Ovals VS Road Courses

[IsmokeGT]

A large amount of people sit in the infield during the oval races as well.

You can tell non-Americans all day long how big NASCAR really is, but very few really comprehend the magnitude of this sport in America. You can show non-Americans the closest finishes, side by side racing for laps on end, and pretty much anything one could ask for in a motorsport, and they will reply "it is boring".

Maybe we should start wtching cricket, or soccer, and maybe we will understand what is really exciting.

 

[Ardius]

Ardius- "I don't think its as easy to stand at the side of the track and watch."
No you can't stand by the fence and watch Nascar races, I can't vouch for IRL. The workers will move you back from the fence, but people mob the fence at the start finish sometimes. You can however, walk slowly close to the fence, allll the way down the track, and as long as you are attempting to move, they don't bother you. Last year at the Bud Shootout in Daytona, they could not possibly have move us all away from the fence, besides they are usually watching themselves at that point. No one sits down at a Nascar race anyhow. Unless it goes green for way too long. But in my experience, seats are more for holding your beer.

My point was just that I don't think you are filling the circuits beyond the seating (correct me if I'm wrong, I imagine there must be some) whereas there are areas in circuit racing where people don't even pay tickets! (so analysing ticket prices would be irrelevant).
You can also fit more people into an open space of grass than packing them into a stadium with set seats.

But whatever, I digress. I wasn't trying to argue against NASCAR being popular, just the argument of seating being a fairly flat one.

 

[Emu76]

I would love to see Cadwell Park in the game, I live just a few miles away so I go there occassionally. Since it was used to train the GT Academy winners last year, I think it could have an outside chance...

 

[LSX]

My point was just that I don't think you are filling the circuits beyond the seating (correct me if I'm wrong, I imagine there must be some) whereas there are areas in circuit racing where people don't even pay tickets! (so analyzing ticket prices would be irrelevant).
You can also fit more people into an open space of grass than packing them into a stadium with set seats.

But whatever, I digress. I wasn't trying to argue against NASCAR being popular, just the argument of seating being a fairly flat one.

I wasn't trying to argue that it was. I guess I misunderstood what you meant by standing. I wasn't even arguing .

 

[Earth]

Yeah, oval tracks have big seating capacity because there's a high number of crashes in a small area for all to see

If a sport is all about the crashes I dont think it could go very far. However I wont deny that the crashes on ovals are a part of oval racing's allure, as they are in any motorsport.

When Kubrick had his crash at Montreal was it not posted all over youtube by road racing fans and talked about to no end here at the forums, perhaps even more so then Carl Edward's much more severe wreck in NASCAR last year?

But also you can build thousands of seats at a circuit, doesn't mean its necessarily a popular track. Like I said, Shanghai and Istanbul are the best examples, thousands of seats and no one there, really popular, eh?

7 of the 9 ovals in the top 15 in seating attendances are among NASCAR's best tracks in terms of racing quality and popularity. Texas and Las Vegas produce mediocre racing but they manage to pull in big crowds for some reason. The two 2.5 mile superspeedways, Daytona and Talladega, Dover, Lowes, Bristol, Michigan and Indy all have great racing and are worthy of their large stadium seating.

However I only see two roadcourses in the top 15, Nurburgring and Suzuka, which appear to be great tracks that are worthy of the seating numbers while the majority of hte ovals in the top 15 in seating are some of the very best the oval world has to offer. Just ask any NASCAR/oval fan if anybody doubts me.

You want to use ticket sales or, even better, tv ratings if you're going to start arguing popularity. But I really don't see the point, popularity doesn't prove quality and those that think oval racing is rubbish are probably not going to be simply convinced like that.

I'm not trying to convince someone who thinks ovals are rubbish, it would be like trying to convince someone who hates soccer or american football otherwise. Usually doesnt happen.

The attendance figures are there to show them that some people do enjoy oval racing so its appearance in GT5 is not misguided. The information was mainly for those who think only those in the United States will be able to keep awoke through an oval race which are usually the same types who think baseball, ice hockey, and basketball is only played in the United States.

Formula 1 races worldwide, but even it is centered in Europe as in the case of both drivers, teams, and circuits. The World Rally Championship has 9 of it's 13 races in Europe, with just 4 being outside of Europe. By comparision the Indycar series has 13 of its 17 races in the United States, but has 2 races in Canada, 1 in Brazil, and 1 in Japan.

Also, more international drivers are moving into NASCAR. An Italian, Australian and Columbian routinely qualify for NASCAR Sprint Cup (the premier level) races. In 2010 a Brazilian may also be on the starting lineup. It should be noted the Australian is Marcos Ambrose, a two time Australian V8 Supercar champion, the Columbian is Juan Montoya, everyone knows him, the Italian is Max Papis who has a very long openwheel career with a brief sports car career and the Brazilian may be Nelson Piquet Jr.

Jacques Villeneuve had tried to get into NASCAR which would have added a Canadien to the roster but has failed to qualify for races and eventually lost a ride. The same with fellow canadien openwheel aces Paul Tracy and Patrick Carpentier. NASCAR-rejects, I guess.

In the NASCAR thread at this very forum there are a number of fans outside the United States who regularly follow the series and who are happy about NASCAR in GT5.

The many people who come into this thread and others who talk about how they'll fall asleep while racing an oval dont bother me as I know they've never truly experienced a proper oval race. If they've only seen and been through the proper oval races in NASCAR 2003 I've have they would at the very least respect it but they haven't so they don't. Thus people fear and hate what they dont understand. I would go as far to say that I think your average NASCAR fan/driver has more knowledge of F1 then your average F1 fan/driver has of NASCAR. You may say well thats because nobody cares about NASCAR.

That's just fine, but dont judge a book by its cover.

 

[TouringDevotee]

This argument is still brewing...hope it makes a good cup.

I like Silverstone, it isn't poop. It's very damn flat, but you don't have to slow down to a crawl for the turns.

 

[LSX]

Vettel is interested in a future in Nascar. I think the article was on autosport or something. Because Nascar is "interesting" I think it was.

Trulli tested, I don't know how far he will take that.

 

[MatskiMonk]

In the NASCAR thread at this very forum there are a number of fans outside the United States who regularly follow the series and who are happy about NASCAR in GT5.

I help to run a Juan Montoya fan forum, we have fans (that were drawn to NASCAR by the appeal of JPM) from all around the world, 25 different nations at the moment. Many, including some of the admins, were distraught when Monty announced the switch to NASCAR, but the majority gave it a chance, and many came to appriciate, respect, and enjoy the sport.

I just hope that if the 42 is modelled in the game that the pitlane speed trap works properly

 

[IsmokeGT]

Who cares about Vettle, Papis, and Ambrose?! I sure don't.

Two names- Danica Patrick and Ricky Carmichael are both merging into NASCAR.

 

[LSX]

I was just pointing out that even F1's golden boy would like a chance to sort himself out in a stock car...


I bet 95% chance Danica won't even finish the ARCA race in Daytona, regardless of her fault or not. Carmichael is working on it though, he was not horrible in the trucks last season.

Edit: I care about Ambrose... He is showing the most out of any of the transplants aside from JPM.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Sebastian Vettel... could be Joey Logano's German cousin!

 

[McLaren]

A large amount of people sit in the infield during the oval races as well.

I didn't say they didn't, but tbh, I'm sure the numbers aren't matching Le Mans which is stating the obvious when you look at the size & room between the 2.

Either way, my point was merely that seats don't account for the actual number of attendees.

 

[Ardius]

Vettle is interested in a future in Nascar. I think the article was on autosport or something. Because Nascar is "interesting" I think it was.

Trulli tested, I don't know how far he will take that.

Vettel btw not Vettle

I can easily see Trulli in NASCAR after F1, I haven't ever seen him do anything anywhere else like sportscars or touring cars (like most ex-f1 drivers) so its highly likely he will move there after helping establish Lotus. He seemed to enjoy his test and siad that it really catered for his driving style.

I think Danica gets way too much fanfare, in my opinion she is having a further negative impact on women because she is fast becoming over-rated ironically by people who are supportive of women in motorsport. Its perfectly admirable to support that ideal, however, some are taking it too far to the point that it almost seems like they are accidentally implying all women would be as average as her.

 

[LSX]

My mistake.

I'm not saying she will be less than average, I'm just saying jumping to Nationwide, even in limited amounts is got to be a little more than you should be biting off on your first go. At least run the Trucks or ARCA series first. But then again, Tony Stewart made it happen, so I guess it's a wait and see kind of thing.

 

[IsmokeGT]

I think Danica gets way too much fanfare, in my opinion she is having a further negative impact on women because she is fast becoming over-rated ironically by people who are supportive of women in motorsport. Its perfectly admirable to support that ideal, however, some are taking it too far to the point that it almost seems like they are accidentally implying all women would be as average as her.

So, a woman that does well in a sport, that is dominated by men, has a negative impact on woman? Perhaps you should explain this impact, because I have no idea what you are talking about.

Unless it is a sport that comes down to brute strength, woman are just as capable as men. If you hadn't noticed, she is not average in IRL, she does better than most of the guys.

Sarah Fisher also competes in IRL.
Angelle Sampey is a professional motorcycle drag racer.
Ashley Force is a Funny Car drag racer.
All four woman mentioned do well. Beyond the average man, for sure.

 

[Northstar]

Ashley Force is a Funny Car drag racer.
All four woman mentioned do well. Beyond the average man, for sure.

I think being favored for a championship is waaaaaaay beyond the average man.

Edit: I think he is also talking about how she can basically do no wrong no matter what she does. For instance if she crashes entering pit road it's never her fault.

 

[Ardius]

So, a woman that does well in a sport, that is dominated by men, has a negative impact on woman? Perhaps you should explain this impact, because I have no idea what you are talking about.

Unless it is a sport that comes down to brute strength, woman are just as capable as men. If you hadn't noticed, she is not average in IRL, she does better than most of the guys.

Sarah Fisher also competes in IRL.
Angelle Sampey is a professional motorcycle drag racer.
Ashley Force is a Funny Car drag racer.
All four woman mentioned do well. Beyond the average man, for sure.

No no no, I'm not talking about her achievements, I'm talking about how those achievements are percieved....did you not read the key word in my post - "fanfare"?

Indeed, Danica is better than a lot of drivers out there, but is extremely over-rated. This means she gains a reputation of being talked about but not really the results to match the talk. This not really her fault but ironically the fault of those who are somewhat blindly supporting her and talking her up beyond her actual potential.

In my opinion she is distinictly average in Indycar from what I've seen and read. Strong at ovals but nowhere on road courses. One win to her name and it was a lucky one. I'm sure like all drivers there is more to her skill than the stats show, but from what I know she is not a super talent and not the super-driver that women need to really get the ball rolling. Good but vastly over-rated.

Let me also say I have nothing against women in motorsport, I am supportive of it. But if people really want women to really get their chances, they should be a bit more sensible in their praise. There are several I am following including Alice Powell and Sarah Moore.
Its just people are making a big deal of average drivers purely because they are women, which is just as bad as those who deny good drivers because they are women.

 

[IsmokeGT]

Indeed, Danica is better than a lot of drivers out there, but is extremely over-rated.

Do you know what an oxymoron is? You perform this literary feat with ease.

 

[Ardius]

Do you know what an oxymoron is? You perform this literary feat with ease.

I do, but you do not.

Schumacher is over-rated and he is better than a lot of drivers. As was/is Senna.

 

[IsmokeGT]

Oxymoron- a combination of contradictory or incongruous words.
Schumacher+over rated = oxymoron
better than a lot + over rated = oxymoron

A beautiful woman who races cars well deserves a lot of attention, or fanfare as you put it. There are a ton of woman that get "fanfare" just for their looks, at least Danica is doing more than that.

Apparently, your definiton of "over-rated" is vastly different than mine. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Ardius]

Not to mention over-rated is an opinion and an oxymoron is usually a factual thing...

I applaud Danica for what she has done, my intention was not to downplay her achievements. I dislike those who defend her so starchly in the name of women for motorsport though and believe most of the talk about her is because she is a woman.
The view that "at least she's somewhat good" doesn't justify the backwards ideal, that itself is the problem.

 

[eSZee]

Oxymoron- a combination of contradictory or incongruous words.
Schumacher+over rated = oxymoron
better than a lot + over rated = oxymoron

A beautiful woman who races cars well deserves a lot of attention, or fanfare as you put it. There are a ton of woman that get "fanfare" just for their looks, at least Danica is doing more than that.

Apparently, your definiton of "over-rated" is vastly different than mine. I'll leave it at that.

Pretty ugly, that's an oxymoron. Original copy, that's an oxymoron. You can be better than a lot of people at something and you can still be over rated.

 

[IsmokeGT]

usually a factual thing.

You are good at oxymorons. Usually factual...

I applaud Danica for what she has done.

And so is everyone you think is over-rating her. Get it?

What about Amilia Earhart, she was just a woman that did stuff men had already done. Why is she so famous?

@dave- over-rated is a subjective term, as Ardius already said. Good effort though. Besides, we aren't talking about people in general, we are talking about Professionals.

 

[Ardius]

And so is everyone you think is over-rating her. Get it?

.

So now you claim to know everyone's opinion? I mean really?

Are you so objective on all things? Because this argument appears to be more a subjective vs. objective approach, yes a definition can have different meanings, so yes, usually the definition of oxymoron for most people is to do with factual statements.

 

[Earth]

Danica Patrick...I'm not sure how good she really is, her team is the 3rd best team in the IRL right now and none of her teammates are doing much of anything themselves.

Many drivers have failed in the transition to NASCAR so if Danica fails I dont think it says much about her skill as an openwheel driver.

I didn't say they didn't, but tbh, I'm sure the numbers aren't matching Le Mans which is stating the obvious when you look at the size & room between the 2.

Either way, my point was merely that seats don't account for the actual number of attendees.

Ovals have plenty of people in the infield as well.

Indianapolis has 250,000 permanent seats, but I have seen estimates of 100-150,000 people being in the infield as well. The infield is pretty big, it even has a golf course built inside it. Daytona's infield even has a manmade lake inside of it that was used to build the banking.

Nothing can touch oval racing attendance. You can add those in the infield of roadcourses but there are thousands in the infield of almost every oval. The ring and lemans may come close but Indy will humble both every time

 

[IsmokeGT]

So now you claim to know everyone's opinion? I mean really?

Nope, you don't get it! I used your statement of how activist for woman in motorsports are over-rating her...

Saying a woman is over-rated for being a pioneer is ludicrous.

 

[Ardius]

Hmm, not sure about "pioneer" but in any case, that doesn't excuse her of any faults (which is what over-rating is about, talking someone up, making them out to be better than they really are and generally overlooking mistakes and faults).

Some people rate Danica so high they wonder why she hasn't got an F1 seat yet, best thing since sliced bread and all that. Make up all kinds of excuses for her lack of wins and so on.

Do you honestly believe its ludicrous to think this is over-rating her? To return to my other examples, some think Schumacher is god, that he built the cars he drove and that he can do no wrong. Senna too has gained a legendary status which more often than not overlooks his dark side, to the point that his various cheats are far less mentioned than Schumachers.

 

[eSZee]

don't argue with him, it's pointless...

 

[TouringDevotee]

Why would truth (fact) be necessary for an oxymoron?

Let us all just act naturally, almost exactly as a dove feathered raven, and make no more peaceful war with one another, for none of us is a damned saint, nor an honorable villain.

I think we can move on to double entendres now.

 

[IsmokeGT]

Some people rate Danica so high they wonder why she hasn't got an F1 seat yet, best thing since sliced bread and all that. Make up all kinds of excuses for her lack of wins and so on.

I didn't say that, nor have I heard much of what you say "people" have said about her. All I've heard lately is people expecting her NOT to do well in NASCAR (go figure).

don't argue with him, it's pointless...

Good point!