Official Shift 2 Physics General Discussion Thread

  • Thread starter ///M-Spec
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Thanks ;)
Regarding your question I was just kidding ... if you didnt redeem the codes before then I think he will have no trouble in doing so and getting the extra content.
 
GumShoe
Sorry I worded that badly. I was trying to mean the reason that drivers get into full spin outs, not the reason the cars spin. I was sort of alluding to the lack of feel we have in games and the 'surprise' that isn't there, not to mention the change of forces on the body when the car lets go suddenly. It would be interesting to see someone drive a real GT car by remote control and see if spins are saved more frequently...
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I see; thanks for clarifying.

I think the opposite of your suggestion would be true. Driving to the limits is 90% 'seat of the pants' feel. Never driven a GT car, but I have plenty of autocross and track time in street cars and it is your inner ear not your eyes or ears that is responsible for feeling when the car is at the edge of adhesion. Without feeling those g-forces on our bodies, the subtle shift in the balance of the car as it transitions between grip and slip, the way it wobbles and squirms-- losing control would happen much more frequently without that.

A remote control driver would not only be slower than one in the driver's seat, but make far more mistakes. The only upside I can see is virtually no physical excretion from being in the car, which is considerable. That's why top drivers and also in stupendous shape. Athletes in very sense of the word.


M
 
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///M-Spec
I see; thanks for clarifying.

I think the opposite of your suggestion would be true. Driving to the limits is 90% 'seat of the pants' feel. Never driven a GT car, but I have plenty of autocross and track time in street cars and it is your inner ear not your eyes or ears that is responsible for feeling when the car is at the edge of adhesion. Without feeling those g-forces on our bodies, the subtle shift in the balance of the car as it transitions between grip and slip, the way it wobbles and squirms-- losing control would happen much more frequently without that.

A remote control driver would not only be slower than one in the driver's seat, but make far more mistakes. The only upside I can see is virtually no physical excretion from being in the car, which is considerable. That's why top drivers and also in stupendous shape. Athletes in very sense of the word.


M
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I think you're right there. Although losing control would be more frequent, total loss of control would probably be less, because the virtual driver is not dealing with all the changing forces in being past the limit and spinning (and the panic!), just the visual and FFB representation.
And as in games we can't 'feel' the limit like in real life (I think that's the hardest part of a racing game to simulate, that actual feeling of being at the limits of grip - Shift 2 (even forza 3 in some ways) does a pretty good job though, GT5 doesn't), we react a lot smoother and quicker.
 
MortICi
I wanted to see if I can explain this point. I think this is a proper game mechanic, from a physics perspective and a tire model perspective. If you ever have an opertunity to power slide a rear wheel drive car, watch what happens with the wheel. If you let it go it will naturally spin to its general countersteer point or basically point the wheels in the right direction (the tire wants to roll parallel to the direction/motion of the car) This is simulated in the game, rather than animating and the driver letting go of the wheel and catching it, its just shown that the driver is countersteering for you. When in reality the motion of the car is forcing the wheels to point in that direction.

I am not sure if I am being clear, but basically if you went into a slide, you would actually have to FIGHT the steering wheel to keep the wheels pointed straight with the car ( like so -> || ) but the natural tendacy of the tire is to go in the direction of the slide (so if you were taking a right hand turn the wheels will naturally pull to the left like so \\).

I hope you know what i mean, but this is a great and accurate representation, i don't know how it transfers to the wheel users, as I am using a Dpad, I am picking up a wheel today or tomorrow so i will let you know. I think in general once the natural countersteer is applied you onlly need to manipulate the throttle and light corrections (more or less counter steer) to steer the car where you want.

This translates into basically letting go of the wheel and letting the FFB do the work (need a really good wheel for this, as you can see in the video below the wheel spins very quickly), and catching it once it reaches its maximum point, and then using throttle and fine input to manage the car. This same principle can be applied to drifting.

See this video and watch the wheel as he goes into a slide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK-Smhl2TC4

Again I think this would just be hard to represent in the game (programming and animation wise) thus i think the simpler method was to just make the animation of countersteer.

I could be explaining this too far, but this to me seems like a proper game mechanic, physics model, and tire model. Based on my own experience from autox (91 MR2 Turbo and 04 WRX).
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So very true, not sure if its people who cant even drive a car yet or just ones who drive rubbish cars but you'd be amazed by the amount a good car does FOR YOU when driving!! Sometimes i take corners in my Alfa GTV V6 and i dont even know how i got out the otherside!! Shift 2 replicates this feeling as it should. The front wheels of a car are in contact with the road so will have the effects of that interaction....i think some people dont fully understand this as like i say maybe they have only ever drive computer games..

cue loads of 14 year old fanboys saying they have driven a real car......as they own GT5!! lol.
 
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Well, I was on the fence about Shift's physics at first. After the past week and getting ready to start the GT1 races I'm lovin the physics.

Anyone saying the cars stick like glue isn't driving hard enough. You can really push most cars pretty hard, but there is a thresehold where you're going to lose control.

I've just started to dig into the telementry for posting some autolog records and I'm quite surprised. You have real time tire temps, ride height, tire load, brake temp, and many more. Thats everything you need to tune a car exactly the way you want it(take note GT5).

I must say the physics mixed with the telemetry is brilliant.👍

I love watching my replays and seeing the car shifting weight and what alot of people say powersliding through corners, but its really "yawing" through the corners is awesome. Seems these features are kind of advanced for a console racer, but Shift 2 pulled it off.

Also something I've never seen in a game(have in IRL) is if your car is set-up a certain way it'll pull a wheel(front or rear) off the ground going through a turn. This example definitely shows that the physics is doing something right by simulating so much weight and grip transfer that a wheel hovers off the ground for a short time.

The physics are there. They maybe be different, but whose to say they're not real or simulating real. Are GT5, Forza, all the computer sims real or simulating real? Sure they are and so is Shift 2.
 
plate88
Well, I was on the fence about Shift's physics at first. After the past week and getting ready to start the GT1 races I'm lovin the physics.

Anyone saying the cars stick like glue isn't driving hard enough. You can really push most cars pretty hard, but there is a thresehold where you're going to lose control.

I've just started to dig into the telementry for posting some autolog records and I'm quite surprised. You have real time tire temps, ride height, tire load, brake temp, and many more. Thats everything you need to tune a car exactly the way you want it(take note GT5).

I must say the physics mixed with the telemetry is brilliant.👍

I love watching my replays and seeing the car shifting weight and what alot of people say powersliding through corners, but its really "yawing" through the corners is awesome. Seems these features are kind of advanced for a console racer, but Shift 2 pulled it off.

Also something I've never seen in a game(have in IRL) is if your car is set-up a certain way it'll pull a wheel(front or rear) off the ground going through a turn. This example definitely shows that the physics is doing something right by simulating so much weight and grip transfer that a wheel hovers off the ground for a short time.

The physics are there. They maybe be different, but whose to say they're not real or simulating real. Are GT5, Forza, all the computer sims real or simulating real? Sure they are and so is Shift 2.
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Absolutely love this post! amkes me wish i was at home now and not at work with the wife out so i could just play Shift 2 all day!!

The physics and the imersion of this game deserve so much credit IMO....glad others are noticing it also... real time tyre temps are brilliant, and there is an envelope on each car of which once you push too hard its all over. I noticed this on Spa with the famous s bend o rouge, i go storming down it in the GT1 maserati on lap 2 and stack it, try again and stack it.... so then i try to take it at a sensible speed and perfect, then slightly increase till your just pushing the envelope....and thats how it should be......some would of stacked it and blamed the game....... rewarding is not a strong enough word for this game..
 
I feel the same way -viper-, as a DS3 user the opening challenge already had me hating the game. Then I started racing in the slower cars, felt perfect... move up to level C 500-999 and it's garbage again. I've tried 3 separate cars (Challenger Concept, GTR R34, Exige) and all 3 even with completely different setups just felt horrible (the 4WD cars slide endlessly and fishtail more than RWD??). It's either tons of understeer or your sliding (NFS Pro Street had better physics) and just like the first shift every car seems to be rotating on a shish kabob stick.

On the other hand I love the options you have with tuning and purchasing parts. I came in expecting to be caught painting for hours, instead my main focus has been trying to find good part combonations (the best part of this game in my opinion), now only if the different setups made a difference.
 
Try lowering the steering lock in the tuning screen if you're using DS3. Also, some of the cars indeed have garbage setups. :D The Exige feels like a boat if you don't tune it. ;)
 
Was so close to buying SU2 but the sliding for better times is bugging me now that you mentioned it.

Having tried out for the GT Academy time trail spending hours on the same track to shave of milliseconds, this 4 wheel drifting for faster times does not impress me.

Might still buy it because it looks fun but I'll wait for the price to dramatically drop
tinram
here's an example of what i have gone through. This is not me.



How can you get the fastest lap time when you are sliding around corners?
This does not say good physics to me. This is what i have gone through with time attack series and decided that there is no saving this game. Please, no complaints about how he drives, because to get top times in time attack (at least in elite/hard) you have to be driving like this.

If you drive without sliding as how the best lap times should be, you will get nowhere close to the top times.
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tinram
here's an example of what i have gone through. This is not me.



How can you get the fastest lap time when you are sliding around corners?
This does not say good physics to me. This is what i have gone through with time attack series and decided that there is no saving this game. Please, no complaints about how he drives, because to get top times in time attack (at least in elite/hard) you have to be driving like this.

If you drive without sliding as how the best lap times should be, you will get nowhere close to the top times.
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Not sure how I missed this post until tonight, written over a month ago... but I have to disagree with your conclusion.

Looks like the video is a Works Murcie running a 57:234 at Hockenheim Short. Until he clears traffic he is running in the mid 58s, which is only a so-so time.

Now 57:234 is a pretty fair time for that car, but I can run consistently in the low 57s driving smoothly without sliding all over the track. I also don't go completely outside the line on T1 like this guy does. My best time is a 56:584 (which was a bit of a fluke to be perfectly honest). Took me maybe 20 mins to get used to the car, another 30 to get a decent tune. Did the event 5-6 times, took 1st place on the last try.

That's not bragging because I consider myself a so-so driver at best. I make plenty of mistakes and I'm sure there are many faster out there. In fact, there's a guy who's in the mid 55s in my leaderboard. But my point is I didn't need to drive like the guy in the vid to get into the low 57s.

Also, if you watch his fast lap carefully, it's actually a comparatively clean lap. He's not nearly as wild as he was in the first few and the cleaner driving pays off because he gains a whole second.

I am running an old Wingman Force on PC, Elite/Hard. I have fraps, but not the registered version, so I can't take very long vids. If you are on PC and want to see the replay, hit me up: AvusSilber.

I actually beat that particular event in a GT2 with a 1430ish PI a couple of weeks ago. The game scales your opponents based on what you enter the event with. I don't recall it being very hard to take P1 in the Porsche.

FWIW, I don't think the Murcie makes a very good works car. The sweet spot for that car is definitely in the lower PI index. It feels overpowered and sorely lacking in mechanical grip.

I have my issues with the tire model in this game: it is too forgiving. But after two months with it, I don't think there is something fundamentally wrong with the engine as you charge. Collisions, all wrong. AI, massively stupid. Input lag, exists and sucks to have. But the physics seems pretty fair to me.


M
 
Sier_Pinski
I don't think Shift 2 is the only driving simulator that requires drifting to achieve record lap times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg5M_PYbmVA&feature=related

This is Gran Turismo 5 Prologue. This 4WD car drifted around Suzuka Circuit East, and yet is ranked 13th in the online leaderboards.
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I agree drifting like that shouldn't be the fastest way around the track, but in the end we are playing a video game. GT5 feels better to some than others and maybe Shift feels better to some than others. I like them all. Whether it be Shift, GT5, iracing(the ones I play). I believe they all have their good and not so good points respectively.
 
Just got the PC version of Shift 2 today, with the latest patch and the DLC. I am playing it at 1280x720 with everything maxxed. Framerate sits comfortably between 45 (when crowded) and 60 FPS.

I don't know if it's the patch or the fact that I'm using hardware that is able to run this game at twice the framerate, but man, it feels like I'm playing a different game! Input lag is gone (or a lot less), my time are dropping like crazy (probably a result of the reduced lag), the GT40 Mk1 is actually drivable (again probably because of the reduced lag), and it feels so much different than the PS3 version. It's like playing with whole new physics.
 
@NLxAROSA I experienced the same thing as you. I traded my ps3 version of the game and bought the pc version and on the first race i actually felled a completely new game. The input lag gone=better handling....
I dont know why they mess up the physics code with the ps3 version but it was unplayable for me.
 
I liked the PS3 version, but the PC version is miles beyond it in terms of quality. 👍 And best of it all, you can pick it up for around 20 euros in most shops. :)
 
bumping this topic- for the ps3 version...has anyone noticed the steering is slightly delayed? when i noticed this i went back to shift 1 and it felt fine. i use the dual shock controller. say i go to turn through a right corner...i will turn on my joystick, then about a second later the car will turn. this causes me to overcompensate resulting i an eventual spin out. it has caused me to put the game at the bottom of my stack at this point. i loved shift1 so much but im slightly disappointed with 2. am i missing something?
other than that though, all NFS and shift series have been my arcade getaway from forza and GT. the physics remind me of such, realistic in different ways but with an arcade like touch.
 
^ vk56dehan, that's a well known issue. The delay isn't as much as a second though, but more than enough to need "special attention" from the drivers... The delay quite rightly leads to overcompensation, and so you can even get PIO going - the problem is magnified by the too soft default setups. I general you can do two things to partly overcome it: (1) stiffen the cars suspension (set all spring/damper sliders half way as a starting point) and (2) play lots of Shift 2 so that you condition yourself to instinctively compensate for the delay.

DJ
--
 
DrJustice
^ vk56dehan, that's a well known issue. The delay isn't as much as a second though, but more than enough to need "special attention" from the drivers... The delay quite rightly leads to overcompensation, and so you can even get PIO going - the problem is magnified by the too soft default setups. I general you can do two things to partly overcome it: (1) stiffen the cars suspension (set all spring/damper sliders half way as a starting point) and (2) play lots of Shift 2 so that you condition yourself to instinctively compensate for the delay.

DJ
--
Click to expand...
Thank you, Ill have to play with the suspension setup i guess. Unfortunately I dont get to play games as much as Id like...stupid 16hr work days:grumpy:
Do you think any updates will come out to fix this issue?
 
I'm thinking about getting this game, but there's a couple of things I'd like to know first.

- How about the online community? Can you find some clean racing rooms?
- DFGT is fully supported? I heard about some input lag, is it possible to tweak things a bit to make it work?
- About Physics... I hated Dirt3 handling. Would you say this game is closer to Dirt3 or GT5?

Thanks in advance for your advice.
 
I bought this game 2 months ago for 15€ and I played it 10 minutes, it was not worth the 15€ :(

Has there been an physics patch released in the last 2 months?
 
Honestly this is a game you cannot get used to in 10 minutes. You really need to practice quite a lot, but once you learn to drive it there is no other experience like it on consoles. The racing is exceptional, challenging and really gets the adrenaline pumping.

You have to approach it as if you were racing in real life - you simply can't jump in a car as a rookie & expect to be fabulous and win every race.

but I promise you the effort is well worth it!
 
You know, I never really noticed the physics between Shift 1 and Shift 2. So I can't really comment here. Most of what I've heard was how the cars handle too loosely in Shift 2 compared to the first title. I just don't really know what to make of the Shift 2 driving model.
 
I been at shift 2 for awhile now, pretty hardcofe for the last 3 days trying to get the cars to respond the way i wanted. I was hopping to get the stable predictable feeling of GT5 at least to some extent. Today i gave up and turned the steering assit on. First thing i did was slowly go toward a turn and not touch the stick. The car did turn by itself but only ever so slightly. if it had drove around the corner i would have shut it back off, but it didnt it just turned a little and let me drive right of the road with out any additional correction. My hope was that during that delay in the input it would start the turn, to that end the steering assit works wonders. Honestly it makes it feel more like GT5. The cars are still edgy but i can now make a small correction on the straits and pass cars with out flailing about fighting the input lag. YAYness! Ive been a GT fan for a long time but i dont know if i can go back now. The cars feel so much more alive in shift 2 than GT, then theres the sound. The sound is fantastic, my first car the miata sounds 10X more badd "a" than any car in GT. Then theres the camera witch is brilliant it bobs and weaves unlike in GT where youre helmet is weled to the roll cage for some reason. Then theres the helmet cam witch I am finding hard to drive with but, it looks awsome and adds even more to the feel of the game. I can help but think the physics model in Shift 2 is better, it sertenly feels better. However after turning the steering assist on and seeing how much that made it feel more like GT i wonder if mabye there both pretty close to each other and it comes down to those steering adds we can't see? there seams to be some traction controll type aid built in to shift aside from the one you can adjust, and in granturismo theres speed sensitve steering. One thing i would like to see them add to shift is- in granturismo if you turn all the way right then all the way left in a smooth manner the steering responds as if you have to turn the wheel, like in shift. Now with GT if you turn all the way right then quickly, like correcting for a slide the steering snaps the other way. In shift it turns slowly all the time, this is another area where the steering assit helps with the controller as you have no idea the car is sliding untill you "see" it. By then with the slow steering speed its to late. With the assit on its already started to make a small correction by the time you "see" it. It wont save the car from the slide but it give you a fighting chance to save it.
 
I'm sold i tryed playing GT5 the other day and its just so boring. I did instantly feel more in control of the car in GT but..... Its fun just to drive around and listen to the cars in shift. They both have there problems but im on the edge of my seat in shift focused souly on driving the car, even in testing. In GT after 15-20min of testing i start falling asleep.
 
mr_serious
Honestly this is a game you cannot get used to in 10 minutes. You really need to practice quite a lot, but once you learn to drive it there is no other experience like it on consoles. The racing is exceptional, challenging and really gets the adrenaline pumping.

You have to approach it as if you were racing in real life - you simply can't jump in a car as a rookie & expect to be fabulous and win every race.

but I promise you the effort is well worth it!
Click to expand...

I fully agree with mr_s. S2U is a racing simulator and not a driving simulator. Get used to the physics in a proggresive way. Start with the forgiving FWD cars in D-class and work your way up slowly. You are not going to like this game trying to race a works Bugatti on your first outing :crazy:

It seems there are a few members who got the game cheap on sales, or on Playstation Plus and are playing it for the first time. In my experience, playing S2U for more than a year now, I will give you a few suggestions and tips to hopefully help you make the transition from the driving game to S2U a bit easier. I use a wheel so not everything might apply to controllers. For those folks familiar with S2U please ignore my suggestions :sly:

Assists

There is no shame in using assists to start with. Turn them on, feel what the car does...turn them off and see what happens. It is the only way you will learn what they do. Generally speaking traction control on, will give you more cornering force and therefore the car will tend to push (understeer). TC on the low setting is more realistic and easier to corner in a smoother way. Stability control will help in keeping the car more stabile in a staight line at high speeds and less prone to wander. SC also assists in slowing down entering a corner and exiting, making snap oversteer/understeer traits more predictable and manageable. Of all assists, I found SC to be the most usefull when I started, especially with high powered Works converted cars.

Gameplay settings

There is the issue of lag, more so when playing online, and complaints of a slow response to driver input. I have eliminated this by setting:
Force feedback - 100%
All deadzones - 1%
Steering and Brake sensitivity - 98%
Steering lock - 270 degrees
Speed sensitivity - 0%
Now I know perfectly well the above settings does not suit everyone, in particular my steering lock and speed sensitivity settings ( I play with a wheel). I prefer to have a car which turns relatively quickly (270 degrees) and reponds rapidly to braking and acceleration (98%). Remember a higher Speed sensitivity will make the car more twitchy on the long straights, but will make the car turn in more easily. The downside here is that it will also be more prone to turn with exiting. If you don't have the rear stabile when you put the power down , you will certainly spin out. Speed sensitivity at a low setting (0% to 10%) is very similar to the Stabilty control assist switched on. Both make the car less nervous and just that bit more stabile in braking and acceleration.

Tuning

To get the most out of racing S2U and in my opinion the fun out of S2U, some tuning is essential. I have a few tips that I have learned over the past year. These are just general observations that I have picked up and not a comprehensive tuning giude. Even with or without assists and a well setup gameplay setting, most cars will require a bit of tweaking to get the best handling and speed out of them. The following changes can be done to the stock tunes:

Caster

Most cars can do with a bit more. Two to four clicks to the right makes them more stabile on straights, but can make it harder to turn

Toe

Stock tunes have the rear toed out. Rear toe out is an exception on any car, so I always toe the rear in a bit. Toeing front and rear a bit in, will add to staight line stabilty and more manageable cornering. A rule of thumb here is to toe front between 16 to 18 and rear 18 to 20. Play around and get a balance of stability in handling. Too much however will result in tyrescrub and less max speed (especially the D and C class cars...they need less toe).

Tyre pressure

Most of the time the pressure is too high both front and rear. Lower them but try to keep the balance eg front 50 / rear 60.....drop front to 45 and rear to 55 ( increments of 5 used here as an example).

Camber

Camber is a ' feel at the seat' setting and a much personal one. I find that most cars have too much camber in stock. I have used the telemetry screen extensively and would say that in 95% of tunes there is too much camber. Remember that by sliding the adjustment to the LEFT ie the negative (-) side you add camber. So my advice is to play around with less camber if in doubt....sliding the adjustment to the RIGHT will give you less camber. Again try to keep the balance between front and rear the same. I do not use camber to fix understeer/ oversteer. Use the ARB's. springs and dampers for that. Camber adjustment is to get the contact patch flat...and this can be dailed in realitively easy with the telemetry screen.

Anti roll bars and Springs

Most of the time the front ARB's are spot on in the stock tunes. Add rear ARB when you find the car dipping too much ( which is most common). Be carefull of too much rear ARB in this game. You will find the back end unloading very quickly and slipping away without warning. If that should happen use less rear ARB and add a bit of rear spring or stiffer rear damping. It will eliviate the excessive roll.

Most stock tunes have too little spring and damping. They roll a lot and the weight is transfered too slowly from left to right and back to front. FWD cars are not too bad but all other drivetrains can do with front spring of 2/3 and rear 1/2. You do not need a lot of spring in this game!

Dampers are a different evil though. For AWD keep front and rear in balance ( usually the same amount of damping front and rear). RWD cars benefit from more damping at the rear ( for a bit more understeer coming out of corners). My experience is not to have too much of a difference in the overall damping from front to rear. If your front slow bump/ rebound is 3/5 try to keep rear more or less the same. I will change rear a bit stiffer if oversteer exiting is a problem. Remember a bit more front SLOW BUMP can cure a lot of handling problems with powerful rear wheel cars (ZO6).

Ride Height

Drop as low as possible. Remember front higher keeps the weight at the back longer so traction increases. I only use this on the Gumpert though because of the huge amount of torgue at the rear. It just slows down the unloading of the rear a bit.

Aero bits

Max them out front and rear on anything from B-class up. Most of the time it works but obviously on the long tracks when you need a bit more speed you need less. Good luck on the long sweepers though

Brakes

Most of my cars run on a brake balance of 55% rear. It gives you just enough oversteer on corner entry to counteract the in game understeer tendency. Brake pressure I try to keep at a setting of 10 (some cases a bit higher)

Differential

Lift off oversteer is not a big issue in this game. Deceleration lock is in most cases sufficient. Most of the time I fiddle with acceleration lock. High torque cars spinning out needs less. This is most common with the Works Conversion RWD cars

This guide is based on my observations and I don't claim for it to be a comprehensive guide to S2U. It is more a general help for those who started playing S2U recently, and if it helps only one person to play and enjoy S2U like I do, I will be happy

Happy racing dudes

Zee
 
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