- 11
Thanks Orion_SR, im doing a few races with the Lupo, now 8734/100/87/86. I think ill keep going until i hit a brick wall! But i have noticed some change already!
Cheers:tup:
Cheers:tup:
Obtaining Better B-Spec Stats ??
- Thread starter LivingSoul
- 552 comments
- 128,614 views
- 1,418
I went thru my diary and checked of all tracks were raced with all four class cars. Nothing was missing.
Further visits to the ring did nothing.
Did 4 extra runs in each class at super speedway, still no extra points.
Tried random cars at problem tracks no extra points.
Tried the Audi Streamliner and the Nike car at the ring and around photo shoot laps in B spec. Nothing.
If I am missing 4 tracks for four different classes I could be redoing races for ever.
If the red skid marks come up against my B spec car, do I not get the points for that race?
B spec seems worse now than he did at 8500 points.
Further visits to the ring did nothing.
Did 4 extra runs in each class at super speedway, still no extra points.
Tried random cars at problem tracks no extra points.
Tried the Audi Streamliner and the Nike car at the ring and around photo shoot laps in B spec. Nothing.
If I am missing 4 tracks for four different classes I could be redoing races for ever.
If the red skid marks come up against my B spec car, do I not get the points for that race?
B spec seems worse now than he did at 8500 points.
Since you've done a good job on your homework, I'm not sure if any of these suggestions and links will help.
I went thru my diary and checked of all tracks were raced with all four class cars. Nothing was missing.
Check your track list against the one below. Did you remember to do the Driving Park Tracks? Did you mix up Suzuka east and west?
http://gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1832568&postcount=154
Further visits to the ring did nothing.
Darn, I was hoping for a few F-battle points out of the Ring. I made some notes on earning F-battle point at the link below.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2191766&postcount=305
Did 4 extra runs in each class at super speedway, still no extra points.
Okay, but you had to check the obvious 1st.
Tried random cars at problem tracks no extra points.
Damn, you really did read all 18 pages.
Tried the Audi Streamliner and the Nike car at the ring and around photo shoot laps in B spec. Nothing.
Good choice for machine points, but battle points must be found by racing.
If I am missing 4 tracks for four different classes I could be redoing races for ever.
Yes, but we should be able to find another 60 points before it all seems completely hopeless.
If the red skid marks come up against my B spec car, do I not get the points for that race?
To be honest, I'm not sure. I recently did a lot of testing on floating points, but haven't spent much time testing track points since the early days of B-spec. I would have repeated that race, but now I don't think it would make much difference. My strategy was to repeat anything short, and any race I was unhappy with for any reason.
I try not to generalize to much of what I know about floating point to track points because I'm not sure if the rules are the same. I also try not to speculate to much about stuff I can't quite translate from the Japanese website, but since you've studied the topic so well it's the only new information I have to add. There are some notes by the JP author I don't understand that seems to be discussing earning machine points and may apply to course points. Something is different, but the section is marked with (?) indicating that the author isn't sure either.
Translated with google from http://www.geocities.jp/j8ba7yrg/gt4/b_spec.html
So, would the skid mark indicating that the car is off the track cause points to be lost? I doubt it, but if you are skidding off the track then you may not be earning as many course points as you could be. I would suggest using a lower pace and reducing the difficultly level to compensate. The Lupo skids off the track occasionally on Nurburgring at pace 3, and the Micra can handle the whole course without error (skid marks) at pace 4. That's another reason I like the Micra so much. I really don't like to see any errors and try to avoid them.
B spec seems worse now than he did at 8500 points.
Really? I thought the most dramatic increase to battle skill was most apparent in the 8500 to 9500 range.
Assume that B-spec driver is driving the course exactly as programmed. If he makes an error is it a problem with pace or tuning. There is only 1 racing line for each track. This can be seen in early license tests (I forget the button) and is displayed as a blue, white, or red line. This racing line is exactly right for a specific car and works well for similar cars, but may not be appropriate for 3 out of the 4 classes that must be raced on that track.
So if the B-spec driver can't handle a section of track or a particular corner, then you need to tune the car to navigate the course the only way the B-spec driver knows how to drive it. Earning points will improve the driver's skill, but many problems can only be solved by tuning or chosing a different car.
Best Guesses
Missing a Track or Two: At about +13 for each track then a little more than 4 tracks could be missing. That might be 4 cars on 1 track, or 2 tracks (directions) but some of them were covered in other events.
A Pocket of Floating Battle Points: These should have been found on Nurburgring. If the sector arrow trick didn't help then I'm not sure where else to look for a big batch of easy points.
Track Battle Points: The 9 course points are usually collect fairly quickly. If you blow the doors off the other cars in every race you would still collect quite a few of the T-battle points because many track are very picky. But even if you left all 4 T-battle points on the tracks (fractions have been rounded) that would still mean 15 tracks are hiding points. Or maybe as many as 30 tracks if you collected half the available T-battle points. But I would be very much surprized if someone trying for even competition could leave that many battle points on the tracks.
When you collected the track points did you usually collect +13 and maybe +12 every 12 to 14 races? Earning +9 or +11 is a pretty good sign that more points are on that track. A +4 or +5 is usually a good sign, but you never know with +1s and +2 - these are good races to repeat.
I went thru my diary and checked of all tracks were raced with all four class cars. Nothing was missing.
Check your track list against the one below. Did you remember to do the Driving Park Tracks? Did you mix up Suzuka east and west?
http://gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1832568&postcount=154
Further visits to the ring did nothing.
Darn, I was hoping for a few F-battle points out of the Ring. I made some notes on earning F-battle point at the link below.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2191766&postcount=305
Did 4 extra runs in each class at super speedway, still no extra points.
Okay, but you had to check the obvious 1st.
Tried random cars at problem tracks no extra points.
Damn, you really did read all 18 pages.
Tried the Audi Streamliner and the Nike car at the ring and around photo shoot laps in B spec. Nothing.
Good choice for machine points, but battle points must be found by racing.
If I am missing 4 tracks for four different classes I could be redoing races for ever.
Yes, but we should be able to find another 60 points before it all seems completely hopeless.
If the red skid marks come up against my B spec car, do I not get the points for that race?
To be honest, I'm not sure. I recently did a lot of testing on floating points, but haven't spent much time testing track points since the early days of B-spec. I would have repeated that race, but now I don't think it would make much difference. My strategy was to repeat anything short, and any race I was unhappy with for any reason.
I try not to generalize to much of what I know about floating point to track points because I'm not sure if the rules are the same. I also try not to speculate to much about stuff I can't quite translate from the Japanese website, but since you've studied the topic so well it's the only new information I have to add. There are some notes by the JP author I don't understand that seems to be discussing earning machine points and may apply to course points. Something is different, but the section is marked with (?) indicating that the author isn't sure either.
Translated with google from http://www.geocities.jp/j8ba7yrg/gt4/b_spec.html
- Machine skill
- Steering wheel, work load of accelerator pedal and brake pedal,
G (acceleration) the movement of meter, accelerator meter and brake meter is counted, whether it is it is not, that .
When the steering wheel, there is no change in the movement of the accelerator pedal and the brake pedal, rise becomes sluggish. - When being 1 rank after the race/lace, regardless of race/lace contents just, it rises.
- Steering wheel, work load of accelerator pedal and brake pedal,
Course skill
- It does also the air which is similar to the manner of machine skill rise, but, it does also the kind of air which is different, .
- (?)When you think of that it is the tire wear program in GT4, the road surface (course) the tire (the machine) from the abrasion loss which is received (?)
So, would the skid mark indicating that the car is off the track cause points to be lost? I doubt it, but if you are skidding off the track then you may not be earning as many course points as you could be. I would suggest using a lower pace and reducing the difficultly level to compensate. The Lupo skids off the track occasionally on Nurburgring at pace 3, and the Micra can handle the whole course without error (skid marks) at pace 4. That's another reason I like the Micra so much. I really don't like to see any errors and try to avoid them.
B spec seems worse now than he did at 8500 points.
Really? I thought the most dramatic increase to battle skill was most apparent in the 8500 to 9500 range.
Assume that B-spec driver is driving the course exactly as programmed. If he makes an error is it a problem with pace or tuning. There is only 1 racing line for each track. This can be seen in early license tests (I forget the button) and is displayed as a blue, white, or red line. This racing line is exactly right for a specific car and works well for similar cars, but may not be appropriate for 3 out of the 4 classes that must be raced on that track.
So if the B-spec driver can't handle a section of track or a particular corner, then you need to tune the car to navigate the course the only way the B-spec driver knows how to drive it. Earning points will improve the driver's skill, but many problems can only be solved by tuning or chosing a different car.
Best Guesses
Missing a Track or Two: At about +13 for each track then a little more than 4 tracks could be missing. That might be 4 cars on 1 track, or 2 tracks (directions) but some of them were covered in other events.
A Pocket of Floating Battle Points: These should have been found on Nurburgring. If the sector arrow trick didn't help then I'm not sure where else to look for a big batch of easy points.
Track Battle Points: The 9 course points are usually collect fairly quickly. If you blow the doors off the other cars in every race you would still collect quite a few of the T-battle points because many track are very picky. But even if you left all 4 T-battle points on the tracks (fractions have been rounded) that would still mean 15 tracks are hiding points. Or maybe as many as 30 tracks if you collected half the available T-battle points. But I would be very much surprized if someone trying for even competition could leave that many battle points on the tracks.
When you collected the track points did you usually collect +13 and maybe +12 every 12 to 14 races? Earning +9 or +11 is a pretty good sign that more points are on that track. A +4 or +5 is usually a good sign, but you never know with +1s and +2 - these are good races to repeat.
- 1,418
Most of the time I got + 13 points or zero.
I got a few 2 and 1 point scores when I went back to a tricky track.
I got 7 points once when I went back to the ring.
I was trying to use harder races and using higher pace settings in an attempt to force stubborn points out when I was going off course.
I have close to 30,000 km of B spec driving up. Could the points be harder to get after using B Spec for long races in Simulation mode?
I got a few 2 and 1 point scores when I went back to a tricky track.
I got 7 points once when I went back to the ring.
I was trying to use harder races and using higher pace settings in an attempt to force stubborn points out when I was going off course.
I have close to 30,000 km of B spec driving up. Could the points be harder to get after using B Spec for long races in Simulation mode?
Some people have problems collecting all the floating points using the standard tunings after completing many other races (clean up game). If you think floating battle points are missing then maybe some different cars will have better luck.
If you try this method then consider the Triumph race and tuning for A-1 points instead of repeating the Ring with the Micra.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2192487&postcount=310
Other tunings known to collect specific floating points.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2186574&postcount=295
I tried experimenting with harder races while trying to earn more floating point and couldn't find a correlation. In other words, I don't think a high A-spec point race will earn more B-spec points. I had better luck arranging come from behind wins where the B-spec driver slowly overtakes each car over two laps. If I kept the sector arrow in front of my car for all but a few sectors, then all battle points could be collected in two laps. Since you have all the machine points you don't need to worry about using a slow pace. I don't know why track points get stuck, but usually it is only a couple, or maybe a fraction, not 62 points. Something else is missing.
If you try this method then consider the Triumph race and tuning for A-1 points instead of repeating the Ring with the Micra.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2192487&postcount=310
Other tunings known to collect specific floating points.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2186574&postcount=295
I tried experimenting with harder races while trying to earn more floating point and couldn't find a correlation. In other words, I don't think a high A-spec point race will earn more B-spec points. I had better luck arranging come from behind wins where the B-spec driver slowly overtakes each car over two laps. If I kept the sector arrow in front of my car for all but a few sectors, then all battle points could be collected in two laps. Since you have all the machine points you don't need to worry about using a slow pace. I don't know why track points get stuck, but usually it is only a couple, or maybe a fraction, not 62 points. Something else is missing.
BobK
Premium
- 7,020
- Massachusetts, USA
There is something seriously messed up with Twin Ring Motegi Super Speedway. It would appear that the larger your margin of victory, the more points you get. Here's what I've come up with. I started with a 7051/100/70/70 B-spec driver who had run only on Nurburgring. My methodology was to race the Lupo in a Family Cup race on Super Speedway at difficulty -10, record the results, reset the machine and try another run. For the record, the opposing field was as follows:
Fiat 500F '65
Fiat 500R '72
Mazda Carol 360 Deluxe '62
Honda Life Step Van '72
VW Beetle 1100 Standard (Type-11) '49
I left the pace at 3 for all races except one, and toggled overtake on at various times for each race.
Turning overtake on in the middle of the last turn gave me a win by +1.5 seconds and 7052 total B-Spec points (+1).
Overtake on at 1 1/2 laps, +4 seconds, 7052 (+1)
Overtake on after one lap, +14 second win, 7057 pts (+6)
Overtake on 12 seconds into the race, no time but well over 20 seconds, 7061 (+10)
Overtake on at start of race, no time but +23 seconds at T1, 7062 (+11)
Retrying the last race at pace 4 yielded the same result (7062, +11)
Second place finish behind the Beetle, overtake never turned on at all, 7052 (+1)
I'm going to try this with other difficulties and other cars on this track. I'm wondering if this trend might be true of the other problem tracks as well. I'll dig through this whole thread again to find them (yes I've read it all) unless some kind soul can list them.
Fiat 500F '65
Fiat 500R '72
Mazda Carol 360 Deluxe '62
Honda Life Step Van '72
VW Beetle 1100 Standard (Type-11) '49
I left the pace at 3 for all races except one, and toggled overtake on at various times for each race.
Turning overtake on in the middle of the last turn gave me a win by +1.5 seconds and 7052 total B-Spec points (+1).
Overtake on at 1 1/2 laps, +4 seconds, 7052 (+1)
Overtake on after one lap, +14 second win, 7057 pts (+6)
Overtake on 12 seconds into the race, no time but well over 20 seconds, 7061 (+10)
Overtake on at start of race, no time but +23 seconds at T1, 7062 (+11)
Retrying the last race at pace 4 yielded the same result (7062, +11)
Second place finish behind the Beetle, overtake never turned on at all, 7052 (+1)
I'm going to try this with other difficulties and other cars on this track. I'm wondering if this trend might be true of the other problem tracks as well. I'll dig through this whole thread again to find them (yes I've read it all) unless some kind soul can list them.
Yes, you are right. Super Speedway seems to be in a class by itself. Most tracks will freely give up all the course points. Maybe the is something about the oval track that makes earning these points more difficult.BobK
Excellent experiment, and very well reported. I encourage you to continue with your efforts. I have a few comments about the interpretation of the data, the methods used, and other strategies for refining the measurements.
You had a constant field and pace, and used overtake to control the margin of victory. Following a car with overtake off is associated with fewer floating points earned. A faster pace also reduces the floating points. I have not found a correlation between difficulty level and floating points. You might consider repeating your Super Speedway track point experiement using pace 1, overtake on after the 1st split (maybe, is there more than one split on Super Speedway?), and use difficultly levels to control the margin of victory. These settings are similar to those used by the JP author, and my floating point experiments. They provide the best control procedure for comparison with other experiements.BobK
In other words, I think you earned less points because you didn't overtake when you had the chance. But wow, what a dramatic influence. I think you are on to an important clue about Super Speedway and I'm looking forward to your next report.
The Lupo Sucks!!! However, it was the car used by the JP author when he went looking for stubborn tracks and tested Super Speedway. So it was probably a good choice for your tests.
Stubborn Track Post with Links to JP Track Point Data
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2192700&postcount=311
Consider incrementing your progress by 24 races to reach 7361, 1 track short of the 1st hard milestone of 7375. You can identify 6 easy tracks from the JP data that always give up their points, cover them with the 4 classes, and remove them from consideration. Then when you perform experiments on a single track you can test to see if all +14 points are collected and be confident that no fractions are left on the track. This would add considerable credibility to any method found to collect all of the points.
During my Floating Point tests, I found it helpful to test the machine and F-battle points separately, then try to combine what I had learned about both methods. Course points can be earned using practice mode, then the T-battle points can be tested by racing before resetting. This should be quick and painless for track points, but it took forever with the floating points.
BobK
Premium
- 7,020
- Massachusetts, USA
First, some commentary as to what my particular objectives are. I want to create a savegame with licenses through IA, 100% wins, 10000/100/100/100 B-Spec driver and as little else as possible in terms of game completion. I will use a copy of this savegame in the future when I wish to start another "real" game.
Currently I am done through race 136 and am at 8758/100/87/87. I hit the first four +14's so far right on schedule at races 29, 58, 87 and 116. For counting purposes, I break the 34 races it took me at Nurburgring to reach the 7051/100/70/70 milestone into 30 races to collect all floating points and 4 races to collect the track points (and the first four races in the 232 race sequence). I am using the Japanese method; Lupo, Miata-A, Miata-B, Miata-C, etc.
The attraction of this method to me is that I could get the necessary cars and upgrades with as little extra as possible. I got the Lupo with the B license of course. I won the Costa di Amalfi rally with the Nismo 270R from the IA license. I then used the Toyota RSC car to win the Costa di Amalfi again, put S3's on the first RSC to win the Japan Championship series and the 350Z, then sold it for cash to buy R3 tires for the second RSC, a Miata, turbos, etc.
I made a copy of the game when I hit the 7051/etc milestone, and it's that copy I used for the experiment above. To be pedantic, I'm using a copy of that copy. Since I hit the subsequent milestones on schedule, I know that I have collected all floating points so they shouldn't be an issue in the experiment. Anyway, on to the next experiment.
My methodology was again to use the Lupo, resetting the game after each race. for each race I set the pace and toggled overtake on before the start of the race. For the first set of races, I left the pace at 3 and varied the difficulty for each race.
Difficulty 0, 4th place finish, 2.768 seconds behind the winner, 7057 (+6) pts
Difficulty -1, win by 0.788, 7064 (+13)
Difficulty -2, 2nd place 7 seconds behind the Prius Touring Car and 7 seconds ahead of third place, 7060 (+9)
Difficulty -3, win by 4.581, 7064 (+13)
Difficulty -4, 15 seconds behind the Dodge Ram, 13 seconds ahead of 3rd, 7059 (+8)
Difficulty -5, 14 seconds behind the Dodge Ram, 10 ahead of 3rd, 7059 (+8)
Difficulty -6, win by 14 seconds, 7062 (+11)
Difficulty -7, win by 14, 7062 (+11)
Difficulty -8, win by over 28, 7062 (+11)
Difficulty -9, win by over 23, 7062 (+11)
Difficulty -10, win by over 23, 7062 (+11)
Note that the last race here duplicates the results of the same race in the first experiment, this is good. I like it when an experiment yields repeatable results.
At this point I ran races at difficulties of 0, -1 and -3, as above but varying the pace before the start:
Diff 0 pace 2, 4th place, 3.366 seconds behind 1st, 7058 (+7)
Diff 0 pace 4, 4th, 0.978 behind 1st, 7058 (+7)
Diff 0 pace 5, 4th, 0.978 behind 1st, 7057 (+6)
Diff -1 pace 1, 2nd by 2.220, 7058 (+7)
Diff -1 pace 2, 1st by 0.333, 7074 (+13)
Diff -1 pace 4, 1st by 0.734, 7063 (+12)
Diff -1 pace 5, 1st by 0.734, 7063 (+12)
Diff -3 pace 1, 1st by 4.042, 7062 (+11)
Diff -3 pace 2, 1st by 5.431, 7063 (+12)
Diff -3 pace 4, 1st by 4.548, 7064 (+13)
Diff -3 pace 5, 1st by 4.548, 7063 (+12)
Note the diff 0 pace 5 race lost by the same identical amount as the pace 4, and the diff -3 pace 5 won by the same amount as the pace 4, but each yielded one less point. However the diff -1 paces 4 and 5 were identical margins of victory and the same point gain; it's possible of course that the fractions could be different. I did not record the times for any other cars, might have been interesting.
I agree it would be well worthwhile to run another 24 races elsewhere to get to 7361/100/73/73 and then try the races that yielded +13 here and see if they yield +13 or +14. Even more interesting might be to continue on to race #115, one shy of the 8500/100/85/85 milestone, run Super Speedway again, and see what a +13 does to the course and battle points.
In any case, it would appear that this experiment refutes my original conclusion that winning by more is better on Super Speedway.
An item of anecdotal interest. I made a copy of the game at 8551/100/85/85 and started playing. I bought an Opel Speedster Turbo and all upgrades including wing and R4 tires, then tried the Opel Speedster Cup in B-spec mode. I won on Grand Valley and Seattle, but lost on Autumn Ring Reverse, Suzuka East and Infineon. I'm not sure if it's a coincidence or not that I'd already collected the track points for the races I won and not on the races I lost, but I concede that Autumn Ring Reverse and Infineon are tracks that a B-spec driver is known to have trouble winning on. Perhaps I'll run the Lupo/Miata/RSC/350Z quartet on the three tracks I lost on then retry the Speedster Cup.
Thank you for the link to the problem tracks spreadsheet, and your commentary on my experiment.
Currently I am done through race 136 and am at 8758/100/87/87. I hit the first four +14's so far right on schedule at races 29, 58, 87 and 116. For counting purposes, I break the 34 races it took me at Nurburgring to reach the 7051/100/70/70 milestone into 30 races to collect all floating points and 4 races to collect the track points (and the first four races in the 232 race sequence). I am using the Japanese method; Lupo, Miata-A, Miata-B, Miata-C, etc.
The attraction of this method to me is that I could get the necessary cars and upgrades with as little extra as possible. I got the Lupo with the B license of course. I won the Costa di Amalfi rally with the Nismo 270R from the IA license. I then used the Toyota RSC car to win the Costa di Amalfi again, put S3's on the first RSC to win the Japan Championship series and the 350Z, then sold it for cash to buy R3 tires for the second RSC, a Miata, turbos, etc.
I made a copy of the game when I hit the 7051/etc milestone, and it's that copy I used for the experiment above. To be pedantic, I'm using a copy of that copy. Since I hit the subsequent milestones on schedule, I know that I have collected all floating points so they shouldn't be an issue in the experiment. Anyway, on to the next experiment.
My methodology was again to use the Lupo, resetting the game after each race. for each race I set the pace and toggled overtake on before the start of the race. For the first set of races, I left the pace at 3 and varied the difficulty for each race.
Difficulty 0, 4th place finish, 2.768 seconds behind the winner, 7057 (+6) pts
Difficulty -1, win by 0.788, 7064 (+13)
Difficulty -2, 2nd place 7 seconds behind the Prius Touring Car and 7 seconds ahead of third place, 7060 (+9)
Difficulty -3, win by 4.581, 7064 (+13)
Difficulty -4, 15 seconds behind the Dodge Ram, 13 seconds ahead of 3rd, 7059 (+8)
Difficulty -5, 14 seconds behind the Dodge Ram, 10 ahead of 3rd, 7059 (+8)
Difficulty -6, win by 14 seconds, 7062 (+11)
Difficulty -7, win by 14, 7062 (+11)
Difficulty -8, win by over 28, 7062 (+11)
Difficulty -9, win by over 23, 7062 (+11)
Difficulty -10, win by over 23, 7062 (+11)
Note that the last race here duplicates the results of the same race in the first experiment, this is good. I like it when an experiment yields repeatable results.
At this point I ran races at difficulties of 0, -1 and -3, as above but varying the pace before the start:
Diff 0 pace 2, 4th place, 3.366 seconds behind 1st, 7058 (+7)
Diff 0 pace 4, 4th, 0.978 behind 1st, 7058 (+7)
Diff 0 pace 5, 4th, 0.978 behind 1st, 7057 (+6)
Diff -1 pace 1, 2nd by 2.220, 7058 (+7)
Diff -1 pace 2, 1st by 0.333, 7074 (+13)
Diff -1 pace 4, 1st by 0.734, 7063 (+12)
Diff -1 pace 5, 1st by 0.734, 7063 (+12)
Diff -3 pace 1, 1st by 4.042, 7062 (+11)
Diff -3 pace 2, 1st by 5.431, 7063 (+12)
Diff -3 pace 4, 1st by 4.548, 7064 (+13)
Diff -3 pace 5, 1st by 4.548, 7063 (+12)
Note the diff 0 pace 5 race lost by the same identical amount as the pace 4, and the diff -3 pace 5 won by the same amount as the pace 4, but each yielded one less point. However the diff -1 paces 4 and 5 were identical margins of victory and the same point gain; it's possible of course that the fractions could be different. I did not record the times for any other cars, might have been interesting.
I agree it would be well worthwhile to run another 24 races elsewhere to get to 7361/100/73/73 and then try the races that yielded +13 here and see if they yield +13 or +14. Even more interesting might be to continue on to race #115, one shy of the 8500/100/85/85 milestone, run Super Speedway again, and see what a +13 does to the course and battle points.
In any case, it would appear that this experiment refutes my original conclusion that winning by more is better on Super Speedway.
An item of anecdotal interest. I made a copy of the game at 8551/100/85/85 and started playing. I bought an Opel Speedster Turbo and all upgrades including wing and R4 tires, then tried the Opel Speedster Cup in B-spec mode. I won on Grand Valley and Seattle, but lost on Autumn Ring Reverse, Suzuka East and Infineon. I'm not sure if it's a coincidence or not that I'd already collected the track points for the races I won and not on the races I lost, but I concede that Autumn Ring Reverse and Infineon are tracks that a B-spec driver is known to have trouble winning on. Perhaps I'll run the Lupo/Miata/RSC/350Z quartet on the three tracks I lost on then retry the Speedster Cup.
Thank you for the link to the problem tracks spreadsheet, and your commentary on my experiment.
- 1,418
9944. 100, 99, 99,
Picked up 6 more points.
Decided to be methodical.
Ran a MX5 tuned with race hard tires, semi racing suspension, race exhaust, chip and NA1. Ran all world courses and all original courses apart from Apricot Hill using difficulty of -4 to 0 depending on track.
Found 2 points at Fuji Speedway 2005. Started on pace 1 with overtake off. Then won by about 3 seconds .
Found 4 points at Grand Valley Reverse. Again started on pace 1 with overtake off.
Maybe on my original races on the standing start grid I got to the front too fast and missed several battle points.
B specced drove very well last night, at all pace settings, maybe he has bad days programmed in?
Picked up 6 more points.
Decided to be methodical.
Ran a MX5 tuned with race hard tires, semi racing suspension, race exhaust, chip and NA1. Ran all world courses and all original courses apart from Apricot Hill using difficulty of -4 to 0 depending on track.
Found 2 points at Fuji Speedway 2005. Started on pace 1 with overtake off. Then won by about 3 seconds .
Found 4 points at Grand Valley Reverse. Again started on pace 1 with overtake off.
Maybe on my original races on the standing start grid I got to the front too fast and missed several battle points.
B specced drove very well last night, at all pace settings, maybe he has bad days programmed in?
SportWagon
Premium
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- Punkeydoodles Corners, Ontario, Canada. (aka GT2t
I mostly used the "wait 13(?) seconds before passing" rule, and only had trouble getting the last two(2) points. (At Super Speedway).Uncle Harry
When he gets better, he might have more tendency to do worse at higher pace settings? I.e. early on he might not go hard enough on "5" to wipe out, or even lose time. Also, I'm reasonably sure ASM helps B-spec. While traction control would be computer-controlled acceleration which the B-spec algorithm ought to be able to mimic, ASM supposedly uses braking control of individual wheels to achieve its effects; something B-spec cannot do. A track where ASM seems to be required to stop 10,000pt B-spec from losing control is Infineon (in Le Mans prototype cars).
The Difficulty Level Experiement didn't work out as expected. The Prius TS and Dodge Ram throw everything out of whack. I don't think there is any way to perform this experiement with the Lupo or any other A-1 car. However, the Miata A (default) is also an A class car and should collect the same points, it might be a better choice for track points in general. At the bottom of the power range, the A-1 sub-class may not provide consistent results.
Despite the Ram and Prius TS, it might be fair to argue that winning is better than losing, and winning by a lot isn't as good as winning by a little. It is hard to tell with the limited data set, but there doesn't seem to be a correlation between points earned and difficulty.
I'm glad you tired the experiment with pace as a variable. I thought about this but didn't want to ask too much. I'm not sure if there is much of a difference in the results from this data. The difference between +12 or +13 points could be very slight due to the fractions.
The fraction for 7051 is 21/29th, and 12 and 27/29ths are earned on Super Speedway, so a +12 is definately well short of a complete track, but even a +13 could leave a large fraction on the track.
What is the deal with all the +6s, +7s, and +11s? I usually interpret +11s as all course points and half the battle points. But in this case I'm not so sure. I guess Super Speedway is fairly short so maybe there isn't enough time to collect all the course points in one race, but none of the other tracks have been so stubborn about course points - battle points are usually the prime concern. The +6 or +7s might mean half the course points and half the T-battle points, but these are fairly rare scores.
Anyway, now I'm curious. What type of points are getting stuck, course, T-battle, or a combination of both? If course points are getting stuck, what must we do to collect them? Are the T-battle points more stubborn on this track as well, or is the data being confused by unusual course points?
You don't need to try to answer these questions, but if you give me good data I can't help but ask what it all means. Again, nice work. I look forward to reading more.
Despite the Ram and Prius TS, it might be fair to argue that winning is better than losing, and winning by a lot isn't as good as winning by a little. It is hard to tell with the limited data set, but there doesn't seem to be a correlation between points earned and difficulty.
I'm glad you tired the experiment with pace as a variable. I thought about this but didn't want to ask too much. I'm not sure if there is much of a difference in the results from this data. The difference between +12 or +13 points could be very slight due to the fractions.
The fraction for 7051 is 21/29th, and 12 and 27/29ths are earned on Super Speedway, so a +12 is definately well short of a complete track, but even a +13 could leave a large fraction on the track.
What is the deal with all the +6s, +7s, and +11s? I usually interpret +11s as all course points and half the battle points. But in this case I'm not so sure. I guess Super Speedway is fairly short so maybe there isn't enough time to collect all the course points in one race, but none of the other tracks have been so stubborn about course points - battle points are usually the prime concern. The +6 or +7s might mean half the course points and half the T-battle points, but these are fairly rare scores.
Anyway, now I'm curious. What type of points are getting stuck, course, T-battle, or a combination of both? If course points are getting stuck, what must we do to collect them? Are the T-battle points more stubborn on this track as well, or is the data being confused by unusual course points?
You don't need to try to answer these questions, but if you give me good data I can't help but ask what it all means. Again, nice work. I look forward to reading more.
Good work Harry. Interesting tuning you chose for the Miata. Whats the HP on your setup? Can you tell if you are earning A or B class track points? I'm not sure if passing too soon is all that important. I ignored the passing rules whenever they were annoying and didn't notice any difference. I suppose this is another area that could use some testing. The no passing rule is important on Nurburgring for earning floating point - does this rule generalize to track points or other tracks?
This is what the JP author has to say on the subject in the updated website - I think. A better translation would be helpful.
This is what the JP author has to say on the subject in the updated website - I think. A better translation would be helpful.
- Battle skill
- The enemy car is pulled out, when trying it will get near to the enemy car it will remove the travelling line probably to pull out the enemy car it does not pull out of regardless,
When [obateiku] trying to do the generally known, enemy car it rises.
Unless [obateikubotan] is turned on, because [obateiku] it does not try to do the enemy car it does not rise.
When the enemy car expands largely with the corner and when course having turned off and the like, pulling out, that [obateiku] it will do, because it is not the case that it pulled out it does not rise.
Immediately after the grid starting and [obateiku] trying to do the enemy car of 5 rank with such as straight, when it pulls out also the enemy car of 4 rank and 3 rank and 2 rank and 1 rank, because it pulled out that [obateiku] it will do the enemy car of 5 rank, it rises, but that the enemy car itself of 4 rank and 3 rank and 2 rank and 1 rank [obateiku] will be done, because it is not the case that it was pulled out it does not rise. - When after the race/lace, being 1 rank just, it rises with race/lace contents.
- The enemy car is pulled out, when trying it will get near to the enemy car it will remove the travelling line probably to pull out the enemy car it does not pull out of regardless,
Gaining the full battle points for each race is the big obstactle, and the author did some testing and concluded that the key is to NOT PASS THE OPPOSITION TOO QUICKLY or finish the race with TOO BIG A LEAD.
6. That last point requires its own bullet! The author did some testing and found that passing too many opposing cars in roughly the first 12 seconds of a race can reduce battle points awarded. So he adopted a strategy of downgrading the opponent level to a point where the B-Spec driver can be paced in "slow down" mode to lag back and not pass until at least about 13 seconds into the race (or at Nurburging, before the first hairpin), then not run away from the competition.
The "last point" was the fraction he dropped early in the collection. I'm not sure this point was any different from any other track point. Also, many of the statements by the author on the original JP site have been retracted by crossing out the text but leaving the words. I don't know which statements from the above text the JP author would no longer agree with.6. That last point requires its own bullet! The author did some testing and found that passing too many opposing cars in roughly the first 12 seconds of a race can reduce battle points awarded. So he adopted a strategy of downgrading the opponent level to a point where the B-Spec driver can be paced in "slow down" mode to lag back and not pass until at least about 13 seconds into the race (or at Nurburging, before the first hairpin), then not run away from the competition.
- 1,418
Orion, power was about 190bhp so I am saying class B.
For me I could have 30 races left that need 2 points picked up accross approx 170 races.
I will try a fast car on slow settings to hang back and then work my way to the lead before the last corner.
It may take some testing to find the best car tune and difficulty setting.
I am thinking of the FTO LM for class C.
For me I could have 30 races left that need 2 points picked up accross approx 170 races.
I will try a fast car on slow settings to hang back and then work my way to the lead before the last corner.
It may take some testing to find the best car tune and difficulty setting.
I am thinking of the FTO LM for class C.
BobK
Premium
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- Massachusetts, USA
When I repeat the experiment with a different car it shouldn't matter if it's a class B, C or D, since it seems that each of the four classes earn the same number of track points. So within a day or two I'll repeat essentially the same tests with the RSC or the 350Z, possibly both.
I certainly agree that the Prius TS and Dodge Ram are messing things up. To be honest when they showed up in the lineup I was tempted to just reset the machine again and go on to the next difficulty. This is the biggest problem I've had with the Lupo in fact; the fact that it draws the Prius TS at difficulty -2 and the Dodge Ram at difficulties of -4 and -5. This costs me a lot of flexibility in choosing race strategy. Otherwise the Lupo has been just about as reliable for collecting points as the other three cars, however I did have to run the High Speed Ring and Midfield Reverse twice to collect all points for the Lupo.
What would have been really nice to have would have been a race where pace 3 yielded a very close second place, by one or two tenths of a second. It would have been interesting to see the results of a pace 2 and 4 race with everything else held the same. Perhaps one of the other cars will cough up something to play with.
I think it's pretty likely that the +13's are short of the 12 27/29ths but over 12 8/29ths. This is why it would be interesting to run the 24 races elsewhere and retry Super Speedway. I'm afraid the only way I can think of to determine if it's course or battle points that are coming up short is to run another 111 races, then Super Speedway and see if we get 8499/100/84/85 or 8499/100/85/84. But there's far too much opportunity to miss fractions in those other 111 races, so the results wouldn't be conclusive IMO. On second thought, though, if the race 87 checkpoint is met (8125, +14), then races 88 through 115 are all run twice just to make sure, it could work. If curiosity overwhelms me and I have a lot of free time I might give it a shot, but I'm making no commitment to do so at this time.
I feel that was a pretty good insight on your part, that it's course points being lost, not battle points.
So the conclusions I draw at this point are:
1. Winning is better than losing.
2. Winning by a little is better than winning by a lot.
3. Rerun the short tracks just to make sure.
But we already knew that of course.
One question I'd like to see answered is, how big a margin of victory can you have and still gain all points? My gut feeling on this is quite a lot, 12 seconds or more, however it varies from track to track. I did have a couple runaway races (the B-spec driver took the lead too soon with overtake off) and often gained a +13, but I discarded the race, reset the machine and reran it to get a closer finish. I'm talking about races on other tracks here, not Super Speedway.
I don't worry about grid starts where the car jumps immediately to 5th or 4th spot, but I'm leery of races where it jumps to 3rd or 2nd. Rolling starts never seem to be a problem with too early an overtake (excepting the 'ring of course).
Here's what I consider the ideal strategy to get the perfect race:
Move into 4th place as soon as possible after 12 seconds (or T2 on the 'ring). Move into 3rd at the beginning of the second lap and close on the two leaders. Move into second place about one third or halfway through lap 2. Take the lead on the last turn or halfway down the last straight if it's a fair distance from the last turn to the finish line. Win the race by one or two tenths of a second, with the third place car 2 seconds behind or less. Needless to say it doesn't always work out that way!
I certainly agree that the Prius TS and Dodge Ram are messing things up. To be honest when they showed up in the lineup I was tempted to just reset the machine again and go on to the next difficulty. This is the biggest problem I've had with the Lupo in fact; the fact that it draws the Prius TS at difficulty -2 and the Dodge Ram at difficulties of -4 and -5. This costs me a lot of flexibility in choosing race strategy. Otherwise the Lupo has been just about as reliable for collecting points as the other three cars, however I did have to run the High Speed Ring and Midfield Reverse twice to collect all points for the Lupo.
What would have been really nice to have would have been a race where pace 3 yielded a very close second place, by one or two tenths of a second. It would have been interesting to see the results of a pace 2 and 4 race with everything else held the same. Perhaps one of the other cars will cough up something to play with.
I think it's pretty likely that the +13's are short of the 12 27/29ths but over 12 8/29ths. This is why it would be interesting to run the 24 races elsewhere and retry Super Speedway. I'm afraid the only way I can think of to determine if it's course or battle points that are coming up short is to run another 111 races, then Super Speedway and see if we get 8499/100/84/85 or 8499/100/85/84. But there's far too much opportunity to miss fractions in those other 111 races, so the results wouldn't be conclusive IMO. On second thought, though, if the race 87 checkpoint is met (8125, +14), then races 88 through 115 are all run twice just to make sure, it could work. If curiosity overwhelms me and I have a lot of free time I might give it a shot, but I'm making no commitment to do so at this time.
I feel that was a pretty good insight on your part, that it's course points being lost, not battle points.
So the conclusions I draw at this point are:
1. Winning is better than losing.
2. Winning by a little is better than winning by a lot.
3. Rerun the short tracks just to make sure.
But we already knew that of course.
One question I'd like to see answered is, how big a margin of victory can you have and still gain all points? My gut feeling on this is quite a lot, 12 seconds or more, however it varies from track to track. I did have a couple runaway races (the B-spec driver took the lead too soon with overtake off) and often gained a +13, but I discarded the race, reset the machine and reran it to get a closer finish. I'm talking about races on other tracks here, not Super Speedway.
I don't worry about grid starts where the car jumps immediately to 5th or 4th spot, but I'm leery of races where it jumps to 3rd or 2nd. Rolling starts never seem to be a problem with too early an overtake (excepting the 'ring of course).
Here's what I consider the ideal strategy to get the perfect race:
Move into 4th place as soon as possible after 12 seconds (or T2 on the 'ring). Move into 3rd at the beginning of the second lap and close on the two leaders. Move into second place about one third or halfway through lap 2. Take the lead on the last turn or halfway down the last straight if it's a fair distance from the last turn to the finish line. Win the race by one or two tenths of a second, with the third place car 2 seconds behind or less. Needless to say it doesn't always work out that way!
Uncle Harry,
I was using the Miata 1800 RS with S1 tires and 196HP for A-2 points. With R2 tires equipped your Miata was most likely cleaning up class B points, but is at the lowest end of the class range. I think you can equip everything on the Miata and still be under the Renault Clio Sport V6 Phase 2 with R3 tires and 423HP I used to collect B-2 floating points.
The data indicates that cars near the peak of their sub-class earn floating points more quickly than less powerful cars in the same sub-class, but I'm not sure if this is true for track classes. I encourage you to experiment with different cars and tunings, but you might want to run some tests to make sure you don't repeat all the tracks with the same class again.
I devised a B-spec sub-class test, but it only works for normal cars and hasn't been tested. However, Team A-spec has developed a list that ranks cars for calculating 200 A-spec point races, and I think it can be used to measure the sub-class of any car.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2211640&postcount=347
The hypothesis is; Assume that Family Cup difficulty level 0 spawns cars that are almost equal to which ever car or tuning you enter in the race. If you know which class the competition is in, then you can estimate with reasonable accuracy (+/- ~2) the sub-class of the car.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2200412&postcount=315
I was using the Miata 1800 RS with S1 tires and 196HP for A-2 points. With R2 tires equipped your Miata was most likely cleaning up class B points, but is at the lowest end of the class range. I think you can equip everything on the Miata and still be under the Renault Clio Sport V6 Phase 2 with R3 tires and 423HP I used to collect B-2 floating points.
The data indicates that cars near the peak of their sub-class earn floating points more quickly than less powerful cars in the same sub-class, but I'm not sure if this is true for track classes. I encourage you to experiment with different cars and tunings, but you might want to run some tests to make sure you don't repeat all the tracks with the same class again.
I devised a B-spec sub-class test, but it only works for normal cars and hasn't been tested. However, Team A-spec has developed a list that ranks cars for calculating 200 A-spec point races, and I think it can be used to measure the sub-class of any car.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2211640&postcount=347
The hypothesis is; Assume that Family Cup difficulty level 0 spawns cars that are almost equal to which ever car or tuning you enter in the race. If you know which class the competition is in, then you can estimate with reasonable accuracy (+/- ~2) the sub-class of the car.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2200412&postcount=315
BobK,
There is an easy test to determine if you are missing course or T-battle points using your current procedure. If you run a race and earn +7 points, then you can return to the track and practice for a few minutes. This should collect any course points remaining on the track. You could then run a few races to confirm the T-battle points, but since the T-battle points also influence course skill, there would be no way to verify that all the course points were actually collected first. However, this method should be close enough to get a sense of what the course points are doing in this race.
Note: if you enter a Family Cup and don't like the lineup, then just quit the race and try again. This will not increment a day or count against the win/loss record - a null event. You don't need to reset the game. This is not true for practice mode, a day is incremented whether you practice or not. You can probably work around the Prius TS, but that Ram tends to spawn in every race for two classes no matter how many times I reset. You could test A class points using the Miata A and avoid those cars completely. Actually, it looks like the Prius TS might turn up at -10, but it shouldn't throw of the data as much at the bottom of the scale.
There is an easy test to determine if you are missing course or T-battle points using your current procedure. If you run a race and earn +7 points, then you can return to the track and practice for a few minutes. This should collect any course points remaining on the track. You could then run a few races to confirm the T-battle points, but since the T-battle points also influence course skill, there would be no way to verify that all the course points were actually collected first. However, this method should be close enough to get a sense of what the course points are doing in this race.
Note: if you enter a Family Cup and don't like the lineup, then just quit the race and try again. This will not increment a day or count against the win/loss record - a null event. You don't need to reset the game. This is not true for practice mode, a day is incremented whether you practice or not. You can probably work around the Prius TS, but that Ram tends to spawn in every race for two classes no matter how many times I reset. You could test A class points using the Miata A and avoid those cars completely. Actually, it looks like the Prius TS might turn up at -10, but it shouldn't throw of the data as much at the bottom of the scale.
SportWagon
Premium
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- Punkeydoodles Corners, Ontario, Canada. (aka GT2t
I collected my stubborn two points, (9998/100/99/99) apparently both at the same time, by coming third at the Super Speedway with the [R]350Z. I say apparently both at the same time because I had raced other cars there in the same session, and later (from an archive save) tried racing only the [R]350Z but did not seem to be able to get all two points using only that car. I.e. it looked like missing fractions were won by the other cars.
I think I have a save a few tracks shy of 7375 that I can use to run some tests, but I need to put this off for a while longer. SportWagon's stubborn point emphasize the need to keep track of the fractions.
What if Super Speedway is not special and is scored like all the other tracks? Maybe there is something about the conditions of the race that makes scoring points more difficult. The JP author hints at G-force, work load of brakes, accellerator, and steering wheel - possibly an interaction between these factors. Could the high speed oval lead to race conditions of the worst possible combination for earning B-spec points? To be specific, I think this would apply mostly to course points in a manner that is similar to machine points.
I found sector arrows to be strongly associated with earning lots of F-battle points. I'm not sure if split times directly influence the battle points, or if my attempts to max my arrows also led to conditions that were better for F-battle points. What if sector arrows directly influence T-battle points? Then we might have a hard time collecting all the points on short tracks, or other tracks with few splits. How many splits does Super Speedway have?
If this is true, then suppose I was able to collect +13 points for second place fairly consistently. Then if I ran the same race but place 1st, I would collect the bonuses and be reasonably sure that no fractions could possibly be left on the track. I had some success with this strategy when trying to maximize my machine points for the 2nd and 3rd races on the Ring.
We need to keep challenging our assumptions. For floating points, it didn't seem to matter if I won by a little or a lot, but winning by a very large lead usually collected fewer points than expected. Other factors seem more important; that's why I started experimenting with sector arrows and come from behind wins similar to the lap battle missions. Also, I found it difficult to have very much control over how close the finish would be on Nurburgring.
What if Super Speedway is not special and is scored like all the other tracks? Maybe there is something about the conditions of the race that makes scoring points more difficult. The JP author hints at G-force, work load of brakes, accellerator, and steering wheel - possibly an interaction between these factors. Could the high speed oval lead to race conditions of the worst possible combination for earning B-spec points? To be specific, I think this would apply mostly to course points in a manner that is similar to machine points.
I found sector arrows to be strongly associated with earning lots of F-battle points. I'm not sure if split times directly influence the battle points, or if my attempts to max my arrows also led to conditions that were better for F-battle points. What if sector arrows directly influence T-battle points? Then we might have a hard time collecting all the points on short tracks, or other tracks with few splits. How many splits does Super Speedway have?
When after the race/lace, being 1 rank just, it rises with race/lace contents.
This statement is applied by the JP author to both machine skill and battle skill. There appears to be a bonus to machine points associated with winning. I saw less evidence of this for F-battle points, but Nurburgring is such a long race that this could have masked any bonuses - maybe I didn't need the bonus because I already had all the F-battle points.
If this is true, then suppose I was able to collect +13 points for second place fairly consistently. Then if I ran the same race but place 1st, I would collect the bonuses and be reasonably sure that no fractions could possibly be left on the track. I had some success with this strategy when trying to maximize my machine points for the 2nd and 3rd races on the Ring.
Immediately after the grid starting and [obateiku] trying to do the enemy car of 5 rank with such as straight, when it pulls out also the enemy car of 4 rank and 3 rank and 2 rank and 1 rank, because it pulled out that [obateiku] it will do the enemy car of 5 rank, it rises, but that the enemy car itself of 4 rank and 3 rank and 2 rank and 1 rank [obateiku] will be done, because it is not the case that it was pulled out it does not rise.
Uh... what? I think we need to run our own tests on the importance of passing rules and how it applies to grid starts. But I agree with BobK, I don't think passing a car or two at the start completely messes up the race.
We need to keep challenging our assumptions. For floating points, it didn't seem to matter if I won by a little or a lot, but winning by a very large lead usually collected fewer points than expected. Other factors seem more important; that's why I started experimenting with sector arrows and come from behind wins similar to the lap battle missions. Also, I found it difficult to have very much control over how close the finish would be on Nurburgring.
I've collected the floating points several times, but I only did the sweeps twice. I've considered trying to see how many points I can get out of the event races and no family cups, but I'll probably play something else instead as well. However, I still might poke around with the track points to see what I can learn. I'm glad to see that you are still checking in. I got distracted with my progress on floating points, and I'm not sure I gave your fraction retention hypothesis for +14 the attention it deserves.
Well, the math is accurate, but it unfortunately doesn't give any answers.
As a method to obtain all points starting from zero, the JP author has provided that method. As for finding missing points, nothing beats keeping detailed records & some well-educated guessing (which you are good at & have experience with).
I was really hoping that "cracking the code", so to say, would provide some answers. Or maybe even provide an easier method of finding those missing points. But even is I'm completely right, it doesn't help the way I was hoping. At most, it will always remain a theory.
As a method to obtain all points starting from zero, the JP author has provided that method. As for finding missing points, nothing beats keeping detailed records & some well-educated guessing (which you are good at & have experience with).
I was really hoping that "cracking the code", so to say, would provide some answers. Or maybe even provide an easier method of finding those missing points. But even is I'm completely right, it doesn't help the way I was hoping. At most, it will always remain a theory.
BobK
Premium
- 7,020
- Massachusetts, USA
Orion_SR:
Four tracks that come to mind that have no splits are Beginner's Course, Suzuka East, Fuji 2005F and Fuji 2005GT. Super Speedway has one split. My gut feeling is it was the strategy you were using to keep the sector arrows on that was gaining the points, rather than the arrows being on in and of itself.
I'm wondering if the JP author was trying to say it's the number of control inputs that influence collection of course and/or machine points. It's certainly true that Super Speedway requires less steering and throttle and braking than any of the other tracks (mash the throttle at the start, steer around two constant-radius turns twice, finish race). And it does so by a fair margin over any other track.
I've used the refuse-the-race tactic a few times to draw an opposing field more to my liking. However on two occasions I refused the race five or six times in a row, finally got the opposition I wanted (or got rid of the opposition I didn't want, I should say), ran the race and ended up collecting 0 points. I'd say this needs confirmation, though, since I didn't keep any records on it. Another unsuccessful tactic was this: I was trying to get a win on Beginner's Course with the 350Z D-class car and was unable to do so, even at difficulty -10. So I equipped it with sports tires back at "home" or the Nissan tuneup shop, entered the race, changed the tires back to R3, ran the race. And collected 0 points. This could also use verification.
Looking back at my records, after hitting 7051 at Nurburgring, I had run Seoul, Tokyo R246 and Hong Kong all normal and reverse with all four cars, after which point I was one race short of 7375. It shouldn't be much of an issue repeating this; it could be useful having a 1-shy-of-7375 game archived. Would you have any issues with Seoul being a possible problem track due to being too short?
My 10,000 B-spec point quest is coming along nicely. I've done all the city and original courses and am about to start the world circuits. After 152 races (counting Nurburgring as four track point races) I'm at 8965/100/89/89, and collected the +14 as expected on race number 145. I'm probably going to save Beginner's Course for last hoping that a 9900+ B-Spec driver can pull off the win with the 350Z.
Four tracks that come to mind that have no splits are Beginner's Course, Suzuka East, Fuji 2005F and Fuji 2005GT. Super Speedway has one split. My gut feeling is it was the strategy you were using to keep the sector arrows on that was gaining the points, rather than the arrows being on in and of itself.
I'm wondering if the JP author was trying to say it's the number of control inputs that influence collection of course and/or machine points. It's certainly true that Super Speedway requires less steering and throttle and braking than any of the other tracks (mash the throttle at the start, steer around two constant-radius turns twice, finish race). And it does so by a fair margin over any other track.
I've used the refuse-the-race tactic a few times to draw an opposing field more to my liking. However on two occasions I refused the race five or six times in a row, finally got the opposition I wanted (or got rid of the opposition I didn't want, I should say), ran the race and ended up collecting 0 points. I'd say this needs confirmation, though, since I didn't keep any records on it. Another unsuccessful tactic was this: I was trying to get a win on Beginner's Course with the 350Z D-class car and was unable to do so, even at difficulty -10. So I equipped it with sports tires back at "home" or the Nissan tuneup shop, entered the race, changed the tires back to R3, ran the race. And collected 0 points. This could also use verification.
Looking back at my records, after hitting 7051 at Nurburgring, I had run Seoul, Tokyo R246 and Hong Kong all normal and reverse with all four cars, after which point I was one race short of 7375. It shouldn't be much of an issue repeating this; it could be useful having a 1-shy-of-7375 game archived. Would you have any issues with Seoul being a possible problem track due to being too short?
My 10,000 B-spec point quest is coming along nicely. I've done all the city and original courses and am about to start the world circuits. After 152 races (counting Nurburgring as four track point races) I'm at 8965/100/89/89, and collected the +14 as expected on race number 145. I'm probably going to save Beginner's Course for last hoping that a 9900+ B-Spec driver can pull off the win with the 350Z.
BobK
Premium
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- Massachusetts, USA
Next experiment on Super Speedway:
The starting point was the game with 7051 B-Spec points, all collected on Nurburgring. I used the Toyota RSC Raid Rally Car (RSC-B). The procedure was to reset the machine, enter the race, leave the pace at 3, turn on overtake before the start of the race. I ran 11 races at difficulties 0 through -10. Times are seconds behind the winner or ahead of second place, depending on loss or win.
Difficulty 0: 4th, 0.618 seconds, 7062 (+11)
-1: 4th, 1.143, 7062 (+11)
-2: 3rd, 2.588, 7061 (+10)
-3: 1st, 0.580, 7064 (+13)
-4: 2nd, 0.305, 7063 (+12)
-5: 1st, 0.127, 7064 (+13)
-6: 2nd, 0.093, 7062 (+11)
-7: 1st, 2.361, 7064 (+13)
-8: 1st, 0.876, 7064 (+13)
-9: 1st, 4.691, 7063 (+12)
-10: 1st, 9.054, 7063 (+12)
Immediately after the -9 difficulty race I ran 10 B-Spec practice laps to see if a course point might be collected but the total stayed at 7063. I did the same thing after the -10 difficulty race and again, no change in the points. I reran the -6 race, getting the same identical result (2nd by 0.093, +11) then ran ten practice laps except this time I gained two additional points, bringing the total up to 7064. Lastly I reran the -4 race, same identical result, and ten practice laps. No gain.
Some fractions may have been collected in the practices but there's no way to tell at this point short of running 25 more races to get to the 7375 checkpoint. I find it interesting that the practice after the -6 race appears to have collected two more course points while the other practices didn't gain anything, but I really don't know what to make of it.
So again, winning is better than losing, and winning by a little is better than winning by a lot. But sheesh, 4.7 seconds is not what I'd call winning by a lot. Maybe the allowable margin of victory is related to the length of the course? Sounds reasonable to me, but who really knows?
I might retry some of these races with different paces, particularly the -4 and -6 at pace 4 and the -9 and -10 at pace 2.
Followup note: A 9206 B-Spec driver pulled off Family Cup wins with the 350Z on Beginners Course both normal and reverse, using R5 tires and pace 5.
The starting point was the game with 7051 B-Spec points, all collected on Nurburgring. I used the Toyota RSC Raid Rally Car (RSC-B). The procedure was to reset the machine, enter the race, leave the pace at 3, turn on overtake before the start of the race. I ran 11 races at difficulties 0 through -10. Times are seconds behind the winner or ahead of second place, depending on loss or win.
Difficulty 0: 4th, 0.618 seconds, 7062 (+11)
-1: 4th, 1.143, 7062 (+11)
-2: 3rd, 2.588, 7061 (+10)
-3: 1st, 0.580, 7064 (+13)
-4: 2nd, 0.305, 7063 (+12)
-5: 1st, 0.127, 7064 (+13)
-6: 2nd, 0.093, 7062 (+11)
-7: 1st, 2.361, 7064 (+13)
-8: 1st, 0.876, 7064 (+13)
-9: 1st, 4.691, 7063 (+12)
-10: 1st, 9.054, 7063 (+12)
Immediately after the -9 difficulty race I ran 10 B-Spec practice laps to see if a course point might be collected but the total stayed at 7063. I did the same thing after the -10 difficulty race and again, no change in the points. I reran the -6 race, getting the same identical result (2nd by 0.093, +11) then ran ten practice laps except this time I gained two additional points, bringing the total up to 7064. Lastly I reran the -4 race, same identical result, and ten practice laps. No gain.
Some fractions may have been collected in the practices but there's no way to tell at this point short of running 25 more races to get to the 7375 checkpoint. I find it interesting that the practice after the -6 race appears to have collected two more course points while the other practices didn't gain anything, but I really don't know what to make of it.
So again, winning is better than losing, and winning by a little is better than winning by a lot. But sheesh, 4.7 seconds is not what I'd call winning by a lot. Maybe the allowable margin of victory is related to the length of the course? Sounds reasonable to me, but who really knows?
I might retry some of these races with different paces, particularly the -4 and -6 at pace 4 and the -9 and -10 at pace 2.
Followup note: A 9206 B-Spec driver pulled off Family Cup wins with the 350Z on Beginners Course both normal and reverse, using R5 tires and pace 5.
I have the same feeling about the sector arrow being indirectly associated with Battle points. This is reinforced by my attempts to earn a double bonus from the machine points on the 2nd and 3rd races - the strategy was similar, but the arrows weren't helping.
I suppose it would help to know if we are trying to earn points, trying not to lose points, or a combination of both. Assume that a high G skid around the turns on Super Speedway is bad. Would I earn points in the straights and not on the corners, or would the corners whittle away at the points I had already earned?
I find it interesting that refusing the difficult car might lead to earning 0 points. The JP author mentions line-ups, but I figured he was trying to bury the faster car deeper in the line-up. I have wondered if line-up had an influence on points, but the evidence has been fairly sketchy.
For the Beginner race I have a possible explanation. The 350Z A is just within the D-1 sub-class. If I remember correctly, if I enter it in the JP Championship with the required sports tires, then it earned C class points. I haven't tried switching classes in the setup menu before a race with B-spec, I'm not sure how this would influence the points earned. For instance, what would happen if I upgraded my tires and reduced the ballast in the pit in a long race like Sarthe? Could I collect +26 points by crossing the class line?
Soul might be a reasonable choice, I don't remember anyone finding lost points there. I reviewed the stubborn track spreadsheet and noticed that a point was dropped for Class D in the forward direction. I was thinking the best tracks would be the ones where no points were dropped despite 5th or 6th place finishes. Hong Kong looks like a very good course, so does Opera Paris. However, if you make reasonable choices there shouldn't be a problem. You probably won't have the time or interest level to test every track, just do the best job possible on anything that is tested.
Very interesting results, especially with the practice after FC-9, FC-10, and FC-6. I would have expected that the missing points from a 1st place finish may have been course points on this track, but finding 2 course points after the second place finish is... very interesting.
Procedure Note: In the early days of B-spec I was trying to collect points 1 at a time and noticed that on some tracks the B-spec driver started collecting points as soon as he had control of the vehicle, and well short of the starting line. I figured the B-spec driver probably collected course points after the race while the other cars completed the last lap. For this reason I always wait for the game to kick the driver off the course after the race.
How many course points are collected when practicing for two laps + run off? Is there a win bonus that must be earned in order to collect all 9 points? Is there really a bonus, or is something else going on? I was having serious doubts about the importance of a close win when collecting floating points. Maybe a close finish is indirectly associated with more points in a manner similar to sector arrows. Have you ever noticed a difference in points when your B-spec driver strikes another vehicle hard enough that it would have earned a rally type penalty? What must be done to collect the points when they are dropped? If I had collected most of the points from Super Speedway, but didn't keep records, how could I be sure I had cleaned up all remaining points? Again, you don't need to try to answer all these questions, but maybe you can answer a few if the opportunity is available.
Winning is better than losing, but this is a fairly recent discovery despite the obvious conclusion.
Winning by a little appears to be better than winning by a lot, but the data has been so inconsistant that I suspect something else might be the determining factor. However, I had a very difficult time collecting the last couple of T-battle points from Suzuka Circuit, I repeated that track several times until I finally finished with a very slim margin and earned the expected points.
I suppose it would help to know if we are trying to earn points, trying not to lose points, or a combination of both. Assume that a high G skid around the turns on Super Speedway is bad. Would I earn points in the straights and not on the corners, or would the corners whittle away at the points I had already earned?
I find it interesting that refusing the difficult car might lead to earning 0 points. The JP author mentions line-ups, but I figured he was trying to bury the faster car deeper in the line-up. I have wondered if line-up had an influence on points, but the evidence has been fairly sketchy.
For the Beginner race I have a possible explanation. The 350Z A is just within the D-1 sub-class. If I remember correctly, if I enter it in the JP Championship with the required sports tires, then it earned C class points. I haven't tried switching classes in the setup menu before a race with B-spec, I'm not sure how this would influence the points earned. For instance, what would happen if I upgraded my tires and reduced the ballast in the pit in a long race like Sarthe? Could I collect +26 points by crossing the class line?
Soul might be a reasonable choice, I don't remember anyone finding lost points there. I reviewed the stubborn track spreadsheet and noticed that a point was dropped for Class D in the forward direction. I was thinking the best tracks would be the ones where no points were dropped despite 5th or 6th place finishes. Hong Kong looks like a very good course, so does Opera Paris. However, if you make reasonable choices there shouldn't be a problem. You probably won't have the time or interest level to test every track, just do the best job possible on anything that is tested.
Very interesting results, especially with the practice after FC-9, FC-10, and FC-6. I would have expected that the missing points from a 1st place finish may have been course points on this track, but finding 2 course points after the second place finish is... very interesting.
Procedure Note: In the early days of B-spec I was trying to collect points 1 at a time and noticed that on some tracks the B-spec driver started collecting points as soon as he had control of the vehicle, and well short of the starting line. I figured the B-spec driver probably collected course points after the race while the other cars completed the last lap. For this reason I always wait for the game to kick the driver off the course after the race.
How many course points are collected when practicing for two laps + run off? Is there a win bonus that must be earned in order to collect all 9 points? Is there really a bonus, or is something else going on? I was having serious doubts about the importance of a close win when collecting floating points. Maybe a close finish is indirectly associated with more points in a manner similar to sector arrows. Have you ever noticed a difference in points when your B-spec driver strikes another vehicle hard enough that it would have earned a rally type penalty? What must be done to collect the points when they are dropped? If I had collected most of the points from Super Speedway, but didn't keep records, how could I be sure I had cleaned up all remaining points? Again, you don't need to try to answer all these questions, but maybe you can answer a few if the opportunity is available.
Winning is better than losing, but this is a fairly recent discovery despite the obvious conclusion.
Winning by a little appears to be better than winning by a lot, but the data has been so inconsistant that I suspect something else might be the determining factor. However, I had a very difficult time collecting the last couple of T-battle points from Suzuka Circuit, I repeated that track several times until I finally finished with a very slim margin and earned the expected points.
SportWagon
Premium
- 1,822
- Punkeydoodles Corners, Ontario, Canada. (aka GT2t
You definitely cannot change your ballast in a pit stop. There is no facility presented to allow you to do so.Orion_SR
Now tires is a trickier issue. The game appears to allow you to change categories (simulation/normal, sports, racing), but in fact does not actually perform such a change.
I once started on N1's at the Sarthe Mille Miglia Race, and switched to S3's at my necessary fuel stop, but the tires were still going strong many laps later when I stopped again (to confirm that the game claimed my current tires were S3's in the menu). This was in A-spec, but if you do it in B-spec, the box at the top right of the screen indicates dashes for such a tire change, I believe. In my A-spec race it definitely didn't seem to "keep current", however, since my tires went back to blue. I think I have posts at this board about this.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1954992#post1954992
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1949247#post1949247
You can, however, change tires within a category. E.g. start with R-1 and switch to a more effective combination, which would earn fewer A-spec points, at your first stop. You then collect A-spec points based entirely on the original tires (assuming you A-spec'd the entire race). (And, for A-spec, it's only your front tires that are assessed, allowing toleration of strange performance; note that the game won't ever let you fit tires from different categories).
What might change a car's B-spec category during a race, or a long set of races, is the dirty oil and/or engine break-in. Someone trying to clean up points might want to get themselves a nice shiney new [R]350Z, or use something even more powerful.
Thanks for keeping me honest SportWagon. You are right - of course. Thanks for the heads-up on the tire changes, I won't waste my time with cross-category tire changes. I think I can peak-tune a couple of cars to take advantage of a break-in power boost. How long does that take, and how much boost is gained for each class? Also, there is a large difference between R1 and R5 tires, maybe that change will have an impact.
Actually, this is probably not a productive line of investigation. More to the point is that I don't think anyone has tried playing many upgrade games with B-spec. BobK's trial earning +0 points on fresh tracks is a little curious. I guess replication is the next step, then a little testing on "normal" tracks.
Actually, this is probably not a productive line of investigation. More to the point is that I don't think anyone has tried playing many upgrade games with B-spec. BobK's trial earning +0 points on fresh tracks is a little curious. I guess replication is the next step, then a little testing on "normal" tracks.
Orion_SR
Stepping in from nowhere here, but from hundreds and hundreds of runs on the test track for 300 MPH tuning, I would say that the break in period for most cars is somewhere between 60-120 Km (37-74). In my experience, I have gone the fastest after about 80-100 km, but I don't know how much this period would vary from class to class nor the amount of boost gained. It'd be a useful test though...
FormulaGT
BobK
Premium
- 7,020
- Massachusetts, USA
I thought I'd report on something that happened a few days ago.
As I mentioned previously, I tested the contention that an 8500 B-Spec driver could win the Opel Speedster races. I bought a Speedster Turbo and all upgrades, and entered the series. The tracks in the series are Grand Valley, Autumn Ring Reverse, Suzuka East, Infineon Sports Car and Seattle.
I had already collected all track points for Grand Valley and Seattle, but not the other three.
The driver (8783/100/87/87 at the time) won on Grand Valley and Seattle, came in third on Autumn Ring Reverse, Suzuka East and Infineon.
I reset the machine and ran the Lupo/Miata/RSC/350Z (the "quartet") on Autumn Ring Reverse to collect the track points, saved the game and ran the Opel Speedster in the race again. He won Autumn Ring and still lost the other two.
I reset the game again then used the quartet to collect the track points on Suzuka East, saved, and sent the Speedster out again. He won both Suzuka and Infineon. Just to clarify, he won Suzuka East and Infineon after collecting all track points from both Autumn Ring Reverse and Suzuka East.
This brings up a couple questions. Is it just a coincidence that collecting all the T-points on autumn ring resulted in a Speedster win on Autumn Ring and not the other two tracks? Would I have had the same result if I had collected the 51 T-points from say Laguna Seca then ran Autumn Ring? Did I perhaps just simply determine the exact point at which the B-spec driver goes from loser to winner on these tracks in this series? If I'd collected the T-points from say Laguna Seca and one of the Fuji tracks would I have been able to win all three of the races? Interesting speculations, but I don't have any answers.
Hmm, good point about the 350Z probably changing classes with the tire change. If that dropped it down to class C and I'd already collected all course points for class C, then of course the gain would be 0. But only if I actually ran the race on the sports tires, which I did not. I'd have guessed that points would be determined by the car as it's raced, not when the opposing field is selected. I'll mess around with that some more, I'll also doublecheck on that refusing five or six races thing. My highest priority right now, though, is finishing up the 10,000 point effort; only 48 races to go.
A few notes of interest on that, by the way. At Fuji 80's the Lupo jackrabbited to second place at the start. I dropped the pace to 1 before the first turn and kept overtake off to make sure he didn't take the lead early in the first lap, which would almost certainly have resulted in a huge runaway win and reduced points. I upped the pace to 3 on the second lap, overtook at the start of the main straight, and got the +13. Also, the Miata(?) on Motorland jumped the gun a bit on the rolling start and crossed the start line in 4th place and collected all track points. I didn't rerun either of these races since I was coming up on the 29th race of the 29-race cycle anyway and the opportunity to check if all fractions had been collected (they were). So maybe early overtaking isn't nearly as critical as we have been thinking it is, at least for track points, and at least on some tracks. It certainly does seem to matter for floating points on Nurburgring though.
That FC-6 with the RSC and the missed course points on Super Speedway has been bugging me. So I tried it again this morning and carefully watched the race and replay to see if any driving mistakes were made. There was nothing obvious that I could see; no bouncing off the wall or anything. So that one remains a mystery to me as well.
As I mentioned previously, I tested the contention that an 8500 B-Spec driver could win the Opel Speedster races. I bought a Speedster Turbo and all upgrades, and entered the series. The tracks in the series are Grand Valley, Autumn Ring Reverse, Suzuka East, Infineon Sports Car and Seattle.
I had already collected all track points for Grand Valley and Seattle, but not the other three.
The driver (8783/100/87/87 at the time) won on Grand Valley and Seattle, came in third on Autumn Ring Reverse, Suzuka East and Infineon.
I reset the machine and ran the Lupo/Miata/RSC/350Z (the "quartet") on Autumn Ring Reverse to collect the track points, saved the game and ran the Opel Speedster in the race again. He won Autumn Ring and still lost the other two.
I reset the game again then used the quartet to collect the track points on Suzuka East, saved, and sent the Speedster out again. He won both Suzuka and Infineon. Just to clarify, he won Suzuka East and Infineon after collecting all track points from both Autumn Ring Reverse and Suzuka East.
This brings up a couple questions. Is it just a coincidence that collecting all the T-points on autumn ring resulted in a Speedster win on Autumn Ring and not the other two tracks? Would I have had the same result if I had collected the 51 T-points from say Laguna Seca then ran Autumn Ring? Did I perhaps just simply determine the exact point at which the B-spec driver goes from loser to winner on these tracks in this series? If I'd collected the T-points from say Laguna Seca and one of the Fuji tracks would I have been able to win all three of the races? Interesting speculations, but I don't have any answers.
Hmm, good point about the 350Z probably changing classes with the tire change. If that dropped it down to class C and I'd already collected all course points for class C, then of course the gain would be 0. But only if I actually ran the race on the sports tires, which I did not. I'd have guessed that points would be determined by the car as it's raced, not when the opposing field is selected. I'll mess around with that some more, I'll also doublecheck on that refusing five or six races thing. My highest priority right now, though, is finishing up the 10,000 point effort; only 48 races to go.
A few notes of interest on that, by the way. At Fuji 80's the Lupo jackrabbited to second place at the start. I dropped the pace to 1 before the first turn and kept overtake off to make sure he didn't take the lead early in the first lap, which would almost certainly have resulted in a huge runaway win and reduced points. I upped the pace to 3 on the second lap, overtook at the start of the main straight, and got the +13. Also, the Miata(?) on Motorland jumped the gun a bit on the rolling start and crossed the start line in 4th place and collected all track points. I didn't rerun either of these races since I was coming up on the 29th race of the 29-race cycle anyway and the opportunity to check if all fractions had been collected (they were). So maybe early overtaking isn't nearly as critical as we have been thinking it is, at least for track points, and at least on some tracks. It certainly does seem to matter for floating points on Nurburgring though.
That FC-6 with the RSC and the missed course points on Super Speedway has been bugging me. So I tried it again this morning and carefully watched the race and replay to see if any driving mistakes were made. There was nothing obvious that I could see; no bouncing off the wall or anything. So that one remains a mystery to me as well.
Hypothesis: Machine, Course, and Battle points/skills apply equally to all cars, tracks, and races.
Implications: There are no points/skills that are specific to FF/MR, Normal/Race, or Muscle/Roadster. In order to master Nurburgring in a specific car, all tracks must be raced (because T-battle also influences course skill) with all 4 classes. A B-spec driver with only and all points available to A class cars will not pass as well as a B-driver who has collected all 7051 points available from the Nurburgring tunings.
There is no direct evidence to support or refute this hypothesis. This hypothesis was developed based on Developer Theory - guessing the programmers intent and methods for implementation. There have been no experiments to directly or indirectly test these conclusions.
Upgrade Games: This is a new area of study and I am unwilling to speculate on the implications until more data is available. I don't think we will find a method to improve B-spec point collection, but there is a strong possiblilty that we might learn something that should be avoided. The questions I would most like to see answered are:
What upgrade or refusal methods would cause points to be lost?
What must be done to correct the mistakes and collect all the points?
How would this apply to people who aren't sure if points are stuck on Super Speedway and don't remember what they did before?
Implications: There are no points/skills that are specific to FF/MR, Normal/Race, or Muscle/Roadster. In order to master Nurburgring in a specific car, all tracks must be raced (because T-battle also influences course skill) with all 4 classes. A B-spec driver with only and all points available to A class cars will not pass as well as a B-driver who has collected all 7051 points available from the Nurburgring tunings.
There is no direct evidence to support or refute this hypothesis. This hypothesis was developed based on Developer Theory - guessing the programmers intent and methods for implementation. There have been no experiments to directly or indirectly test these conclusions.
Upgrade Games: This is a new area of study and I am unwilling to speculate on the implications until more data is available. I don't think we will find a method to improve B-spec point collection, but there is a strong possiblilty that we might learn something that should be avoided. The questions I would most like to see answered are:
What upgrade or refusal methods would cause points to be lost?
What must be done to correct the mistakes and collect all the points?
How would this apply to people who aren't sure if points are stuck on Super Speedway and don't remember what they did before?
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