ORCA - Coming Soon: SILVIA RM SPEC CUP!

[Johnnypenso]

This is pretty much how I see it and I need to decide which one I want to do. Historically we've been a very competitive group and a podium finish is something worthy of pride, even more so for a victory. Like TrackBound said, earning a Capp Cup or ORCA win really meant something because there were almost always a handful of very fast guys that aren't easy to beat. Having the duel car system would water that down quite a bit, not sure if I want to do that, but I could.

What if we all drive the same car, same specs, but every week we change the car? Week 1 is FF, week 2 is FR, week 3 is MR, week 4 is AWD, etc., some people would be better in some cars then others and some would be worse. Hopefully everyone would get their chance to excel in one or two of the cars but would have incentive to race the cars they might not be as good in to keep their points total up. It just an idea, obviously some fast guys will be fast in just about anything, but at least if you end up lapping by yourself for a bit it will be in a variety of cars.

A variety of cars is an idea but I don't think it'll move us toward parity if that is the goal. Fast drivers are fast in all cars and the end result will likely be the same as it would if we ran the same car all season. But you would have the advantage of the variety.

Taking that concept further, one idea I had but didn't propose was simply to put a pp limit on each race and allow drivers to enter any car they want. No tuning allowed, pick any car you like on the given tires and go for it. No need for any resets of any of the room parameters. There are dozens of ways you can limit this as well. You can limit drivetrains, tires, country of origin, manufacturer etc.

Another way you could approach this parity thing is to have two different cars but reward different points for each cars' finishing position and allow drivers to choose their own cars from race to race. If it ends up being the Impreza/Evo choice and the Subaru is a second or two faster, reward it with less points for each level of finish. A first in an Impreza might provide the same points as say a 5th in an Evo. Pick any car you like. Change cars from race to race if you like. If a slower driver wants to pick a faster car that's no problem, if a faster driver wants to pick the slower car and go for the higher points also no problem. Could lead to some very interesting races.

For example say the four fastest drivers are fighting it out for top spot. Two of them pick the fast car and two pick the slow car. The two fast cars have to beat the other cars by 2 or 3 or 4 spots in order to gain any advantage points wise. If the slower guys pick the faster car will they finish ahead of the faster guys in the slower car? If all the fast guys pick the slower car going for the higher points and the slower guys pick the faster car...and the slower guys win...then what happens? Could add a real gambling element to car selection....lol.

 

[Cote Dazur]

A variety of cars is an idea but I don't think it'll move us toward parity if that is the goal. Fast drivers are fast in all cars and the end result will likely be the same as it would if we ran the same car all season. But you would have the advantage of the variety.

Taking that concept further, one idea I had but didn't propose was simply to put a pp limit on each race and allow drivers to enter any car they want. No tuning allowed, pick any car you like on the given tires and go for it. No need for any resets of any of the room parameters. There are dozens of ways you can limit this as well. You can limit drivetrains, tires, country of origin, manufacturer etc.

Another way you could approach this parity thing is to have two different cars but reward different points for each cars' finishing position and allow drivers to choose their own cars from race to race. If it ends up being the Impreza/Evo choice and the Subaru is a second or two faster, reward it with less points for each level of finish. A first in an Impreza might provide the same points as say a 5th in an Evo. Pick any car you like. Change cars from race to race if you like. If a slower driver wants to pick a faster car that's no problem, if a faster driver wants to pick the slower car and go for the higher points also no problem. Could lead to some very interesting races.

For example say the four fastest drivers are fighting it out for top spot. Two of them pick the fast car and two pick the slow car. The two fast cars have to beat the other cars by 2 or 3 or 4 spots in order to gain any advantage points wise. If the slower guys pick the faster car will they finish ahead of the faster guys in the slower car? If all the fast guys pick the slower car going for the higher points and the slower guys pick the faster car...and the slower guys win...then what happens? Could add a real gambling element to car selection....lol.

The concept with the different point reward for faster or slower car is interesting, it address both concern of better racing experience and real winner. it is also very easy to implement and maintain.

 

[TrackBound7]

A competition caution could be interesting. If we are doing longer races would you suggest that on lap x everyone pits, new tires, reline up, then come around for lap x+1 and start racing again?

 

[Johnnypenso]

The concept with the different point reward for faster or slower car is interesting, it address both concern of better racing experience and real winner. it is also very easy to implement and maintain.

That idea came to me as I was writing that message but the more I think about it the more I like it!! It adds a real gambling element to things and allows for different strategies throughout the season. You could come down to the last race of the year and your rival could finish third, you could win..and lose the championship!!!

 

[OwensRacing]

A competition caution could be interesting. If we are doing longer races would you suggest that on lap x everyone pits, new tires, reline up, then come around for lap x+1 and start racing again?

10lap race. Set it to 11 for the line up lap.


I'm really in favor of the Impreza TC and doing 10-20 lap race with a caution on every 5th lap Pit stops are not forced. If you can save tires then you save position. Restarts being bunched. Will keep pitstops from penalizing time. Only position With some of us less skilled at tire management too.

 

[Johnnypenso]

10lap race. Set it to 11 for the line up lap.


I'm really in favor of the Impreza TC and doing 10-20 lap race with a caution on every 5th lap Pit stops are not forced. If you can save tires then you save position. Restarts being bunched. Will keep pitstops from penalizing time. Only position With some of us less skilled at tire management too.

An interesting concept and one I've never seen before. I wonder if it'll create a situation where there really is no racing until the final segment because does it really matter if you are first and way out in front or 5th and a minute back when it comes to lining up for the final segment to the flag?. Certainly from the standpoint of tire wear, I'd much rather be in 5th in cruise control with the majority of tires left than in 1st with half my tires left when the final green flag drops. On the other hand, one can always pit for fresh tires a lap before the final segment and have fresh rubber on for the sprint to the finish.

 

[OwensRacing]

An intersting concept and one I've never seen before. I wonder if it'll create a situation where there really is no racing until the final segment because does it really matter if you are first and way out in front or 5th and a minute back when it comes to lining up for the final segment to the flag?. Certainly from the standpoint of tire wear, I'd much rather be in 5th in cruise control with the majority of tires left than in 1st with half my tires left when the final green flag drops. On the other hand, one can always pit for fresh tires a lap before the final segment and have fresh rubber on for the sprint to the finish.

Brandon could call it out on random. With in a set window. This element of surprise would reduce sandbagging so to speak.

 

[BrandonW77]

I don't know, wouldn't that make most of the racing pointless? Spend time opening a gap just to have the field bunched up every five laps? I understand the concept but it seems a bit counter-productive to me. I guess it would help everyone to remain calm during most of the race but it could lead to a lot of impatience for the final stretch with everyone scrambling to get the win in just 5 laps.

I could see maybe doing a "competition yellow" around the half way mark but I can see several issues with that as well. When do you pit for tires? Obviously most people would wait until the caution, but that means everyone's going to be jumping into the pits at the same time which could cause a lot of problems and the field will likely be quite jumbled after we pit (some cars will randomly get held longer than others, etc.). The only real solution to that is to make sure the caution comes after everyone would need tires so everyone would have their pitting done beforehand. Say tires can only go about 12-14 laps, make the caution at lap 16 or 18 so everyone will have made their stop already and there would still be some tire strategy (do you pit early and go for good position for the final run or pit late and try to have better tires?). The final segment would have to be long enough to allow everyone to use patience while working their way toward the front, I don't want a mad dash where people just drive through other cars to get to the front.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I don't know, wouldn't that make most of the racing pointless? Spend time opening a gap just to have the field bunched up every five laps? I understand the concept but it seems a bit counter-productive to me. I guess it would help everyone to remain calm during most of the race but it could lead to a lot of impatience for the final stretch with everyone scrambling to get the win in just 5 laps.

I could see maybe doing a "competition yellow" around the half way mark but I can see several issues with that as well. When do you pit for tires? Obviously most people would wait until the caution, but that means everyone's going to be jumping into the pits at the same time which could cause a lot of problems and the field will likely be quite jumbled after we pit (some cars will randomly get held longer than others, etc.). The only real solution to that is to make sure the caution comes after everyone would need tires so everyone would have their pitting done beforehand. Say tires can only go about 12-14 laps, make the caution at lap 16 or 18 so everyone will have made their stop already and there would still be some tire strategy (do you pit early and go for good position for the final run or pit late and try to have better tires?). The final segment would have to be long enough to allow everyone to use patience while working their way toward the front, I don't want a mad dash where people just drive through other cars to get to the front.

I dunno, maybe I'm not getting the concept but there's something about artificially gathering everyone back together on the track after 3/4 of the race that doesn't appeal to me. When the flag drops I want to race to the checkered as fast as possible. What's the point of racing the first 3/4 of the race then other than to gain a little track position? In the end the only thing that will count is the last segment so we might as well just run short sprints. The only way I can see this working is if you award 3/4 of the points to the order at the time of the caution and the last part of the race is for the remaining 1/4 of the points. That way you have to race in both segments of the race.

 

[BrandonW77]

^ I agree, that's what my first paragraph was referring to. The second paragraph was just showing how I think through these things. I'd like to keep the field close together but not at the expense of creating artificial cautions or whatever, once the green flag drops everyone should race hard and smart and their fate is in their own hands. 👍

 

[Cote Dazur]

👍

 

[TrackBound7]

With the competition caution idea and pitting you run into some real grey area. If the track is large enough that you wouldn't go a lap down, it would be smart to short pit and get that done before the caution and everyone else (possibly), then you would be in the lead while everyone else is in the pits under caution. That puts the caution caller in a stick spot of when to do it (even for their own strategy). I don't see it happening without a lot of conflict.

 

[Blind829]

^ I agree, that's what my first paragraph was referring to. The second paragraph was just showing how I think through these things. I'd like to keep the field close together but not at the expense of creating artificial cautions or whatever, once the green flag drops everyone should race hard and smart and their fate is in their own hands. 👍

Have you considered the "low boost" setting? If not, try a race using it and see what you think. My experience is the fast guys are still in front, but the field stays closer together. You still need the skill to pass people and be up front, "low boost" doesn't take care of that. If you interested maybe a test race is in order, my guess is the fast people would still be in front and the slower people would still be in the back, just a tighter spread. I know it's tough for some to accept racing with a "boost" but if you're trying to accomplish keeping the field closer together, than I don't see any other way to do it besides drastically shortening the length of the race.

 

[BrandonW77]

^ I've thought about it but presume it would cause a mass revolt. Low boost is the obvious way to keep the field close but it also takes the "edge" off of racing and I think most people come here because they want some serious, clean competition. Boost waters that down quite a bit. I'm not opposed to testing it though.

 

[TrackBound7]

I usually run in the middle or back of the pack. I would rather stay there than run with boost.

 

[OwensRacing]

I usually run in the middle or back of the pack. I would rather stay there than run with boost.

Agree


As well the comp yellow with mandatory stop. Would that not solve most problems? Basically just bunches us back up. We run light damage. So no need to stop other then Comp Yellow.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I haven't tested this with the cars we're thinking of, but if for example the difference between the same car on two different compounds was 1-2 seconds, how would everyone feel if anyone who had say a top 3 finish in the prior week (or maybe top 2 in smaller fields) had to race the following week on the harder compound regardless of what compound they raced the week before? In other words, if it's one of the Impreza's and we go with RH and SS tires and in week 2 driver X is on SS or RH tires and has a second place he's on SS in week 3 as well. If he can't make the top 3 he reverts back to RH tires. If he has another top 3 he stays on SS tires.

In my own testing I've found the difference in compounds is around 1-2 seconds depending on the track. In this scenario we'd all be in the same car, no PP changes required, and your compound is determined by your finish the prior week so that adjustments are made week by week to move people up and down the grip ladder. The higher you finish the more points you get so there really isn't any incentive to sandbag. A string of 4th place finishes won't likely take the title in other words.

For the first week we could all run on the same compound or...we could have a poll listing all the fastest drivers and everyone could vote on who they think should be on the hard compound and take the top 3 and put them on it the first week. Of course because it's my idea and because I'm a well respected race steward and because I'm Canadian, my name would not be in the poll..

 

[Naptown25rs]

i usually run in the middle or back of the pack. I would rather stay there than run with boost.

+1

 

[gknap]

^ I've thought about it but presume it would cause a mass revolt.

Yes, I belive thats how the French revolution got started.

 

[BrandonW77]

..... because I'm Canadian, my name would be the only one in the poll..

Fixed that for ya. 👍

I still don't think I like the idea of a handicap system watering down a victory. If I win a race because I'm on the soft tires and the guy I'm battling with is on hard tires it really makes it a hollow victory. As we saw with the previous format, people tend to not show up for the chance at a hollow victory. As much as I'd like to have a more balanced field, I just don't feel like it can be done without having a negative impact on the foundation of the series.

A podium finish in any of our previous seasons was almost as glorious as a victory in other series and I think that says a lot. While a win might not be in the cards for everyone (myself included) a podium finish is a possibility for anyone with determination and focus and is an accomplishment they can be proud of. I want to keep that intact and don't want to do anything to artificially "enhance" the racing for fear of podiums or a wins losing most of their value. This also goes along with my desire to have a more streamlined series that requires less effort from everyone (especially myself).

Don't think I'm trying to discourage the ideas that have been coming forth, this is all valuable info that gives me insight to what you guys want and it helps me to form my gameplan. I may not use all of the suggested ideas, but I like to throw as much stuff against the wall to see what sticks. So far there's a lot of stuff on the wall but some of it is starting to slide down to the floor so we should have a clear picture soon.

 

[Johnnypenso]

So to summarize then, a handicap system is now officially off the table and we're back to car selection?

Assuming that's the case I want to re-open my campaign for a two car series, perhaps the street and race Impreza for the sake of example. In a six race season, the first half of the season in the street car at small to mid size tracks, perhaps Tsukuba, Deep Forest Reverse, GP/D etc., and the second half of the season in the race car at larger tracks like Road Course Indy, GP/F, Monza, Daytona etc.

Don't think anyone has ever done this before so it provides an interesting twist to the series, no tuning, only one extra car to buy for next to nothing. A Street Champion, A Race Car Champion and an Overall Champion. Boooyah!!

 

[BrandonW77]

^ What if I said I'm planning to only run 4 week championships? 2 weeks in the street car and 2 weeks in the race car?

 

[Johnnypenso]

^ What if I said I'm planning to only run 4 week championships? 2 weeks in the street car and 2 weeks in the race car?

That could work too but the shorter you get the more it would be suitable to be a one car series I would assume. And if you're hinting about running a string of monthly championships back to back to back with a fixed format where only the cars/tracks change every month that would change things as well and would make a single car format more suitable. I was assuming 6 weeks, at least a couple of race dates a week and then a 3 or 4 week break as in the past.

 

[TrackBound7]

If 4 weeks, I say 1 car...if 6 weeks, a street and race version switch half way through would be fun.

 

[BrandonW77]

Random idea: Impreza Cup
Week 1: 07 STI stock
Week 2: '10 STI stock
Week 3: Impreza RM
Week 4: Impreza TC

(or something along those lines)

 

[Marcus Garvey]

I am down for some understeer; let us do it. Imprezas. Bring many sets of tyres for the front axle hahahahah. However, yes; sounds good.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Random idea: Impreza Cup
Week 1: 07 STI stock
Week 2: '10 STI stock
Week 3: Impreza RM
Week 4: Impreza TC

(or something along those lines)

That could work but isn't that closer to the idea we just abandoned?

 

[RDAardvark]

Random idea: Impreza Cup
Week 1: 07 STI stock
Week 2: '10 STI stock
Week 3: Impreza RM
Week 4: Impreza TC

(or something along those lines)

That could work but isn't that closer to the idea we just abandoned?

If there are points for every week, that should get the crowds back.

 

[BrandonW77]

If there are points for every week, that should get the crowds back.

Exactly. I liked the format and I think others did too, it was the lack of points/serious competition that saw participation drop. At least with an all Subie format the cars would be very similar so it wouldn't be as big of a change from one week to the next.

 

[Blind829]

Exactly. I liked the format and I think others did too, it was the lack of points/serious competition that saw participation drop. At least with an all Subie format the cars would be very similar so it wouldn't be as big of a change from one week to the next.

FWIW, it was the constant switching of cars, tracks, etc last season that kept me away, not the lack of points or serious competition. I just simply didn't have the time to dedicate to keeping it all straight and also practicing and getting in sync with each car. To me, if you're only doing a 4 week season, perhaps pick 2 of cars instead of 4. I would have to agree with JP, four cars in four weeks seems too similar, the simpler it is to follow I would think the more people will join.