Our silence on one of the most persecuted people in the world

[KSaiyu]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...he-worlds-most-persecuted-people-9630774.html

With the latest anti-Christian atrocity by Islamists, one must start to wonder why the world is so silent on this ongoing persecution where "the number of Christians who have died for their faith has doubled in recent years, according to the Open Doors charity..."

Is the silence because of a desire for secularism? Is secularism even a realistic goal for many countries anymore?

 

[CodeRedR51]

This is why religion is bad, mmmmmkay?

 

[Beeblebrox237]

The most persecuted group of people in the world are the people on internet forums who think everyone is out to get them.

 

[KSaiyu]

Stay classy lads 👍

 

[squadops]

This is why religion is bad, mmmmmkay?

That doesn't make sense, blaming the victims with a blanket statement like that. Civil rights are usually defined by race, color, or national origin, with age, sex, and religion sometimes added. Now I'll agree aging is bad and should be outlawed, if someone chooses to grow old they should be stoned to death But you know where I'm going with this...

one must start to wonder why the world is so silent on this ongoing persecution...

Is the silence because of a desire for secularism? Is secularism even a realistic goal for many countries anymore?

It could be out of embarrassment. I don't think there is a strong desire for secularism around the world but I do think freedom to choose yes or no to religion, and which one is important to many. Secular government yes, separation of church and state yes, equality yes, fear of the unknown often breeds bigotry.

If religion disappears in society it will be slow and not forced, the only ones that would openly and sincerely accept a banishment would be a percentage of atheists. Something like 85% of the world population is affiliated with a religion.

 

[CodeRedR51]

That doesn't make sense, blaming the victims with a blanket statement like that.

The victims were killed because they were not of the religion that the attackers associated with. Religion vs Religion is what this was all about.

I stand by my original post.

 

[squadops]

Well most all humans are sexual(maybe around that same 85%), what happens when one sexual orientation starts killing another?

 

[CodeRedR51]

Well most all humans are sexual(maybe around that same 85%), what happens when one sexual orientation starts killing another?

Now you're the one not making sense.

 

[Dennisch]

Well most all humans are sexual(maybe around that same 85%), what happens when one sexual orientation starts killing another?

I've just checked my Kama Sutra and nowhere does it state that I should kill someone. People may die because of the book but they most likely die with a smile on their face.

Religion is a problem for the world, especially when it's used to brainwash people. Which happens a lot.

 

[Johnnypenso]

It's a common assumption or at least it's often implied, that in the absence of religion, everything would have been relatively the same, only better. Fact is, all the greatest atrocities ever committed including those by Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, WW1, had nothing to do with religion, so man is perfectly capable of killing literally hundreds of millions of people simply out of greed, ambition, hate and other base human emotions. It could also easily be argued that any of the great atrocities committed in the name of religion, including the current lunatics, ISIS, El Queda, Taliban etc. are really nothing more than hate fueled desires for power and geographical domination that might have occurred anyway, just on some other basis.

 

[SagarisGTB]

Nobody is saying that a world without religion would be a world without atrocities. It would just be a world with one less available "justification" for violence.

 

[KSaiyu]

What bothers me most is the silence. As has been pointed out, people will always find justification. But that doesn't excuse or explain the under reporting of an international persecution. Squadops probably got it in one - we seem ashamed of admitting Christians can be the targets. Why is this the case

 

[Exorcet]

we seem ashamed of admitting Christians can be the targets. Why is this the case

Rather than embarrassment it could be a matter of size. As the world's largest religion, christianity might see itself as just normal. It's not so much christians being killed, as much as it's "regular" people.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Polyphony Digital employees, believers in the God thread, the Jews, people who's surname is fartknocker.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Nobody is saying that a world without religion would be a world without atrocities. It would just be a world with one less available "justification" for violence.

But again, the implication is that without that "justification" the violence would not otherwise have occurred. I submit that it is not religion at all that is the justification, that such violence and carnage is borne of the greed of men, the lust for power and domination, and that religion was a justification of convenience and not the root cause. Of course this cannot be proven definitively, but there are more than enough examples of atrocities committed by men to know that a religious justification is not need for mass murder or mass torture.

 

[SagarisGTB]

But again, the implication is that without that "justification" the violence would not otherwise have occurred. I submit that it is not religion at all that is the justification, that such violence and carnage is borne of the greed of men, the lust for power and domination, and that religion was a justification of convenience and not the root cause. Of course this cannot be proven definitively, but there are more than enough examples of atrocities committed by men to know that a religious justification is not need for mass murder or mass torture.

Of course it's not. I'm not saying anything to the contrary. There would still be violent disputes over land, money, property and power, and perhaps some of the atrocities committed under the pretense of religion would still have occurred.

At the same time however, there wouldn't be vigilante killings of apostates or terrorist attacks in response to a purported blasphemy. Without these imaginary idols, would it not become more difficult to persuade young non-malevolent people into committing heinous suicide attacks predicated on the promise of a pleasant afterlife?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Of course it's not. I'm not saying anything to the contrary. There would still be violent disputes over land, money, property and power, and perhaps some of the atrocities committed under the pretense of religion would still have occurred.

At the same time however, there wouldn't be vigilante killings of apostates or terrorist attacks in response to a purported blasphemy. Without these imaginary idols, would it not become more difficult to persuade young non-malevolent people into committing heinous suicide attacks predicated on the promise of a pleasant afterlife?

And I'd respond the same. You have no idea what would have taken the place of organized religion in it's absence. The reason it is so pervasive is that people for millenia have wanted to believe in a higher power, and the promise of a happy and carefree after life, better than the one they were living, is a strong lure. That desire does not simply disappear because religion disappears, it is still there and the void must be filled. There is no way of knowing whether something inherently more evil would have taken it's place with far more reaching and negative consequences.

 

[Imari]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...he-worlds-most-persecuted-people-9630774.html

With the latest anti-Christian atrocity by Islamists, one must start to wonder why the world is so silent on this ongoing persecution where "the number of Christians who have died for their faith has doubled in recent years, according to the Open Doors charity..."

Is the silence because of a desire for secularism? Is secularism even a realistic goal for many countries anymore?

Christians are the world's largest religious group. All other things being equal, you'd expect them to have the highest absolute number of persecution events. 0.01% of 2 billion is a lot more people than 0.01% of 20 thousand.

I'd be interested to see if Christians are persecuted disproportionately compared to their numbers. Realistically, I'd expect big variation depending on geography.

I don't think the information provided so far gives enough to have an informed discussion about the matter, there is far too much that is unknown. Comparable numbers for the other major religions would be a good start.

 

[eran0004]

It's a common assumption or at least it's often implied, that in the absence of religion, everything would have been relatively the same, only better. Fact is, all the greatest atrocities ever committed including those by Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, WW1, had nothing to do with religion, so man is perfectly capable of killing literally hundreds of millions of people simply out of greed, ambition, hate and other base human emotions. It could also easily be argued that any of the great atrocities committed in the name of religion, including the current lunatics, ISIS, El Queda, Taliban etc. are really nothing more than hate fueled desires for power and geographical domination that might have occurred anyway, just on some other basis.

Basically, beware of anything that ends with -ism. They have a tendency to grow more important than reason.

Here's a poem that I think describes it pretty well. It was written by Tage Danielsson and is originally in Swedish (Råd till ett nyfött barn angående i vilken ordning det bör skaffa sig sina övertygelser).

Advice to an infant concerning the order by which it should aquire its beliefs

Before becoming capitalist,
communist, monetarist,
anarchist, marxist, fascist,
terrorist, imperialist,
socialist, syndicalist
or even folkpartist*,
you must, my little one -
as soon as you can run
or crawl on your knees -
join the world party for peace
that is above all other cause.
All the -isms where we've paused
comes in second place, not first.
Peace must slake the thirst.
If it doesn't, my friend,
it will also be the end.


(* Folkpartiet, or the people's party, is a Swedish political party that used to have a reputation of being rather dull and boring, having no particular opinion or ideology. So in the context of communism, anarchism etc. it's a very harmless little -ism.)

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Comparable numbers for the other major religions would be a good start.

I think that part of the oversight of the issue is that while Christians might be the most persecuted people in the world, they're also among the most free people in the world depending on the region of the world that you're talking about. And so I don't think that you can reasonably say that "Christians are the most persecuted people in the world", because I feel that that statement is misleading. The cynic in me wonders if it is not intentionally so, since every Christian that I know enjoys more opportunity than any other demographic in my country, and none of them have any fear of persecution. I would even go so far as to suggest that, if there is any persecution here - against homosexuals in partucular - it's mostly being carried out by the Christians.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I think that part of the oversight of the issue is that while Christians might be the most persecuted people in the world, they're also among the most free people in the world depending on the region of the world that you're talking about. And so I don't think that you can reasonably say that "Christians are the most persecuted people in the world", because I feel that that statement is misleading. The cynic in me wonders if it is not intentionally so, since every Christian that I know enjoys more opportunity than any other demographic in my country, and none of them have any fear of persecution. I would even go so far as to suggest that, if there is any persecution here - against homosexuals in partucular - it's mostly being carried out by the Christians.

If the Christians aren't currently the most persecuted people in the world, then who is?

And I'm sorry, but I find the idea of mentioning or comparing the persecution of Christians worldwide, where they are being killed by the hundreds and thousands, turned into refugees, their homes and places of worship destroyed, to the "plight" of homosexuals in North America, is laughable. Denying someone a pizza or a cake isn't exactly what I'd call persecution and when the area of the country trying to do so got smacked down within a week and had to rewrite the legislation or face economic disaster, I'd say the LGBT community is better off in North America, than most citizens of the world.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

If the Christians aren't currently the most persecuted people in the world, then who is?

A sect within Christianity. I don't know which one, but I reject the idea that Christians as a whole are the most persecuted simply because the standing majority of them are not persecuted at all.

 

[Johnnypenso]

A sect within Christianity. I don't know which one, but I reject the idea that Christians as a whole are the most persecuted simply because the standing majority of them are not persecuted at all.

"Most persecuted" simply means more than everyone else. It doesn't have to mean it applies to the majority. Obviously the persecution will be concentrated in the areas of the greatest unrest.

 

[jimipitbull]

If the Christians aren't currently the most persecuted people in the world, then who is?

Redheads. Scientists, politicians. Athiests, agnostics and other nonreligious types.

Christians are responsible for plenty of persecutions throughout history. Not sure why they are playing the victim card.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Redheads. Scientists, politicians. Athiests, agnostics and other nonreligious types.

Christians are responsible for plenty of persecutions throughout history. Not sure why they are playing the victim card.

The history thread is that way >>>. This discussion is about 2015.

 

[G.T.Ace]

The history thread is that way >>>. This discussion is about 2015.

And it seems like you're only talking about north america.
I don't think there's one, most persecuted group, I think it all depends on which part of the world you look at.

 

[jimipitbull]

The history thread is that way >>>. This discussion is about 2015.

Thread title and OP makes no reference to time frame. Also, the article linked mentions the 4th century, among many other periods.

 

[Johnnypenso]

And it seems like you're only talking about north america.
I don't think there's one, most persecuted group, I think it all depends on which part of the world you look at.

Yes I mentioned NA because I assumed Prisonermonkeys was from NA. Perhaps that was a mistake but he has yet to correct me. And yes there is one most persecuted group, whichever one is persecuted the most. You can narrow it down to country or region or city or continent or world if you like.

Thread title and OP makes no reference to time frame. Also, the article linked mentions the 4th century, among many other periods.

Seeing as how the focus of each article is some current persecution, I think I'm going to go with 2015. Let's ask @KSaiyu if he was talking about persecution today or in the 4th century. Any guesses as to his answer? I'll proceed as if it's current if you don't mind.

 

[DCP]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...he-worlds-most-persecuted-people-9630774.html

With the latest anti-Christian atrocity by Islamists, one must start to wonder why the world is so silent on this ongoing persecution where "the number of Christians who have died for their faith has doubled in recent years, according to the Open Doors charity..."

Is the silence because of a desire for secularism? Is secularism even a realistic goal for many countries anymore?

Here is a bible verse for this action:

Matthew 10:22
"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22"You will be hated by all because of My Name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. 23"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.…

I would recommend Matthew 24 as well. It would explain why the birth pains are intensifying in recent years.

I haven't done any research, so I'm guessing the Jews were most persecuted throughout history.

PS: muslims say they love Jesus, yet they kill people who adore Jesus.
Jesus name is used in Hollywood, or whereever in vein, yet no one kills for this, and I'm not saying anyone should.

 

[jimipitbull]

Seeing as how the focus of each article is some current persecution, I think I'm going to go with 2015. Let's ask @KSaiyu if he was talking about persecution today or in the 4th century. Any guesses as to his answer? I'll proceed as if it's current if you don't mind.

I don't suffer from persecution complex, so I don't mind. You can proceed.

Christians often persecute other christians, for reasons other than religion. That could easily make it seem like they are the most persecuted.