Our silence on one of the most persecuted people in the world
- Thread starter KSaiyu
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KSaiyu
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I'm sorry I just saw this. My agenda? Why is there always this assumption of hidden agendas, it's tiresome.
Let's address it then:
US Department of State:
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/religiousfreedom/index.htm#wrapper
Spectator:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9041841/the-war-on-christians/
This is Malaysia:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/01/catholic-church-150121100311536.html
Kenya:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/12/bethany-blankley-christian-persecution-kenya-what-/
That's just a quick 10 minute search.
Britain is where myself and Scaff disagree but it is apparent to me that Christian identity is continually eroded over here. This story is pretty innocuous, but imagine the outcry if such an important religious occasion of any other religion was treated with such disrespect:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ing-Jesus-favour-Darth-Vader-Postman-Pat.html
Everything is up for lampooning when it comes to Christianity. As someone who believes in a secular society this should be not exclusive to one religion.
My agenda, plain and simple is to highlight that we don't treat all religions equally in my eyes. Not even close.
This is what I mean, I don't see it as rabid. I see the discussion shut downs when negativity is directed to other religions and races as more disturbing.
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- 7,575
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
This isn't a problem. Christianity dominated the west in older times, then people moved on from religion. They kept the holidays though. Everyone knows what Easter is and likes to celebrate it, but they don't care about the religious origin. I don't see how it's disrespect. Had Islam been the dominant religion, we might have seen Ramadan Vader.
I'll admit I'm kind of surprised they don't sell well enough to stock at all, but I can buy the low selling claim. I don't see many supermarkets around me selling muslim/Budist stuff. They have kosher food though.
KSaiyu
(Banned)
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It's not a problem if we are able to do it to all religions. Fact is we can't - you'd be slapped with a hate crime charge. I like your optimism about a Ramadan Vader but you have to look at Britain 2015 to realise we're nowhere close to the stage of taking the mick out of that religion.
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Scaff
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So it took less than ten minutes for you to find numerous news articles highlighting some of the issues of religious persecution around the globe, including Christianity and that illustrates under-reporting of christian persecution how?
I'm sorry but that's not Christian persecution at even the lowest level.
Is the church seriously claiming that it being persecuted because supermarkets make a choice of what product they sell based upon what the public will buy?
Now aside from the fact that decorated eggs as a symbol is not even Christian in origin what are you actually suggesting? That supermarkets be forced to stock this egg?
That's a piece by the Mail inferring persecution based upon the Churches inability to gain a privileged status (i.e. make companies stock their Easter Egg), which is not persecution at all.
I will be blunt any religion that looses its message based on its own inability to get its voice and message heard without being granted privileged status (which the CofE already has in the UK - how many Lords seats was it again - 26) then they have only themselves to hold at fault.
Its not.
And yet plenty of evidence seems to show that's not the case or that Christianity still has a privileged position in the west, or am I imagining those 26 seats in the Lords?
Have you watched any of the Fox news pieces on the War on Christianity or the War on Christmas? That's rabid defense.
What about Fox news coverage of Islam? Did you forget that this is the station that had a regular guest state that Birmingham (the entire city - the UK's second largest) was totally off limits to non-Muslims?
You have just posted a piece in which businesses taking perfectly reasonable and legal choices about what they stock is presented as persecution and don't see that as odd? Swap that for a symbol of Muslim or Jewish celebration and a demand that shops stock it and I think you would hold a very different view.
- 7,575
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
You can't ignore that Christianity has a thousand (or 2) year long history in the west. That's why there is an Easter Vader and not a Ramadan one. The Ramadan one will sell worse than the Church's stuff. Also if you want a Ramadan Vader, I guess the Charlie Hebdo stuff and various other depiction of Muhammed fall into that category.
Scaff
Moderator
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Yep you totally would not see any Muslims mixing religious symbols and festivals with novelty goods to sell stuff........
http://muslimtoysanddolls.com/index...ucts_id=2797&zenid=bgp73ijurp1b1t8qi1b5pbc7g6
...I've been in the Middle East for both Ramadan and Eid and the place is full of this kind of stuff.
And yes some Muslims do think this kind of thing is offensive, funnily enough a number of Christians think the same about the commercialization of Christian festivals.
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- Furinkazen_54
Yep you totally would not see any Muslims mixing religious symbols and festivals with novelty goods to sell stuff........
http://muslimtoysanddolls.com/index...ucts_id=2797&zenid=bgp73ijurp1b1t8qi1b5pbc7g6
...I've been in the Middle East for both Ramadan and Eid and the place is full of this kind of stuff.
And i've seen similar in Italy for Christianity in Loreto, one of the holiest places in europe (they claim).
Scaff
Moderator
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My new favorite.....
http://muslimtoysanddolls.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=96&zenid=bgp73ijurp1b1t8qi1b5pbc7g6
....the Salaam Alaikum doorbell.
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- Furinkazen_54
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- Neomone
No, because then you would have made a thread about all the religions that are underrepresented in the media.
You made one about Christianity. Which you happen to be a part of. How interesting.
You're here because you feel oppressed as a Christian. That is your agenda. You're trying to change the world one gaming forum at a time by convincing people that Christians worldwide really have it rough, and that they aren't getting the same protections that the Islamists and the Jews are.
Which 9 pages later, you're still yet to actually establish as factual.
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- jimipitbull
So if OP hasn't established factual basis, I assume it's ok to mention other persecuted peoples again?
-Down's syndrome
-Midgets/dwarfs/little people
(Either of which may or may not identify as Christian)
-Down's syndrome
-Midgets/dwarfs/little people
(Either of which may or may not identify as Christian)
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Except that it's not.
The OP just claimed to speak for all religions, but he isn't. I'm just pointing that out. He's speaking for Christianity.
I'm also pointing out that he hasn't established that Christianity is persecuted to the extent that he claims it is. If I were to say "Asians are one of the most persecuted races in the world, and people are too silent about this!", you might expect me to provide some evidence to validate that. Do Asians really have it worse than most? Are there specific circumstances under which they have it worse than most, or are we talking in general worldwide? Is there perhaps some reason for all this?
Without any of that, most people can't get past their initial response, which seems to mostly be "Really?" And rightly so, because in my own experience (which probably mirrors that of many people here) Christians don't really seem to be persecuted any more than any other religion. If there's evidence to prove otherwise, I'm happy to change my mind, but until then I'll trust my own perception rather than that of someone with an obvious reason to promote this idea.
I'm not saying that we should be having the discussion about other religions, which is what you're implying. I'm saying that if we're having it about Christianity, then the premise of the argument needs to be established factually first. Otherwise we get 9 pages of people arguing about whether Christians are really that persecuted, or whether the media is silent about it.
See my replies to Johnnypenso if you want more. I've gone through this several times now, because people don't seem to understand the basic framework necessary for discussion.
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In the context of my whole post I think it's fairly obvious that I'm pointing to what is "on trend" in humanitarian thinking, and that certain groups tend to be left to their own devices.
I didn't read through your link. Does it state a Christian percentage of attackers? Not that it matters really since people can and are persecuted from within their own religion, for religious reasons, but mainly because I'm making a broader point that I think is very relevant to the thread.
Scaff
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My link shows that the country is 85% Christian, which is why I said it's 85% likely that they are Christian. Not sure how you missed that, bit it's not a surprise given that I have already answered your next point and you have simply edited it out of the quote!
Now as you are infering that these attacks have a Christian secular basis to them, I'm sure you can provide citation to support that. Otherwise is would simply be a baseless claim to make.
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I think that faced with certain demographics in distress there's a knee-jerk "yeah but..." reaction. So in this thread we get a whole lot of scrutiny about who the MOST persecuted are, and a whole lot of other rubbish. and not much in the way of recognising that it's important to not overlook the ones who attract the stereotype of those that "have it good".
I know the son of a murdered Zimbabwean farmer, and have heard a "boots on the ground" perspective. I think that if you think there is no significant racial motivation in the situation that your attitude falls in the "yeah but..." category. If it's ultimately a government thing, that still very much does not preclude the situation from featuring widespread, severe, and deadly racism.
KSaiyu
(Banned)
- 2,822
Can I see the Mohammad doll figure please. The one that looks like the man.
Ah-ha! The plot thickens....
Who said I'm a Christian
Your argument (a typical Left one may I add of assuming things that are untrue) is in danger of unravelling when I reveal what I think about Christians and how self-righteous they can be (perhaps more than any of the other faiths). On my trip to the Mosque, do you know who the second most annoying person I encountered was? You can be sure he doesn't pray towards Mecca....
Would you like me to continue?
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Scaff
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I don't believe that anyone has overlooked the suffering of any group that is being persecuted at all, however given the topic of the thread the don't come close to the meeting that criteria. That was the point I was making, not that we should overlook the suffering of any group.
My wife has family in Zimbabwe and I work with a girl whose family ran a farm in Zimbabwe, so yes I am aware of the situation 'on the ground', however none of that changes the situation that the land grabs were not solely a racial motivation or a religious one (sectarian or otherwise). I would not even put white farmers as the most persecuted group in Zimbabwe, that position would belong to opponents of the government, which while it does include many white farmers is a much larger group than them alone.
Which you know full well will not exist, however that was not the claim you were making. No chance of a Ramadan Vader was the claim you made I believe (not even close was the qualifier added), which reads to me a lot like a claim that Islamic religious holidays don't attract 'novelty' goods and can't be used as a way of adding a 'tacky' promotion on the back of a religious holiday (you know the way Easter eggs do).
The problem is that claim doesn't pass muster, given that novelty goods exist for both Ramadan....
http://www.zaufishan.co.uk/2011/08/get-fantastic-eco-ramadan-gifts-from.html
....and Eid....
http://www.thecakestore.co.uk/eid-mubarak-celebration-cake/#.VS19pfnF-So
...they are not exactly hard to find, and as I say the Middle East and North Africa have a ton of them before, during and after the festivals.
Now would you be so kind as to actually answer the questions I asked and address the valid point I raised (or do you need further examples of the fact that commercialization of Islamic holidays and Islam itself exists? As quite honestly as far as the category of 'religious based tat' goes the doorbell I would have hoped to be illustrative enough:
Is the church seriously claiming that it being persecuted because supermarkets make a choice of what product they sell based upon what the public will buy?
Now aside from the fact that decorated eggs as a symbol is not even Christian in origin what are you actually suggesting? That supermarkets be forced to stock this egg?
And yet plenty of evidence seems to show that's not the case or that Christianity still has a privileged position in the west, or am I imagining those 26 seats in the Lords?
Have you watched any of the Fox news pieces on the War on Christianity or the War on Christmas? That's rabid defense.
What about Fox news coverage of Islam? Did you forget that this is the station that had a regular guest state that Birmingham (the entire city - the UK's second largest) was totally off limits to non-Muslims?
You have just posted a piece in which businesses taking perfectly reasonable and legal choices about what they stock is presented as persecution and don't see that as odd? Swap that for a symbol of Muslim or Jewish celebration and a demand that shops stock it and I think you would hold a very different view.
squadops
(Banned)
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What about all that who de doo over halal? It seems to me there is much more to it then simple supply and demand, as in political and social pressures...
___________
The International Society for Human Rights, a secular observatory based in Germany, claims that 80% of all acts of religious discrimination in the world today are directed at Christians. If there numbers and research are accurate then it could be said "Christians are the most persecuted people among all religious people" right? I've seen plenty of other similar claims in news pieces along with statistics and numbers to back that up. That's not saying they are the most persecuted people in general though. How well it's reported in relation to other persecutions going on today I'm not sure, I don't notice it in the news all that often but I believe that to be because it doesn't sell.
The thread took a turn towards a subject I would call out of control PC rather than persecution, I do think that is happening today. Minority groups complaining about The Pledge of Allegiance in schools for example, or accepting religious cartoons of one sort but not of another, etc. It seems lopsided to me and similar to reverse discrimination. I don't see how that's going to be proven though. Many stories in the news can be factually reported without adding a religious aspect, sometimes it's stressed and other times it's ignored. Again, it's whatever sells.
Perhaps the fact that Christianity is large and ingrained in the culture here, the need to always bring it up is diminished. Usually the one who screams the loudest is most likely to be heard regardless how large that group may be, also prosperity has a way of smoothing the ship.
___________
The International Society for Human Rights, a secular observatory based in Germany, claims that 80% of all acts of religious discrimination in the world today are directed at Christians. If there numbers and research are accurate then it could be said "Christians are the most persecuted people among all religious people" right? I've seen plenty of other similar claims in news pieces along with statistics and numbers to back that up. That's not saying they are the most persecuted people in general though. How well it's reported in relation to other persecutions going on today I'm not sure, I don't notice it in the news all that often but I believe that to be because it doesn't sell.
The thread took a turn towards a subject I would call out of control PC rather than persecution, I do think that is happening today. Minority groups complaining about The Pledge of Allegiance in schools for example, or accepting religious cartoons of one sort but not of another, etc. It seems lopsided to me and similar to reverse discrimination. I don't see how that's going to be proven though. Many stories in the news can be factually reported without adding a religious aspect, sometimes it's stressed and other times it's ignored. Again, it's whatever sells.
Perhaps the fact that Christianity is large and ingrained in the culture here, the need to always bring it up is diminished. Usually the one who screams the loudest is most likely to be heard regardless how large that group may be, also prosperity has a way of smoothing the ship.
squadops
(Banned)
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I can't remember what year the report cited is from, 2012 I'm thinking. I don't think the English version of their webpage helps much but here are a few links if you feel like dealing with the Language.
I did a search for Christian in their archives and this list came out.
http://www.igfm.de/index.php?id=37&tx_kesearch_pi1[sword]=christen+80&x=13&y=15&tx_kesearch_pi1[page]=1&tx_kesearch_pi1[resetFilters]=0&tx_kesearch_pi1[sortByField]=&tx_kesearch_pi1[sortByDir]=
I think this is their homepage.
http://www.igfm.de/
A current pdf report on Christians
http://www.igfm.de/fileadmin/igfm.d...ll/IGFM-Verfolgte-Christen-aktuell-2014-1.pdf
etc.
edit, I'll add a few more links depending how long I mess around on the site, this is a good read.
http://www.igfm.de/themen/religionsfreiheit/christenverfolgung/
Someone asked about the percent of Christians persecuted, I know it's only one source but here it is, and that's enough of this webpage for me lol.
I did a search for Christian in their archives and this list came out.
http://www.igfm.de/index.php?id=37&tx_kesearch_pi1[sword]=christen+80&x=13&y=15&tx_kesearch_pi1[page]=1&tx_kesearch_pi1[resetFilters]=0&tx_kesearch_pi1[sortByField]=&tx_kesearch_pi1[sortByDir]=
I think this is their homepage.
http://www.igfm.de/
A current pdf report on Christians
http://www.igfm.de/fileadmin/igfm.d...ll/IGFM-Verfolgte-Christen-aktuell-2014-1.pdf
etc.
edit, I'll add a few more links depending how long I mess around on the site, this is a good read.
http://www.igfm.de/themen/religionsfreiheit/christenverfolgung/
Someone asked about the percent of Christians persecuted, I know it's only one source but here it is, and that's enough of this webpage for me lol.
http://www.igfm.de/ne/?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=1965&cHash=c82d82337f381748a1e2ae8f41cd249c
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KSaiyu
(Banned)
- 2,822
So it's commercialisation with a caveat. Hardly equal.
I'm a business-owner in North West London. I want to sell plush dolls of Mohammad during Eid as I think they'll be quite popular with non-Muslims.
Allowed?
Is my life thereafter safe?
I'm suggesting that there is no equivalent defender of the Christian faith as there is for the other 2 being discussed, and no homeland. The Jews have Israel and the ADL. Muslims have the Middle East, parts of Africa and parts of Asia plus whatever Muslim concern body is in whatever country (here we have a few, MCB being one of the most prominent.) Christians seem to have the Daily Mail and Fox News?Scaff
Britain as we know it was founded as a Christian country. Of course we are going to have a majority Christian make up of a lot of institutions, which I imagine will decrease as the grip of the religion on Britain continues to cease. Will this happen in Israel or Saudi Arabia/Qatar/Indonesia/Pakistan/Yemen/Somalia/Nigeria/U.A.E/everywhere with a Muslim majority?Scaff
Not yet, but I'm guessing it's similar to The Times with Jews and The Guardian with Muslims.Scaff
From what I remember during my time watching Fox News facts were never their priority.Scaff
It's only parts of Birmingham:
Vue apologises after families 'barred from cinema for not being Muslim'
Yeah it would be progress.Scaff
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What I want is the ability to complain, make fun of and make money off all religions equally. We are secular after all.
Consider this - at the moment my biggest grievances with people from two religionsthis month so far have been:
Christians: Passing bloody Jehovah's Witnesses every day on my way to University, being told not to bring up staffing levels at Ward Meetings even though they have an effect on patient safety (money is more important than caring for your neighbour it seems), and (cheating here since it was end of March) an Evangelical who wouldn't leave me alone.
Muslims: Neighbours who park on my lawn to unload their belongings, my hospital placement partner who left me high and dry and is now asking me to forge our logbooks together and a HCA at work who garnered 3 serious complaints in one day, and has cried religious and sexual discrimination to dodge further action and I have no idea if she's done either about me since I was approached by one of the patient's family's to provide a statement.
You can guess which group is causing me considerably more stress, and you can guess which group I could complain about and bring their religion into it.
"Damn Christians, always spouting about how often they go to Mass and sending their kids to Sunday School but can't put their money where their mouth is"
"Damn Muslims, always bringing their outdated culture with them and making my life a misery at home/work/university"
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- 2,851
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@Scaff @eran0004 @prisonermonkeys
Ultimately I've been addressing the "silence" part of the thread topic, and the kind of attitude that I believe cultivates that silence. In that context, post #222 says what I want to say, and the Zimbabwean farmer comment need not be scrutinised the way it has been, as my commentary is primarily on the way that I perceive the "world's" reaction to it.
Ah, see I wasn't necessarily thinking of "most" as the highest number in this thread. To take it to a silly extreme - if redheads were 80% of the world's population and every one of them had been called a derogatory name, I wouldn't consider them more persecuted over a 5% population demographic that was being bashed for having another point of difference.
Ultimately I've been addressing the "silence" part of the thread topic, and the kind of attitude that I believe cultivates that silence. In that context, post #222 says what I want to say, and the Zimbabwean farmer comment need not be scrutinised the way it has been, as my commentary is primarily on the way that I perceive the "world's" reaction to it.
Ah, see I wasn't necessarily thinking of "most" as the highest number in this thread. To take it to a silly extreme - if redheads were 80% of the world's population and every one of them had been called a derogatory name, I wouldn't consider them more persecuted over a 5% population demographic that was being bashed for having another point of difference.
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Who said I'm a Christian
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/do-you-believe-in-god.111312/page-12#post-3243544
Come on man, it's the internet. That took me all of thirty seconds. If you're going to attempt to lie, at least make a decent effort. You may not call yourself a Christian, but you obviously at the very least identify with them strongly. As long as you talk like a Christian, swim like a Christian and quack like a Christian then I'm going to label you as a Christian, no matter what labels you want to try and put on yourself.
You can call yourself the Dalai Lama for all I care, but as long as you behave like a Christian you might as well be one.
Why would that be so? Many of the Christian denominations take pretty dim views of the other denominations.
Besides, it'd take a strong measure of ignorance to try and deny that Christians can be self-righteous. We can start with the evidence in this thread.
So, your argument is that because one Christian that you met was annoying, that means that you couldn't possibly be waving a flag for Christianity?
I've met hundreds of annoying atheists, but that doesn't say anything about whether I'm an atheist or not. Hell, I think Richard Dawkins is mostly a pompous, arrogant ass. Doe that mean that I can't possibly be an atheist?
I don't see how you think that this statement proves anything.
Please do, it's quite amusing.
