ORCA General Discussion

[carracerptp]

I am surprised that there hasn't been much of a response either way when considering the recent activity here on the topic.
I may be on this evening periodically, but I cannot say for sure.

I think everyone ran out of words.

 

[BrandonW77]

I think everyone ran out of words.

We hit our monthly word cap. Lol

 

[SagarisGTB]

I'm going out for ice cream now (that season eh...), but I'll jump in when I get back.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

Studies say that most Americans don't read as much as they should haha.

 

[BrandonW77]

I'm going out for ice cream now (that season eh...), but I'll jump in when I get back.

I have no idea what that means.....unless "ice cream" is code, then I know what you mean.

I just cracked open my six-pack, 'bout to fire up the GT5 machine and open the lounge.

 

[MikaelK]

I am surprised that there hasn't been much of a response either way when considering the recent activity here on the topic.

As another one said, I have also been hiding a bit in the shadows, before commenting on the recent discussion about the format...
Being one of the few euro-timeslot drivers, I haven't been participating that much in the recent activities, and hence that, I am only a small minority compared to the NA-based ppl racing together more regulary...
So I am aware that the focus should be kept on the needs of the larger group of drivers...
But...

.
At this point I'm willing to entertain just about any idea so if anybody has any suggestions please feel free. Our attendance/participation has dropped dangerously low and we need to do something that will get more people involved, otherwise we may be near the end.

Capp Cup!

I actually enjoyed running those cars despite being new and completely ******.
I still maintain that those and the Alfa's were the best racing I've experienced with this group.

I do agree to above statements...
I joined the ORCA during the Capp-cups, and enjoyed the regular schedules, being able to just show up and race...
Also on the switch to the Alfa's, it only took a few hours to learn to know the car, and then again.. just fun racing with a bunch of friendly drivers.

Now, as to comment upon the participation level. I will always be here, as I've said numerous times. In fact, I prefer an evening of casual driving with this group to all of the other options out there. It is, however, undeniable that we've lost some people along the way. I am late arrival to this party, as I never competed in the Cappucinos, but joined with the Alfas. There are a few theories as to why a series/club can fall out of popularity. We have moved to a more casual format, potentially turning away those who came for a big show. Also, the move from the 'series' format and forum to the 'leagues' might have limited some potential exposure to new members.

... snip ...

There is no doubting the ability of a popular car used in spec racing over a series of popular tracks to bring in new blood. This would bring visibility back, and be the quickest/easiest solution to one part of the problem. The other part of the problem is finding out exactly why folks that were here left. There is no doubt an abundance of reasons from the timeslot, to the parity, to the types of cars we run. It may be beneficial to obtain some information from folks who left as to why they did so.

... the issue I see with ORCA is, no offense to anyone intended, there is too much talking and not enough racing. I think Marcus is right, it would come across to the casual observer/interested newcomer as more of a social group that gathers for informal racing once in a while and every few months a big event.

Unless you're part of the group/clique already, what reason would anyone have to join or come to a casual event? I think most new guys and established guys for that matter, just want clearly defined rules and regulations and regularly scheduled events. They'll take the banter that comes along with it, but if you're a new guy how can you banter with anyone if you're not racing? Doesn't mean an elaborate championship or points or prizes necessarily although that can help. I believe that something just as simple as "show up at this time and date with this car(s) and let's race". And by that I don't mean posting it at 3PM the day of, but a week or more in advance

...snip...

Only over time with regular events and clearly defined goals and objectives, will you attract new blood to any series or league and keep the old blood around and interested. After all we're here mainly for racing, not talking. The talking and social part of it is great, but without the racing it's just a social group, not a racing group.

In other words, I think what works best, is to just establish a formula or idea, schedule events, and soldier on regardless of attendance. If 4 people show up to race, you have to continue regardless, and hope to build momentum. If you want to race vintage cars for a month, one make spec another month, Cappy's another month, I don't think it really matters as long as it's cars that appeal to the majority of the group and the races are scheduled and the format is well defined.

This analysis from both Marcus and JP, hits the head on the nail, as to why I have become less frequent participating in the 'casual driving' (apart from the still fewer euro-friendly timeslots, due to absence of euro-drivers)...
The continuous on-going 'testing, comparing and switching' of different pp-levels cars and how they fit together, tend to take to much time away from the rather limited 'race-time' I have available to use on GT5... On a weekly basis I am most likely only to get 2-3 hours available for GT5, if any, and would like to 'just race' in those hours...
As an example, the task to acquire, break-in and test only some of the proposed 325-pp vintage cars took me 2 weeks of combined play-time... And then I didn't even got to run with you all under any 'real' race-conditions.

From the time of the Capp-Cup and Alfa's, the events was all about racing... I liked that.. A lot..
This doesn't mean, that we should go back to/limit ourself to these cars, but in order to hold on to or even gain new drivers, I also think we need to stick to a set format, for a little longer than a few weeks. Most likely a couple of month.
And unfortunately, I do believe that the racing for points is the best way to keep the interest.. No matter if you are front, middle or backpack-driver.. We all like to measure up against another individual.

I do know some of the sources behind the exodus. Some left because they didn't like the reverse grid method we used to use, I changed to longer races for the Silvias but none of them really came back. I also had a few people PM me saying they were withdrawing because they had no chance of winning or even competing, which I totally understand because I have no chance of winning or really competing in a serious race with a large grid and that can really dampen your enthusiasm. Some others have left because I don't hand out enough penalties, or really any at all. If you look at all the ways we've changed you can see I've tried to address these things when I could, but I can only control so much.

As I mentioned earlier, there are some selfish reasons to it as well. Lots of you race in several groups and even public lounges so you get to race lots of cars. When I'm running a group that meets 2-3 times a week for official races and once or twice a week for practice, all I ever drove was the Capp or Alfa or Silvia. I knew this was necessary to attract and support a large group of drivers and it was very successful for a long time, but eventually my desire to enjoy other cars got pretty strong.

I also kept encountering problems with controlling a points series. Firstly, I'm rubbish with Excel so I need to enlist somebody else to do that for me (many thanks RDAardvark) and I don't like having to do that. I felt like I needed to be very cautious with track selection, i.e. we don't race at Cape Ring because the jump could ruin somebody's race and points championship. But mostly with the way the updates to the game can have a major change on how the game works it can (and has) make our existing rules and procedures obsolete. That became a major headache for me and really soured me on the experience.

I believe the main thing that keeps people coming back is fun cars, good racing, clean racing, and a good banter/community feeling. The points give us an excuse to do it but it's the adrenaline you get from being behind the wheel that really drives us to do it....

For the record.. I do like both the short and longer races.. but mostly the longer. The shorter races tends to be to much alike of the PD seasonals.
And I do not mind, not winning or not having a chance.. As long as the racing is clean and gentleman-like. This I really enjoy!
And as a bonus, there is a lot of humorous friendly 'banter' in the threads and during/prior to the races or testing-sessions.

These are the primary reasons that I continue to stick to this group, and to pop in from time to time to participate!

 

[BrandonW77]

Wise words

Thanks Mikael, there's some very helpful info there. I think I know what I need to do to make a more enjoyable experience for everyone. Spec cars, regular schedule/format and more racing. 👍

 

[Johnnypenso]

...snip..

...and snip....

Every month I will select a "spec" car that we will race for the month. ...snip...

We'd mostly race just one spec car every month but I might occasionally have a pair of spec cars that race together, probably no more than two but most of the time it would just be one car. All with tuning prohibited of course and likely on less grippy tires.


Thoughts?

I like the idea of moving forward, but in a game with 1000 cars I'm not real fond of running the same car for an entire month. Inside of a points series yes of course that's a given, but if we're just getting together for fun and banging out laps, the more cars the merrier. There are so many good spec cars in this game, at all PP levels, to me it would be a real shame to be stuck in the same car for an entire month.

Ideally I'd much rather see a different car every week or at worst, two weeks. You can stick to all the standard popular cars that most of us are going to have after 2 years of acquiring cars of course and premiums are always available to everyone, any time. In the off chance that someone doesn't have a particular car, I'm sure lot of us would be willing to step forward and dupe a car any time. With a couple of weeks heads up on car selection I'm sure it won't be an issue at all.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

The above posts by both Mikael and JP are the reasons I spoke to a main spec series and using the newly developed parity groups as support series. It seems there is enthusiasm for both ideas from different parties, and certainly diversifying has the opportunity to expose ORCA to a greater number of people and interests.

I fully support Brandon's format for a spec series, and along with Mikael feel this would carry the greatest ROI for gaining new folks in grid. I also sympathise with JP's remarks and feel they parallel some folks who haven't vocalised in this thread. I think we can make both work as I detailed in a previous post.......but this would require Brandon delegating duties to others. I volunteer to help. Whatever you need.

I was going to hop into the lounge in a bit, but it seems I am unable to sign on the PSN. Being that most of the Sony-related sites are also either under a DDOS or experiencing very high traffic, I suspect I am not alone.

 

[BrandonW77]

I like the idea of moving forward, but in a game with 1000 cars I'm not real fond of running the same car for an entire month. I

Ideally I'd much rather see a different car every week or at worst, two weeks. With a couple of weeks heads up on car selection I'm sure it won't be an issue at all.

I tried that idea before, we ran a different car every week and I posted the whole month's schedule ahead of time. I had several people say they didn't have the time (or desire) to acquire and break in a new car every week and had a hard time keeping track of what we were racing. This is when we began to see the drop off in participation.

I agree with the sentiment, the desire to drive more cars is what lead to my deviation from the standard points series format. But I understand that some people don't have the time to always be prepping new cars (I have nearly 1000 cars in my garage but not many of them are ready to race). Another thing is that not everyone has time to race twice or even once a week so changing as often as two weeks could mean they only get to race the car once or twice (refer to Mikael's comments above). So a month may be a little on the longer side but I feel it's better than the alternative. Maybe we could do three weeks and the fourth week alternates between the Capp and the Alfa? It doesn't add more cars but keeps the featured car from getting stale and brings back more of the cars that made us what we are. 👍

We'd basically be a Car of the Month Club with a bit of the old standards Capp and Alfa sprinkled in. The recurring themes people have mentioned here have been spec cars, simple format/schedule, more racing and a return to our roots of the Capp/Alfa. The plan I laid out attempts to address all of those issues and I also left open the possibility to have two different but equal cars featured for the month which would allow us to enjoy a few more of the cars in the game. It is just a foundation though, if there are ways I can adjust it to make it more appealing/accessible I'm more than willing.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

Well, I found out that the PSN is not down, and the sites that I was unable to access are the result of some error with the server routing and my ISP's current situation. I was able to alter some settings in the PS3 and access the PSN, however I still cannot access many websites including those of my email client, company site, and several other industry sites that I required today. It has taken many lagers to get to the bottom of this, but I have learned a few things along the way. As fun as they may be I bloody hate electronics!

I am currently playing with the garage on my storage account, but if anyone wants to run just post here and I'll hop in.

 

[Naptown25rs]

Now that its been concluded that racing ASAP is the key, I think a full on BRZ/FR-S/GT 86 spec series would be a good way to kick things off...

 

[BrandonW77]

Now that its been concluded that racing ASAP is the key, I think a full on BRZ/FR-S/GT 86 spec series would be a good way to kick things off...

That's on my short list, the other two are the '69 Stingray on SH and the F40 on SS.

I'm in the lounge playing around if anyone wants to test any of the above.

 

[Naptown25rs]

That's on my short list, the other two are the '69 Stingray on SH and the F40 on SS.

I'm in the lounge playing around if anyone wants to test any of the above.

Didn't we do the Stingray before with less that great results? Meh...

I might stop in after the Chili Bowl is over.

 

[carracerptp]

Now that its been concluded that racing ASAP is the key, I think a full on BRZ/FR-S/GT 86 spec series would be a good way to kick things off...

+1.
Great car, great for close racing, will bring people in.

That's on my short list, the other two are the '69 Stingray on SH and the F40 on SS.

I'm in the lounge playing around if anyone wants to test any of the above.

F40 - will scare people off and it's not a good "door to door" racing car.
69 Stingray - Same thing.

 

[Johnnypenso]

That's on my short list, the other two are the '69 Stingray on SH and the F40 on SS.

I'm in the lounge playing around if anyone wants to test any of the above.

F40 - will scare people off and it's not a good "door to door" racing car.
69 Stingray - Same thing.

This is also part of the reason I suggested not sticking with a car for a month....just sayin'...

 

[BrandonW77]

On the contrary, I believe they may have just illustrated why we might need to stick with a single car for a longer period of time: while there may be 1000+ not all of them are worthy of racing for a series. Would you want to spend two weeks racing a Kubelwagen, a MOVE or a Subaru 360? I've been looking through the premium cars, some of them are very uninspiring and I wouldn't want to spend any time racing them. Same can be said for a lot of the standard cars. Doing only twelve cars in a year does seem a little low but I don't think we should try to feature every car in the game either

I think changing every two weeks would be a little much. The maximum amount you'd race it would be 4 times. If you can only race on Saturday's you only get to race it twice, and if you miss a week you only race it once. Three weeks seems about right, four is a little long but hopefully not too excessive. I would think the idea of alternating between Capps and Alfas for the fourth week would be popular since several people mentioned those cars and it would keep us from getting too bored with the featured car.

 

[Johnnypenso]

On the contrary, I believe they may have just illustrated why we might need to stick with a single car for a longer period of time: while there may be 1000+ not all of them are worthy of racing for a series. Would you want to spend two weeks racing a Kubelwagen, a MOVE or a Subaru 360? I've been looking through the premium cars, some of them are very uninspiring and I wouldn't want to spend any time racing them. Same can be said for a lot of the standard cars. Doing only twelve cars in a year does seem a little low but I don't think we should try to feature every car in the game either

I think changing every two weeks would be a little much. The maximum amount you'd race it would be 4 times. If you can only race on Saturday's you only get to race it twice, and if you miss a week you only race it once. Three weeks seems about right, four is a little long but hopefully not too excessive. I would think the idea of alternating between Capps and Alfas for the fourth week would be popular since several people mentioned those cars and it would keep us from getting too bored with the featured car.

I guess if the option is 1 car per month or using the Kubelwagen, Move and Subaru 360....then 1 car per month wins...cause I'm sure there's no way we could put our heads together and come up with better cars than that...lol..

 

[BrandonW77]

The point is that a lot of the cars on the game are rubbish and if we switch them up too often we might find ourselves without good cars to choose from. I'm just basing this off your "1000+ cars in the game" comment......once you eliminate all the different versions of Miata's and Skylines, remove all the Kubelwagen and Move type cars that have no business on a race track, discard the majority of FF cars as they are generally terrible to race, then you're left with a much smaller number than 1000. So then you have cars like the '69 Stingray and F40 which are both fun to drive but people aren't interested in racing. Suddenly the number of possible cars that will actually attract people to race with us has gotten rather small.

The general consensus is that we need more racing and a more constant format, I've not heard many other people say we need a larger variety of cars. I too would rather spend more time racing and less time testing cars to find something for us to drive. Besides, most of the people that race with us or used to race with us are now racing with DeadNuts so they get all the car variety they want over there. 💡

EDIT: To be clear, at this point I'm willing to do just about anything if it will get people back in our lounge. If changing cars every two weeks is the plan that gets us there then I'll give it a shot. But I know when I tried a plan very similar to that it didn't turn out well. I had several people tell me they had no desire to constantly be searching for and prepping new cars and this lead them to stop participating. Sticking with one car for a month may be a little too long but at least it's constant, stable and makes it easy for people to just show up at the scheduled times and race.

Perhaps a poll is in order.

 

[Mudd]

Not that I'm super active in here, but I like the sound of the one month per car idea. Many online racers are only attracted to certain cars, for instance, when I see the OP headline: "This month, '69 Stingray" I'm gonna be all over it. Switching it each month is a good way to get people attracted, I think.

 

[dsgerbc]

As of last week I've already exhausted my wall-of-text-reading quota for this month. So when do we race and what?

 

[BrandonW77]

Probably the Sci-yo-baru (86GT, FR-S, BRZ) at the beginning of March. We can do some test races between now and then, quick testing yesterday showed that all three cars turn the same lap times so it should be fine to allow all three of them to compete together.

To make things as easy to access as possible I will likely limit the power to stock power + oil change so people don't have to worry about breaking the car in. Buy it, change the oil and bring it out to race. It's only going to be a few HP that we're missing, shouldn't have any significant effect on driving the car but should make it easier for people to show up and race. 👍

 

[dsgerbc]

quick testing yesterday showed that all three cars turn the same lap times so it should be fine to allow all three of them to compete together.

Lol, why wouldn't they, they are exactly the same sans skin. The only people I saw making claims that those are somehow different -- DS3 users.
Tires? CM?CS? Going SH would give'em too much grip, on the other hand on C tires, IIRC, these cars bottom-out in the rear on bumps and spin. So SH would make track choice easier.

 

[BrandonW77]

Lol, why wouldn't they, they are exactly the same sans skin. The only people I saw making claims that those are somehow different -- DS3 users.
Tires? CM?CS? Going SH would give'em too much grip, on the other hand on C tires, IIRC, these cars bottom-out in the rear on bumps and spin. So SH would make track choice easier.

Because this is PD we're talking about! The FRS and BRZ do feel slightly different to drive but no difference in lap times.

I think CS are going to be the tires of choice. They are slightly too grippy with CS but the back end can still get loose, on CM the back end is about the same but the front starts to push which I find less desirable. So I think CS will provide the best compromise and produce the best door-to-door racing. I'll just try to stay away from tracks with bumps.

(that wall of text might have been too big. )

 

[VBR]

Do shuffle races even work? I've done maybe 5 or 6 of them in my "career" and every time I got stuck with some terrible car that didn't even come close to matching the other cars in the field so I've never attempted them again. Maybe they're better now but I wouldn't even know how to setup a room for shuffle racing.

Do Shuffle races work? That all depends on what you define as working! For instance, will they give even cars to the whole field? Sometimes, but only if the Shuffle Ratio is set to 0, & you'll always get a 'bogey car' that's not competetive. Anyway, even if all the cars are even, all the drivers won't be, so does it really matter?

I am a huge Shuffle fan, & I'll tell you why. Sometimes I will get a slower car, & then a slower guy will get a faster car, & then I end up being able to race people who I never would have otherwise. Some of the best races I've ever had have been in Shuffle rooms, & that's pretty much all I've been doing for the last year.

If you Shuffle race to win, you'll be disappointed some of the time. But if you Shuffle race for laughs, forget about winning & focus on having some random fun, then it's absolutely brilliant! Set the Ratio to 0, & have some laid back fun!

 

[dsgerbc]

Set the Ratio to 0, & have some laid back fun!

Thanks for your reply. I always felt sad that the clubs you ran were on BST time...

Do you have recent experience with shuffle ratios other than zero? I thought that the point of higher shuffle ratio was to even out racing after a few runs, so that faster driver would be getting slower cars. Now, in-game, 'slower cars' are likely to be defined by some formula, perhaps even straight PP level. Given how screwed up it is generally, does higher shuffle ratio do anything these days to make racing closer?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Do Shuffle races work? That all depends on what you define as working! For instance, will they give even cars to the whole field? Sometimes, but only if the Shuffle Ratio is set to 0, & you'll always get a 'bogey car' that's not competetive. Anyway, even if all the cars are even, all the drivers won't be, so does it really matter?

I am a huge Shuffle fan, & I'll tell you why. Sometimes I will get a slower car, & then a slower guy will get a faster car, & then I end up being able to race people who I never would have otherwise. Some of the best races I've ever had have been in Shuffle rooms, & that's pretty much all I've been doing for the last year.

If you Shuffle race to win, you'll be disappointed some of the time. But if you Shuffle race for laughs, forget about winning & focus on having some random fun, then it's absolutely brilliant! Set the Ratio to 0, & have some laid back fun!

Look what the cat dragged in...hello VBR...

[post=4888688]

VBR's Good Racecraft Guide​

[/post]

^^shameless plug for you^^​

Even with the ratio at zero, and most of the rooms I have raced in have it set really low or on zero, you can still get a field of cars that are 3-4 seconds apart top to bottom. Many cars just can't compete although they are at the same PP level. As VBR says, if you are racing to win, or I'd add, to try and be competitive with the whole field, you can forget it most of the time. Your best bet is to hope there are a couple of guys around you whose skill level combined with their car's performance allows you to have a good dice for a few laps.

 

[BrandonW77]

I went to see Top Gun in IMAX 3D tonight. It's very cool, the airborne scenes were an adrenaline rush. Check it out if you have a chance, I think it's only out this week though.

 

[BrandonW77]

Not that I'm super active in here, but I like the sound of the one month per car idea. Many online racers are only attracted to certain cars, for instance, when I see the OP headline: "This month, '69 Stingray" I'm gonna be all over it. Switching it each month is a good way to get people attracted, I think.

Thanks Mudd, that's exactly the kind of input I needed. We haven't seen you around in quite a while so if this format is something that you and others would be interested in then I'm ready to give it a shot. It doesn't have to be the greatest thing on GTP or have the most members, but if we can get 7-10 people to show up on a regular basis I'd be quite happy. 👍

So no objections to the Toyscibaru cars then (FRS, BRZ, GT86)? They are fun to drive, if a little slow, and look nice. Being able to have three different looking front/rear ends will be a nice little bonus, spec racing with a bit of visual variety. I think on CS tires the racing will be pretty good and I'm sure I can find 4 tracks that are nice fits. I plan on being online tonight to test them out and find some good tracks.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

I am exhausted, but as I'll have to be up for a call late tonite I'll likely be loafing round anyhow. Should be able to stop in for a bit.

I believe there may be an update to download this evening as well.