ORCA General Discussion

[BrandonW77]

words words words

There is no doubting the ability of a popular car used in spec racing over a series of popular tracks to bring in new blood. This would bring visibility back, and be the quickest/easiest solution to one part of the problem. The other part of the problem is finding out exactly why folks that were here left. There is no doubt an abundance of reasons from the timeslot, to the parity, to the types of cars we run. It may be beneficial to obtain some information from folks who left as to why they did so.

I do know some of the sources behind the exodus. Some left because they didn't like the reverse grid method we used to use, I changed to longer races for the Silvias but none of them really came back. I also had a few people PM me saying they were withdrawing because they had no chance of winning or even competing, which I totally understand because I have no chance of winning or really competing in a serious race with a large grid and that can really dampen your enthusiasm. Some others have left because I don't hand out enough penalties, or really any at all. If you look at all the ways we've changed you can see I've tried to address these things when I could, but I can only control so much.

As I mentioned earlier, there are some selfish reasons to it as well. Lots of you race in several groups and even public lounges so you get to race lots of cars. When I'm running a group that meets 2-3 times a week for official races and once or twice a week for practice, all I ever drove was the Capp or Alfa or Silvia. I knew this was necessary to attract and support a large group of drivers and it was very successful for a long time, but eventually my desire to enjoy other cars got pretty strong.

I also kept encountering problems with controlling a points series. Firstly, I'm rubbish with Excel so I need to enlist somebody else to do that for me (many thanks RDAardvark) and I don't like having to do that. I felt like I needed to be very cautious with track selection, i.e. we don't race at Cape Ring because the jump could ruin somebody's race and points championship. But mostly with the way the updates to the game can have a major change on how the game works it can (and has) make our existing rules and procedures obsolete. That became a major headache for me and really soured me on the experience.

I believe the main thing that keeps people coming back is fun cars, good racing, clean racing, and a good banter/community feeling. The points give us an excuse to do it but it's the adrenaline you get from being behind the wheel that really drives us to do it. I think there are a lot of things we can do and I've recently regained quite a bit of enthusiasm for the game, but I feel there are some untouched niche's that could be popular and successful......I just need help finding them. Hopefully it doesn't require a complete reinventing of the mousetrap, but it might. I always think back to the 450pp club, I really liked their format and it seemed to be quite successful, but I also like prohibited tuning and it's hard to combine the two.

That's it for now, gotta go play poker. Feel free to unleash Marcus, I'd like to know what you're thinking.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Do shuffle races even work? I've done maybe 5 or 6 of them in my "career" and every time I got stuck with some terrible car that didn't even come close to matching the other cars in the field so I've never attempted them again. Maybe they're better now but I wouldn't even know how to setup a room for shuffle racing.

I've been giving shuffle an honest effort for the first time over the last couple of months, perhaps one time per week and in my opinion, shuffle is more broken than just about any other form of racing. PP racing is closer than shuffle. It's not unusual to get stuck in complete duds that you have no chance of winning in, I don't care if you are DHolland or Schumacher, you have no chance. Forget winning, you have no chance to compete. The other night I was in a low PP Shuffle Room and got a car, I think it was a Toyota Soarer but I could be wrong. 6 laps at Autumn Ring, 380ish PP, everyone on CS tires. I finished last, dead last, 30 seconds off the winner. 30 seconds!!! I may not be the fastest driver around, but I don't know of anyone that's 5 seconds a lap faster than me at Autumn Ring..

That's just an example and sometimes it's the opposite. When I first join I tend to get a decent car, start at the front, and waltz away, which isn't any more fun than running last really. The car mix is just too erratic, you can't fix drivetrains to limit cars and there is always one or a few cars that just dominate at every PP level it seems. It all comes down to luck in whatever random car you get, and if you get 2 or 3 duds in a row it's really not much fun at all.

 

[carracerptp]

I've been giving shuffle an honest effort for the first time over the last couple of months, perhaps one time per week and in my opinion, shuffle is more broken than just about any other form of racing. PP racing is closer than shuffle. It's not unusual to get stuck in complete duds that you have no chance of winning in, I don't care if you are DHolland or Schumacher, you have no chance. Forget winning, you have no chance to compete. The other night I was in a low PP Shuffle Room and got a car, I think it was a Toyota Soarer but I could be wrong. 6 laps at Autumn Ring, 380ish PP, everyone on CS tires. I finished last, dead last, 30 seconds off the winner. 30 seconds!!! I may not be the fastest driver around, but I don't know of anyone that's 5 seconds a lap faster than me at Autumn Ring..

That's just an example and sometimes it's the opposite. When I first join I tend to get a decent car, start at the front, and waltz away, which isn't any more fun than running last really. The car mix is just too erratic, you can't fix drivetrains to limit cars and there is always one or a few cars that just dominate at every PP level it seems. It all comes down to luck in whatever random car you get, and if you get 2 or 3 duds in a row it's really not much fun at all.

The trick to shuffle racing, is race to EVERY NIGHT, you start mastering the dud cars and it gets more fun. But still, 55% of time it's less fun than it should be.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

I'll try and not let this get too twisted. I will also try and keep this as brief as possible. I am going to edit/consolidate some of the information as well, and I apologise to anyone who may feel slighted for this. Some posts I may simply reference rather than quote, and my ideas evolve as I respond to others' posts so I've begun to combine everyone's ideas into one. Hopefully the manner in which I have formatted the post will be easy to follow. Some of it will be out of post order, but hopefully in order of the discussion. I'll put it all together at the end, keeping this in mind;

And that's the general direction I'd like to go, have two or three weekly time slots, people show up as their schedules permit and we have a nice stable of cars that we choose from to race.

To lay down a bit of structure; we've established the first step which is to achieve the goal of more drivers, and its associated closer racing as Car makes a point of in his post. We've also identified the problem, as highlighted by JP.

I'm not as elegant or diplomatic as you so if I may be so bold, the issue I see with ORCA is, no offense to anyone intended, there is too much talking and not enough racing. I think Marcus is right, it would come across to the casual observer/interested newcomer as more of a social group that gathers for informal racing once in a while and every few months a big event. Unless you're part of the group/clique already, what reason would anyone have to join or come to a casual event?

JP's final question is actually an answer to the first step; which is that we need to do something to grow.

The next step is to identify the type of drivers we want to attract. Undeniably, different 'groups' cater to different types of drivers with different interests and skill levels. It is a different type of driver that looks for shuffle sprints versus spec endurance, for example.

Once identified, a series/league that would be attractive to the intended 'market' could be laid out, such as the weekly slots Brandon calls for above.

Next, a plan of methods targeted at the above identified types of drivers is necessary to make them aware of the group/series. This is where the open lobby/race here at X:xxPM comes into play.

Lastly, the execution is laid forth.

Starting off, a question I pose is; what type of drivers are we looking to attract?

I do know some of the sources behind the exodus. Some left because they didn't like the reverse grid method we used to use, I changed to longer races for the Silvias but none of them really came back. I also had a few people PM me saying they were withdrawing because they had no chance of winning or even competing, which I totally understand because I have no chance of winning or really competing in a serious race with a large grid and that can really dampen your enthusiasm. Some others have left because I don't hand out enough penalties, or really any at all. If you look at all the ways we've changed you can see I've tried to address these things when I could, but I can only control so much.

When answering the above, this is all important to consider. A serious series racer such as competes in PURE is going to be near the top of the skillset, but likely intolerant towards lackadaisical enforcement. All the same, the spectre of perpetual DFLs will discourage a lot of folks. It is evident that much has been done to bring about parity, but you cannot please everyone. I know that I have been guilty in affecting others' race, and I was spoken to. The effort is definitely there, and the above quote makes it important to consider what type of drivers we're looking for.

Once we know who to look for, we can begin to discuss where to look for them.

If we want a closer race then more drives are the best way to help it. What about opening a public room and letting people just show up? Call give the room a name with "SPEC" in the title I'll bet we will find many great racers.
We could run a 4 lap sprint race and could use that to weed out and "dirty" or just trolling drivers. Then run a few 10 lap features.
I have always wanted to try a setup like this. Anyone can join. SPEC rooms are hard to find and the good ones are always full of 10 players or more.

Just noticed Carr's post and that's certainly an idea worth considering, that is, doing it in an Open Lobby situation to recruit some new blood. You could even denote someone once in a while to just steward a race here and there to observe how the non-ORCA guys are driving. It could be an additional event along with regularly schedule ORCA races, and maybe an ORCA member could host the event.

If we have our normal core of 4-8 drivers already in the room setting an example then I think Random's might possibly mix in fairly nicely or at least bolster our numbers, I could prune out the trouble-makers that happen to wander in. If I use a consistent name for the room then the good drivers will recognize it and come back for more.

These are all great ideas, and I would combine them for sure. I would even volunteer to assess folks and be the bad guy, or hop in and run fender to fender. These ideas are where we need to spend the time to consider the type of racing to put on in these public lobbies to be most attractive to the folks we are looking for. For example, Spec/Recommended Garage sprint races often attract a different skill level than a generic 500PP run what ya brung type room. I think we're on the right path here.

I'm also sceptical that open lobbies could lead to enjoyable races, but I'm willing to try it. The game is old now, and people who are still playing are a bit more mature.

I, as well, have had mostly poor experiences in public rooms for various reasons. I even had such experiences recently in a public room hosted by a very reputable league. However, I think we can overcome some of the challenges with a vigilant steward. As well, the types of drivers that we're looking for will likely be tired of the same behaviour that we are, and be easier to spot.

The final step is to make good upon the execution. I volunteer to host/observe/execute these potential driver-seeking rooms. Brandon, I also volunteer for any additional administration a new series might require. I am not so wonderful with the computer as probably any of you, but I am up to speed on the rest of the sorts.

Those are the points that I feel we need to touch upon going forward.

Now, I'll speak off the hand for a moment. Personally, it doesn't matter to me whether I'm racing with 3 people or 13. I've noted before that my personal enjoyments will rarely parallel others'. I can drive around by myself for hours, and it could be said that I enjoy driving over racing. I don't even race much anymore, but I feel it is important to keep ORCA together. Otherwise, I'd have nowhere else to not race hahaha!

I also want to speak publicly to Brandon. You put in a lot of effort, seen and unseen to this group over the years. I would not consider the direction the group has gone to be the result of any 'selfish' decision. Unlike many others, ORCA doesn't have a dozen people all working different duties. I, for one, can accept a certain responsibility in advocating such a direction and the relative stagnation we've experienced in effect.

Lastly, I feel that with the proper input and enthusiasm, we can overcome these issues. I also will note that this post took me over an hour, with two phone interruptions; so I apologise if I wander. This also caused me to lose a bit of thought, but it'll likely come back to me. My short-term can be rather poor, you know.

 

[BrandonW77]

All good points Marcus, and thanks for the nice words. I consider a lot of those things whenever a run a series. For whatever reason we've been lucky and I've only ever had issues with a couple people, the majority have been friendly and race as clean as they can.

The two issues you didn't address are the ones I'm coming up blank on: cars and event format. Ideally I'd like to have several groups of cars for us to choose from and we can pick and choose depending on our mood. 325pp FR CS would be one group, we all have several of those cars setup and could whip them out if the room was change to those restrictions. If we can find two or three more groups like that then we have a nice garage to float around in. We could setup some sort of loose schedule to help keep things organized and moving forward, like the first week of the month is vintage cars, second week is ~450pp street cars, etc. repeat each month. Eventually everyone would get to know the schedule, just be able to look at the calendar to see what we're racing and have a group of prepped cars ready to go. After the first month everyone will have their cars in order and we could keep using them for weekly racing. Maybe we could try to find groups of cars that have a recommended garage car that fits in so everyone can always have access to a competitive car.

The second part is the format. Something I've thought about that could tie in with the weekly theme idea above would be to have the first three weeks of the month be just a series of shorter back-to-back-to-back reverse-grid races, basically an open lounge where people can come and go. For the fourth month we could take one of the groups of cars and have heat/reverse-grid enduro style race where we use the PP reduction. So one month could would be vintage car enduro, next month could be race car enduro, or an Alfa spec enduro, etc. We could even have a poll open the first three weeks and let people vote on what we race in the enduro. And if there's ever a month with five weeks we could run the Capp's on the fifth week.

Everything mentioned above would fit well in a public room too. We could have the monthly enduro in a private lounge and invite any randoms that prove to be good racers. Using the 325pp cars as an example, if we set the room to those restrictions there are only so many cars people are going to use, if they get in one of the slower ones they'll figure it out pretty quick and cast it aside. But we know in this range there isn't one car that is a "cheater" car so the random's that wander in should be able to find a car and fit in. Of course there are dangers of going to a public room, but I think a lot of the yahoo's will passby a room with restricted tuning that's not using racing tires and I would do a good job of policing it.

So we need to find some more groups of cars to add to our garages.

 

[Torzilla]

Not trying to shoot down ideas but I open public rooms with tuning prohibited and tire restrictions all the time and at most Ill get 1 or 2 people to join, and that takes like an hour. Although more people might join if we already have people in the room. I think the easiest way to get more people involved would be to run a series with some of the cars that dont seem to get enough exposure. I think running a Lotus Elise RM series or a BRZ spec series would get peoples attention, you guys know more cool cars than me so Im sure you can come up with suggestions. Ill be down with running any format and any cars as long as the cup holder fits my four loko can.

 

[SagarisGTB]

Just a few thoughts; pardon my intrusion.

<snip>
So we need to find some more groups of cars to add to our garages.

The biggest difficulty I can see with creating groups of cars is that the knowledge about cars with comparable speed/pp all of us created from our experiences racing, testing and doing time trials has been almost rendered useless when PD changed the pp system during the last update. That is a big step backwards when you start looking for groups of comparable cars. Nevertheless, I'm up for it. Old lap time charts with stock cars are still somewhat useful, and there's a lot of great minds in this group with a lot of experience. 👍

Not trying to shoot down ideas but I open public rooms with tuning prohibited and tire restrictions all the time and at most Ill get 1 or 2 people to join, and that takes like an hour. Although more people might join if we already have people in the room.

This is my experience as well. Starting new rooms with the racing specs recently used by the group would not attract many, but if you already have a half-full room, it's possible to attract new blood. It's possible to use open lobby pre-season mock races to advertise and recruit, and then move more serious events into private rooms to avoid party crashers. Such recruiting could yield 1 or 2 good new racers, who knows.

Just a thought, I don't really know if such a thing would work or even be worthwhile. Could be something to consider.

I think the easiest way to get more people involved would be to run a series with some of the cars that dont seem to get enough exposure. I think running a Lotus Elise RM series or a BRZ spec series would get peoples attention, you guys know more cool cars than me so Im sure you can come up with suggestions.

I am not a member of ORCA, but if I can say a word, I started racing with the group during the Alfa series, and one of the major things that initially attracted me to that series was the no-tuning spec racing (along with that great little car and the fact that the group looked well established and organized). So as long as spec racing lives with ORCA, no matter the car choice or race format, it's all good with me.

As for the cars Torzilla named, me (and I believe Carracer, perhaps others as well) has experience racing both those cars in GTP series (well, the GT86 instead of the BRZ), and I can vouch that they are both very good cars for spec racing. 👍

 

[BrandonW77]

I am not a member of ORCA......

This touches on what Marcus said and I think it could be an underlying part of the problem. I never intended ORCA to be a membership based thing, anyone whoever raced with us is a "member". But perhaps having a "brand name" like that creates the impression that you have to be a member to participate, or if you're not a member you're not welcome to join. The only reason I created that name was to give us some continuity as we moved away from the Capp Cup and into other series, so people could easily follow us as we changed cars/disciplines. That's it, I never intended it to be a clique or an exclusive club or anything like that.

So perhaps ORCA needs to go. I've thought about this recently, if I created a group/series/event called ORCA Vintage FR Challenge then outsiders may pass over it thinking it's only for a certain group of people. If I just called it Vintage FR Challenge then it would give the impression that it's open to anyone. The brand name served us well for a long time but I think it may be time to retire it. Also, if I don't plan on doing points championships now it doesn't make sense to have a name with "championship" in the title.

As for the public room, the few times I've tried to open a room with these kinds of restrictions I did not have many people join either. But in a way that's kind of a good thing, it means the idiots aren't interested in this kind of racing. But there are some people out there in Randomland looking for a regular place with good racing. We are generally good for 4-6 people on any given night, if people are browsing the rooms and see there are already a handful of people in there racing they are going to be more likely to check it out. Once they get in and see that the competition is good, the racing is clean and the room is well run they will stay for a while and likely come back. Even if only two or three people wander in, add that to the 4-6 regulars that are already in the room and suddenly we have a decent grid. I know the concept is a bit different and the negative stigma associated with public rooms is well deserved which is why I never really mentioned it. But seeing two or three other people mention it and support it makes me think it could be an idea worth checking out. I'm not looking to magically create a grid of 12-14 drivers every night, but I think it would be possible to get 6-10 drivers fairly regularly and that's enough for some good racing.

About the car selection, with tuning prohibited it's not easy but I think the 575pp and 325pp groups worked out nicely so it can be done. The way they changed the rating certainly doesn't help but it can still be done. One advantage is that I've really only driven Capps, Alfas and Silvias and I've done very little PP racing so I don't have any real pre-existing knowledge of car groupings that I need to unlearn. I did recently stumble upon this thread where a guy has tested over 300 cars in their stock form around the same track and charted the results. This is not based on a PP range, simply the stock performance of the car. As you look through the list you can see several groupings of cars that are within ~.5seconds of each other, so this could be a good place to start the hunt. The problem is that these cars may have wildly different PP ratings which would make setting up room restrictions difficult, but it's a starting point.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=268055

There's still the question of format, how we do the racing. I like the idea of casual nights through the week and then a monthly enduro-type race, this would satisfy some peoples desires for sprint races and other peoples desires for longer races. As several of you have mentioned, it wasn't the members or the rules or the fancy graphics that attracted you, it was the no-tuning and the Alfa and the racing we did with them. The other stuff is important and helps to mold the experience, but it's the actual time behind the wheel that brought people in and kept them coming back. The vintage cars seem to be a hit so that part of the equation is working, now I just need to figure out what to do with them and find other similar groups that work as well.

As for the cars Torzilla named, me (and I believe Carracer, perhaps others as well) has experience racing both those cars in GTP series (well, the GT86 instead of the BRZ), and I can vouch that they are both very good cars for spec racing. 👍

One of the "groupings" I've thought about is all BRZ/FRS/GT86/concept, since they're all basically the same car it would have the feeling of a spec race but with a slightly varied visual grid. Seeing as I'm a Subaruhead and my dad owns a BRZ it's a natural fit. But relating to the public room concept it's harder to force randoms into a certain car so we could just set the PP/drivetrain/tuning restrictions and hopefully there would be a natural selection of cars at that range that would be mostly GT86 derived cars, but if a few others sneak in and are competitive that's ok too.

 

[Johnnypenso]

...snip...

So perhaps ORCA needs to go. I've thought about this recently, if I created a group/series/event called ORCA Vintage FR Challenge then outsiders may pass over it thinking it's only for a certain group of people....snip...

As for the public room, the few times I've tried to open a room with these kinds of restrictions I did not have many people join either. But in a way that's kind of a good thing, it means the idiots aren't interested in this kind of racing. But there are some people out there in Randomland looking for a regular place with good racing.

...snip... I did recently stumble upon this thread where a guy has tested over 300 cars in their stock form around the same track and charted the results. This is not based on a PP range, simply the stock performance of the car. As you look through the list you can see several groupings of cars that are within ~.5seconds of each other, so this could be a good place to start the hunt. The problem is that these cars may have wildly different PP ratings which would make setting up room restrictions difficult, but it's a starting point.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=268055

There's still the question of format, how we do the racing. I like the idea of casual nights through the week and then a monthly enduro-type race, this would satisfy some peoples desires for sprint races and other peoples desires for longer races. As several of you have mentioned, it wasn't the members or the rules or the fancy graphics that attracted you, it was the no-tuning and the Alfa and the racing we did with them. The other stuff is important and helps to mold the experience, but it's the actual time behind the wheel that brought people in and kept them coming back. The vintage cars seem to be a hit so that part of the equation is working, now I just need to figure out what to do with them and find other similar groups that work as well.

One of the "groupings" I've thought about is all BRZ/FRS/GT86/concept, since they're all basically the same car it would have the feeling of a spec race but with a slightly varied visual grid. Seeing as I'm a Subaruhead and my dad owns a BRZ it's a natural fit. But relating to the public room concept it's harder to force randoms into a certain car so we could just set the PP/drivetrain/tuning restrictions and hopefully there would be a natural selection of cars at that range that would be mostly GT86 derived cars, but if a few others sneak in and are competitive that's ok too.

Dropping the ORCA name would be a mistake. Marketing 101 is develop the brand and make sure people associate your name with your product. Do you go out and buy a cellular phone or an iPhone or Blackberry? The problem with ORCA now is it's known as a social group not a racing group. Bring back the racing and the name will become known as a place to go spec racing with friendly people again.

If you want to do Open Lobbies, you have to be prepared to rule with an iron fist, or you will lose anyone that shows up that wants to play by the rules. If you're soft on violators forget it, it won't work. Example, and this is not a joke, this is how I run Open Lobbies when it's my turn:

Brandon shows up, sees all 10 drivers in an FRS, BRZ or GT86 so of course he pulls out his RX-8 and detunes it to fit the regs.
Host Johnny says, "Brandon, use the FRS, BRZ or GT86 only please"

Scenario 1
Brandon says, "ok" and immediately hops out of the RX-8 and into the proper car.
No problem, Brandon is a good guy.

Scenario 2
Brandon responds with "Insert anything other than ok here" and Host Johnny has a problem.
Brandon has authority issues. Brandon doesn't listen. Brandon doesn't respect the host. Brandon is a troll. Whatever, I'm not your Mommy and I don't have time for this crap.
Johnny boots Brandon from the room if he doesn't leave on his own within 15 seconds.

If you want to take the time to explain it's a spec race you can but you'll be doing that all night. In case you think I'm joking, I'm not. If you don't do this, you'll spend all night explaining what you are doing, why they need to pick a certain car, and if you let them hang around while you are explaining and starting the race, many of them will jump into a random car after you start the countdown and are on the track already, probably trash the race, and you will have to quit and boot them anyway. That just pisses off all the guys following the regs and wanting a clean race and they'll realize the host is a pu$$y and the room sucks.

If you can't rule with an iron fist when you need to, you can't host an Open Lobby and expect it to be anything but chaos most of the time. Open Lobbies suck mostly because hosts suck and are afraid to boot people. Great Open Lobbies, and there are some, are characterized by hosts that are no nonsense, and do what needs to be done without worrying about hurting anyone's feelings.

As far as the format goes, I think that most GT5'ers these days are more interested in a series of long sprints as opposed to an enduro. Yes some are still interested in longer races in a series setting, but you're not going to be keeping points or anything and there's no championship. Your average skilled driver isn't that good at pit strategy or managing tire wear, nor interested in running around alone for 45 minutes. I would think that a series of 6-15 laps sprints depending on how long the track is and how fast the cars are would be more popular. If you have a bad race or two, you don't have to wait a week to try again. 15 minutes later you are back on track racing again with another shot at glory. So mostly sprints with a longer race once in a while is good idea.

The BRZ/FRS/GT86/concept can work, finding groups of cars can work, but again, I don't believe that most guys really care about having a group of cars to choose from that are equal. To be blunt, and I could be misjudging this completely I admit, we don't care about a visually stunning grid we just want to race. Sure it's cool, makes for a nice photo and all, but it's not so important to racers that they want to wait weeks and weeks for a group of cars to develop before racing them. Yes it's fun, and if you can get it to work it's great, but I think they'd be just as happy with an entire field in one or two spec cars most of the time so long as you are racing. Work on the car groupings in the background and in the foreground conduct spec racing with popular cars on a weekly basis or more often.

And you don't need to limit it to one car. You can simply say, "Next week we'll be racing the 2002 RX7 Spirit R Premium and the RGT Standard so break em' in and bring em' along" Alternate cars back and forth. Run 3 in each car. Do whatever you want. Everyone has a week to obtain the cars and get them ready. At this point, most guys have hundreds of cars and if you don't have one of the cars, someone will send you one.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

The two issues you didn't address are the ones I'm coming up blank on: cars and event format.

I chose not to get into specifics, as I wanted to hear what you and others had to say first. I do have a couple of ideas, however. My picture of the most attractive format to inject some immediate enthusiasm back in parallels Torzilla's following bit.

Not trying to shoot down ideas but I open public rooms with tuning prohibited and tire restrictions all the time and at most Ill get 1 or 2 people to join, and that takes like an hour. Although more people might join if we already have people in the room. I think the easiest way to get more people involved would be to run a series with some of the cars that dont seem to get enough exposure. I think running a Lotus Elise RM series or a BRZ spec series would get peoples attention, you guys know more cool cars than me so Im sure you can come up with suggestions. Ill be down with running any format and any cars as long as the cup holder fits my four loko can.

I haven't hosted any lobbies since shortly after GT5 was released, but your first mention is much the experience I recall. Again, agreeing with the series race featuring a unique car; I would position that as the 'main' attraction and utilise the other methods we've discussed as sourcing and vetting of new folks to join said series. This is where the 325PP Vintage, GT, and the spec/recommended public rooms can be used to attract a couple of others to potentially supplement the grid. I would position those types of racing as support series, or feeders to the main series. This could all be organised using those few days every week that Brandon laid out previously; such as one day is the feature series and the other two are those support events.

Starting new rooms with the racing specs recently used by the group would not attract many, but if you already have a half-full room, it's possible to attract new blood. It's possible to use open lobby pre-season mock races to advertise and recruit, and then move more serious events into private rooms to avoid party crashers. Such recruiting could yield 1 or 2 good new racers, who knows.

This is my thought as well; would be to host the group we already have in a public lobby. It would be necessary to have already 4 of us at least, as grip numbers draw more grid numbers. I agree that a net of 1-2 is a fair assessment of the potential. Again, I picture this supplementing the folks that I would expect attract here on GTP with the main series.

I am not a member of ORCA, but if I can say a word, I started racing with the group during the Alfa series, and one of the major things that initially attracted me to that series was the no-tuning spec racing (along with that great little car and the fact that the group looked well established and organized). So as long as spec racing lives with ORCA, no matter the car choice or race format, it's all good with me.

Haha to the first sentence. You are one of the core folks that attend most of the hooliganism and series races since I found this group around the same time. None of us have been officiated or anything haha. I do agree that spec racing series is the core attracting feature to the group. That is where I perceive the group experienced it's previous peak.

This touches on what Marcus said and I think it could be an underlying part of the problem. I never intended ORCA to be a membership based thing, anyone whoever raced with us is a "member". But perhaps having a "brand name" like that creates the impression that you have to be a member to participate, or if you're not a member you're not welcome to join. The only reason I created that name was to give us some continuity as we moved away from the Capp Cup and into other series, so people could easily follow us as we changed cars/disciplines. That's it, I never intended it to be a clique or an exclusive club or anything like that.

So perhaps ORCA needs to go. I've thought about this recently, if I created a group/series/event called ORCA Vintage FR Challenge then outsiders may pass over it thinking it's only for a certain group of people. If I just called it Vintage FR Challenge then it would give the impression that it's open to anyone. The brand name served us well for a long time but I think it may be time to retire it. Also, if I don't plan on doing points championships now it doesn't make sense to have a name with "championship" in the title.

I don't feel it necessary to drop the ORCA name from the group, as it identifies the premise that it is known for. Until our recent hiatus from series racing, I believe the group was viewed as a spec racing club. I think that is still there, but I agree the front that the title creates can be intimidating to new folks. I would perhaps omit the ORCA from the thread title at least intially for a new series, but I would still at least mention the premise of the group in the first post. As JP mentions while I'm typing, the name is recognised by those who have been on GTP for a while; which is where I think most of our gains will be made.

There's still the question of format, how we do the racing. I like the idea of casual nights through the week and then a monthly enduro-type race, this would satisfy some peoples desires for sprint races and other peoples desires for longer races. As several of you have mentioned, it wasn't the members or the rules or the fancy graphics that attracted you, it was the no-tuning and the Alfa and the racing we did with them. The other stuff is important and helps to mold the experience, but it's the actual time behind the wheel that brought people in and kept them coming back. The vintage cars seem to be a hit so that part of the equation is working, now I just need to figure out what to do with them and find other similar groups that work as well.

One of the "groupings" I've thought about is all BRZ/FRS/GT86/concept, since they're all basically the same car it would have the feeling of a spec race but with a slightly varied visual grid. Seeing as I'm a Subaruhead and my dad owns a BRZ it's a natural fit. But relating to the public room concept it's harder to force randoms into a certain car so we could just set the PP/drivetrain/tuning restrictions and hopefully there would be a natural selection of cars at that range that would be mostly GT86 derived cars, but if a few others sneak in and are competitive that's ok too.

This is the direction I see as the most beneficial. Get back to what the group did best and was known for.

To summarise, I would develop a main series using the formula that is known to work. Then I would utilise the ideas that have been put forth here to supplement. I would keep the ORCA moniker, but detail the premise in the first post something along the lines of ORCA is the sanctioning entity and not a prerquisite for entry. Certainly the prevalence of groups here that do require 'membership' or other form of commitment can affect the initial interpretation people make. Perhaps we should detail that in the first post as well.

So that's about it from me. Believe it or not, I actually don't prefer organised series racing,and that is why in my previous post I mentioned that I accept some responsiblity in advocating a more relaxed organization.

I apologise for the post being choppy and sloppy; this has been posted via cellular.

 

[dsgerbc]

I'll be honest: changing things quite a bit just to try to recruit a few randoms in public lobbies seems just like that idea of moving to a club form. Supposedly has both benefits and drawbacks, but in reality (where general GT5 participation is falling) is likely to have only the latter. Regulars will get agitated with BS from randoms and stop coming. I would not go there.

I'd try to recruit from people who are still on this board, and for that we'd need to run a spec points series. Could be a short one, there could be a PP penalty as discussed, reverse grids etc. Add a flashy car (cough, yellowbird, cough) and we'll get new people. All of this doesn't have to be handled by Brandon, other people, me included, can host the room, do the points etc.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Marcus has a good point about the Open Lobbies. The Open Lobby deal is simply a way to recruit, to race, to enjoy driving, to be on track, it isn't the focus of racing here. It's an addition to the normal activities that are going on around here with spec racing, vintage cars etc. A normal race night could be Tuesday, with a Saturday afternoon thrown in for example, and Marcus or another ORCA driver might host an Open Lobby on Wednesday or Thursday. If someone wants to join they can, if not, they don't. If no one wants to host for a week or two, then it doesn't get done.

As I said, Open Lobbies can provide great racing, but it takes a good host willing to make quick decisions and not worry about hurting feelings. I used to run them quite often but I had a series of race hosts on my friends list that ran good rooms so it was easy to find somewhere to go. I got tired of always running on racing softs so I kind of got away from it. I have started a couple of lobbies recently with NoABS and they were exceptional in racing quality.

 

[BrandonW77]

@JP, while I treat existing members with kid gloves I always rule random's with an iron fist. If I see someone pop in I don't know I would quickly tell them this is a club running certain cars, they're welcome to participate if they play by the rules. If they don't comply immediately they receive the steel-toed end of the boot. In theory, if somebody is willing to quickly comply then they will likely be fairly well-behaved on track and would mostly be benefit to the grid. As you said, if the room is run properly the people wandering around out there looking for good racing will realize it and and come back for more, the people who are j#$@-offs won't be interested and will (hopefully) learn not to come around. I'm not necessarily looking at this as a recruiting tool, but if we're hurting for numbers and there are a few clean randoms out there looking for good racing then I think we could give them a chance and bolster our grid.

And yes, the testing of new groups of cars is something that would go on behind the scenes. We would have scheduled nights (like Tuesday and Saturday) that we go to the public rooms but on other nights a few of us could test cars in private rooms. Or I could just give Marcus a desired group/target, since he loves just driving cars and testing them (and he's as consistent as you'll find) it would probably take no time at all for him to find 3 or 4 cars in a range that work well together. I understand your comment about the visually pleasing grid, but that's not really the goal. If we're going to do this in a public room it's much easier to get them to behave if you just have a PP/drivetrain/tire range and don't try to coral them into one car............something about herding cats comes to mind. If we're going to stick to GTP where things are organized ahead of time then we could just pick a car and expect everyone to stick to it.

@Marcus, yes and yes to all that. I don't have any direct responses at the moment but I agree with and support your comments.

@DSG, see my comments to JP. I am well aware of the huge potential for problems and obviously recruiting people from GTP would be much more desirable. However, it seems a lot of people on here aren't interested in racing with us anymore for whatever reasons. I understand that my lack of direction and consistency over the last few months is part of the reason we've lost people, perhaps a clear game plan and consistent racing will lure some of them back but I think a lot of them are gone for good. Turning to a public room to remedy these issues seems like an awfully drastic and hair-brained solution, but it's something I haven't tried and there could be some potential there. We would know pretty quick if it's going to work or not and if it turns out to be a disaster I'd quickly abandon the concept. But for now while I'm wandering aimlessly trying to figure out what to do next it could be a good test-bed. I certainly don't want to do anything to alienate our few remaining regulars, but at the same time it could be good to do all of this random testing with randoms and wait to present the final product to the GTP community until it's nice and polished. But again, I don't want to put up with the possible headaches you alluded to so if it proves to be a cluster like typical public rooms then it would quickly get ditched.

Re: your comments about other people taking duties, yes that would work and I'd be more inclined to do a traditional points series if I could make it work. I've attempted to delegate responsibilities to others in the past, but with the exception of the Super Mr. RDAardvark I have been let down every time so I've just opted to do everything myself. If you want something done right...... I have more confidence that you and Marcus would be much more capable and willing, and because you've both been around a while you're familiar with how I like to handle things. So perhaps it's worth looking into, if I had somebody dedicated to updating the points spreadsheet and somebody dedicated to handling incidents/complaints then most of the things that burn me out would be resolved. But some of my other issues with doing a points series would remain (track selections, rules, game updates, etc.) My grand goal is to create something that isn't fully dependent on me to keep things rolling, something self-sustaining that grows on its on and eventually is mostly run by the members involved, while the means to that end have eluded me I do know that a traditional points series is not compatible with that vision.

Good info being shared and discussed here guys, I appreciate the honest feedback. Don't fret, nothing that's been discussed so far is planned or scheduled or set it stone. We're throwing stuff against the wall here to see what sticks. I know if I want something to succeed it needs to be of interest to the majority and I need input to make that happen. I generally know what I want, but as we've seen when I break the mold and do solely what I desire it doesn't have the best of results. So I need to take what I want and what the majority wants and find a happy middle ground that pleases everyone.

I plan on experimenting with a public room tonight, we'll see what kind of results it has so we can continue the discussion on that topic. I don't really have high hopes for it, but it's worth trying and at least it's something slightly new/different. I have a strong feeling that there's potential in the public room idea...............but that feeling might just be heartburn.



My..........this has become a wordy thread!!

 

[Torzilla]

I plan on experimenting with a public room tonight, we'll see what kind of results it has so we can continue the discussion on that topic. I don't really have high hopes for it, but it's worth trying and at least it's something slightly new/different. I have a strong feeling that there's potential in the public room idea...............but that feeling might just be heartburn.



My..........this has become a wordy thread!!

Im not around tonight but there is a blizzard headed for the northeast US tomorrow so I imagine that could be a good opportunity to set up an online room since everyone will be snowed in. I also think a posting title in the with something like "ORCA (insert car or PP here) series sign ups open to all" would solve any confusion of new people looking to sign up.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

Well, for my shortest post in days.....I'll be online in *probably* round an hour. I've got to go out and make fun of some folks first, and possibly scare some of them, so I'll be back afterwards.

 

[BrandonW77]

Well, for my shortest post in days.....I'll be online in *probably* round an hour. I've got to go out and make fun of some folks first, and possibly scare some of them, so I'll be back afterwards.

I'll be on in about 15, I'll post a room number here and we'll see what happens.

 

[carracerptp]

Well, for my shortest post in days.....I'll be online in *probably* round an hour. I've got to go out and make fun of some folks first, and possibly scare some of them, so I'll be back afterwards.

In what context does that make sense?


I'm on now. So shoot me a PSN message when the room opens if you get the time.

 

[BrandonW77]

In what context does that make sense?

I'm on now. So shoot me a PSN message when the room opens if you get the time.

Room is open now, lets see what happens. I'd guess we won't see too many people wander in.

1472-6399-8365-2934-6692

 

[Marcus Garvey]

In what context does that make sense?

Hhaha when a panic stricken and frightened citizenry flock to the retail paying places like locust in search of bread, milk, and eggs. Oh, and lager and stout.

 

[carracerptp]

Room closed.
It seems I'm not very good at ABS OFF right now and Brandon should never start a police chase with his PIT recovery skills .

 

[Marcus Garvey]

Did everyone else get the boot as well? I came back to a 'disconnected' screen.

 

[BrandonW77]

Well I had the room open for about two hours and only two randoms came in. One looked at the restrictions and left, the other actually looked around for a car and put a few laps in. Then we tried to race and I got booted. I saw the random on track for about half a lap, seemed to be well behaved. We can't draw much from one short session, but I think most people would pass over a room with those settings and the few that do join are probably doing so because they want some good racing. If not they'd get the swift boot.

We stumbled upon a possibly interesting concept as far as the parity effort goes. Instead of having winners remove power from their car we could make them run with abs off. It's a different kind of penalty, if they're really good they could be just as fast with abs off but they're likely to be a little less consistent and there's a slightly higher chance they could lock them up or make a mistake that would allow others to catch up. It would be a little harder to work your way up through a reverse grid too. It's not a stiff penalty, but it's an interesting that could have a good effect. When you're by yourself it's not much of a penalty at all but when you're in traffic or fighting for position it suddenly becomes a little more evident.

I didn't think it would work but we tested it and we can police this easily. Disable abs and let the penalty recipient(s) into the track, turn abs back on and let the rest of the group in. I figured you'd be able to just use the button on your wheel to turn abs back on but if you enter the track with "abs off" the option will be grayed out on your quick change menu as long as you stay on the track or in the pits, even after the race starts. But people who came in after the ban was lifted can enter with abs on and have full control of it on the quick menu. It sounds interesting, could have potential and feels a little more fair than removing power. Real easy to control too.

...and Brandon should never start a police chase with his PIT recovery skills .

That was seriously textbook stuff. I spun instantly, had no control and went all the way around. Nice job, you've been paying attention during the police chase shows. 👍

 

[SagarisGTB]

We stumbled upon a possibly interesting concept as far as the parity effort goes. Instead of having winners remove power from their car we could make them run with abs off. It's a different kind of penalty, if they're really good they could be just as fast with abs off but they're likely to be a little less consistent and there's a slightly higher chance they could lock them up or make a mistake that would allow others to catch up. It would be a little harder to work your way up through a reverse grid too. It's not a stiff penalty, but it's an interesting that could have a good effect. When you're by yourself it's not much of a penalty at all but when you're in traffic or fighting for position it suddenly becomes a little more evident.

I didn't think it would work but we tested it and we can police this easily. Disable abs and let the penalty recipient(s) into the track, turn abs back on and let the rest of the group in. I figured you'd be able to just use the button on your wheel to turn abs back on but if you enter the track with "abs off" the option will be grayed out on your quick change menu as long as you stay on the track or in the pits, even after the race starts. But people who came in after the ban was lifted can enter with abs on and have full control of it on the quick menu. It sounds interesting, could have potential and feels a little more fair than removing power. Real easy to control too.

It may be the case that some of us regularly drive without ABS of our own choosing. I drove one or two of the Silvia races without ABS and there was very little time loss once I got used to it. I think JP might be just as fast without ABS as he is with it. I don't want to say too much on the subject, and please don't be offended as I'm sure this was not your intention and what I say may not even be entirely correct, but my first impression is that is sounds like a biased penalty because of the potential variability in no-ABS experience among drivers in the group.

Nevertheless, if it is applied, it is very easy to monitor. You don't even have to change regulation settings, you can check who is using ABS and who is not by moving your cursor over their name in the room before a race/session (with the same method most people use to check a driver's tire choice).

 

[BrandonW77]

^ I wasn't thinking so much about producing slower times, just introducing a greater possibility to make mistakes. But I though about it more after posting that and I realize that in practice it probably wouldn't make much of an impact and therefore wouldn't be worth the hassle. It doesn't really feel right to me to slow somebody down for winning and this was a way to possibly add a variable without actually slowing someone down, at least not significantly. With ABS off it would be possible for a driver to be just as fast but it makes them work a bit harder to achieve it. But for people that regularly race with ABS off it probably wouldn't have an effect. It was interesting enough that I thought it was worth mentioning though.

So, I realize I'm floundering right now and the longer we flounder the harder it will be to get something successful going again. Instead of trying to reinvent the mousetrap (for now) I think I'll just take some of my ideas and combine them with what we know works. Many of you said it was spec, tuning prohibited racing that brought you here and kept you coming back and I want a more relaxed format without points. Looking at JP's DeadNuts thread I see he's using pretty much the format I'd like to do and it seems to work very well: Room opens followed by a short practice session and then lots of back to back sprint-type races..........more racing less hot lapping/chatting. How to combine the two?

Every month I will select a "spec" car that we will race for the month. Tuesday and Saturday can be our "official" race days, I'll open the lounge for practice at say 7:30 on Tuesday and at 8 the racing will start. 5 lappers, 8 lappers, 12 lappers, depending on the track. Each successive race will be a reverse grid. We won't worry about any kind of success penalty for now, we can try to add that in after we get everything else nailed down. The first three weeks of the month could be the sprint races and the fourth week of the month could be "enduro" week where we do two longer races in a night instead of lots of short ones. Then it would be a new month and we'd have a new car to start over with.

The weekly races could be at whatever tracks the room wants to run but the enduro week races will have a scheduled track that will be made known at the beginning of the month so we have time to practice. Or I could schedule a certain track for each week and we just stay at one track all night, which would really give the whole thing the feel of a points series. We'd mostly race just one spec car every month but I might occasionally have a pair of spec cars that race together, probably no more than two but most of the time it would just be one car. All with tuning prohibited of course and likely on less grippy tires.

All of this would be very easy to do, doesn't require a lot of rules or going to public rooms and it will see us driving a variety of cars, just not as many at a time. The only real work on my end is selecting the cars/tracks, but I could let members make suggestions for cars and track too or have a poll/vote. It has spec racing, tune-free racing, and mainly just more racing in general and less practice/chit-chat. It also isn't dependent on me to be there to host all the time, anybody could open the room on race days or any other days. And.....I could have it all up and running by the first of the month with no problem.

Thoughts?

 

[Marcus Garvey]

Every month I will select a "spec" car that we will race for the month. Tuesday and Saturday can be our "official" race days, I'll open the lounge for practice at say 7:30 on Tuesday and at 8 the racing will start. 5 lappers, 8 lappers, 12 lappers, depending on the track. Each successive race will be a reverse grid. We won't worry about any kind of success penalty for now, we can try to add that in after we get everything else nailed down. The first three weeks of the month could be the sprint races and the fourth week of the month could be "enduro" week where we do two longer races in a night instead of lots of short ones. Then it would be a new month and we'd have a new car to start over with.

The weekly races could be at whatever tracks the room wants to run but the enduro week races will have a scheduled track that will be made known at the beginning of the month so we have time to practice. Or I could schedule a certain track for each week and we just stay at one track all night, which would really give the whole thing the feel of a points series. We'd mostly race just one spec car every month but I might occasionally have a pair of spec cars that race together, probably no more than two but most of the time it would just be one car. All with tuning prohibited of course and likely on less grippy tires.

All of this would be very easy to do, doesn't require a lot of rules or going to public rooms and it will see us driving a variety of cars, just not as many at a time. The only real work on my end is selecting the cars/tracks, but I could let members make suggestions for cars and track too or have a poll/vote. It has spec racing, tune-free racing, and mainly just more racing in general and less practice/chit-chat. It also isn't dependent on me to be there to host all the time, anybody could open the room on race days or any other days. And.....I could have it all up and running by the first of the month with no problem.

Thoughts?

👍

 

[BrandonW77]

Quite the positive response!

 

[Mudd]

That sounds awesome, B!


~quietly slips back into the shadows~

 

[BrandonW77]

That sounds awesome, B!

~quietly slips back into the shadows~

This is my most favorite post of the year!

And this might be the runner-up:

I think the first car we use will be the next best thing to the Alfa: the Miura.

In fact, I think I might hop online tonight and take the Miura for a spin.

 

[carracerptp]

Yes, yes, yes, yes!!!!!!!!!!
👍

 

[Marcus Garvey]

I am surprised that there hasn't been much of a response either way when considering the recent activity here on the topic.
I may be on this evening periodically, but I cannot say for sure.