Our silence on one of the most persecuted people in the world

[JMoney]

No. You missed my point completely. There are 100 different major religions out there, and in some cases people belonging to 1 of them will kill anyone from the other 99. That means that most people are on the kill radar for these people. There are 3 options for sexuality: gay, straight, and bi (and then there's really kinky stuff but let's not go there). If 1 of those groups decides to kill people from a different 1 of those groups, it's still just 1 group being attacked. It's an attack on a specific group rather than a blanket attack on "anyone who isn't me". It's quite different.

Yeah, but why does that matter? Anyone intolerant of gays is going to be intolerant of anything else that isn't straight. Any jihadist is going to be hostile toward non-Muslims. Jihadists may be killing them because they are Christians or because they aren't Muslims, but there's no real difference- they're still killing innocents. That's why it deserved media attention.

 

[Danoff]

Yeah, but why does that matter? Anyone intolerant of gays is going to be intolerant of anything else that isn't straight. Any jihadist is going to be hostile toward non-Muslims. Jihadists may be killing them because they are Christians or because they aren't Muslims, but there's no real difference- they're still killing innocents. That's why it deserved media attention.

The problem is, nobody is going to report it as Christian persecution if someone gets killed for being non-muslim. Because they'd have been killed just the same if they were atheist or jewish. It gets reported as being killed for being gay, because being a member of that group is the reason for getting killed.

See the difference?

 

[KSaiyu]

Goalposts.........................................................Moved


Its also laughable, given that while it is certainly true that through certain parts of the world Christians are most certainly being persecuted and killed (as are many groups), to claim that Christians don't also play the victim card is simply not accurate.

Fox News in the US is as mainstream a Christian pressure group as you could get, they have regularly played the victim card in their repeated (and inane) War on Christianity and War on Christmas pieces.

Christian Pressure Groups exist? Check and they are powerful, well connected, wealthy and have access above almost any other group (26 seats in the House of Lords are automatically given to Christian Bishops - that's a degree of power and control that should raise questions).

Christian Pressure Groups play the Victim Card? Check. The wide variety of Christian Groups in the US who are citing the War on Christianity and the War on Christmas are enough to illustrate this.

I wouldn't say the goalposts have been moved. Fact is we don't hear about it nearly as much as other religions/groups. I'm asking why and am being repeatedly shut down with "they aren't the most persecuted", or "They're a majority, ergo they will have more persecutions". Here is a group that is persecuted from Malaysia to Sudan and which has its traditions constantly mocked and challenged in the West. What gives us the right to pressure one institution to change their rituals and beliefs, yet cast a blind eye of other institutions?

Fox News hardly has influence over here. I'd also like to ask why those pieces are inane (I've never seen them)

 

[Scaff]

I wouldn't say the goalposts have been moved.

First you said....

"It's the lack of a pressure group. Which says something for society that we have to be pressurised into caring. Perhaps when Christians become the minority religion such a group will emerge."

....when it was then pointed out that actually rather large number of them exist and they have a significant amount of power and influence you changed it to.....

"Pressure groups adept at playing the victim card (e.g. the ADL, NAACP)"

......that's moving the goalposts in a huge manner. You went from Christians lacking 'a pressure group' (i.e. not a single one exists) to 'Pressure groups adept at playing the victim card'.

It couldn't be a better example of the goal posts being moved.

Fact is we don't hear about it nearly as much as other religions/groups.

You mean you don't, and that I suspect is the key here.

I'm asking why and am being repeatedly shut down with "they aren't the most persecuted", or "They're a majority, ergo they will have more persecutions".

Because both are valid points! Or do you expect your statements to always go unchallenged?

Here is a group that is persecuted from Malaysia to Sudan and which has its traditions constantly mocked and challenged in the West. What gives us the right to pressure one institution to change their rituals and beliefs, yet cast a blind eye of other institutions?

I don't and nor do most here.

Take a look at the 'do you believe in god' thread, pretty much every faith on the planet has been discussed and challenged, yes you will see more in regard to Christianity, but as a US based website and Christianity being the largest religion on the planet that how a statistical breakdown is going to fall.

Anyway I know that in regard to myself and the vast majority of atheists here we have only taken issue with Christianity when it impacts on the rights of others, something that has also been done with every other faith that has been discussed.

Fox News hardly has influence over here. I'd also like to ask why those pieces are inane (I've never seen them)

Those goal posts again, do they ever stop shifting. I thought we were discussing this on a global basis, you did after all say "from Malaysia to Sudan". How come you allow yourself a global span and yet close it down when others do the same?

They are inane because conflating equal rights for faiths other than Christianity and also for those without faith is not a 'war on Christianity' yet that is exactly how they portray it.

Now closer to home, please explain to me how the 26 CoE peers in the house of Lords doesn't represent a Christian Pressure group and a clear bias in favour of one faith?

 

[jtv90069]

Why don't we hear more of it? In Australia most News services report on things happening in Australia(or concerning Australians), not North Korea, Sudan, Pakistan etc. If I watched SBS world news regularly I would hear more about the world, outside of the occasional thing in the US or England. I hazard a guess it's the same for many places around the world as well.

 

[JMoney]

The problem is, nobody is going to report it as Christian persecution if someone gets killed for being non-muslim. Because they'd have been killed just the same if they were atheist or jewish. It gets reported as being killed for being gay, because being a member of that group is the reason for getting killed.

See the difference?

No. Jihadists kill Christians and other non-Muslims because they aren't Muslim, and gays are persecuted alongside bisexuals and transgenders because they aren't straight. Because the media is generally controlled by secularist progressives, the reports are titled, "Jihadists kill civilians" and "Gay couple denied service".

 

[Danoff]

No. Jihadists kill Christians and other non-Muslims because they aren't Muslim, and gays are persecuted alongside bisexuals and transgenders because they aren't straight. Because the media is generally controlled by secularist progressives, the reports are titled, "Jihadists kill civilians" and "Gay couple denied service".

Ok. Have fun with that.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

the media is generally controlled by secularist progressives

Like Rupert Murdoch?

I love it when people blame the "liberal media" as if there is some vast, unspoken conspiracy within the collective media to knowingly and deliberately misrepresent news and current affairs to do something that is never actually detailed, but is definitely happening.

Can anybody actually name a media baron who controls a privately-owned empire, openly promotes a progressive agenda, and who has avoided the ire of the Murdochs of the world,

 

[JMoney]

Like Rupert Murdoch?

I love it when people blame the "liberal media" as if there is some vast, unspoken conspiracy within the collective media to knowingly and deliberately misrepresent news and current affairs to do something that is never actually detailed, but is definitely happening.

Can anybody actually name a media baron who controls a privately-owned empire, openly promotes a progressive agenda, and who has avoided the ire of the Murdochs of the world,

Are you saying the American mainstream media (ABC, NBC, CBS) doesn't lean left?

 

[Scaff]

No. Jihadists kill Christians and other non-Muslims because they aren't Muslim,

I think you will find that the largest group, by religion, that Jihadists have killed is Muslims.

and gays are persecuted alongside bisexuals and transgenders because they aren't straight. Because the media is generally controlled by secularist progressives, the reports are titled, "Jihadists kill civilians" and "Gay couple denied service".

Hold on are you saying that its an issue if LGBT people are persecuted and its then reported in the media?

Are you saying the American mainstream media (ABC, NBC, CBS) doesn't lean left?

And they always state its "Jihadists kill civilians" rather than Christians don't they:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/isis-hundreds-of-assyrian-christian-hostages-in-syria/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/iraq-christians-persecuted-by-isis-60-minutes/
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/k...tacked-masked-gunman-breakingnews-com-n334386
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/is...s-rule-northern-iraq-amid-persecution-n200181


Ohhh wait!

Left or right is an irreverence to this, the left wing press is more than reporting on this:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/24/isis-kidnaps-90-christians-in-syria
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...tians-mosul-isis-convert-islam-or-be-executed
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...r-young-men-killed-by-militants-10051487.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/isis-behead-four-children-iraq-4767241

From a range of mainstream UK newspapers that are far, far, far more left wing than anything in the US mainstream

A quick google even shows the Morning Star reporting it and quite openly stating that Christians are being persecuted and killed......

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-24ad-Isis-guilty-of-Iraq-ethnic-cleansing
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/...bomb-attack-on-north-west-church#.VSCMLPnF-So

.....and that's a firm socialist newspaper (and not US socialist but real, lets nationalise everything socialist).

So yes it is being reported and reported widely even by news outlets far more left leaning and liberal that the ones you have named. As such your point seems to have come undone a little by the rather large amount of press reports quite clearly stating that Christians are targeted, persecuted and killed around the world.

 

[Imari]

Almost every post in this thread has been off-topic. Obviously Christians aren't the most persecuted group in the world (I would argue that the Jews are the most persecuted, homosexuals probably second, and Christians or Muslims possibly third), but that's not the point- the point is that nobody seems to care about their persecution- there has been relatively little support for Christians in danger. Secularism is certainly to blame for this. Many people nowadays look at Christians being killed by Muslims and think, "Religious people killing another religion, so religion must be bad." They completely ignore the fact that anyone is dying.

That's not true. It's just that people die all the time, and that the people killed were of a certain religion doesn't affect how important the news of their death is.

If a gay couple were denied service at a Chick-fil-A in Georgia, it would be all over the news- there would be a massive backlash against CFA. Protests would occur. Obama would probably have something to say about it. News headlines would appear for weeks about the event.

If a Christian family were killed in Kenya (which actually happened and is still happening), a story may appear once or twice on each of the mainstream news stations. The headline will read, "[Death Toll] people killed in Kenya", and they'll mention one time that it was because they were Christian. Fox will probably do several stories on it, as they always have. MSNBC will completely ignore it, except MAYBE Joe Scarborough. There won't be an outcry.

The thing is Americans are more interested in March Madness than a war on the other side of the world. And that's why there is such little coverage. Ron Burgundy got it right: news outlets cover what people want to hear, not what they need to hear.

You think people need to hear about what's going on in Kenya more than they need to hear about what's happening in their own state?

It's rational that minor local news is more heavily reported than major international news, because it's far more likely to be relevant to the people hearing it. I'd rather hear about a gay couple denied service in my town, because there's potentially something I could do about that if I was so inclined. People getting killed in Kenya is sad, and while I could technically do something about it there are a lot more barriers in the way of me actually being effective.

The Westboro Baptist Church is to Christians as Al-Qaeda is to Muslims. In other words, they have nothing to do with the true beliefs of Christianity or Islam, and they give their religion a bad name.

I find it odd how many "no true scotsman" arguments I'm seeing these days.

Here is a group that is persecuted from Malaysia to Sudan and which has its traditions constantly mocked and challenged in the West.

Oh, I see where this is all coming from now. Heh.

Best of luck with that.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

So let me get this straight ... Christians are being persecution because the media isn't reporting on when they're being persecuted? Does that mean that Christians have a persecution persecution complex complex?

In my experience from this thread, Christians come across as being extremely passive-aggressive. One hundred and forty-eight people were massacred in Kenya, but apparently the biggest problem here is that they weren't reported as being Christians as extensively as some Christians would like.

The world is struggling to cope with the rise of sectarian violence throughout the Middle East and Central Africa. It's a problem with no easy, quick or obvious solution. It doesn't help when the Christians then decide to make the issue all about them. They want more attention given to solving their specific problems, willfully ignorant of the way stopping ISIL will stop the persecution of many faiths, not just the one.

So are we really being silent on the persecution of one group because we're focusing on stopping the persecution of all groups? Or does it just bother the Christians that we're not trying to solve their problems first? Equal parts persecution and pariah complex don't make you right or your need any greater than anyone else's. Deal with it.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The Arch-Bishbod of Cadburys, the Most Reverented Justin is to speak on this very subject. You clearly have friends in high places, @KSaiyu

BBC story, make cocoa first.

 

[Johnnypenso]

In my experience from this thread, Christians come across as being extremely passive-aggressive. One hundred and forty-eight people were massacred in Kenya, but apparently the biggest problem here is that they weren't reported as being Christians as extensively as some Christians would like.

Which Christians in this thread come across as passive aggressive? And since when does having a discussion about one thing make it the most important thing?

The world is struggling to cope with the rise of sectarian violence throughout the Middle East and Central Africa. It's a problem with no easy, quick or obvious solution. It doesn't help when the Christians then decide to make the issue all about them. They want more attention given to solving their specific problems, willfully ignorant of the way stopping ISIL will stop the persecution of many faiths, not just the one.

Usually when members of your group are being killed, displaced, and you know, persecuted, you tend to advocate on their behalf. Jewish officials tend to talk about Jews being killed, Muslim officials will tend to talk about Muslims being killed, LBGT advocacy groups tend to advocate on their behalf. That's kind of how things work.

 

[Imari]

Usually when members of your group are being killed, displaced, and you know, persecuted, you tend to advocate on their behalf. Jewish officials tend to talk about Jews being killed, Muslim officials will tend to talk about Muslims being killed, LBGT advocacy groups tend to advocate on their behalf. That's kind of how things work.

And yet some of us are able to imagine ourselves as part of the group of "humans", instead of limiting it to only those who share the same beliefs as us.

If that's all you're capable of, fine. I suppose it's better that you stand up for your own group than for no one at all. Of course, that's why we have wars and stuff, because the less similarity to yourself you see in your opposition, the easier it is to hurt or kill them. It's a damn sight easier to kill a spider than it is to kill a puppy, and it's a lot easier to kill a puppy than another human.

If you can convince yourself that the guy in the church down the road isn't really a person like yourself, but some lesser being because he doesn't believe in the right sky fairy, then that's how we get religious persecution.

I think we see in this thread the distinction between those people who are only able to extend their empathy to those in their own self-defined sub-group, and those whose self-defined group is humanity in general.

I don't care about Christians being persecuted because I don't see that they've got it any worse than any other random person I might choose. I do care about humans being persecuted, but that's not the topic of this thread. The Christians here have made it very clear that this is about Christians being persecuted, and not anyone else. Not even comparatively.

And yes, I think that people who think of the good of humanity as a whole are better people than those who only think of the interests of themselves and those that they identify as close to them. But that's fine, you guys keep doing what makes you happy. I'll keep pointing out that I think you're being jerks to the other 5 billion people on the planet.

 

[DK]

Do your seriously believe that Christians lack pressure groups?

The lobbying power they have, along with the power and influence of the Vatican, not to mention the seats in the Lord's here in the UK.

Christians do not lack pressure groups at all.

Take a look at Ireland, we have powerful Catholic pressure groups - some of which have accused the Archbishop of Dublin for not being homophobic enough in the debate on the referendum on marriage equality.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Take a look at Ireland, we have powerful Catholic pressure groups

Take a look at Australia; we have powerful Catholic pressure groups - when our Prime Minister was faced with a leadership challenge following a series of inept and embarrassing failures, policy backdowns and backflips (backdownflips?), the Catholic pressure groups lobbied hard to politicians to keep him in power on the grounds that he had preserved the traditional definition of marriage, even though this was not an issue at the time and the majority of Australians support gay marriage.

 

[jimipitbull]

It's a terrible post because the OP is about today, not 75 years ago, today, April 2015. Comparing the treatment of gays, atheists and abortionists at the hands of Christians in the U.S. to the stabbing, shooting and beheading of hundreds, injuries to hundreds more, and the displacement of thousands or tens of thousand of people is a bad post. If the roles were reversed and gays were being slaughtered by the hundreds and driven from their homes like Christians are and someone put up a post about how Christians are being attacked in the U.S. for exercising their constitutional rights to religious freedom, you and dozens of others around here would attack that poster mercilessly.

Justice Department statistics show that black drivers are 31% more likely to be pulled over by police than white drivers.

Do you think that Christians in the U.S. today are persecuted more or less than African Americans?

 

[Joel]

The reason we don't have Catholic pressure groups that play the "victim card" is because the whole system is a Catholic pressure group. There is no need for an advocacy group for Catholics in the west because they're already hugely overrepresented in politics and in law. And in business. And in academia. And in elite social circles. And in prestigious charities.

It's like asking why there's no white entertainment network.

 

[Imari]

I'm sure that somewhere there's a half-black half-asian gay Christian transgendered dwarf in a wheelchair who thinks that the whole world is out to get hir.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The reason we don't have Catholic pressure groups that play the "victim card" is because the whole system is a Catholic pressure group. There is no need for an advocacy group for Catholics in the west because they're already hugely overrepresented in politics and in law. And in business. And in academia. And in elite social circles. And in prestigious charities.

It's like asking why there's no white entertainment network.

Define hugely overrepresented. In the Senate and House for example. Hugely to me would be 50-100% greater than their proportion of the population.

 

[jimipitbull]

I'm sure that somewhere there's a half-black half-asian gay Christian transgendered dwarf in a wheelchair who thinks that the whole world is out to get hir.

He is also 31% more likely to be pulled over by police.

 

[Carbonox]

The Westboro Baptist Church is to Christians as Al-Qaeda is to Muslims. In other words, they have nothing to do with the true beliefs of Christianity or Islam, and they give their religion a bad name.

An overstatement. They're assholes, but at least they're not assholes who blow themselves up in public places and cut people's heads off.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Justice Department statistics show that black drivers are 31% more likely to be pulled over by police than white drivers.

Do you think that Christians in the U.S. today are persecuted more or less than African Americans?

Your first statement is meaningless without context.

Your question to me is irrelevant. In the context of the OP, that is Christians being slaughtered by the hundreds, displaced out of their homes by the hundreds of thousands, neither American Christians nor African Americans are anywhere close to being on the same level.

 

[jimipitbull]

Your first statement is meaningless without context.

Your question to me is irrelevant. In the context of the OP, that is Christians being slaughtered by the hundreds, displaced out of their homes by the hundreds of thousands, neither American Christians nor African Americans are anywhere close to being on the same level.

The context is persecution, U.S. , 2015. All three groups (blacks, whites, police) are mostly Christians. It's an example of racial persecution of Christians, by Christians.

You are correct in saying that religion and race are not on the same level. Religion is a choice, it is optional.
You can't change your race.

It's not just Christians being killed or displaced. It's hard to quantify how many non religious people that looked like Christians or lived with/near Christians have been killed/displaced. As such, religion seems to be irrelevant.

In a perfect world the Jihadists would test everyone for bible skills before waging a holy war.

 

[JMoney]

An overstatement. They're assholes, but at least they're not assholes who blow themselves up in public places and cut people's heads off.

True, but to my knowledge Christians don't have a terrorist group in modern times like Al-Qaeda. WBC is the next-closest thing.

 

[Imari]

True, but to my knowledge Christians don't have a terrorist group in modern times like Al-Qaeda. WBC is the next-closest thing.

No, they exist. They're just not on the same scale as AQ.

You have to go back a way to find anything similar. The IRA sort of were, but it was arguably a political thing they were fighting for rather than a religious thing, they just happened to be Christians. The KKK/white supremacy groups probably count, but that was some time ago that they were on a scale whose power could be compared to some of the Muslim terror groups we have now.

Honestly, it probably goes in cycles. In 30 years the Muslims will probably have sorted their junk out and some other religion will be going through a fundamentalist revival. If we look at Christian history, there have been some amazingly enlightened patches and some disturbingly violent ones, and a whole lot in between. I'm sure it will all come around again, but hopefully not in my lifetime. One bunch of divinely inspired killers is more than enough for me.

 

[Dhalism]

This is why religion is bad, mmmmmkay?

As someone who has lived in Soviet Union i can't help but agree.
So peaceful

 

[JMoney]

No, they exist. They're just not on the same scale as AQ.

You have to go back a way to find anything similar. The IRA sort of were, but it was arguably a political thing they were fighting for rather than a religious thing, they just happened to be Christians. The KKK/white supremacy groups probably count, but that was some time ago that they were on a scale whose power could be compared to some of the Muslim terror groups we have now.

Honestly, it probably goes in cycles. In 30 years the Muslims will probably have sorted their junk out and some other religion will be going through a fundamentalist revival. If we look at Christian history, there have been some amazingly enlightened patches and some disturbingly violent ones, and a whole lot in between. I'm sure it will all come around again, but hopefully not in my lifetime. One bunch of divinely inspired killers is more than enough for me.

True, but to my knowledge Christians don't have a terrorist group in modern times like Al-Qaeda. WBC is the next-closest thing.

 

[jimipitbull]

True, but to my knowledge Christians don't have a terrorist group in modern times like Al-Qaeda. WBC is the next-closest thing.

Depends on perspective. Some countries probably consider the US a Christian terrorist group. Some indigenous tribes probably view Rio Tinto in a similar fashion.