Our silence on one of the most persecuted people in the world

[Scaff]

A "Christian" organization that targeted black people more than anyone else sounds like a group of racists trying to find a reason to kill black people only because they are black.

Almost every aspect of the group focused around Christianity, they targeted Jews because they killed Jesus and Cathiolics because they 'worship' the Pope and Mary (False idols) and yet you still try and maintain that religion doesn't play a part in this!

That was their main goal and KKK is USA stuff you can't find them somewhere else. ISIS is worldwide and it's spreading as we speak.

So unless its a world wide threat then its not a problem? You are aware of the world wide links that exist between Christian far right groups and that they are currently growing?

So if moderated Islam is really moderated by the numbers of declared moderated muslims ISIS wouldn't stand a chance, but is this what's really happening? Why they find new followers everyday?

Oddly enough I could say exactly the same thing about Christians who are too blinkered and in denial about terrorist groups that use Christianity as a justification! Its a degree of irony among some in this thread that is almost off the scale.

What about Christians who are not doing anything about the LRA, the IRA, etc?

Well actually a good number of Christians are, just as a good number of Muslims are. What religion do you think the people on the ground fighting ISIS right now are?

 

[DCP]

I disagree that its that simple (it would be nice if it were).

To try and remove religion as a motivating factor in many of these cases is simply an oversimplification, every single on of the people you have mentioned by name had a religious background (a worrying number had a very religious background). As such a large factor in setting the moral compass of these individuals was religion, for example to try and exclude Hitlers catholic upbringing as a factor in his anti-sematism is just plain absurd. He repeatedly acknowledged it himself and dedicated his struggle against Jews and his final solution to his creator.

I've heard the argument that he either did it just to gain favour from the church (big problem with that is he would have pick the Protestants not the Catholics in that case, German Protestants disliked Jews just as much and Catholics had long been persecuted in Germany following the reformation - they had significantly less influence that Protestants - Hitler helped Catholicism in Germany, hence the formal agreements between him and the Vatican) and/or that he turned his back on the Church in the end. Now the last point is very debatable and also a red herring, given that would do nothing to chance the original driving factor.

@Johnnypenso I agree yes. The greed and lust of a mans heart will enable him to do any kind of wickedness. History proves it.

@Scaff

Again, Hitler hasn't a clue on the foundation of Christianity. If he did, he wouldn't dare brutally kill all these people, especially the Jews. I don't care what anyone says, to kill in such a manner, is only the works of the devil.
Secondly, Isis and co are doing what their quran teaches them. To establish the 12 imam, and for islam to take over the world. They have specific verses to kill the jews, hate the christians, and destroy all unbelievers and infidels who do not believe in their god. It is what it is, including burning them.

You might argue that islam is a religion of peace, but then why have such gruesome instructions?
If they took over, you would have no choice but to get your head chopped off, or follow them.
If isis is killing innocent muslims, perhaps it's because they see them as a threat for not following the scriptures. It's terrible I know, but it's clear as day light. An ex atheist David Wood touches a lot on this issue if you interested.

Christianity is quite the opposite. Jesus is against all violence. He showed none of it. It's clear that if christians are killing violently, then they simply do not follow the commandments of their God.
It was said that there will be false Christianity as well. Clearly it wasn't a lie.

 

[Scaff]

Again, Hitler hasn't a clue on the foundation of Christianity. If he did, he wouldn't dare brutally kill all these people, especially the Jews. I don't care what anyone says, to kill in such a manner, is only the works of the devil.

Ahh, the 'no true Scotsman' logical fallacy.

You are aware that the Bible contains numerous anti-semetic passages? That the Church has used the Bible as justification to attack Jews many, many times?

Are you aware that the Crusaders first went on the rampage against Jews in Europe before shipping out?

Secondly, Isis and co are doing what their quran teaches them. To establish the 12 imam, and for islam to take over the world. They have specific verses to kill the jews, hate the christians, and destroy all unbelievers and infidels who do not believe in their god. It is what it is, including burning them.

Replace Christians with other religions and so does the bible.

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."2 John 7

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10

So basically the Bible says that anyone who isn't Christian is the Anticrist and they should be stoned to death.

You see when you cherry pick from ANY religious text you can get some rather fun results (oh and if you going to try and claim that Jesus did away with the OT stuff then exp;lain the Ten Commandments still being used, that the God of the OT is Jesus and that in Matthew Jesus himself says that he hasn't come to get ris of the old laws, quite the opposite).

You might argue that islam is a religion of peace, but then why have such gruesome instructions?

You might argue that Christianity and Judaism are religions of peace, but then why have such gruesome instructions?

If they took over, you would have no choice but to get your head chopped off, or follow them.
If isis is killing innocent muslims, perhaps it's because they see them as a threat for not following the scriptures. It's terrible I know, but it's clear as day light. An ex atheist David Wood touches a lot on this issue if you interested.

If who took over ISIS or Islam in general?

Or are you ignorant enough on the topic to simply conflate the two?

I've been to countries with a majority Muslim population, lived and worked in them, I'm not dead. Please explain.

Christianity is quite the opposite. Jesus is against all violence. He showed none of it. It's clear that if christians are killing violently, then they simply do not follow the commandments of their God.
It was said that there will be false Christianity as well. Clearly it wasn't a lie.

Yet in another thread you acknowledge that the God that kills in the OT is Jesus and that Jesus will return to kill (end of the NT - have you forgotten so quickly)

 

[DCP]

Ahh, the 'no true Scotsman' logical fallacy.

You are aware that the Bible contains numerous anti-semetic passages? That the Church has used the Bible as justification to attack Jews many, many times?

Are you aware that the Crusaders first went on the rampage against Jews in Europe before shipping out?



Replace Christians with other religions and so does the bible.

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."2 John 7

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10

So basically the Bible says that anyone who isn't Christian is the Anticrist and they should be stoned to death.

You see when you cherry pick from ANY religious text you can get some rather fun results (oh and if you going to try and claim that Jesus did away with the OT stuff then exp;lain the Ten Commandments still being used, that the God of the OT is Jesus and that in Matthew Jesus himself says that he hasn't come to get ris of the old laws, quite the opposite).



You might argue that Christianity and Judaism are religions of peace, but then why have such gruesome instructions?



If who took over ISIS or Islam in general?

Or are you ignorant enough on the topic to simply conflate the two?

I've been to countries with a majority Muslim population, lived and worked in them, I'm not dead. Please explain.



Yet in another thread you acknowledge that the God that kills in the OT is Jesus and that Jesus will return to kill (end of the NT - have you forgotten so quickly)

have you read the new law of the ten commandments yet? I can post it if you want, although I've gathered that you don't want any dealings with biblical verses.

I was referring to Isis taking over, not islam. I was pretty clear that even muslims are being killed.

See it as Jesus giving you multiple opportunities to repent. We all have close calls, yet we quickly see them as fate, luck, or "right place at the right time"

Orthodox jews still follow the OT laws of Moses, totally writing off the Messiah, even though it was prophesied.
Again, if you follow Christ since the birth of the church, killing is completely out of the question. This is covered by false churches with false doctrines.

Jesus doesn't kill a soul when He returns. He casts all people of sin and wickedness in eternal condemnation. They are well and truly still alive, weeping and gnashing their teeth.

 

[Scaff]

have you read the new law of the ten commandments yet? I can post it if you want, although I've gathered that you don't want any dealings with biblical verses.

I've not said that at all?

Post away. As long as it supports the point you are making rather than being used instead of an answer its fine.

I was referring to Isis taking over, not islam. I was pretty clear that even muslims are being killed.

Pretty sure you wrote off all of Islam when you stated that the Koran demands that the all kill the unbeliever (you know like the Bible does).

See it as Jesus giving you multiple opportunities to repent. We all have close calls, yet we quickly see them as fate, luck, or "right place at the right time"

And?

Orthodox jews still follow the OT laws of Moses, totally writing off the Messiah, even though it was prophesied.
Again, if you follow Christ since the birth of the church, killing is completely out of the question. This is covered by false churches with false doctrines.

Please explain Christian countries with armies.

Explain the Inquisition?

Explain the Crusades?

 

[DCP]

I've not said that at all?

Post away. As long as it supports the point you are making rather than being used instead of an answer its fine.

Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, meaning to give the law it's fullness under Grace.
There is no killing in any of the commandments required.
If anything, one of them states thou shall not murder.



Pretty sure you wrote off all of Islam when you stated that the Koran demands that the all kill the unbeliever (you know like the Bible does).

Well yes. The quran is their final revelation, which makes all verses valid for instruction.
Like I said, they are to call the 12 imam, which ironically is the "anti-christ the bible talks of to come" under a one world movement.



Please explain Christian countries with armies.

Explain the Inquisition?

Explain the Crusades?

Never heard of christian countries. Christians live in all countries, but the governments running those countries choose whether to have armies.

Again, the rest follow their own made christian doctrine. Not everyone who cries Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[squadops]

At a recent prayer breakfast President Obama addressed this comparison between the recent attacks against Christians and attacks Christians have been guilty of. Being one of the more vocal in our government to point out injustices, often going against the status quo to support the minority. He focused on events over 500 years old along with slavery and segregation in the U.S. I don't see the things he mentions having any relevance but it's what he came up with.

He started out with a slice of today...

As we speak, around the world, we see faith inspiring people to lift up one another -- to feed the hungry and care for the poor, and comfort the afflicted and make peace where there is strife. We heard the good work that Sister has done in Philadelphia, and the incredible work that Dr. Brantly and his colleagues have done. We see faith driving us to do right.

But we also see faith being twisted and distorted, used as a wedge -- or, worse, sometimes used as a weapon. From a school in Pakistan to the streets of Paris, we have seen violence and terror perpetrated by those who profess to stand up for faith, their faith, professed to stand up for Islam, but, in fact, are betraying it. We see ISIL, a brutal, vicious death cult that, in the name of religion, carries out unspeakable acts of barbarism -- terrorizing religious minorities like the Yezidis, subjecting women to rape as a weapon of war, and claiming the mantle of religious authority for such actions.

We see sectarian war in Syria, the murder of Muslims and Christians in Nigeria, religious war in the Central African Republic, a rising tide of anti-Semitism and hate crimes in Europe, so often perpetrated in the name of religion.

Then he moved onto this...

Humanity has been grappling with these questions throughout human history. And lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ. In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ.

High horse? I don't think so, some bad things that happened forever ago should be let go at some point. I think slavery was more justified by financial gain than religion, and the Jim Crow laws to soften the blow to the south and maybe defuse more violence. Of course I do not condone any of the acts he outlined, I'm just wondering why he didn't mention any of the things some are pointing out in this thread if they are prominent.

He goes on with a bunch of stuff about humility etc. Here is the entire text.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2015/02/05/remarks-president-national-prayer-breakfast

 

[Scaff]

Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, meaning to give the law it's fullness under Grace.

Lets have it in full shall we:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.(Matthew5:17)
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew5:18)
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew5:19)

And so on and so on.

The laws stand its rather clear.

There is no killing in any of the commandments required.
If anything, one of them states thou shall not murder.

It says thou shall not Murder, not kill.

You are aware that they are two different things and that difference has been used by some Christians for a good 2,000 years to justify killing.

I have to say that I'm rather surprised at how unaware of this you are!

Well yes. The quran is their final revelation, which makes all verses valid for instruction.
Like I said, they are to call the 12 imam, which ironically is the "anti-christ the bible talks of to come" under a one world movement.

What you mean exactly like the final book of the NT does?

You can't take issue with the calls to violence in the Koran and then ignore all of them in the Bible without looking like a hypocrite of immense proportions.

Never heard of christian countries. Christians live in all countries, but the governments running those countries choose whether to have armies.

Again, the rest follow their own made christian doctrine. Not everyone who cries Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.

Never heard of a country with Christianity as a state religion? Are you actually serious?

OK let me give you an example. The UK is a democratic Monarchy with a state religion of Christianity, the Monarch is the head of the Church, the armed forces of the UK swear loyalty to the Monarch.

As such that would be the army of a Christian country, not really that difficult to figure out.

Now could you actually answer the questions I asked and also stop with the absurd formatting.

Of course I do not condone any of the acts he outlined, I'm just wondering why he didn't mention any of the things some are pointing out in this thread if they are prominent.

Maybe because he was addressing an American audience and as such covering topics that Americans will have a direct awareness of (and some will have lived with) gave the point more resonance (given that one American in this thread tried to claim that the IRA were not terrorists he may well have been wise to do so).

 

[Tornado]

Plus, it has to be said, if you could find someone at the time in America who did actually care about what was going on in Northern Ireland when it was at a fever pitch it's probably a safer bet to make that they believed in what the IRA was doing (or at least was willing to intentionally look the other way) instead of condemning it. The topic of religion starting all wars was discussed on my local radio station at work today, and someone actually called in just to blame Britain for everything in Northern Ireland when the Catholicism/IRA thing was brought up (and went so far as to say that one of the hosts couldn't really be of Irish descent when she disagreed).

 

[LeMansAid]

Actually we were given a list of 100 or so names of (purportedly) slaves in ancient Egypt, perhaps thirty of which might have sounded like they could, maybe, have been Jewish names. You didn't find that bit of evidence compelling?

Haha, it would have been a perfect revival. Unfortunately GTP member dxld has been banned though.

 

[DCP]

Lets have it in full shall we:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.(Matthew5:17)
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew5:18)
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew5:19)

And so on and so on.

The laws stand its rather clear.



It says thou shall not Murder, not kill.

You are aware that they are two different things and that difference has been used by some Christians for a good 2,000 years to justify killing.

I have to say that I'm rather surprised at how unaware of this you are!



What you mean exactly like the final book of the NT does?

You can't take issue with the calls to violence in the Koran and then ignore all of them in the Bible without looking like a hypocrite of immense proportions.



Never heard of a country with Christianity as a state religion? Are you actually serious?

OK let me give you an example. The UK is a democratic Monarchy with a state religion of Christianity, the Monarch is the head of the Church, the armed forces of the UK swear loyalty to the Monarch.

As such that would be the army of a Christian country, not really that difficult to figure out.

Now could you actually answer the questions I asked and also stop with the absurd formatting.


Maybe because he was addressing an American audience and as such covering topics that Americans will have a direct awareness of (and some will have lived with) gave the point more resonance (given that one American in this thread tried to claim that the IRA were not terrorists he may well have been wise to do so).

Okay, so list the ten commandments, lets see what is wrong with them.


This will help with the "murder" commandment....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_kill


Please go ahead and show me where Jesus said it's okay to kill in the NT?
He said, if someone strikes you, turn the other cheek. I understand it's not easy to do so, but the point He was making was, try not to retaliate to violence. He walked our road, He knows our hearts, He understands our minds. Hence His willingness to forgive us. We can never be perfect in flesh. We will always make mistakes. That's the whole point.
So in putting it, if you are driven to kill someone in say, self defence, or fear becoming a victim, God knows your heart.
If you kill with malice, God knows your heart. War in inevitable, and so is self defence. God of the OT ordered many killings, but people don't even understand why, and with good reason. To destroy even babies, knowing full well that children inherit the kingdom of heaven. There are many of us that want salvation, while there are many others that still can't stop blaming God for everything.


Again, heard of the falling away in the last days, and the apostasy of the church?
False Christianity is inevitable. Jesus says watch and pray, so that you may escape all these things.
All about the Rapture, and then the chaos begins. What is seen now is child's play.

It has become first nature for countries to build armies to protect themselves, even Christian countries as you say.
If they really stood on the word of God, they would realise that they shouldn't be afraid of death. They should understand that death has no sting, and no victory.

 

[Scaff]

Okay, so list the ten commandments, lets see what is wrong with them.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make idols.
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.

A list of the rather morally obvious (but with draconian penalties for breaking them) in 5 to 10, with 1 to 4 (40% of them) dedicated to keeping your masses in control (again with draconian penalties).

Now whats missing, what about child abuse, what about rape, what about slavery? How can anyone put the first four in and miss out those three?

What exactly does that say about biblical morals?

This will help with the "murder" commandment....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_kill

Yep, it backs up what I said and flies in the face of your claim.

Please go ahead and show me where Jesus said it's okay to kill in the NT?
He said, if someone strikes you, turn the other cheek. I understand it's not easy to do so, but the point He was making was, try not to retaliate to violence. He walked our road, He knows our hearts, He understands our minds. Hence His willingness to forgive us. We can never be perfect in flesh. We will always make mistakes. That's the whole point.
So in putting it, if you are driven to kill someone in say, self defence, or fear becoming a victim, God knows your heart.

He says turn the other cheek with running rampage in a temple (quite clearly not turning the other cheek), he says turn the other cheek while cursing a fig bush to wither (quite clearly not turning the other cheek).

Now the first is a quite clear contradiction with his own words and him, in part, enforcing the old laws on money lending.

The second is either very, very petty, or as many claim actually refers to the Jews in metaphor (which is very worrying).

Either way both of these examples show that the man didn't practice what he preached. I do also notice that you haven't actually addressed the point about the verses in Matthew quite clearly stating that the old laws stands (not a stroke of a letter can be changed)

Its almost as if its an incoherent, contradictory mess of texts written by different men at different times..............................................oh wait.

If you kill with malice, God knows your heart. War in inevitable, and so is self defence. God of the OT ordered many killings, but people don't even understand why, and with good reason. To destroy even babies, knowing full well that children inherit the kingdom of heaven. There are many of us that want salvation, while there are many others that still can't stop blaming God for everything.

Goalposts moving.

Again, heard of the falling away in the last days, and the apostasy of the church?
False Christianity is inevitable. Jesus says watch and pray, so that you may escape all these things.
All about the Rapture, and then the chaos begins. What is seen now is child's play.

So we are in the end days.

Do you know how many times this has supposed to happen in the last 2,000 odd years?

It has become first nature for countries to build armies to protect themselves, even Christian countries as you say.
If they really stood on the word of God, they would realise that they shouldn't be afraid of death. They should understand that death has no sting, and no victory.

A zealot to the point of welcoming death, its not often that one gets to hear conformation of Christianity as a death cult.

 

[polysmut]

I hadn't checked this thread for a few days, catching up has been quite a good read.
For clarity's sake, I'm pretty sure this is a typo?

Republicans wanted a united Ireland, which would mean united with a country that outside the Vatican is one of the most Catholic influenced on the planet; while Republicans wanted to remain tied to the UK with a firm link to the Monarch (most are/were firm Monarchists) who is also the head of the Church of England.

 

[BobK]

Okay, so list the ten commandments, lets see what is wrong with them.

I'm afraid you've rather missed the point. You said the "old law" no longer applies, because Jesus. But the Ten Commandments (part of the "old law") still apply. Where in the Bible, and which version, does it specify which parts of the old law still apply and which don't?

Note that Matthew 5:17 says the entirety of the old law is in effect; where does it say otherwise?

 

[Scaff]

I hadn't checked this thread for a few days, catching up has been quite a good read.
For clarity's sake, I'm pretty sure this is a typo?

Yep, the second one should Loyalists, well spotted.

 

[Imari]

This will help with the "murder" commandment....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_kill

I like how you didn't even bother to read the first sentence of your own link.

"You shall not murder" (Hebrewלֹא תִּרְצָחlo tirṣaḥ) (incorrectly translated as You shall not kill (KJV) or Thou shalt not kill (LXX; οὐ φονεύσεις), is a moral imperative included as one of the Ten Commandments in the Torah,[1]specifically Exodus 20:13 and Deuteronomy 5:17.

 

[Liquid]

Now that's interesting because in the brackets for the LXX it says φονεύσεις (fonevsis) which comes from φονεύω (fonevo) which actually does mean murder. The verb to kill, while admittedly very similar, is φόνος (fonos).

So in the LXX which is an early Greek Bible, it does say "Thou shalt not murder" in the actual Greek script but the English translation of that Greek script is "Thou shalt not kill".

Would you look at that! Things getting lost in translation. Word of god isn't as watertight as is claimed.

 

[JMoney]

You moved the goalposts a mile

Goalposts.........................................................Moved

It couldn't be a better example of the goal posts being moved.

......that's moving the goalposts in a huge manner.

Those goal posts again, do they ever stop shifting.

Now if I were being cynical I would say that you deliberately set the terms wide so as to be able to shift the goalposts if you got an answer you didn't like (and lets not be coy here, you moved the goalposts).

Those goalposts...................................moving again.

Goalposts moving.

 

[Scaff]

@JMoney And?

 

[Johnnypenso]

@JMoney is moving the goalposts with a dog meme

 

[DCP]

@Scaff

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make idols.
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.

A list of the rather morally obvious (but with draconian penalties for breaking them) in 5 to 10, with 1 to 4 (40% of them) dedicated to keeping your masses in control (again with draconian penalties).

Now whats missing, what about child abuse, what about rape, what about slavery? How can anyone put the first four in and miss out those three?

What exactly does that say about biblical morals?

Now you can see how lawlessness will abound. People can't even read scripture for what it is anymore. Why I'm I not surprised. The heathen cannot understand Gods word, if He doesn't even believe in God.

Okay quickly, If you start with commandment one, you will know that God hates sin, so you're sinful deeds listed, must be abolished in a mans life. Read what Jesus had to say about precious children:

Luke 17:2
He said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come! 2"It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these "little ones" to stumble. 3"Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.…

Yep, it backs up what I said and flies in the face of your claim.


Murder or kill, did you miss the point?
Lets try. Murder is killing in the womb. Who practices and allows abortion? If a child in a womb could speak out, one would expect it to ask "If my father raped my mother, why should I die for their crimes"
Jesus said if you look at another man with anger, you have committed murder. Man those are high standards.
I even consider "worry" to be a sin, especially for a born again Christian, because they do not put all their trust in God.

He says turn the other cheek with running rampage in a temple (quite clearly not turning the other cheek), he says turn the other cheek while cursing a fig bush to wither (quite clearly not turning the other cheek).

Now the first is a quite clear contradiction with his own words and him, in part, enforcing the old laws on money lending.

The second is either very, very petty, or as many claim actually refers to the Jews in metaphor (which is very worrying).

Either way both of these examples show that the man didn't practice what he preached. I do also notice that you haven't actually addressed the point about the verses in Matthew quite clearly stating that the old laws stands (not a stroke of a letter can be changed)

Its almost as if its an incoherent, contradictory mess of texts written by different men at different times..............................................oh wait.

If God has come to teach man, and see's man using His prayer house as a casino, don't you think he would get it out of there? If a man used your house as an animal abuse house, would you turn the other cheek? I suspect you would call the Cops on him, unless you hate animals.

Yes, the Fig tree does represent Israel. They rejected the Messiah, and naturally crucified Him. The price for that was the destruction in 70AD.

Goalposts moving.
Oh we're in the same boat as you, don't you worry...


So we are in the end days.

Do you know how many times this has supposed to happen in the last 2,000 odd years?

If Israel fell as a nation 2000 years ago, how could the end days come? I'll say it again, hopefully it's taken in this time.

Matthew 13
28"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29"Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 30"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.…

Let me ask you, as I saw you said you have 3 beautiful children, and I'm sure they are, but how would you feel when God takes them away? He is not taking them away to spite you, but to protect them from the wrath of satan. If you don't accept and understand this, you will continue blaming God for the rest of your days.

I mean, how far is the One world government?
How far is the mark of the beast " A chip that allows buying and selling" or the one world currency?
When is mankind going to make this a self fulfilling prophecy, coz that's the only logic that people bring up.
I mean, the bible actually warns of mankind falling into satans trap, yet they wilfully follow the desires of their heart, because they think that is they ignore all these signs, nothing will come upon them.

A zealot to the point of welcoming death, its not often that one gets to hear conformation of Christianity as a death cult.

Death is inevitable. Drugs might prolong it, but God wasn't kidding when he said to Adam, and surely you will die.
The physical death is not what you should be concerned about. It's the spiritual death.
Call on Christ, and you will have no fear in the world, even if isis came knocking on your door.

@BobK
I'm afraid you've rather missed the point. You said the "old law" no longer applies, because Jesus. But the Ten Commandments (part of the "old law") still apply. Where in the Bible, and which version, does it specify which parts of the old law still apply and which don't?

Note that Matthew 5:17 says the entirety of the old law is in effect; where does it say otherwise?

Understand the context in which Jesus is speaking first.
With these words, Jesus honoured the Law as God's Holy Word and declared the Law to be perfect, non-negotiable, and a true prediction of God's work in the future. The fullfilment of the Law is found in Christ Himself and His finished work of redemption.
We are saved by God's grace (Ephesians 2:8–9). Being under grace, believers are not bound by the Law (Romans 6:14), but we have the Holy Spirit actually living in our hearts. The Spirit gives us the ability to "love one another" (John 13:34), and we know that "the one who loves another has fulfilled the law" (Romans 13:8). Christians do not work at fulfilling the Mosaic Law, which Christ fulfilled on our behalf (Matthew 5:17); rather, we fulfill the "law of Christ" by the Spirit's power (Galatians 6:2).

If I had no care for your souls, I would be wasting my time here, allowing people to have a real laugh at me for my belief in Christ "if this is the case". It was written of such things. The Word covers us every time.

Men willingly think they can see billions of years into the past. Did they even consider how much even 1 million years is? Yet they ignorantly dismiss the importance of their soul, and saving their families from wrath upon this world.
Jesus asked the question "What would it profit a man, if he gained the whole world, yet lost his own soul"

 

[Scaff]

Now you can see how lawlessness will abound. People can't even read scripture for what it is anymore. Why I'm I not surprised. The heathen cannot understand Gods word, if He doesn't even believe in God.

Okay quickly, If you start with commandment one, you will know that God hates sin, so you're sinful deeds listed, must be abolished in a mans life. Read what Jesus had to say about precious children:

Luke 17:2
He said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come! 2"It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these "little ones" to stumble. 3"Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.…

Do you intend to actually answer any of the questions you have been asked or simply avoid them and cite scripture at people while throwing around thinly veiled insults?

Answer the actual questions.

Murder or kill, did you miss the point?
Lets try. Murder is killing in the womb. Who practices and allows abortion? If a child in a womb could speak out, one would expect it to ask "If my father raped my mother, why should I die for their crimes"
Jesus said if you look at another man with anger, you have committed murder. Man those are high standards.
I even consider "worry" to be a sin, especially for a born again Christian, because they do not put all their trust in God.

What?

You are the one who said that Christians must not kill, it was then pointed out to you that the commandment doesn't actually say that (it says murder - thus making killing quite OK by Christian standards).

That you don't want to (again) address that, and instead want to try and shift the terms of the discussion is your issue not mine.

Answer the question, why did you say that Christians don't kill when the Bibles says they can and repeatedly instructs them to do so?

If God has come to teach man, and see's man using His prayer house as a casino, don't you think he would get it out of there? If a man used your house as an animal abuse house, would you turn the other cheek? I suspect you would call the Cops on him, unless you hate animals.

Yes, the Fig tree does represent Israel. They rejected the Messiah, and naturally crucified Him. The price for that was the destruction in 70AD.

So you acknowledge that Jesus is a hypocrite and the Bible is Anti-semetic?

Odd that he would set these standards and then ignore them?

Oh and Isreal wasn't destroyed in 70AD, your out by quite a few hundred years on that one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_(united_monarchy)

Oh we're in the same boat as you, don't you worry...

How many questions have I avoided answering or changed the parameters when I didn't like the answer?

The two of you are doing yourself no favours by both avoiding questions, changing your mind on the questions you ask when you don't like the answers and then resorting to mockery when that is brought up.

For a pair of self declared Christians your behavior is far from your own claimed moral standards, but not (unfortunately) surprising.

If Israel fell as a nation 2000 years ago, how could the end days come? I'll say it again, hopefully it's taken in this time.

One more personal attack and you get to go in the sin bin for two days.

You can't answer a straight question and yet when others ask you to clarify or use clarifying statement you see fit to make personal digs!

Answer the questions.

Matthew 13
28"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29"Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 30"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.…

Let me ask you, as I saw you said you have 3 beautiful children, and I'm sure they are, but how would you feel when God takes them away? He is not taking them away to spite you, but to protect them from the wrath of satan. If you don't accept and understand this, you will continue blaming God for the rest of your days.

How can I blame something I have no belief it? Something that no evidence for exists at all?

Please don't project your own beliefs onto me.

I mean, how far is the One world government?
How far is the mark of the beast " A chip that allows buying and selling" or the one world currency?
When is mankind going to make this a self fulfilling prophecy, coz that's the only logic that people bring up.
I mean, the bible actually warns of mankind falling into satans trap, yet they wilfully follow the desires of their heart, because they think that is they ignore all these signs, nothing will come upon them.

Once again self fulfilling.

 

[afbarnes]

Lets try. Murder is killing in the womb. Who practices and allows abortion?

Okay, abortion isn't murder, you cannot murder a group of cells. Abortion is a practise that many people have to go through, rape victims that don't want to have a child, if the foetus is killing the mother (whether she wants to keep it or not,) if the foetus is all ready dead because of an illness or disfigurement during development, or simply the mother has changed her mind and does not feel ready to have a child. Last time i checked it was highly trained doctors, that have studied medicine for many years that practices abortion, and unortunately (in the US) its polititions that say if abortion should be allowed (The Pro Life vs. Pro Choice movement) which is odd as 90% of the people deciding on this are male..?

If a child in a womb could speak out, one would expect it to ask "If my father raped my mother, why should I die for their crimes"

Yes but a foetus in the womb cannot speak and therefore wouldn't say anything. Fact. This cannot be changed.

Jesus said if you look at another man with anger, you have committed murder. Man those are high standards.
I even consider "worry" to be a sin, especially for a born again Christian, because they do not put all their trust in God.

Well Jesus is wrong then and sometimes sounds like a bit of a drama queen, like he does here... I look at many people in anger; people on the TV, other drivers on the road, people at work (specifically children) people on the tube.. etc. After looking at them in anger, have they dropped dead? No. They just carry on as normal.

Why is worrying considered a sin? Worrying is a perfectly natural human action, I worry all the time, I mean that would be my ticket to hell (if it existed) but I'm already going there for being an abomination against God's creation as you said in another thread, so the worrying is just the icing on the cake.

 

[zzz_pt]

Christians are the world's largest religious group. All other things being equal, you'd expect them to have the highest absolute number of persecution events. 0.01% of 2 billion is a lot more people than 0.01% of 20 thousand.

I'd be interested to see if Christians are persecuted disproportionately compared to their numbers. Realistically, I'd expect big variation depending on geography.

I don't think the information provided so far gives enough to have an informed discussion about the matter, there is far too much that is unknown. Comparable numbers for the other major religions would be a good start.

This was the first think I thought as well.

I would guess that religious people are more "persecuted" in places where people have a high level of religiosity.

In places (for example japan, northern Europe and europe in general) where secularism and atheism is highly spread, religious people are not persecuted. They can think secularism is a threat to their freedom of religion or a thread to their beliefs but that is bollocks.

 

[DCP]

Hi there. Would love to respond but I've been going off topic, and don't want to get nailed.
I've already violated the multiple posts rule.
Let me know if it's okay to pm you, thanks.

 

[DK]

Oh boy, the "godlessness causes murder" bullcrap is getting spewed out again. I guess Honduras, with its murder rate of 90.4 per 100,000 people, should be a heathen hellhole, right?

For comparison, Uruguay has a murder rate of 7.9 per 100,000 of the population.

 

[Danoff]

How did this become another God thread. I think we already have at least 12 of those. Wasn't there something about Christians claiming victimhood for being persecuted by people who are also persecuting everyone else? Let's get back to that.

 

[Carbonox]

It'd be nice to not make this into a worldwide contest of which group gets persecuted the most, but look at it in a smaller scale. After all, the homophobic Christians in powerful positions and their brethren bombing abortion clinics in America don't exactly compare to the Christians in the Middle East suffering from constant persecution due to their infidelness...

 

[Danoff]

I feel like it's easier to make a list of groups in the middle east that aren't persecuted.

 

[Carbonox]

I feel like it's easier to make a list of groups in the middle east that aren't persecuted.

- Shia Muslims
- Sunni Muslims

I can't think of more, unless we start counting Wahhabists and such like as their own groups too.