Ovals VS Road Courses

[Ardius]

Why would truth (fact) be necessary for an oxymoron?

Let us all just act naturally, almost exactly as a dove feathered raven, and make no more peaceful war with one another, for none of us is a damned saint, nor an honorable villain.

I think we can move on to double entendres now.

I guess because what is an oxymoron to you might not be an oxymoron to me. I wouldn't throw the word around personally because I'm rather cautious of the complicated nature of the english language and its many multitudes of interpretation. A place where objectiveness and subjectiveness meet and become rather confusing.

I'm acting naturally, I'm having a rational and so far intelligent argument, I see no need to end it yet other than that its a tad off topic.
I just feel I need to get my head around IsmokeGT's opinion, as long as we don't resort to insults. 👍

I didn't say that, nor have I heard much of what you say "people" have said about her. All I've heard lately is people expecting her NOT to do well in NASCAR (go figure).

Well then, here's what it boils down to. As I said, what I consider over-rated is my opinion, and its based off what I have heard, read and understand. Nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything wrong with your opinion, I am perfectly open to hear what more people think about it but in my experience so far, she has gotten a lot of fanfare and I have started to get the feeling some are going too far with their praise.
I don't know what else you want me to say on the matter really, its not a right and wrong argument, just a difference of opinion and I explained my reasoning to it.

I was never aiming my comments at you and never said so, I was merely commenting I dislike those that were over-rating her and how it negatively effects what some of them think they are doing.

 

[IsmokeGT]

Why would truth (fact) be necessary for an oxymoron?

Usually does not indicate truth (fact), since an oxymoron is a mixing of contradictory words, Fact (indicating truth) and Usually (an amibiguous word not indicating truth) combined is an oxymoron.

I guess because what is an oxymoron to you might not be an oxymoron to me. I wouldn't throw the word around personally because I'm rather cautious of the complicated nature of the english language and its many multitudes of interpretation. A place where objectiveness and subjectiveness meet and become rather confusing.

I'm acting naturally, I'm having a rational and so far intelligent argument, I see no need to end it yet other than that its a tad off topic.
I just feel I need to get my head around IsmokeGT's opinion, as long as we don't resort to insults. 👍



Well then, here's what it boils down to. As I said, what I consider over-rated is my opinion, and its based off what I have heard, read and understand. Nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything wrong with your opinion, I am perfectly open to hear what more people think about it but in my experience so far, she has gotten a lot of fanfare and I have started to get the feeling some are going too far with their praise.
I don't know what else you want me to say on the matter really, its not a right and wrong argument, just a difference of opinion.

Most of what I've heard lately is how she is NOT going to do great in NASCAR, or atleast it will be very tough for her.

To be honest, I don't watch much TV, nor do I read the dreadful newspapers. You are probably more educated on people talking about her than me. But from what I've heard about her, it is usually a mix of good and bad.

 

[Ardius]

I actually base a lot of my opinion off the internet admittedly for this, newspapers, TV and so on in the UK to my knowledge have possibly never even printed the words "Danica Patrick" anywhere.

But from the various opinions on forums (yes I know, not a good place to work out average opinion) I have read, the news articles and opinions of other racing drivers I do get the feeling she is sort of bring glorified a little bit.

Its good to know that not everyone praises her so, but I already guessed not everyone does, I just hadn't see as much shall we say, measured praise. Or perhaps I have just read too much praise or myself overlooked those being critical. Or perhaps I'm worrying ahead of what is actually happening.

 

[TouringDevotee]

Usually does not indicate truth (fact), since an oxymoron is a mixing of contradictory words, Fact (indicating truth) and Usually (an amibiguous word not indicating truth) combined is an oxymoron.

Sorry, I was reading too fast again... I either missed "usually", or rewrote it in my head. That's what I get for not quoting.

 

[A2K78]

Not to mention over-rated is an opinion and an oxymoron is usually a factual thing...

I applaud Danica for what she has done, my intention was not to downplay her achievements. I dislike those who defend her so starchly in the name of women for motorsport though and believe most of the talk about her is because she is a woman.
The view that "at least she's somewhat good" doesn't justify the backwards ideal, that itself is the problem.

Danica in my opinion is an overratted and crappy driver. In fact all the praise she have been getting is really unwarranted.

Overall I hate it when these teams invest in women drivers(and riders) just because they are women rather than the fact they are championship material, something Danica clearly isn't and I don't call one win at Motegi even significant. In fact this why I'm glad USF1GP turn her down...

 

[A2K78]

Some people rate Danica so high they wonder why she hasn't got an F1 seat yet, best thing since sliced bread and all that. Make up all kinds of excuses for her lack of wins and so on.

Danica is nothing but marketing material for the IRL and Andretti Green, but take that way and she's really nothing, not even a champion.

speaking of, this well demonstrate how I feel about Danica as a race:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/220919-danica-patrick-everything-thats-wrong-with-motorsports

 

[eSZee]

she's borderline attractive and that aspect of her was supposed to bring new fans to motorsports. Can't say whether it worked or not but props to her for being one woman among many men.

 

[Ferrari_Tifoso]

Danica Patrick...I'm not sure how good she really is, her team is the 3rd best team in the IRL right now and none of her teammates are doing much of anything themselves.

Many drivers have failed in the transition to NASCAR so if Danica fails I dont think it says much about her skill as an openwheel driver.



Ovals have plenty of people in the infield as well.

Indianapolis has 250,000 permanent seats, but I have seen estimates of 100-150,000 people being in the infield as well. The infield is pretty big, it even has a golf course built inside it. Daytona's infield even has a manmade lake inside of it that was used to build the banking.

Nothing can touch oval racing attendance. You can add those in the infield of roadcourses but there are thousands in the infield of almost every oval. The ring and lemans may come close but Indy will humble both every time

I'm sure if you build 500,000 seats around Silverstone, and sell tickets at the same price point as the Indy 500, you would get 500,000 Brits to show up for the British GP. Just because Ovals can physically hold a lot of seats doesn't mean jack. Most road courses by their nature cannot physically hold hundreds of thousands of seats. TV coverage would suffer and access to these circuits is often limited to one or two small roads. If this is a popularity contests though, F1 (road racing) kills all. End of story.

 

[IsmokeGT]

You really think 1 out of every 120 people in the entire UK would go to a car race? I doubt that.

 

[garybee]

How can people be trying to use event spectator figures to justify track 'bias' in a computer game?

Yes, oval racing generates good numbers of spectators, It's designed to do just that. A large percentage of the track can be seen from most of the stands, which just isn't the case with the overwhelming majority of road courses.

This doesn't mean that you should include lots of ovals in a game however.

 

[opendriver]

I know its completely impractical, but it would be kinda cool to have a dirt oval:

 

[IsmokeGT]

Give us a board track while you're at it, PD.
And the real Daytona, the Beach!

 

[LSX]

I'd be down for dirt ovals and sprint cars. Stupid big wings, Nascar horsepower and turn right to go left. That way everyone wins

 

[IsmokeGT]

I'd be down for dirt ovals and sprint cars. Stupid big wings, Nascar horsepower and turn right to go left. That way everyone wins

Well said! I think a GT quality Sprint car game would be great fun. That discipline sets the boys apart from the men.

 

[Northstar]

I'd be down for dirt ovals and sprint cars. Stupid big wings, Nascar horsepower and turn right to go left. That way everyone wins

I could already hear the online conversations.

P1: How do you get such good times?
P2: I know how to take the turns.
P1: Any tips?
P2: Turn left
P1: What?
P2: Turn left to go right faster
P1: Screw this, I'm off to Suzuka

 

[Earth]

I'm sure if you build 500,000 seats around Silverstone, and sell tickets at the same price point as the Indy 500, you would get 500,000 Brits to show up for the British GP. Just because Ovals can physically hold a lot of seats doesn't mean jack. Most road courses by their nature cannot physically hold hundreds of thousands of seats. TV coverage would suffer and access to these circuits is often limited to one or two small roads.

British pay 150+ euro/pounds to watch that funeral procession? And where do you propose, if they could, build these 400,000 extra seats around the track that fans would want to watch the race from?

Silverstone from 1990. Looks like Indianapolis but with a chicane and a couple of worthless bends so they can call it a roadcourse.

If this is a popularity contests though, F1 (road racing) kills all. End of story.

Formula 1 is thinking about adding SHORTCUTS to produce passing



I doubt that "kills" all.

But wait, F1 has all the money, glamour and technology. Its so fascinating how teams like Toyota and BMW spend tens of millions of dollars for a midpack car

Of course there are great things about F1, but some people talk about it like its this god way up in the clouds that can't be touched and is flawless.

 

[Joey D]

For someone who seems to dog on the haters of NASCAR you sure put F1 down quite a bit. A bit of the old pot, kettle, black?

 

[Earth]

For someone who seems to dog on the haters of NASCAR you sure put F1 down quite a bit. A bit of the old pot, kettle, black?

The difference is they hate on something they dont know while ignoring the faults of their own favorite motorsport brand

I follow every motorsport and put down every motorsport so I cannot be accused calling the kettle black.

 

[Joey D]

You can think you portray yourself however you like, however comments like the ones in your previous post make you look no better then the people you are accusing of slagging on NASCAR. Perhaps if you wanted more people to see your view point of racing series like NASCAR you'd do a better job of seeing their view point of F1.

 

[Earth]

You can think you portray yourself however you like, however comments like the ones in your previous post make you look no better then the people you are accusing of slagging on NASCAR. Perhaps if you wanted more people to see your view point of racing series like NASCAR you'd do a better job of seeing their view point of F1.

People like Ferrari Tizio, what is their point of view of F1? That it is the god of racing and anything else is trash in comparision?

The day they watch an entire season of NASCAR, the qualifying, practice and race sessions and understand all the rules (as I do with F1 and a myriad of other motorsports) will be the day they see my point of view of NASCAR. That day won't happen.

In 2009 I watched 80% of the Sprint Cup races, 80% of the F1 races, the entire 24 hours of lemans, the entire 24 hours of the nurburgring, the entire 12 hours of sebring, the entire 24 horus of daytona, 70% of the Indycar races, 70% of th WSBK races, 50% of MotoGP, etc etc and I have been doing this for some time now.

I've had the opportunity to compete in and online Indianapolis 500 mile race, a 400 mile stock car race at a superspeedway and a 24 hours of lemans online race with 5 c0-drivers.

I think it's safe to say I have an even point of view when it comes to motorsports and can see both sides

What makes me at times lash out against F1 is the arrogance of it's fans who continually trash and nitpick at oval racing and the COT but accept or harmlessly laugh at Formula 1's current over sized looking go-karts that have snow plows for front wings or proposals like most wins crowning a champion or shortcuts to produce passing.

It goes well beyond the arrogance F1 has towards ovals. When Nigel Mansell moved to CART from F1 in '93 after winning the F1 crown in '92 he won the championship. Formula 1 fans claim this as proof as to how far F1 is ahead of CART (Indycar). Nobody mentions though Nigel mansell inherited Michael Andretti's car for '93. In '92 Michael Andretti had 7 poles and 5 wins. In '93, in Michael's car, Mansell had 7 poles and 5 wins. Yet Mansell had supposedly crushed the Indycar series drivers but the obvious truth was he just inherited the best car and only matched Andretti's stats yet on youtube and other websites and forums you will hear until no end about how Mansell made a laughing stock of CART (Indycar).

Formula 1 is the pinaccle of glamour, politics, money, and technology, but that's it, or at least that's it to any honest motorsport fan. But that's not entirely bad, being the pinnacle of technology has alot of merit

It's not the pinnacle of something I find far more important in motorsports and sports in general. Entertainment.

Your average F1/road racing fan wants to come here and talk about how boring oval racing is and how he will fall asleep racing it yet they are F1 fans and F1 doesn't exactly have the most exciting racing. But hey they turn right and left thats so exciting cant sit in my seat.

Now what about those ugly CoTs NASCAR uses, phantom debri cautions, any joe blow getting a ride in the IRL, the horrible 2009 Indy 500, ALMS' pathetic car count etc etc. See? I can jump on other motorsports as well, but it's the arrogance of the average F1 fan and in some cases driver (Schumacher) that I can't stand.

But that is not what this topic is about. This topic is about ovals vs roadcourses

The point is there are both boring oval and roadcourse races, I admit that but road racing fans, or at least most won't. Any roadcourse is great and more worthy then any oval in their eyes, which is again rediculous in my opinion.

But maybe I have an abnormality. Maybe the idea I like all forms of racing, except for rally racing (mostly do that its a race vs the clock and not on track competitiors) is not normal.

It's hard for me to understand how so called motorsport fans can like one type, oval or roadcourse, sportscar or openwheel, and hate the oither. Even I can see the allure, challenge, and attraction of rally racing and wouldn't mind running some of the races in GT5 especially if its executed right.

I dont know, there are some people who only like blondes and want nothing else. My family thinks of these people as shallow, but others say thats their choice. Hmm.

Well im tired of typing.

 

[Joey D]

And what I don't understand is people who lash out because people dislike NASCAR. I think it's incredibly boring to watch and just as boring to play in a game, in fact I think all oval racing is boring in a game. I have more fun with road courses, and even a poorly laid out road course is more fun than an oval to race on in my opinion. I think it's probably safe to say that a majority of GTP's GT owners and users would share that same sentiment based on forum topics.

If people hate ovals, NASCAR, whatever then I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to voice their opinions. It appears that a lot of the NASCAR fans seem to have no problem voicing their opinion on the matter when they even get a whiff of someone calling their beloved motorsport boring. You don't need knowledge of it to realise that it's boring to you. All I need to do is watch about 20 minutes of a NASCAR race to realise that it bores me to tears.

 

[IsmokeGT]

And what I don't understand is people who lash out because people dislike NASCAR.

Nobody cares if they dislike it, that is not the point. Talking bad about something, while being are ignorant on the subject, deserves some "lashing out".

Also, F1 is boring. Americans like competition, and maybe thats why are more inclined to like NASCAR, and not F1.

 

[Ardius]

The difference is they hate on something they dont know while ignoring the faults of their own favorite motorsport brand

I follow every motorsport and put down every motorsport so I cannot be accused calling the kettle black.

An eye for an eye makes everyone blind.

 

[subsonic]

Many people in Europe talks about Nascar without any idea, they think Nascar is boring, but i think Nascar is the best competition, at least, in Nascar, every driver can win, and in F1, only three or four.
I have to congratulate the USA people, cuz they have a big sport culture, football(NFL) , soccer, Nascar, F1, NHL, and more sports, and here in Europe, only F1 and football(socer).
I`m from Spain, and i dont like Nascar, I LOVE NASCAR!!!!

 

[Joey D]

Nobody cares if they dislike it, that is not the point. Talking bad about something, while being are ignorant on the subject, deserves some "lashing out".

And you just did the same thing.

Also, F1 is boring. Americans like competition, and maybe thats why are more inclined to like NASCAR, and not F1.

Look, I'm not defending F1, I don't like it, but I think it's ridiculous to say that people need to see the error in their ways when saying NASCAR is boring and then in the very next breathe someone calls F1 boring.

 

[F1 fan]

Dull is Catalunya.

You obviously didn't see the motogp at catalunya in 09.

But I agree. It can be pretty dull.

Maybe we should start wtching cricket, or soccer, and maybe we will understand what is really exciting.

Tell me about it. I hate football (soccer) and I don't even understand cricket. As it happens, I quite like American football, basketball, Ice hockey (used to play) and baseball.

But at the end of the day, there's no substitute for a great race. I was never the biggest Nascar fan. In the UK, it's edited into a highlights programme and shown in the middle of the night. But I'm really starting to get there. I like Indycar as well. Still prefer Formula 1, Touring Cars, Sportscars, ALMS, Le Mans etc, but I'm really starting to appreciate American Racing.

Schumacher is over-rated and he is better than a lot of drivers. As was/is Senna.

Blasphemy...

I'm kidding. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but Schuey is God (IMHO).

Danica in my opinion is an overratted and crappy driver. In fact all the praise she have been getting is really unwarranted.

Overall I hate it when these teams invest in women drivers(and riders) just because they are women rather than the fact they are championship material, something Danica clearly isn't and I don't call one win at Motegi even significant. In fact this why I'm glad USF1GP turn her down...

USF1 turned her down? Last I heard she ruled out going to F1 because of her friends and family. She said something about being happy where she is... Or does the plot thicken?

Formula 1 is thinking about adding SHORTCUTS to produce passing

That's just another one of Bernie Ecclestons' ridiculous ideas. It'll never happen as the teams will veto it. As for F1, they should look at the cars from the late 80's, early 90's for inspiration when proposing aero regulations. That would increase overtaking (and make it a hell of a lot cheaper).

The day they watch an entire season of NASCAR, the qualifying, practice and race sessions and understand all the rules (as I do with F1 and a myriad of other motorsports) will be the day they see my point of view of NASCAR. That day won't happen.

Watch a whole season of Nascar in a day? That would be a long ass day.

#354

Many people in Europe talks about Nascar without any idea, they think Nascar is boring, but i think Nascar is the best competition, at least, in Nascar, every driver can win, and in F1, only three or four

Actually, pretty much every driver in F1 is capable of a win in the right circumstances. It's the same with Nascar. Look at Vettel in monza 08. A totally deserving win in a crap car. Would it have been the same if he hadn't put in his qualifying lap at the perfect time? No.

He then dominated in the race. Now maybe that's a bad example using a driver of Vettel's calibre (Vettel for Champion '10 ). How about Markus Winkelhock leading in Germany in 07? He threw it away, and to be fair had a terrible car, but anything can happen in F1... Olivier Panis in Monaco? Kovalainen got lucky at Hungary in 08.

 

[bullie77]

and here in Europe, only F1 and football(socer).

Don't take your personal views and apllied them as portrait of the european.

I agree that US have a great tradition on sports and they're masters in getting the best out of it and sell it to the public as it is meant to be - a sport, spectacule and business! A quick look and NFL, NHL, MLB, NBA, NASCAR, etc... will comfirm it.

However Europe isn't only F1 and Football, although in fact football is king. But Rugby, Basketball, athletics, Rally, DTM, WTCC/ETCC, all have a big impact in their specific markets

 

[WolfRacer543]

Many people in Europe talks about Nascar without any idea, they think Nascar is boring, but i think Nascar is the best competition, at least, in Nascar, every driver can win, and in F1, only three or four.
I have to congratulate the USA people, cuz they have a big sport culture, football(NFL) , soccer, Nascar, F1, NHL, and more sports, and here in Europe, only F1 and football(socer).
I`m from Spain, and i dont like Nascar, I LOVE NASCAR!!!!

Europe must be a bloody boring place if the only sport is soccer I'm from lil' ol' Australia and there's a hell of alot more to our sporting culture than just 1 physical sport and 1 motorsport, I'm sure Europe is the same and you are just exaggerating.

After the past few pages I can see the merit in oval racing as a spectator sport... however motor racing in general isn't really a big spectator sport so you can't really compare different disciplines based off that. I love motorsports but I've only been a spectator to a handful of races in my life, most of which I found boring. Drag racing is more entertaining than most road racing. Does that make drag racing a better or bigger form of racing?

I still dont see the point in arguing oval seating capacity and attendance as anything related to why ovals should be in GT5. Attendance at live events does not equal popularity world wide or enjoyment in a game. Aussie rules football has one of the biggest ovals in the world, the MCG, and for several games a year its packed. If you added up over the coarse of a weekend the number of people attending AFL matches, it'd add up to as much if not more than show up to a NASCAR event even when the stadium is packed. What's the significance of that? Well, not a hell of a lot. AFL is a local game, I doubt too many people across the oceans would give a damn that there's a couple of hundred thousand people attending games each weekend (not including those watching at home).

At the same Aussie ground you have cricket being played and for certain events the ground would have 100, 000 (like the boxing day test match if playing against a big side), which is a lot considering Australia only has 10% the population of the USA. But my god cricket is a boring game. Some how it still draws a crowd.

Basically my point is crowd size and local appeal does not equal fun in games or world wide interest.

 

[Sam48]

NASCAR- consists of mostly ovals, 2 road courses- 1st to 2nd- about .8 sec- field 43 cars
F1- consists of all road courses- 1st-2nd- about 26 sec- field 22 cars

From what I can tell, you guys are comparing apples and oranges.

 

[djanikowski]

NASCAR- consists of mostly ovals, 2 road courses- 1st to 2nd- about .8 sec- field 43 cars
.

At Daytona and Talladega, it's more like 1st to 43rd- 1.2 seconds