Our silence on one of the most persecuted people in the world

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Of course I think it's silly that they censored the Mohammad episode. But I think that was less out of political correctness and more out of a fear of genuine repercussions, as we saw in Paris a few months ago.
Plus, as I recall, the first episode was made in response to the riots and protests in response to that Dutch magazine thing; so as silly as it was that they censored that one it's also not what I would call the most surprising thing. The second time they censored it was far more ridiculous.
 
You've never been to America, have you?
Was looking to go this year but I'm thinking I'll do my elective over there - why do you ask (remembering that the "NY" in the NYTimes article I posted stands for New York which is in...)?

If Americans want to weigh in and say that over there it is culturally acceptable to attack all religions equally then fair play. From my experience it seems to be not as sensitive as race (to which there is definitely a degree more PC than religion) nor as ludicrous as our attitudes, but I'd surmise it's probably more acceptable to be harsher on one of them.
 
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Was looking to go this year but I'm thinking I'll do my elective over there - why do you ask
Because you're making a very broad statement about 320 million people. You haven't experienced the culture (and indeed, range of cultures; it's a big country) firsthand, however you seem to think that you know exactly how all Americans would react to what people said decades ago if it was stated as fact. Most of your arguments seem to rest on assumptions on how millions of people will react to overly broad statements. You're making sweeping generalisations with no factual basis and presenting them as indisputable truths. They're far from it; they're ridiculous, unfounded, and untrue.
(remembering that the "NY" in the NYTimes article I posted stands for New York which is in...)?
Really? Wow, I never knew that! You learn something new every day.
 
Because you're making a very broad statement about 320 million people. You haven't experienced the culture (and indeed, range of cultures; it's a big country) firsthand, however you seem to think that you know exactly how all Americans would react to what people said decades ago if it was stated as fact. Most of your arguments seem to rest on assumptions on how millions of people will react to overly broad statements. You're making sweeping generalisations with no factual basis and presenting them as indisputable truths. They're far from it; they're ridiculous, unfounded, and untrue.
There we go with the hyperbole.

Quote where I suggested this please.
 
OK, then may I suggest you need to understand subtleties a little.

I'll give you an example:

The Nazi Party had a problem with Jews...
This follows that every Nazi Party member had a problem with Jews...
Oskar Schindler was a Nazi Party member...

You see the problem with that line of thinking?
 
You see the problem with that line of thinking?
Do you? I just listed five instances where you made broad, sweeping statements with no caveats or qualifers, all in an effort to try and elicit an answer to a leading question. Since you're now an expert in subtlety and you've proved that sweeping generalisations are not factual and don't hold up in debate, let's take a look at your question again:

which two the modern Western World would have a problem with?

This question is leading, and shows that you're not actually interested in getting an intelligent response. You want someone to give the answer you have very clearly asked for, so you can use their answer to validate your argument which has no logical basis. In the question, you clearly state that the "modern western world" would have a "problem" with exactly two of those statements. You have no way of backing up this claim; you've merely worded your opinion as a question.

You have asserted that the
modern Western World
will collectively agree that two statements are problematic and one is not. As before, you have no evidence of this. You have made a sweeping statement which supports your argument, but you have no support for this statement, nor will you be able to produce any conclusive proof that your assertion is true. It's a sweeping statement that has no basis in fact.

Let's examine this further. You contend that the western world has a problem with people criticising Islam and Judaism but is perfectly fine with people attacking Christianity.
The Nazi Party had a problem with Jews...
This follows that every Nazi Party member had a problem with Jews...
Oskar Schindler was a Nazi Party member...

The western world has no desire to stop people persecuting Christians...
This follows that every member of the western world has no desire to stop people persecuting Christians...
You are a member of the western world...

So,
You see the problem with that line of thinking?
 
Alright, open question since you're knotting yourself up and I don't have time for circular arguments:

Do you think that in Britain 2015 we can say all 3 of those observations and expect the same response from the public, institutions and press at large?
 
Alright, open question since you're knotting yourself up and I don't have time for circular arguments:

Do you think that in Britain 2015 we can say all 3 of those observations and expect the same response from the public, institutions and press at large?
Why would you expect the same response?

They address different issues in differing ways.

In a nut-shell the first says Christianity can be bad but overall it makes people good, Islam is just full of violent nutters (but don't worry we have some good guns and some nerve gas so it will be fine) and the Jews only have themselves to blame.

It reads like a Christian apologist having a pop at Islam and Judaism, so no you would not expect the same response to three different statements.

Its a leading and biased question, the only way to get a reasonably fair analysis of it would be to ask a wide cross section of the public about the same statements about religion X, but with the religion changed over.
 
The parts bolded only - notice I didn't highlight his positive slant to Christianity.

Just those three, negative observations
 
So, after leaving this thread for a few days and coming back to find that nothing has changed, I have to ask: what is the purpose of this thread? What outcome(s) are you expecting to see as a result of it?
 
So, after leaving this thread for a few days and coming back to find that nothing has changed, I have to ask: what is the purpose of this thread? What outcome(s) are you expecting to see as a result of it?
I expect it's an attempt to bring attention to an issue that's "hiding in plain sight". I think society in general sees peoples that should be able to "take it on the chin" and others that require protection, and attention to conjure that protection.

If you're white, Christian, and male.... life's good right? Yeah sure, just ask a Zimbawean farmer about it.

It's as if "we" have just discovered societal post modernism, and it's increasingly kitsch cool to show support for minorities and "minorities" but passe as hell to sympathise with any of those that we're attuned to viewing as the rulers of the modern world.
 
So a century ago, when schooling became mandatory in western cultures, students were forced to study and recite religious texts. They were forced to identify as Christian, catholic, whatever. This happened over many generations.

In hindsight, yes, that was persecution. If it wasn't for that, the generations of religious abuse, there would not be so many identifying as Christian today.
 
So a century ago, when schooling became mandatory in western cultures, students were forced to study and recite religious texts. They were forced to identify as Christian, catholic, whatever. This happened over many generations.

In hindsight, yes, that was persecution. If it wasn't for that, the generations of religious abuse, there would not be so many identifying as Christian today.
Now we're getting somewhere. This seems to be the prevailing attitude in the West, some sort of atonement for mistakes of the past. It's especially prominent in Britain - I call it post-Imperialism-syndrome. British kids nowadays can tell you all about MLK but won't know who William the Conqueror was.

Let me tell you why this attitude is wrong.

A century ago you were imprisoned for being gay.
In the 60's you could have "the gay beaten out of you".
Growing up where I'm from all your friends would try to convince you gay people were the worst kind, if they were even people at all.

And how does the LGBT community respond. Do gay nurses ignore the white majority patients because of past abuses? How about minority patients to even out the score? What about the harassment they face shift in shift out? And what about the lesbian lead nurses - do they ignore large sections of their patient demographic because of the discrimination their parents and grandparents faced?
 
Now we're getting somewhere. This seems to be the prevailing attitude in the West, some sort of atonement for mistakes of the past. It's especially prominent in Britain - I call it post-Imperialism-syndrome. British kids nowadays can tell you all about MLK but won't know who William the Conqueror was.

Let me tell you why this attitude is wrong.

A century ago you were imprisoned for being gay.
In the 60's you could have "the gay beaten out of you".
Growing up where I'm from all your friends would try to convince you gay people were the worst kind, if they were even people at all.

And how does the LGBT community respond. Do gay nurses ignore the white majority patients because of past abuses? How about minority patients to even out the score? What about the harassment they face shift in shift out? And what about the lesbian lead nurses - do they ignore large sections of their patient demographic because of the discrimination their parents and grandparents faced?

So basically you agree, that the popularity of Christianity is partly due to Christians persecuting other people into becoming Christians.

Those children were innocent. Imagine if they were taught science instead of religion, all the great medicines and inventions we might have.
 
So basically you agree, that the popularity of Christianity is partly due to Christians persecuting other people into becoming Christians.
I'm not disputing that - I don't think Churchill was either. I'm showing it's no justification

jimipitbull
Those children were innocent. Imagine if they were taught science instead of religion, all the great medicines and inventions we might have.
Ahh but is there a role for it, or spirituality at least. There's an interesting question
 
I expect it's an attempt to bring attention to an issue that's "hiding in plain sight". I think society in general sees peoples that should be able to "take it on the chin" and others that require protection, and attention to conjure that protection.

If you're white, Christian, and male.... life's good right? Yeah sure, just ask a Zimbawean farmer about it.

It's as if "we" have just discovered societal post modernism, and it's increasingly kitsch cool to show support for minorities and "minorities" but passe as hell to sympathise with any of those that we're attuned to viewing as the rulers of the modern world.

Is the Zimbabwean farmer white, Christian, and male?
 
It seemed obvious to me that he was in that example, especially given recent bloody history ;)

Well, these are also zimbabwean farmers:

Zimbabwean-woman-digs-out-007.jpg

20080819_ZimFarmers_HighRes.jpg

ZIM2012069635.jpg
 
I expect it's an attempt to bring attention to an issue that's "hiding in plain sight".
Well, if that's the case, then I think it's been an abject failure - it's come across as someone shouting "PAY ATTENTION TO US!!".

It's as if "we" have just discovered societal post modernism, and it's increasingly kitsch cool to show support for minorities and "minorities" but passe as hell to sympathise with any of those that we're attuned to viewing as the rulers of the modern world.
Like I said at the start of this thread, I think it's a misleading generalisation to say "Christians are the most persecuted people in the world" because it implies that all Christians are persecuted and that is a fallacy. It would be far more representative to consider it in the context of the individual groups that fall under the umbrella of Christianity and which ones are actually being persecuted. Because otherwise, we're just fuelling the collective persecution complex - which has less to do with combating persecution and more to do with giving a demographic an ego trip. To my mind, it's just reaffirming conservative patriarchal values, which I think are counter-productive in wider society.
 
Well, if that's the case, then I think it's been an abject failure - it's come across as someone shouting "PAY ATTENTION TO US!!".


Like I said at the start of this thread, I think it's a misleading generalisation to say "Christians are the most persecuted people in the world" because it implies that all Christians are persecuted and that is a fallacy. It would be far more representative to consider it in the context of the individual groups that fall under the umbrella of Christianity and which ones are actually being persecuted. Because otherwise, we're just fuelling the collective persecution complex - which has less to do with combating persecution and more to do with giving a demographic an ego trip. To my mind, it's just reaffirming conservative patriarchal values, which I think are counter-productive in wider society.
You overestimate my ability to think deeply. If I could condense my intentions for the OP it would be

Liberté, égalité, fraternité
 
Well, these are also zimbabwean farmers:

And here's a well-known Scot, just for interest.

tony_singh_1x1.jpg


As the reply was initially referencing white, male Christians the reference to Zimbabwean farmers seemed obvious... at least to anyone who was familiar with the recent (and ongoing) reclamations.

Do you have any comment to make in reference to their persecution or are we still at the "omg national stereotypes aren't always correct" stage? ;)
 
What I'm not seeing in this thread is "True, we need to make sure we don't forget about those guys".

Like I said at the start of this thread, I think it's a misleading generalisation to say "Christians are the most persecuted people in the world" because it implies that all Christians are persecuted and that is a fallacy.

Are we reading the same sentence? What a ridiculous conclusion.

But who am I to argue, since.....

The cynic in me wonders if it is not intentionally so, since every Christian that I know enjoys more opportunity than any other demographic in my country, and none of them have any fear of persecution.
.... reverse engineering via your logic, Christians must therefore be the least persecuted people in the world, right?

I think that there's pretty much people you're focused on protecting, and people you're figuratively willing to step right over. No surprise that those "morals" align with what's fashionable in a contemporary "liberal" society.

It's a bit like........ "I'm not a bigot, but..." - Everyone holds breath, ready to pounce - "Christians suck" - Phew, what a relief. I thought that they were going to say something offensive.
 
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.... reverse engineering via your logic, Christians must therefore be the least persecuted people in the world, right?
Reverse engineering is a lot like backmasking. If you listen to "Stairway to Heaven" backwards, you may or may not hear a pledge to Satan. Likewise, if you try and reverse engineer a statement, it's easy to spin it however you want. So here's a radical idea - try reading it forwards.

So that there can be no doubt, let me say it plainly - I care about the persecution of anyone who is persecuted. But if one part of society expects preferential treatment because of their association with a persecuted minority, they are actually doing far more harm to their supposed cause than the good they think they are doing.
 
As @TenEightyOne suggested, the reference was really very obvious. That you didn't, or chose not to see it might lean me towards thinking that you are hip and very kitsch cool, and not at all passe.

In context, this.....

..... looks like quite chilling really.

A Farmer's Last Moment - Death by Hoe..... and not the titillating version of that.

It was a sloppy reference, and I'm not questioning wether or not it was obvious, I'm questioning the claim that a zimbabwean farmer is a white, christian male.

Also, why do you care for the white minority in Zimbabwe? Are you one of those hip kitsch cool and not at all passe kids?

And here's a well-known Scot, just for interest.

View attachment 348127

As the reply was initially referencing white, male Christians the reference to Zimbabwean farmers seemed obvious... at least to anyone who was familiar with the recent (and ongoing) reclamations.

Do you have any comment to make in reference to their persecution or are we still at the "omg national stereotypes aren't always correct" stage? ;)

Looks like a nice guy.

Yes, I do have a couple of comments.

1. It has never been about national stereotypes.

2. The white farmers had their lands taken away because they were white farmers, not because they were male or christian.

70% of Zimbabwe is christian, I find it hard to believe that religion had anything to do with it. I also don't believe Robert Mugabe is such an extreme feminist that he believes it's wrong of men to own property.

Much of the land was originally taken from black farmers by the white farmers so it's debatable wether or not they were the rightful owners.
 
The parts bolded only - notice I didn't highlight his positive slant to Christianity.

Just those three, negative observations
That wasn't even remotely clear.

So what you are effectively saying is that you believe that negative comments about Christianity is given a free pass and negative comments about Islam and Judaism make headlines as being unfair, and your making that extrapolation to the 'western world' and mainly the UK and US?

If that's the case then no I don't agree (however what and how much coverage it gets will depend on what sources you are using).



If you're white, Christian, and male.... life's good right? Yeah sure, just ask a Zimbawean farmer about it.
Given that the people instigating the attacks are 85% likely to also be Christian I don't really see what that has to do with the thread at all? It also ignores the fact that in farm invasions its not only the white farmers that are targeted, but in many cases also those who work for them (who are almost always black).

Much of the land was originally taken from black farmers by the white farmers so it's debatable wether or not they were the rightful owners.
Not true.

The vast majority of the land was uncultivated before the white farms were established and the end result of the move has not put land back into the hands of the black land workers at all.

Its put the land into the hands of the friends and political allies of the government.

It wasn't a race issue (but that was a nice card to be able to play) and it wasn't a religious issue, it was about land and who controls it and makes money from it (ironic as well).
 
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So what you are effectively saying is that you believe that negative comments about Christianity is given a free pass and negative comments about Islam and Judaism make headlines as being unfair
Yes
Scaff
and your making that extrapolation to the 'western world' and mainly the UK and US?
Yes
Scaff
If that's the case then no I don't agree (however what and how much coverage it gets will depend on what sources you are using).
Agree to disagree
 
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