it-all but felt it was important to point out that the risk of contact doesn’t really come into a drivers mind in most cases. Yes you’re right that some racing cars are quite fragile but even in F1 they get away with a surprising amount of contact without any serious damage. And the fragile and expensive cars don’t stop them from driving aggressively and taking risks.

This gets right to the heart of the issue with the penalty system I think because real racing drivers can’t afford to be scared of contact, or even to think that’s its a risk. As soon as they worry about getting hurt, or how much it might cost if something goes wrong they become too timid and will struggle to stay ahead. So it’s important to be confident in your abilities and trust your instincts of when to overtake.

Right now the penalty system has everyone terrified of mistakes and contact and it’s ruining the racing. Good racing requires drivers to have the confidence to go for a move and that nothing is likely to go wrong. As it is you can’t be confident because there’s a real chance that even the smallest mistake from you or the other driver will give you a penalty. And as penalties breed penalties by putting you in unusual situations (by slowing down) small mistakes can be race ruining.

 

[Tou2istTrophy]

Good video that shows what you mean.

 

[kjeldsen]

But since the game prioritizes SR over DR, you can end up with some very low ranked B's in the race, If an A or an S get's punted, and that B driver finishes ahead, that's a pretty good haul even though he may not be that skilled.

The priority should be on the DR and the SR should simply be a limiting factor on your DR. That would make for much better matchmaking and far fewer altercations of any kind.

So the game is starting to lack SR/DR S drivers? It must be if it isn't capable of filling races with them at SR S.

Maybe it is just the wording that you're getting caught up on, Voodoovaj? I think the suggestion is that it can be optimal to your own race to not defend a position overly hard early on in a race. That might sound like giving up a position, or not racing, but it isn't; it'splaying the long game and racing your own race - it's still very much racing.

I won the FIA race last night, one of the reasons was that 2+3 was fighting hard for position over several laps sometimes it is a clear advantage to let someone faster pass so you don't end up losing time defending your position. The only exception is races on tracks where overtaking is almost impossible, and those tracks do not exist in GTS :-)

 

[Sven Jurgens]

BB raceway wasn't as bad as I feared. It was actually quite impossible to get negative SR. There were still penalties though, easily offended walls. It could get a bit confusing in a group with several back markers ghosting in and out. Ghost drafting is the new bump drafting, just make sure you drive through the right car...

 

[Haitauer]

In short - people seem to be going back to online lobbies. 👍