Official Shift 2 Physics General Discussion Thread

[tinram]

here's an example of what i have gone through. This is not me.



How can you get the fastest lap time when you are sliding around corners?
This does not say good physics to me. This is what i have gone through with time attack series and decided that there is no saving this game. Please, no complaints about how he drives, because to get top times in time attack (at least in elite/hard) you have to be driving like this.

If you drive without sliding as how the best lap times should be, you will get nowhere close to the top times.

 

[UkHardcore23]

here's an example of what i have gone through. This is not me.



How can you get the fastest lap time when you are sliding around corners?
This does not say good physics to me. This is what i have gone through with time attack series and decided that there is no saving this game. Please, no complaints about how he drives, because to get top times in time attack (at least in elite/hard) you have to be driving like this.

If you drive without sliding as how the best lap times should be, you will get nowhere close to the top times.

So you didnt even bother trying the Lambo with the tune? Have you even bothered with GT1 or 3 cars?

Also if that's the way you are driving in that vid no wonder your sliding all over the place lol

 

[tinram]

So you didnt even bother trying the Lambo with the tune? Have you even bothered with GT1 or 3 cars?

Also if that's the way you are driving in that vid no wonder your sliding all over the place lol

How about showing me a video of how it's supposed to be done? Preferably winning a time attack on hard/elite without slipping and sliding.

 

[Starfirebird]

How about showing me a video of how it's supposed to be done? Preferably winning a time attack on hard/elite without slipping and sliding.

I can do it without slipping and sliding.I've tried slipping and sliding,but i do not like it

Another thing i've noticed is after the patch for the PS3 it's a lot harder to maintain a slide.Ive tried since i seen this issue raised.Mind you i've only tried two cars The Lambo LP640 WTX and the GT3 Ford GT.If you try to do the slipping and sliding the car will push and understeer heavily.The only time i've been slipping and sliding is when i had too much throttle coming out of a corner and the rear end breaks loose.

I'll try more cars tomorrow and see what i can come up with.So far it seems the patch has done some good things.

I'm on the PS3.

 

[tinram]

Tried it today using and Audi GT3 car, seems better. And you guys are complaining about how sticky GT5 cars are, . This thing sticks like superglue.

also won Scion Time Attack car, it's a good car to drive a bit better than the GT3 car.

Not sure if it was the patch or the type of car, but it looks promising now.

 

[FuriousDemon]

Tried it today using and Audi GT3 car, seems better. And you guys are complaining about how sticky GT5 cars are, . This thing sticks like superglue.

also won Scion Time Attack car, it's a good car to drive a bit better than the GT3 car.

Not sure if it was the patch or the type of car, but it looks promising now.

Make up your mind mate, good or bad? Glad you finally decided to give it a chance - it's an ace game, on PC that is. Seems like PS3 is a different beast though with too many bugs and inferior graphics.

 

[Animal_Mother]

I don't have a way to download my replays to prove it, but I always set my best times when running a smooth, clean line. Whenever I try to drift every corner, I run slower. Maybe I'm just drawn to the cars that want to be driven clean. I don't care care for the Murci or other cars that only want to drift around every corner.

 

[tinram]

Make up your mind mate, good or bad? Glad you finally decided to give it a chance - it's an ace game, on PC that is. Seems like PS3 is a different beast though with too many bugs and inferior graphics.

Looks like the patches helped.

Now it's bagood! I still have to play it some more, seems to depend on what car you drive and the mods you make. Cris Rado's car is great out of the box, the audi GT3 is a grip monster but kind of "floats" side to side when on a straight line. How to you fix this? Caster settings?

 

[vrooom]

The more I play Shift 2, the more I appreciate it's physics model and the fact that it is based on a physical/mathematical accurate model and not some fudged model that tries to mimic a car's behavior. 👍

Many driving games offer camber adjustment settings. Not all offer though tire temperature read-outs to help you set camber and tire pressure. Shift 2 fortunately does and it rocks!

I was driving my Maserati MC12 in an endurance race. The car was fast but after the 10th lap the car became very twitchy and then, after lap 15, the car was uncontrollable, resulting in losing control and finishing 7th while I was leading for the first 10 laps. The tires were worn off completely.

A quick drive at live-tuning mode with the tire-temperatures hud on revealed that the inside part of the rear tire was too hot (yellow) while the outside part was cold (blue-green). Obviously that meant that the car (with the default setup) has too much rear negative camber. I adjusted rear camber, making the rear tires more vertical in order to have more uniform tires temperatures. This way I could use the whole tire tread and hopefully decrease tire wear. Also I adjusted front tire pressure to make the front tires hotter and more grippy. After these adjustments (along with minor aero, suspension, drivetrain tweaks) the car was faster and much easier to control.

And it worked! The car was going faster and faster for the first 10 laps, then stabilized for the next 5 laps and experienced a slight drop in performance in the last 5. But it was more than enough to easily win and have easily one of the best experiences in any driving game I played!

The fastest laps in Shift 2 are result of clean driving. I drive much faster when I drive slow-in,fast-out instead of fast-in,slide,slow-out. Also I set up my cars (with the help of live-tuning) to be smooth and easy to drive and push near the limit. Furthermore if you are aggressive your tires will be destroyed quickly and you won't be able to finish near the top. And camber adjustment (along with other tweaks) can be made with confidence and logic since Shift 2 is based on a physical model and shows you the data of the simulation. 👍

On the other hand, in GT5 (fudged driving model, without tire simulation, without tire temperatures and without tire pressures) camber adjustment is a black magic. There is no way to be able to adjust camber if you are not aware of tire temperatures! Therefore all the setup options offered by GT5 are of no use for someone who wants to create some car setups that make sense! 👎

The physics of Shift 2 are brilliant if you approach the game with logic and with an open mind (without being biased that a NFS game can not be a simulation, GT5 is the best sim by default and anything different is not accurate). And on top of the brilliant physics sits an amazing game with great car selection, real tracks, graphics, sounds and loads of fun!

 

[kikie]

*snip*

And where is that Ian Bell guy??!

On nogripracing

 

[Starfirebird]

Looks like the patches helped.

Now it's bagood! I still have to play it some more, seems to depend on what car you drive and the mods you make. Cris Rado's car is great out of the box, the audi GT3 is a grip monster but kind of "floats" side to side when on a straight line. How to you fix this? Caster settings?

I had this same problem with the GT3 Ford GT.

What i did was dial down the Steering lock to 17 and it stopped the side to side thing.

 

[-viper-]

I tried the game with the pad and the handling feels absolutely terrible. Cars feel like they are being driven on ice. All they do is slip and slide.

I think I'd rather wait for the next GT game or Forza 4. heck. I might just give up with racing games for now. most of them feel boring.

The presentation and style of the game are fantastic. But when the cars handle that bad, what is the point? Also, lack of music = slightly boring atmosphere when racing.

 

[brambos]

I tried the game with the pad and the handling feels absolutely terrible. Cars feel like they are being driven on ice. All they do is slip and slide.

Don't give up too soon. The default handling settings are set up for 900 degree wheel users, resulting in lots of swaying if you're playing with a pad. To make matters worse, the default suspension settings for road cars are set for road driving use, not racing.

Try this: go into your car's tuning screen and reduce the steering lock to 10. This will already make the handling 100x better with a controller.

If you feel like some further tweaking: make sure the ride-height is lowered a bit (default is usually max-height), lower the tire pressure to 40'ish and make sure the suspension is not set to its softest settings (weirdly, that's the default). Also, increasing the caster and increasing the camber a bit will help improve the stability and accuracy of your car's handling.

Give it a try! Shift 2 is worth the learning curve, because it's the most realistic racing experience you can find on a console today. 👍

 

[buziii]

I agree with brambos. If you give up too soon, you'll really be missing out on a very fun racing game. I'm also a DS3 user, and it was very difficult in the beginning until I made some of the adjustments brambos mentions. Lowering the steering lock to the 8 - 12 range is the quickest way to make the handling better for controller users.

 

[buziii]

Is it inappropriate to double post 36 hours later?

Disclaimer: This post is not intended to bash GT5.

I just went back and played GT5...for a few minutes. I got in my RM'd VW Golf GTI and raced at the Nurb GP/F. It was quiet. There weren't any tires squealing and sliding, no loud engine noises, no guardrail scraping, no noisy crashes...it was just quiet...and kinda boring. I almost fell asleep. There were literally no tires squealing! I know it was an FWD, but no tire squealing?

I like S2U.

 

[GumShoe]

Thought this was worth mentioning here, it is the subject of much debate and Ian Bell himself offered his take (old post but I just found it):

http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1349141#post1349141

"Well, we have the same suspension 6DOF model as that game and a much more advanced tyre model. If we want cars that spin out fairly rapidly at the limits of adhesion then yes, we can do it, but it wouldn't be realistic. All of these cars, even the top end GT1 cars can oversteer merrily. It's just not the fastest way to get around a lap/the best way to ruin your tyres for future laps."

 

[brambos]

^ good find! lol.. I sense someone is now trying to put his foot in his mouth

 

[tribolik]

So it is a Sim

I very sorry I couldnt help it, I promise I wont ruin this thread

 

[GumShoe]

Certainly makes the discussion more interesting

For those who didn't check the source, Ian was replying to someone asking if the Shift 2 tyre model could be modded to be more like GTR2.

I personally think the reason race cars seem to 'spin' quicker in real life is because people generally aren't expecting to start sliding, so reactions aren't ready and are less controlled, but in games, because we don't have real life forces acting on us to give the sudden shock, we can counter very quickly and smoothly to a loss of traction.

Myself, I find I spin more in Shift 2 (or any other sim) if I'm really pushing to catch a car in front, where due to concentrating on the car ahead and having a bit of adrenalin going and pushing that extra bit, I'm not as ready and calm when over the limit.

 

[tribolik]

I personally think the reason cars seem to 'spin' quicker in real life is because people generally aren't expecting to start sliding, so reactions aren't ready and are less controlled, but in games, because we don't have real life forces acting on us to give the sudden shock, we can counter very quickly and smoothly to a loss of traction.
.

Off course the cars spin quicker IRL Ive never driven with race slicks like I do in the game....

 

[RomKnight]

Just look at GT3 class. All the cars are on rails until one start pushing a little bit more to get that position or doing an hot lap and suddenly you find yourself on the edge. After that anything can happen from spin to a crash.

The Team NFS Z4 GT3 is a fine example. Get on the throttle to soon or too hard and you'll spin. Drive it as it should and its on rails.

I take it its the way it should be from what I see on TV...

 

[tribolik]

One very strange thing I know for a fact happens with this game... it seems to be a very different game from one to another even if they are on the same platform with the same controller...

 

[Blitz187]

Bit the bullet and bought S2U, even though I thought the first installment was horrible.... Have to say this one is greatly improved. Physics wise as well 👍 Will have to spend some more time with it, but I found good wheel settings quite quickly and got use to the physics pretty fast.... The little nuances like the car getting unsettled on rumble strips and such took a bit of time to get use too, but all in all I like it... Pleasantly surprised.

P.S. Don't know what it was like pre-1.02 Patch... but it feels pretty solid and not floaty at all like what I've read in some parts of this forum.

 

[alfaV6boy]

The more I play Shift 2, the more I appreciate it's physics model and the fact that it is based on a physical/mathematical accurate model and not some fudged model that tries to mimic a car's behavior. 👍

Many driving games offer camber adjustment settings. Not all offer though tire temperature read-outs to help you set camber and tire pressure. Shift 2 fortunately does and it rocks!

I was driving my Maserati MC12 in an endurance race. The car was fast but after the 10th lap the car became very twitchy and then, after lap 15, the car was uncontrollable, resulting in losing control and finishing 7th while I was leading for the first 10 laps. The tires were worn off completely.

A quick drive at live-tuning mode with the tire-temperatures hud on revealed that the inside part of the rear tire was too hot (yellow) while the outside part was cold (blue-green). Obviously that meant that the car (with the default setup) has too much rear negative camber. I adjusted rear camber, making the rear tires more vertical in order to have more uniform tires temperatures. This way I could use the whole tire tread and hopefully decrease tire wear. Also I adjusted front tire pressure to make the front tires hotter and more grippy. After these adjustments (along with minor aero, suspension, drivetrain tweaks) the car was faster and much easier to control.

And it worked! The car was going faster and faster for the first 10 laps, then stabilized for the next 5 laps and experienced a slight drop in performance in the last 5. But it was more than enough to easily win and have easily one of the best experiences in any driving game I played!

The fastest laps in Shift 2 are result of clean driving. I drive much faster when I drive slow-in,fast-out instead of fast-in,slide,slow-out. Also I set up my cars (with the help of live-tuning) to be smooth and easy to drive and push near the limit. Furthermore if you are aggressive your tires will be destroyed quickly and you won't be able to finish near the top. And camber adjustment (along with other tweaks) can be made with confidence and logic since Shift 2 is based on a physical model and shows you the data of the simulation. 👍

On the other hand, in GT5 (fudged driving model, without tire simulation, without tire temperatures and without tire pressures) camber adjustment is a black magic. There is no way to be able to adjust camber if you are not aware of tire temperatures! Therefore all the setup options offered by GT5 are of no use for someone who wants to create some car setups that make sense! 👎

The physics of Shift 2 are brilliant if you approach the game with logic and with an open mind (without being biased that a NFS game can not be a simulation, GT5 is the best sim by default and anything different is not accurate). And on top of the brilliant physics sits an amazing game with great car selection, real tracks, graphics, sounds and loads of fun!

👍

intelligent, well worded and thought out post.... some folks like to beleive the lie that PD feeds that GT5 is actually more realistic than the real thing and every other driving game should be binned.... but your points about the tire temps in GT5 basically show it for what it is.

Shift 2 is fantastic and rewarding game and demands you put some work in and you really have to be on the ball and concentrate, otherwise it'll show you up.... you cant always blame the physics for your own faults.

Point is i can do a race and perform badly , car all over the place....press restart...concentrate, focus.... and then it works perfectly....Me? or Physics to blame?

 

[///M-Spec]

I personally think the reason race cars seem to 'spin' quicker in real life is because people generally aren't expecting to start sliding, so reactions aren't ready and are less controlled, but in games, because we don't have real life forces acting on us to give the sudden shock, we can counter very quickly and smoothly to a loss of traction.

Race cars seem to spin quicker in real life because racing slicks have a very narrow window between gripping and sliding. They are also very heat sensitive. And when they let go, they tend to do so very abruptly. That is the nature of the sticky compound and super stiff tire carcass. Add the fact that race cars are simply going much faster than street cars and that's why they seem to suddenly fly out of control.

Street tires are hugely forgiving at the limit because they are literally designed to be driven by grandmothers. The limits are (obviously) lower and the transition between grip and slide is smooth, predictable and accompanied by that howling sound we all love.

This is why at many public track events, you must be 'written off' by the staff to drive on r-compound tires. Nobody wants a beginner or no-talent ass clown on sticky tires --you never know what's going to happen.


M

 

[RomKnight]

I went to some track days either riding my motorcycle or just watching.

Its was fairly common to see the first to fall are the ones on slicks who can't even keep the tires warm enough to work well.

I'm not into that any more. Maybe now they brief the "wise guys" before the events start

 

[GumShoe]

Race cars seem to spin quicker in real life because racing slicks have a very narrow window between gripping and sliding. They are also very heat sensitive. And when they let go, they tend to do so very abruptly. That is the nature of the sticky compound and super stiff tire carcass. Add the fact that race cars are simply going much faster than street cars and that's why they seem to suddenly fly out of control.

M

Sorry I worded that badly. I was trying to mean the reason that drivers get into full spin outs, not the reason the cars spin. I was sort of alluding to the lack of feel we have in games and the 'surprise' that isn't there, not to mention the change of forces on the body when the car lets go suddenly. It would be interesting to see someone drive a real GT car by remote control and see if spins are saved more frequently...

Actually that would give a really good comparison between RL and a game. I hope someone does it sometime, the technology is there (even lag from wireless control )

 

[hacibaba1]

hi ive just gave my shift2 special edtion away can they use the codes still

 

[tribolik]

PM me the codes here and I will see if they are ok

 

[hacibaba1]

hi ive just gave my shift2 special edtion away can they use the codes still

hi i wont know till he gets his post (lisboa is a great place)