Our silence on one of the most persecuted people in the world

[KSaiyu]

The relative silence guys, the clues in the thread title change

 

[DCP]

Well, you guys can decide which eagle country has always aided Israel, for what ever reason.
We are in a period "according to the bible" where either Israel is judged, or a nation is judged. Sit back onto your seats and standby for "proof". I believe Israel was under judgement already last year with hamas, so time will tell.

Sorry to go off topic. I believe the jews have suffered most in persecution.
Off my head, 400 years in slavery in Egypt, total destruction in 70AD, and offcourse the holocaust.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Well, you guys can decide which eagle country has always aided Israel...

I believe the jews have suffered most in persecution...400 years in slavery in Egypt, total destruction in 70AD, and offcourse the holocaust.

Given that you think that the entire Earth is only 6,000 years old then you'll forgive me for thinking that your overall perception of time/proportion might be a little, erm...

Off my head

Ah, yes.

 

[Scaff]

Off my head, 400 years in slavery in Egypt

A slight problem with this one, not a bit of evidence for Jewish Slavery in Egypt in that period (quite a bit for slavery of other group) or for the Exodus actually exists.

A point even Jews themselves are quite ready to acknowledge.

Your dates are way out for the end of ancient Israel/Judah, they were both gone by 720 BCE.

 

[eran0004]

Question:

We have people A and people B.

People A consists of 2 billion individuals.
People B consists of 10 million individuals.

People A have most of the influence, wealth and power in the world.
People B are poor and have very little influence and power.

0.1% of people A are being persecuted (2 million)
10% of people B are being persecuted (1 million)

Is it correct to say that people A is a more persecuted people than people B?

 

[mistersafeway]

What? Christians have, at least in the US (not all US christians, before someone suggests that's what I'm saying), been claiming that they're persecuted for decades, while simultaneously making out that all atheists are immoral satanists and LGBT people are disgusting subhumans who need to be eradicated. Throw in some nonsense such as legal abortions being unfair to them due to their religious beliefs and you have a persecution complex, not "silence on persecution of christians". Christianity as a whole is one of the most oppressive groups on Earth, and their "persecution" is at least partially just reduced favouritism in western society. Oh, and christian persecution in the Middle East and similar? I hate to break it to you, but something that's been happening on and off for centuries isn't news.

 

[BobK]

A slight problem with this one, not a bit of evidence for Jewish Slavery in Egypt in that period (quite a bit for slavery of other group) or for the Exodus actually exists.

A point even Jews themselves are quite ready to acknowledge.

Actually we were given a list of 100 or so names of (purportedly) slaves in ancient Egypt, perhaps thirty of which might have sounded like they could, maybe, have been Jewish names. You didn't find that bit of evidence compelling?

 

[KSaiyu]

What? Christians have, at least in the US (not all US christians, before someone suggests that's what I'm saying), been claiming that they're persecuted for decades, while simultaneously making out that all atheists are immoral satanists and LGBT people are disgusting subhumans who need to be eradicated. Throw in some nonsense such as legal abortions being unfair to them due to their religious beliefs and you have a persecution complex, not "silence on persecution of christians". Christianity as a whole is one of the most oppressive groups on Earth, and their "persecution" is at least partially just reduced favouritism in western society. Oh, and christian persecution in the Middle East and similar? I hate to break it to you, but something that's been happening on and off for centuries isn't news.

"What? Jews/Muslims have, at least in the US (not all US Jews/Muslims, before someone suggests that's what I'm saying), been claiming that they're persecuted for decades, while simultaneously making out that all goyim/kuffar are immoral satanists and LGBT people are disgusting subhumans who need to be eradicated. Throw in some nonsense such as non-Halal being unfair to them due to their religious beliefs and you have a persecution complex, not "silence on persecution of Muslims/Jews". Islamism/Zionism as a whole is one of the most oppressive groups on Earth, and their "persecution" is at least partially just reduced favouritism in western society. Oh, and Jewish/Muslim persecution in the Middle East and similar? I hate to break it to you, but something that's been happening on and off for centuries isn't news."

 

[Imari]

"What? Jews/Muslims have, at least in the US (not all US Jews/Muslims, before someone suggests that's what I'm saying), been claiming that they're persecuted for decades, while simultaneously making out that all goyim/kuffar are immoral satanists and LGBT people are disgusting subhumans who need to be eradicated. Throw in some nonsense such as non-Halal being unfair to them due to their religious beliefs and you have a persecution complex, not "silence on persecution of Muslims/Jews". Islamism/Zionism as a whole is one of the most oppressive groups on Earth, and their "persecution" is at least partially just reduced favouritism in western society. Oh, and Jewish/Muslim persecution in the Middle East and similar? I hate to break it to you, but something that's been happening on and off for centuries isn't news."

What's your point? That Christians aren't the only ones who make a fuss about being "persecuted" when actually they're mostly just fine? I doubt you'll find many people to disagree with that.

For the third time, pull some actual numbers out and there's a discussion to be had.

 

[KSaiyu]

What's your point? That Christians aren't the only ones who make a fuss about being "persecuted" when actually they're mostly just fine? I doubt you'll find many people to disagree with that.

For the third time, pull some actual numbers out and there's a discussion to be had.

The point is that it's a terrible post.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Why is it a terrible post? Because it disagrees with your position?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Why is it a terrible post? Because it disagrees with your position?

It's a terrible post because the OP is about today, not 75 years ago, today, April 2015. Comparing the treatment of gays, atheists and abortionists at the hands of Christians in the U.S. to the stabbing, shooting and beheading of hundreds, injuries to hundreds more, and the displacement of thousands or tens of thousand of people is a bad post. If the roles were reversed and gays were being slaughtered by the hundreds and driven from their homes like Christians are and someone put up a post about how Christians are being attacked in the U.S. for exercising their constitutional rights to religious freedom, you and dozens of others around here would attack that poster mercilessly.

 

[KSaiyu]

It's a terrible post because the OP is about today, not 75 years ago, today, April 2015. Comparing the treatment of gays, atheists and abortionists at the hands of Christians in the U.S. to the stabbing, shooting and beheading of hundreds, injuries to hundreds more, and the displacement of thousands or tens of thousand of people is a bad post. If the roles were reversed and gays were being slaughtered by the hundreds and driven from their homes like Christians are and someone put up a post about how Christians are being attacked in the U.S. for exercising their constitutional rights to religious freedom, you and dozens of others around here would attack that poster mercilessly.

Not to mention it's reductive, even if that was the topic being debated. Can you imagine if I posted something similar should I feel the same (this I'd go so far as saying is bigotry) in the Islam thread, or a Jewish thread?

OT but I envy Canada. It seems such a laid back country, similar to my current dream destination Iceland.

 

[Imari]

If the roles were reversed and gays were being slaughtered by the hundreds and driven from their homes like Christians are and someone put up a post about how Christians are being attacked in the U.S. for exercising their constitutional rights to religious freedom, you and dozens of others around here would attack that poster mercilessly.

And if there were two billion gays, then perhaps there would be hundreds of them being slaughtered and driven from their homes.

Last I checked, gays were sitting around 1-2% of the population. That means at best 140 million gays worldwide, not even on the same order of magnitude as Christians. So to be the same, gays would have to be being killed by the tens and driven from their homes. Which on a worldwide scale they almost certainly are. A few of the African countries probably take care of that all by themselves.

Can I stress again the importance of actual data when talking about this stuff. It's not enough just to wave big numbers around, when those numbers are part of a very large population.

Let's use some basic statistics and provide the data and logic used to all, and not get caught up in the F1jocker12 style of wailing and gnashing our teeth and crying "Won't someone think of the children?" That's not how you make an argument, that's how politicians misdirect from having an actual conversation about facts.

 

[mistersafeway]

Christians in general are far from one of the most persecuted groups on Earth, and everybody should be aware that minority religions are treated badly in certain countries, so I struggle to understand objections to my post. If you're talking about christians in general my instant response is derisive laughter, in areas where they're minorities "wow, really!? Did you know the sky is often blue?". Religions cause hatred towards each other, nothing new unfortunately.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Christians in general are far from one of the most persecuted groups on Earth, and everybody should be aware that minority religions are treated badly in certain countries, so I struggle to understand objections to my post. If you're talking about christians in general my instant response is derisive laughter, in areas where they're minorities "wow, really!? Did you know the sky is often blue?". Religions cause hatred towards each other, nothing new unfortunately.

It's nice you can be so cavalier about hundreds of people being slaughtered worldwide. I wonder if your attitude would be so flip if it were a group you were actually concerned about.

And if there were two billion gays, then perhaps there would be hundreds of them being slaughtered and driven from their homes.

Last I checked, gays were sitting around 1-2% of the population. That means at best 140 million gays worldwide, not even on the same order of magnitude as Christians. So to be the same, gays would have to be being killed by the tens and driven from their homes. Which on a worldwide scale they almost certainly are. A few of the African countries probably take care of that all by themselves.

Can I stress again the importance of actual data when talking about this stuff. It's not enough just to wave big numbers around, when those numbers are part of a very large population.

Let's use some basic statistics and provide the data and logic used to all, and not get caught up in the F1jocker12 style of wailing and gnashing our teeth and crying "Won't someone think of the children?" That's not how you make an argument, that's how politicians misdirect from having an actual conversation about facts.

Yes actual data would be nice, if someone finds some I'm sure they'll post it. Somehow though with hundreds of people being slaughtered, thousands displaced and on the run, it doesn't give me much comfort to know that statistically it's probably in line with other groups.

Not to mention it's reductive, even if that was the topic being debated. Can you imagine if I posted something similar should I feel the same (this I'd go so far as saying is bigotry) in the Islam thread, or a Jewish thread?

OT but I envy Canada. It seems such a laid back country, similar to my current dream destination Iceland.

I cannot deny it is a wonderful place to live. We have our issues, mainly left wing lunatics spending us into the poor house, but all in all it's a pretty great place to be.

 

[mistersafeway]

I wonder if your attitude would be so flip if it were a group you were actually concerned about.

Well, you referred to christians as people (a view I share) so, shockingly, I do care. I just don't see how it's any different to any religious minority in whatever country being persecuted. If somebody would care to explain how it is, well, my tone likely won't change, but my viewpoint may. So far I've not seen such a distinction.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Well, you referred to christians as people (a view I share) so, shockingly, I do care. I just don't see how it's any different to any religious minority in whatever country being persecuted. If somebody would care to explain how it is, well, my tone likely won't change, but my viewpoint may. So far I've not seen such a distinction.

You've already stated that Christians are "far from one of the most persecuted groups on Earth", so I shouldn't need to point anything out to you as it seems you've done the research already. I'd concede that Muslims killing other Muslims is probably the greatest persecution on Earth at the moment, so can you please share with us the other groups that are being targeted as Christians seem to be in certain parts of the world, keeping in mind of course that according to you, the Christians are far behind in persecution?

 

[Imari]

It's nice you can be so cavalier about hundreds of people being slaughtered worldwide. I wonder if your attitude would be so flip if it were a group you were actually concerned about.

The thread brought it up as though this were something special. It's not.

People get killed all the time for dumb reasons. Religious intolerance is just another one of a long list. It'd be nice if it would go away, but I'm not holding my breath.

Yes actual data would be nice, if someone finds some I'm sure they'll post it. Somehow though with hundreds of people being slaughtered, thousands displaced and on the run, it doesn't give me much comfort to know that statistically it's probably in line with other groups.

It's not supposed to give you comfort. It's supposed to make you pull your head in and realise that everyone is more or less in the same boat.

The point is why make a fuss about Christians in particular if this happens to everybody?

I dunno, if it was me then I'd make a thread about why religious persecution in general isn't more widely publicised. But then again, it kind of is. Everyone is aware that it happens, and when something big goes down it's in the news. It's just that news of one bunch of religious fanatics killing another bunch of religious people is barely newsworthy most of the time.

Let's put all this into perspective. We're all on a car forum, we all like cars. Road deaths in Australia are somewhat over a thousand people a year, in a country with ~20 million people. You're talking about hundreds of Christians killed of a population of ~2 billion. I am therefore roughly a thousand times more likely to die in a car crash than a Christian is likely to be killed.

Road safety is a thing, but we generally don't make a big fuss about it outside a few times a year that are particularly deadly. Do you start to see how something a thousand times less deadly than road safety doesn't really make it onto most people's radar? And this is using data from a country that arguably has pretty safe roads, god forbid I use India or something.

Now, as I have advocated several times, if someone wants to provide data so that we could segregate the parts of the world that have particularly high rates of persecution of Christians, maybe we could get somewhere. But talking about persecution of Christians on the worldwide scale is pointless, the rates appear to be so low as to be trivial. You're way, way, way more likely to be killed by being struck by lightning, and nobody is complaining about the under-reporting of lightning strike victims.

 

[JMoney]

Almost every post in this thread has been off-topic. Obviously Christians aren't the most persecuted group in the world (I would argue that the Jews are the most persecuted, homosexuals probably second, and Christians or Muslims possibly third), but that's not the point- the point is that nobody seems to care about their persecution- there has been relatively little support for Christians in danger. Secularism is certainly to blame for this. Many people nowadays look at Christians being killed by Muslims and think, "Religious people killing another religion, so religion must be bad." They completely ignore the fact that anyone is dying.

If a gay couple were denied service at a Chick-fil-A in Georgia, it would be all over the news- there would be a massive backlash against CFA. Protests would occur. Obama would probably have something to say about it. News headlines would appear for weeks about the event.

If a Christian family were killed in Kenya (which actually happened and is still happening), a story may appear once or twice on each of the mainstream news stations. The headline will read, "[Death Toll] people killed in Kenya", and they'll mention one time that it was because they were Christian. Fox will probably do several stories on it, as they always have. MSNBC will completely ignore it, except MAYBE Joe Scarborough. There won't be an outcry.

The thing is Americans are more interested in March Madness than a war on the other side of the world. And that's why there is such little coverage. Ron Burgundy got it right: news outlets cover what people want to hear, not what they need to hear.

 

[Danoff]

Almost every post in this thread has been off-topic. Obviously Christians aren't the most persecuted group in the world (I would argue that the Jews are the most persecuted, homosexuals probably second, and Christians or Muslims possibly third), but that's not the point- the point is that nobody seems to care about their persecution- there has been relatively little support for Christians in danger. Secularism is certainly to blame for this. Many people nowadays look at Christians being killed by Muslims and think, "Religious people killing another religion, so religion must be bad." They completely ignore the fact that anyone is dying.

If a gay couple were denied service at a Chick-fil-A in Georgia, it would be all over the news- there would be a massive backlash against CFA. Protests would occur. Obama would probably have something to say about it. News headlines would appear for weeks about the event.

If a Christian family were killed in Kenya (which actually happened and is still happening), a story may appear once or twice on each of the mainstream news stations. The headline will read, "[Death Toll] people killed in Kenya", and they'll mention one time that it was because they were Christian. Fox will probably do several stories on it, as they always have. MSNBC will completely ignore it, except MAYBE Joe Scarborough. There won't be an outcry.

The thing is Americans are more interested in March Madness than a war on the other side of the world. And that's why there is such little coverage. Ron Burgundy got it right: news outlets cover what people want to hear, not what they need to hear.

...that's because they're not killed for being Christian. They're killed for being NOT something else... and tons of people fall into that category.

 

[JMoney]

...that's because they're not killed for being Christian. They're killed for being NOT something else... and tons of people fall into that category.

That may be true- the same could be said about a gay couple not being straight, could it not? Yet less media attention is given to Christians.

 

[KSaiyu]

It's the lack of a pressure group. Which says something for society that we have to be pressurised into caring. Perhaps when Christians become the minority religion such a group will emerge.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

The idea that Christians aren't defended by anyone is laughable. Ever heard of the Westboro Baptist Church, for instance? Or Pat Robertson? What about the Moral Majority and its founder, Jerry Falwell?

 

[Scaff]

Do your seriously believe that Christians lack pressure groups?

The lobbying power they have, along with the power and influence of the Vatican, not to mention the seats in the Lord's here in the UK.

Christians do not lack pressure groups at all.

 

[KSaiyu]

Pressure groups adept at playing the victim card (e.g. the ADL, NAACP)

 

[squadops]

WBC? No

They do not represent or stand up for persecuted Christians anywhere. To be honest I believe the only people who know about, care about, and bring up this group, are small atheist circles on the web.

 

[JMoney]

The Westboro Baptist Church is to Christians as Al-Qaeda is to Muslims. In other words, they have nothing to do with the true beliefs of Christianity or Islam, and they give their religion a bad name.

 

[Danoff]

That may be true- the same could be said about a gay couple not being straight, could it not? Yet less media attention is given to Christians.

No. You missed my point completely. There are 100 different major religions out there, and in some cases people belonging to 1 of them will kill anyone from the other 99. That means that most people are on the kill radar for these people. There are 3 options for sexuality: gay, straight, and bi (and then there's really kinky stuff but let's not go there). If 1 of those groups decides to kill people from a different 1 of those groups, it's still just 1 group being attacked. It's an attack on a specific group rather than a blanket attack on "anyone who isn't me". It's quite different.

 

[Scaff]

Pressure groups adept at playing the victim card (e.g. the ADL, NAACP)

Goalposts.........................................................Moved


Its also laughable, given that while it is certainly true that through certain parts of the world Christians are most certainly being persecuted and killed (as are many groups), to claim that Christians don't also play the victim card is simply not accurate.

Fox News in the US is as mainstream an outlet for Christian pressure groups as you could get, they have regularly played the victim card in their repeated (and inane) War on Christianity and War on Christmas pieces.

Christian Pressure Groups exist? Check and they are powerful, well connected, wealthy and have access above almost any other group (26 seats in the House of Lords are automatically given to Christian Bishops - that's a degree of power and control that should raise questions).

Christian Pressure Groups play the Victim Card? Check. The wide variety of Christian Groups in the US who are citing the War on Christianity and the War on Christmas are enough to illustrate this.