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I heard in some magazine that all of the profits go to the familes of the victims
Oliver Stones World Trade Center
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Oh thank god. For a minute there, I thought I suffered a stroke after watching this movie.Duke
morganhead
(Banned)
- 61
niky
oh yeah? so you have proof that he has sold out before
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morganhead
Dude. Seriously. To paraphrase Tool:Famine
I truly don't understand why you suddenly think Oliver Stone is selling out now when he's clearly been a whore for most of his career. He's just marginally more subtle about it than Michael Moore is.Maynard Keenan
morganhead
(Banned)
- 61
maybe i'm not connecting with you guys the way i thought i would so let me ask a different question;
do you think the writer-director is a lost art in hollywood RIGHT NOW?
do you think the writer-director is a lost art in hollywood RIGHT NOW?
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What's so holy about it? Is it impossible for a writer and a director to cooperate on a movie without selling out (worse than the required sellout of getting a movie produced in the first place)? I don't get what you're getting at.
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While being a writer-director is a cool thing, why can't Stone be just a director? When he's been just a producer on other films and just a writer on still others?
Oh, previous films by Oliver Stone not written by him:
U-Turn (1997, written by John Ridley)
Mad Man of Martinique (short, french, old... have no idea of what this film is like)
And this isn't to mention the stuff he's written for others, as well as the numerous documentaries and pseudo-documentaries (try looking up "Comandante" and "Looking for Fidel"... really spectacular work... not)
Oh, I agree that a single writer-director working on a single movie enables one to keep the original spirit of the material alive on-screen, but having a good writer teamed with a good director is no bad thing if the director in question really has a feel for the material.
Oh, previous films by Oliver Stone not written by him:
U-Turn (1997, written by John Ridley)
Mad Man of Martinique (short, french, old... have no idea of what this film is like)
And this isn't to mention the stuff he's written for others, as well as the numerous documentaries and pseudo-documentaries (try looking up "Comandante" and "Looking for Fidel"... really spectacular work... not)
Oh, I agree that a single writer-director working on a single movie enables one to keep the original spirit of the material alive on-screen, but having a good writer teamed with a good director is no bad thing if the director in question really has a feel for the material.
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- FoolKiller1979
Art is questionable.morganhead
A writer-director combo can lead to one of two things:
1) A well-written story that comes out beautifully in the end because it has been untouched by the mundane hands of Hollywood execs and is a masterpiece. I find this to be rare.
2) An unstoppable train wreck of trash that could have been stopped or saved had the over-sized ego of the writer-director not gotten in the way. This also happens when you let the star, writer, or director executive produce a film (think Battlefield Earth).
And really, just because the guy decided to direct a movie about something he felt strongly about but didn't write does not make him a sell-out. Writing, directing, and producing a piece of crap movie about a popular topic (football) so that you pander to an audience and guarantee a box office is selling out.
I would honestly rather see individual writers, directors, and producers make a great film than a one guy take on all three jobs and end up with junk.
Besides, when you have a writer-director you get this and this, as well as this, this, and this.
Which brings up a good point, why are you freaking out over Oliver Stone when you have Kevin Smith, Quentin Tarantino, and Robert Rodriguez (as well as many others) who have all done things on other films and still manage to write-direct? I mean, do you think that Oliver Stone will never write-direct again? I mean, his agent handed him a script and he said, "I would love to direct this. I want to be a part of this," or something along those lines. Find me where he says that he is never going to write again and I will give you credit for feeling that he has been lost in this "art."
morganhead
(Banned)
- 61
FoolKiller
I get what you are saying, it's just the only reason i even brought this up in the first place is to protest the fact people like him are working off of somebody else's script. in fact, the Farrally Brothers and Spike Lee had only recently worked off of somebody else's script, making movies which is not them, not like the work they have previously done. I don't know why, you have to ask them. anyway, my point is, i am very particuar about the movies i see. In fact, i only own two DVDs and they were both written and directed by the same person. i am feeling that this movement is failing because, in case you forgot, all five of the ocsar nominnes for best orignal screenplay this past year were written by the same person who also directed it
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I wasn't planning on seeing this one anyway. I think most people with any sense will smell crap before they see it in this case...
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- FoolKiller1979
I just don't see the sin in this. Sometimes someone has a great creative spirit but not the vision or ability make it into an actual image. If this weren't allowed many great movies wouldn't have been created. You also have people who can read something and then visualize it as an image but they have absolutely no creativity.morganhead
You must either go out a whole lot or not really watch a lot of movies. It wouldn't kill you to own a guilty pleasrure or two. You don't have to admit it to friends, but owning them gives you something to watch when no one else is watching.
I didn't realize this was a movement or something to try and improve Hollywood as it has been going on since the days of Frank Capra and Orson Welles.
And using the Acadamy Awards to prove to me that anything is good will never work. I believe they give the award to the guy that can most benefit from selling the gold to pay off the cost of the movie.
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Oh god, I wish someone would have warned be before I bought it! What a CRAP movie!
I refuse to see 'Flight 93' and there's no way in hell I'm going to see this movie. Making profit off 9/11 is not something I will willfully support. And, any movie made about 9/11 is going to only support one view point/political side. I always said that they should never make movies about 9/11, but I knew it would happen eventually.
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- FoolKiller1979
Just out of curiosity, do you feel the same way about every 9/11 TV special, every Katrina TV special, and documentaries such as Fahrenheit 911? How about movies like Pearl Harbor and Schindler's List? Spike Lee has a movie about Katrina on HBO next week. Those exploit great disaster and tragedy for profit as well. Heck, what about any war movie about real events in a real war?
If you really want to get technical every political debate show on television has taken advantage of people's feelings towards these events in order to get higher ratings and thus more money.
While I haven't seen Flight 93 yet and probably won't see World Trade Center in the theater I do recognize that they are donating money to the families of these disasters while every documentary and TV special out there is just pocketing the revenue they bring in.
As for these movies presenting a political point of view; so far I haven't heard anyone who has seen it complain about it, but I haven;'t heard from that many people about it all, so I could be wrong here.
- 1,271
I can never take anything you say seriously from now on.
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- FoolKiller1979
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- FoolKiller1979
Oh. While I agree, I wasn't attempting to make commentary about Fahrenheit 911. I believe I have bashed it plenty in other threads.
I guess I was just trying to make my point without paying attention to what I grouped under my adjectives. Like, I hinted that Pearl Harbor is a war movie. That's not right either. Heck, it's not even about a war, or Pearl Harbor.
It was a lot quicker to type that than saying documentaries, Michael Moore type trash, Pearl Harbor, actual movies about wars, or any other movie referring to true events.
morganhead
(Banned)
- 61
so what you guys are saying that hollywood directors sell out the second they make their first movie? i don't believe that for one second
then again, imanige what the scream trilogy would be like if wes craven would have written the script? or the outsiders and dracula of francis ford coppola would have written the script? those two directors SOLD OUT when they did those movies, i don't care what anybody says
i'm not much of a movie watcher, but i know a great movie when i see one. and for me, lost in translation and donnie darko are those movies. it's ironic that those two movies were made by writer-directors, now isn't it?
then again, imanige what the scream trilogy would be like if wes craven would have written the script? or the outsiders and dracula of francis ford coppola would have written the script? those two directors SOLD OUT when they did those movies, i don't care what anybody says
i'm not much of a movie watcher, but i know a great movie when i see one. and for me, lost in translation and donnie darko are those movies. it's ironic that those two movies were made by writer-directors, now isn't it?
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morganhead
(Banned)
- 61
so you think that spike lee, oliver stone, and the farelly bros. are good filmmakers no matter if they write their own screenplays or not? this is really starting to get to me, this whole thing. so i'm going all out here to perfectly explain exactly what i am talking about once and for all.
now i'm not that all into movies, and i'm not a movie expert but i do know this; SCREENWRITERS DO THE BOOKS AND BLOCKBUSTERS, AND WRITER-DIRECTORS DO THE ORIGNAL STUFF THAT THE ALL THE AWARDS COMMITTEES GO GAGA OVER (expect for charlie kauffman and actor-directors) to me, i respect people like woody allen, richard kelly, sofia coppola, cameron crowe, wes anderson, john hugres, peter jackson, and people like that more than than the more mainstream directors who don't write their own scripts, because THEY ARE DOING THEIR OWN THING. they are the most creative people in hollywood and THEY TELL THEIR OWN STORIES. now i'm not discounting people like spearberg and howard, because they have had won oscars and stuff. and i respect them up to a certain point. BUT THEY ARE NOT STORYTELLERS. they don't write the screenplays that makes the people rave. people like sofia coppola, for instance her father wrote the godfather triogy then sold out when he made apocalyspe now. his daughter made lost in transation, one of the the most beautiful movies of all time, plus it introduced scarlett johansson, georgetown to lindsay lohan's villanova. i only hople she dosn't end up like her father.
thank god for harvey weinberg, otherwise we wouldn't have BOBBY, THE GREATEST MOVIE OF THIS YEAR AND LINDSAY LOHAN'S TICKET TO OSCAR GOLD.
out 11/17/06
now i'm not that all into movies, and i'm not a movie expert but i do know this; SCREENWRITERS DO THE BOOKS AND BLOCKBUSTERS, AND WRITER-DIRECTORS DO THE ORIGNAL STUFF THAT THE ALL THE AWARDS COMMITTEES GO GAGA OVER (expect for charlie kauffman and actor-directors) to me, i respect people like woody allen, richard kelly, sofia coppola, cameron crowe, wes anderson, john hugres, peter jackson, and people like that more than than the more mainstream directors who don't write their own scripts, because THEY ARE DOING THEIR OWN THING. they are the most creative people in hollywood and THEY TELL THEIR OWN STORIES. now i'm not discounting people like spearberg and howard, because they have had won oscars and stuff. and i respect them up to a certain point. BUT THEY ARE NOT STORYTELLERS. they don't write the screenplays that makes the people rave. people like sofia coppola, for instance her father wrote the godfather triogy then sold out when he made apocalyspe now. his daughter made lost in transation, one of the the most beautiful movies of all time, plus it introduced scarlett johansson, georgetown to lindsay lohan's villanova. i only hople she dosn't end up like her father.
thank god for harvey weinberg, otherwise we wouldn't have BOBBY, THE GREATEST MOVIE OF THIS YEAR AND LINDSAY LOHAN'S TICKET TO OSCAR GOLD.
out 11/17/06
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- GTP_Famine
Interesting use of capitals and increased font sizes there. Think it carries your points any better?
Selling-out is the stock trade in Hollywood. Directors - and writers, and writer-directors - take the producers' money and do what the producers tell them. Almost all of the instances of good films you cite are where the producers ARE the writers or directors.
Incidentally, Peter Jackson didn't write Lord of the Rings and Coppola didn't write The Godfather trilogy - though they did both have a hand in the screenplay for the respective films. Neither were telling their own story - they were adapting the original authors' stories (Tolkein and Puzo) for better run-time and cinema-goers microscopic attention spans.
Selling-out is the stock trade in Hollywood. Directors - and writers, and writer-directors - take the producers' money and do what the producers tell them. Almost all of the instances of good films you cite are where the producers ARE the writers or directors.
Incidentally, Peter Jackson didn't write Lord of the Rings and Coppola didn't write The Godfather trilogy - though they did both have a hand in the screenplay for the respective films. Neither were telling their own story - they were adapting the original authors' stories (Tolkein and Puzo) for better run-time and cinema-goers microscopic attention spans.
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- FoolKiller1979
Actually the final score was 58-29. Not a surprise to me. For my pre-game thoughts, and soon post-game thoughts, read the college football threads.
Oh, and yes, most directors do sell out after they make their first mainstream movie. It would be rare that a big name studio would just hand the reigns over to a writer-director and tell them to do their thing. There is always someone breathing down their necks and trying to tell them what to do.
An exception to this would possibly be Orson Welles who was notorious for locking executives out of the studio or having people watch for approaching executives so that when they did arrive the entire cast and crew wouls just be sitting around smoking or whatever. Of course, Welles did sell out later in life with much of his vioceover and acting work, but you have to pay the bills. As a director however he took full control from start to finish with the exception of when he had to leave the country before editing was finished on The Magnificent Ambersons. He was completely upset by teh finished job and swore to his dying day that had he been able to do the editting it would have been his greatest work ever. Instead he just thought of it as his greatest work that was ruined by the studio.
morganhead
(Banned)
- 61
remember, it's not about what is written, it's about who writes it.💡
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- FoolKiller1979
I've seen and read some pretty crappy stuff from supposedly great writers. A movie has to work from the moment the first letter of a script hits a page until the film opens to the public. Writing means nothing without directing and acting.
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I don't know if you meant it to, or not, but this statement absolutely shoots your own argument right in the ass.
What you're saying here is that the quality of the story means nothing and only the name on the writing credit is important. How stupid is that?
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