Obtaining Better B-Spec Stats ??

[SportWagon]

And, of course, the Bspec tester game should have used up a year's worth of game days so as to unlock all tracks. That gives one some latitude for getting licenses, earning money, winning cars, etc. One might even end up "wasting" some days deliberately.

 

[Orion_SR]

So you seem to suggest I should create one other reference game using Nurburgring only to get 7051/100/70/70.

After that, a class tester could be created from that by picking three other tracks and completing 3 of classes on each (omitting a different class on each).

I do have tentative plans to do this sort of thing. Thanks for firming up the idea WRT the last one.

Actually, I would suggest finding something else to do. Maxing B-spec points isn't worth the effort.

WRT Nurburgring and the 7000 points; is it not the case that most of those points can be won at other tracks instead? E.g. my first Roadster Enduro got me +632/+11/+6/+6 (at Tsukuba). Doesn't "floating" mean "not attached to any particular track"?

One advantage of the Nurburgring, I can see, is that the cars travel the furthest distance in two laps, and perhaps that distance travelled is important.

Yes, the points can be earned anywhere, in theory. It would require the correct cars and tunings. In my test game, I tried to earn only machine points by B-specking a rally track using photo-mode (Test Course would have been a better choice). I was unable to collect many of the points with the RSC A, and had to modify a Subaru WRX STi many times to collect the same points. I was able to collect all except about 60 machine points using photo-mode, and finally ended up returning to the Ring to get the last batch of points from the Miata C.

Several other tracks also gave up points for the Miata C, but they aren't open until later in the game. The point is, the tracks are different when providing floating points for some cars and tunings, I don't know why. Nurburgring is generous with points, is open on day one, and is very long. BTW, I quit all except 2 or 3 of my Nurburgring races just after passing the leader, and about one lap.

One way to get a lot of points from normal races is to repeat the JP championship with lots of cars and tunings. That series can be milked for tons of points and money at the same time. However, the only known method of collecting all of the floating points, is to use the JP cars and tunings (Turbo4 on the 350Z) on Nurburgring, and repeat the races until no more points are earned after several attempts.

 

[SportWagon]

Well, I'm certainly unlikely to get 100% game completion, so Bspec seems like a consolation prize.

Thanks for all the explanation.

 

[SportWagon]

Actually, I would suggest finding something else to do. Maxing B-spec points isn't worth the effort.

I got to 9907/100/99/99 on the long weekend, and have about 8 tracks to go, some of which might yield no points (e.g. Fuji80 and Fuji90).

After I've finished my "first pass", I'll see where I am, and evaluate what to do next. Bring my Aspec total up to my Bspec total maybe?

 

[SportWagon]

I disagree with the proposal to merge this thread (Obtaining Better B-Spec Stats ??) with ( B-Spec "Scientific" Study). I think having two is a good idea.

This thread here more of a "scratchpad", whereas the other (up until now) is "cleaner", with more conclusions and less distracting (sometimes erroneous) fluff. (Apart from anything else, that one is still relatively short, whereas it takes a long time to wade through this thread here).

Perhaps the best idea would be to post cross-references in the first post of both these threads, indicating that this one (Obtaining Better B-Spec Stats ??) is the preferred place for open discussion and questions relating to one's own particular Bspec situation, while we should try to allow the other one ( B-Spec "Scientific" Study) to remain short, and only post there things of interest to everybody. (Well, everybody with a somewhat excessive interest in Bspec, like me).

Or perhaps you, Orion_SR, would like to start a third thread -- Definitive Bspec Conclusions, or something . . .

Thinking about it, I think it would be a good thing if Orion_SR started a reference thread. That way he would have control of the first item, and could post links to other threads, and keep updating the first item with "the truth". It should be stickied, and probably would not be a good place for rambling discussion, although probably that couldn't be avoided.

In other threads, he could simply give a short answer, with a link to his reference thread.

 

[sMondo]

👍 Glad to see this thread is still active.
I've run all the tracks and finished with 9928 points.
Skill = 99-99-98. Looks as if I'll have to hunt down the rest.

 

[Orion_SR]

👍 Glad to see this thread is still active.
I've run all the tracks and finished with 9928 points.
Skill = 99-99-98. Looks as if I'll have to hunt down the rest.

Do all 8 tunings on Nurburgring a few times. You still have floating points availible (machine skill < 100).

 

[Mad Marky]

I'm gonna give this a go later

 

[Orion_SR]

I'm gonna give this a go later

As far as I know, no one with the PAL version of the game has ever reached B-spec 10000.

 

[Mad Marky]

As far as I know, no one with the PAL version of the game has ever reached B-spec 10000.

I doubt I'm good enough anyway but just wanna try & get the B-Spec up, I'm on about 6050 at the moment (dunno what the 3 splits are).

 

[sMondo]

Do all 8 tunings on Nurburgring a few times. You still have floating points availible (machine skill < 100).

8 tunings??? I thought there was "only" 4.
Hmmm must have missed something somewhere.

 

[Mad Marky]

8 tunings??? I thought there was "only" 4.
Hmmm must have missed something somewhere.

A-1: Volkswagen Lupo 1.4 '02, default;

A-2: Mazda Roadster 1800 RS (NB) '04, default

B-1: Mazda Roadster 1800 RS (NB) '04, default + supercharger

B-2: Mazda Roadster 1800 RS (NB) '04, default + stage 3 turbo

C-1: Toyota RSC Rally Raid '02, default

C-2: Toyota RSC Rally Raid '02, default + medium racing tires

D-1: Nissan Fairlady Z Concept LM Race Car '02, default

D-2: Nissan Fairlady Z Concept LM Race Car '02, default + stage 3 turbo

I count 8

 

[sMondo]

Ok I see now, some how I missed the part about running the Miata at default
and instead went straight to supercharger. PLus no stage 3 turbo on the Miata
or 350Z. And I cain't remember if I had default tires on the RSC or the mediums.
I know it was one or the other and that it was all I ran,never both sets.

BTW...Thanks

 

[ANK]

After finishing running all the cars round the Nurburgring i ended up with these figures.
7029 (22 short) 99 (1 short) 69 (1 short) 70
I then ran all the courses with the Lupo and got these figures
7767/99/77/77 So with the Lupo i obtained 738/0/8/7
I then ran all the courses with the Mazda and got these figures
8503/99/84/85 So with the Mazda i obtained 736/0/7/8
And thats as far as i have got up to now. Do the figures look about right for the Lupo and the Mazda?

 

[Orion_SR]

Do the figures look about right for the Lupo and the Mazda?

They look reasonable, except it's a little hard to tell since you were a little short on the machine points. Did you use the turbo3 or turbo4 on the 350Z? I suggest the turbo4, it worked well for me. BTW, it's pretty hard to get the battle skill higher than the course skill. Nice work.

Do the math to figure out how you're doing. See the following link for more details and precise numbers. Basically, there are 3000 points (which includes a fraction more than the 51 collected on Nurburgring) to be collected on 58 tracks using 4 cars. Overall, you should collect 750 points per car. Since you are now 2 races past half way, you should have aproximately 8525/100/85/85 (22 short). However, it's hard to tell if you dropped any fractions along the way - the points aren't solid.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1686790&postcount=32

 

[SportWagon]

I got to 9998/100/99/99

A mild relief when the last tracks I did (Seoul and SeoulR) delivered 65 missing points, but frustration when the odd two points didn't materialize.

I tried a variety of Miatas around Nurburgring, but nothing new popped up.

Do you have any idea what the granularity of the skill points awarded is? That is, what is the smallest increment you can get or not get? (A question would be, how likely is it that the two points are spread out in tiny fractions across many tracks?)

I would suspect the points are tracked in a bitmap, therefore as whole numbers, and scaled to give the 10000 point result. Or do you have a different hypothesis?

I think I'll do some driving myself for a while. I went from day 1111 to 1511 in my quest, but not all 400 days were Family Cup races. I did a few money-making enduroes, and bought a few cars too. Next weekend I might get some more memory cards and then think about starting a new game from scratch for Bspec analysis.

 

[Orion_SR]

I tried a variety of Miatas around Nurburgring, but nothing new popped up.

Do you have any idea what the granularity of the skill points awarded is? That is, what is the smallest increment you can get or not get? (A question would be, how likely is it that the two points are spread out in tiny fractions across many tracks?)

I would suspect the points are tracked in a bitmap, therefore as whole numbers, and scaled to give the 10000 point result. Or do you have a different hypothesis?

Your missing points are probably track battle points which influence battle skill and course skill at the same time. Also, my experience was that 2 missing points are frequently an indication that one race on one track wasn't finished quite to the standard expected for all battle points to be awarded. The most like canidates for a missing track points are;

High Speed Ring (maybe it was Super Speedway) with the 350Z - that was a stuborn combination for me, no other data.
Grand Valley East reverse with the Miata - the JP authors missing point.
Short Courses - I repeated any race less that 2 minute long as insurance against missing points.

During B-spec test games, careful records are kept of the points after each race so it is possible to deduce where the points were lost by examining certain milestones where the fractions are 0 or small enough to detect a dropped fraction.

Even if you don't have careful records, it is still useful to check the points between each race. Assuming all floating points have been collected (this is why I encourage maxing the floating points on the Ring so strongly) then;

1. On new tracks, 13 points will be collected (sometimes 12 or 14, depending on the fractions.
2. Tracks without 8 or 9 course points might still have 4 or 5 battle points because of a mismatched race.
3. Sometimes 11 points are collected because the race wasn't perfect enough for that track. But if the course points were present, then there must still be a few battle points on the track. Repeat the race to avoid problems like #4.
4. If 2 points are collected, then maybe these are points from a previous race like #3. Or maybe the course points were previously collected as in #2, and now only 2 points were earned, which still leaves 2 points on the track similar to #3.

I know that points are divided into very small parts. Based on an early analogy relating the collection of B-spec points to hippie beads on a string, I'll refer to these as B-spec Beads. B-spec beads can be no bigger than 1/29th of a B-spec point. In other words, collect 29 level beads to earn 1 level point. Fortunally, level beads are very had to detect and easy to ignore in favor of fractions.

I was very sceptical about some of the JP authors numbers and theories when I started my test. However, my data confirms almost everything he stated. The main exception is that I use fractions, and he used the decimal equivilant (I think, I don't read Japanese). Decimals lead to huge errors in predictions quickly. The JP author identified floating points (7000) and track points (3000). I counted the 4 current classes for points separately (F-Machine, F-Battle, T-Course, and T-Battle).

The best evidence of the fractions is the point progressions of my data. I'll refer you to an previous post for details.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1645868&postcount=77

My first clue was when I observed a skill change without a point change. My only explanation was that fractions must be possible. The reason 29ths of a point are required is because the 3000 track points are divided evenly on 58 tracks. The points have been counted, I can find no other explanation for the data.

Math Review
58/2=29
58*4=232
Track:3000/232= 12 and 27/29
Course:2000/232= 8 and 18/29
T-Battle:1000/232= 4 and 9/29

It's hard to predict how likely these little peices are to be spread over many tracks. If points are counted systematically, then a status check can be made every 29 tracks. It's difficult to tell if tiny fractions are lost in between. Lets see..., # of people with 10000 points (2) / # of people who tried (a few dozen) = very poor statistics. I believe there is a huge selection and reporting bias in the data. I suspect the beads are bitmapped, and therefore there are at least 290,000 B-spec beads. We need a map.

 

[sMondo]

I got to 9998/100/99/99

I tried a variety of Miatas around Nurburgring, but nothing new popped up.

Hope this helps........
I found a few extra points and my last machine point using the VW ghia(?) at
Nuringberg.

Also try the Z Act at the very last city track in photo mode. I picked up some points there also. Be sure to do it in normal, as the car can not make it up the big
hill in reverse.

 

[SportWagon]

Er, sMondo, I already have my last machine point.

I kept detailed paper notes, but know I make mistakes when I transcribe them to my machine-readable logs.

This weekend's project will be updating my machine-readable version (adding days 1377 to 1530 or so), and then attempting to double-check that machine readable version so I have no more mistakes than are in my paper notes.

After that I can attempt to look for anomalies, although I never did max the floating points first, so that could be difficult. I'm also having difficulty seeing how 12 27/29 sometimes turns into 14. Though I did see 14 points occasionally, in addition to 12. (I.e. 12's which didn't seem to cough up an extra 1 when I managed a very close result). In my case, though, they might sometimes have been missing floating points finally appearing. E.g. I'm pretty sure I got 14 points at Sarthe when my machine points finally went from 99 to 100. (Not certain that's when my machine points went to 100; I'd not been watching that number carefully since it seemed stuck on 99).

A problem is I didn't keep a track-by-track breakdown of points earned in series races prior to my maxing attempt. It's difficult to do that, actually, since you need to exit the series, go home, note the points, and then re-enter the series.

 

[SportWagon]

My first clue was when I observed a skill change without a point change. My only explanation was that fractions must be possible.

You mean you had an increase in one of Machine Skill, Course Skill or Battle Skill without an increase in overall, um, B-spec Skill?

Those are the names used in the status display....
http://www.users.cloud9.net/~sus321/cars/AllGold.jpg
(edit: note, that's not a screen of mine; it just happened to be handy.)

I was watching pretty closely, but never ever observed that. Not meaning to imply you were wrong, just saying I didn't observe it. (And clarifying what you said, I think).

 

[sMondo]

Er, sMondo, I already have my last machine point.

Was not trying to get you the machine point,but the last 2 skill points. 👍

 

[Orion_SR]

Level Points = Overall B-spec skill level , reduce confusion over what a B-point might be - B-spec points or Battle Points? Used for precise descriptions more than general use.

I'm also having difficulty seeing how 12 27/29 sometimes turns into 14. Though I did see 14 points occasionally, in addition to 12.

Me too. 14 showed up twice in the JP authors data and regularly in his predictions. But I can't see how that would happen twice when he made the 7051 landmark if it was related to missing floating points. Maybe there's something we're missing. It is difficult to comment with authority since I collected my course points and battle points separately. However, the fractions tend to regroup when whole points from a particular type are collected so they can influence skill.

66 28/29 course + 33 and 28/29 T-battle does not equal 1 course skill (or 1 battle skill), despite displaying an increase of 100 level points. See the JP data for races 65 and 66. We both predicted the skills to increase to 74 at 7400, and can only explain the results with the whole-point-for-skills theory. This finding was replicated during my T-battle point collection.

Due to this regrouping, it might be possible to collect 9 course points and 5 battle points to get 14 level points. However, no one has ever made a clean sweep of the tracks or collected enough data for analysis. The JP authors data discovered anomolies early that did not match predictions made before the game. Check the following link for the JP prediction table for a perfect collection. However, I was unable to recreate the formula used to make these predictions based on fraction theory. Since the JP author dropped points early in the collection, it is difficult to refine our predictions.

http://www.geocities.jp/j8ba7yrg/gt4/3000_1.html

You mean you had an increase in one of Machine Skill, Course Skill or Battle Skill without an increase in overall, um, B-spec Skill?

Yep. Pretty weird, huh? I am positive I saw this because I always played with auto-save off and was able to recreate the experiment. I was stunned at the time. Like I said, it is very difficult to detect dropped fractions. I could never find where the JP author dropped the last point.

sMondo, he is missing battle points. They can't be earned unless he races. Also, if you earn machine points from special cars with photo mode or practice, you will probably have to find a similar car and tuning to collect the battle points by racing.

 

[sMondo]

ok, good point.

 

[ANK]

I got to 9998/100/99/99

Thats got to hurt hope you find them soon.
Just broke the 9000 point barrier last night. I hope i don't end up in the same situation as you although it seems like ending up a few points short is common.

 

[SportWagon]

Yep. Pretty weird, huh? I am positive I saw this because I always played with auto-save off and was able to recreate the experiment. I was stunned at the time. Like I said, it is very difficult to detect dropped fractions. I could never find where the JP author dropped the last point.

Wow, that is dedication.

One mildly unfortunate thing happened to me in my quest for max Bspec points.

Up until recently my main save, if you looked at it with, e.g. the GT3 browser, had a creation date the same as the North American release date. I'd copy it to other cards for backups, but only ever alter that save by saving from within the game. (Note, the creation date is not shown by the built-in PS2 browser).

My routine, on shutting down, is: copy slot 1 to slot 2, remove slot 1, copy slot 2 to slot 1 (giving two backup cards). Then, to make sure the copies were okay, I'd boot the card now in slot 1. Well, during my Bspec'ing I accidentally began playing with that game, so I thought for a few minutes and decided to overwrite my "main" save. It is sort of sad not have the release date creation date anymore.

Your posting reminded me of this because in GT4 you can't both save and recreate the situation, unless you were stopping the game and copying the card very frequently (unless you want to lose your garage).

Actually, a fanatic might use two PS2s to allow arbitrary mid-game backups to be made...

 

[ANK]

Well it did not take as long as i thought it would maxed out my b spec guy last night
After using all cars round Nurburgring i got 7029/99/69/70
Using the other 4 cars round every track i got 9978/99/99/99
No matter what car i used from the list i could not get the last 22 points so i just started using cars with different HP.
Ford SVT Lightninging with max HP + stage 3 weight reduction round the Nurburgring got me to 9999/100/99/99 after a few runs.
Final point found at Super speedway using Mazda MX5 with supercharger.
Hope this is some help to anybody falling a few points short.

 

[Orion_SR]

Final point found at Super speedway using Mazda MX5 with supercharger.

Well done. That's the first report of 10000 for a PAL version. Now I can retire and know I'm leaving this thread in good hands.

Nice stats, BTW.

 

[ANK]

Well done. That's the first report of 10000 for a PAL version. Now I can retire and know I'm leaving this thread in good hands.

Nice stats, BTW.

I doubt i am the first.
You can't retire you actually seem to know what you are talking about. I just tried to follow a list and made a mess of that. At the end i was just trying cars at random.

 

[slotcarrod]

Well it did not take as long as i thought it would maxed out my b spec guy last night
After using all cars round Nurburgring i got 7029/99/69/70
Using the other 4 cars round every track i got 9978/99/99/99
No matter what car i used from the list i could not get the last 22 points so i just started using cars with different HP.
Ford SVT Lightninging with max HP + stage 3 weight reduction round the Nurburgring got me to 9999/100/99/99 after a few runs.
Final point found at Super speedway using Mazda MX5 with supercharger.
Hope this is some help to anybody falling a few points short.

Congrats ANK! Good job! 👍

I look forward to maxing out Jaques B-Spec points. I hope I can find the missing points as easy as you did.

What colour helmet did your driver end up with, and is he a better driver?

 

[Orion_SR]

I doubt i am the first.

Actually, I am confident that you are the first PAL player to report maxing out the B-spec points on this board, and no other English language website has the information available here. Wear the laurel while it's still fresh. I'll admit that there must be a huge reporting bias in the data, but reaching 10000 B-spec points is still a rare accomplishment.

Your floating point observations seem to confirm Toga's original predicition that if the milestones were not reached before upgrading, then 7051 landmark would be difficult to reach. I have often criticized the JP tuning set for being weak in the middle and encourage people to experiment with other tunings. Any car or tuning can be used (in addition to or instead of the JP tuning set) on Nurburgring (or any single course with track points), and it won't change the expected landmark of 7051.

Your last track point seems to confirm predictions that battle fractions tend to get dropped on short tracks. I think I had trouble with the Super Speedway and the 350Z. Did you repeat many tracks during your first track point collection? Or target short tracks while looking for that lost point? Also, since your missing 22 floating points held thoughout the collection, how frequently did you collect 14 points on a single track?