Ovals VS Road Courses

[Seismica]

They'll blame the cars, the AI, the car setup, the controller...The shift animations distracting them, and on and on. You get the point.

Before i've even played the game i know the x button on the Sixaxis will not be suitable for NASCAR if they keep the throttle distribution uneven. Though i'm of the other type, who appreciates how hard NASCAR is, so thats fine . Uneven throttle makes all parts of a racing game harder in my opinion.

 

[Nattefrost]

You guys are already stereotyping before any of it happened. This has quickly turned from a "Nascar is stupid" into a "anyone who doesn't like Nascar sucks" thread. Not sure which is one is worse.

 

[Seismica]

You guys are already stereotyping before any of it happened. This has quickly turned into a "Nascar is stupid" into a "anyone who doesn't like Nascar sucks" thread. Not sure which is one is worse.

👍 +1

With my limited knowledge of NASCAR i look at this thread and just think "What is going on..." What is all the fuss about? If someone says F1 sucked with reasons i would just accept their opinion. If someone says NASCAR sucks with reasons someone would jump up and say their opinion is wrong

 

[Earth]

Well obviously if you have never raced a track you might have issues at first. But Ovals are still infinitely easier to learn.

Easy to learn, quite difficult to master or be good or the best at as Juan Montoya, Jacques Villeneuve (who somehow managed to find the Talladega wall) Dario Franchitti and a whole host of drivers will tell you

I dont think people understand just how mean sprint cup stock cars are. They dont understand how you can spin the tires at 150mph (as confirmed by Mark Martin) and how bad they handle. When Montoya was first testing stock cars he complained about how loose his car was, Rusty Wallace jumped in the car and said it was way tight! Montoya nad Ambrose, the first thing they mention about the sprint cup cars is how much they move around. If PD models the cars right, then some peeps are in for a unpleasent surprise.

Indycar oval racing is tough as well but not as tough, but whens the last time you've seen a driver park a car because he couldn't control it? That happens in the Indcar series on ovals.

Its a crazy experience putting in what you think should be a pole lap in an online NASCAR 2003 oval race, then pole turns out to be .5 faster then you which is subtantial considering the lap time is only 30 seconds and you end up qualifying 12th or something.

Scott Speed was very vocal about how easy it was for him to find the limit on an oval in a stock car yet he spent every race in 2009 cruising around in positions 30-43 where far inferior cars and teams to his own were. He ended up finishing 36th in points.

I had the opportunity to introduce a GTP member to NASCAR 2003 several months back. He cleaned up the NTSC servers on the road tracks like Suzuka, yet after many crashes etc it took him maybe 3 weeks to fiinally pick up his first win in an online NASCAR 2003 race at Talladega. I dont think his story is too unique, I think anyone without previous NASCAR 2003 experience will find it nearly impossible to win a pole let alone a race for the first several weeks. Keep in mind these online races used fixed setups so its all down to the driver.

"... you come here and you think you are the greatest and best ever, people can prove you wrong very quickly." - Sebastian Vettel on NASCAR

I think anyone who doubts the difficulty of oval racing needs to race NASCAR 2003 online and eat some humble pie. I would like to see them try Bristol. Once they've been lapped in 5 minutes or less and after they've pancaked the side of their car they'll either gain respect for this type of racing or the excuses will come in blaming the cars or track. A bit later in thbe race their tires are gone but everyone else seems to have fresh tires. How did htey use up all their tires? Of course they dont realize how stock cars hog up tires unlike any other racing series in the world yet other drivers were faster then them but yet somehow managed to save their tires at the same time? Alot more to oval racing then they thought!

Where are the rumble strips? This is rediculous having to race up right to a concrete wall evey turn every 7 seconds. This car handles like garbage. I can barely even put the power down without spinning the tires. I'm out of here to race real race cars which handle infinitley better.

There's nothing "bad about an oval" it's more a matter of personal taste. Racing on an oval involves a completely different skillset to racing on a road-track. It's like comparing apples and oranges. There's nothing wrong with apples it's just that some people don't like them.

Your analogy works but it doesnt tell the whole story.

Why do they not like apples? I know I dont like mustard becase of a bad experience when I was just 7 years old. If I tried mustard again today, would I like it? Maybe. The thing is oval racing has been badly represented in most games. EA Sports' Arcade NASCAR games are the equivelant to burning the meal of oval racing. Of course when alot of people try it they wont like it.

Other times food may require an acquired taste that comes over time. Oval racing is not as flashy or glamorous as other motorsports yet over time one can come to see the draw behind oval racing.

However, some may never accept it and will continue to absolutely dread driving any track that does not have at least one right hand turn.

Road and oval racing may indeed be compared to apples and oranges, yet I think the comparision is closer then that. I think they should be compared to chicken.

Some just have to have their chicken fried, while others like it baked. Some like it fried or baked, while others cannot stand one or the other. Some people pitch hissy fits over differences like fried or baked, or whether their chicken sandwich is breaded or not. Of course to me these differences are very minute and I personally can enjoy the positives both offer, yet some cannot. Personally I dislike this trait in people, pickyn ess I think is the word for it. When it comes to race course selection some are very picky

If someone says NASCAR sucks with reasons someone would jump up and say their opinion is wrong

The thing is, I'm still waiting for someone to give a reason why NASCAR sucks. In this thread alone there ahbas probably been at least 12 NASCAR or oval racing sucks posts with no reasoning behind it outside of hte random overly used its just going in circles or its easy.

 

[subsonic]

👍 +1

With my limited knowledge of NASCAR i look at this thread and just think "What is going on..." What is all the fuss about? If someone says F1 sucked with reasons i would just accept their opinion. If someone says NASCAR sucks with reasons someone would jump up and say their opinion is wrong

That`s is the question, everybody can say Nascar sucks, but we need a why.
You must know how Nascar works before to say it sucks.
I`m from Spain (Nascar is not usual here) but since i watched, and played Nascar Racing 4 (Papyrus) y saw taht running in ovals it`s very hard, more than F1 (my opinion).
You can say Nascar sucks, but please, dont tell us "ovals are boring", in F1 the cars run alones (a lot of distance between them) and these is not racing, it`s "walking", cuz anybody has to be worried to be passed for another driver, the distance between 1st and 2nd in F1 is 20 seconds, is these racing?

 

[EamerRed]

Must say oval racing clearly isn't easy or as simple as some people make out, but let's face it, you need to be a much more skilled driver on a race track than on an oval. And fwiw, I'm not keen on oval racing, I do find it boring, as there's not much of a challenge imo. On some courses, 4 identical turns, over and over again, as opposed to a 20-turn circuit which you have to master. I know which I'd prefer. I know you get different kinds of ovals but either way there's not much really heavy braking and overtaking isn't the same concept as overtaking on a race track.

 

[Spagetti69]

I think both are good.

Do I get a banana!!!!!

 

[IsmokeGT]

Must say oval racing clearly isn't easy or as simple as some people make out, but let's face it, you need to be a much more skilled driver on a race track than on an oval. And fwiw, I'm not keen on oval racing, I do find it boring, as there's not much of a challenge imo.

The challenge is not messing up any of those 4 corners, and being door to door for lap after lap, as opposed to running TT and making a pass every half hour like many road courses.

I know you get different kinds of ovals but either way there's not much really heavy braking and overtaking isn't the same concept as overtaking on a race track.

With all due respect, this couldn't be further from the truth. Many ovals wear the brakes out, and many ovals have passing lanes on the top or bottom, far superior to watch over typical dive bomb passes done on road courses.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Must say oval racing clearly isn't easy or as simple as some people make out, but let's face it, you need to be a much more skilled driver on a race track than on an oval. And fwiw, I'm not keen on oval racing, I do find it boring, as there's not much of a challenge imo. On some courses, 4 identical turns, over and over again, as opposed to a 20-turn circuit which you have to master. I know which I'd prefer. I know you get different kinds of ovals but either way there's not much really heavy braking and overtaking isn't the same concept as overtaking on a race track.

It's the same for everybody on track, how do you find an advantage when you only have 4 corners to get around? I think oval non-believers will struggle with that one.

.. and, the corners, they are not identical.

 

[Seismica]

That`s is the question, everybody can say Nascar sucks, but we need a why.
You must know how Nascar works before to say it sucks.
I`m from Spain (Nascar is not usual here) but since i watched, and played Nascar Racing 4 (Papyrus) y saw taht running in ovals it`s very hard, more than F1 (my opinion).
You can say Nascar sucks, but please, dont tell us "ovals are boring", in F1 the cars run alones (a lot of distance between them) and these is not racing, it`s "walking", cuz anybody has to be worried to be passed for another driver, the distance between 1st and 2nd in F1 is 20 seconds, is these racing?

Aye but I didn't say NASCAR sucks, i just said its weird how if someone voices their opinion people tell them they are wrong which is a bit arrogant for anyone really. Generally, if i'm not into something i'm indifferent towards it, and thats how i feel about NASCAR.

My knowledge of NASCAR is almost irrelevant in the argument of Road courses versus Ovals in GT5. The general consensus is we should have around 3-5 ovals to represent the different types, and many more road courses which tend to be unique in their layout.

 

[Ardius]

That`s is the question, everybody can say Nascar sucks, but we need a why.
You must know how Nascar works before to say it sucks.
I`m from Spain (Nascar is not usual here) but since i watched, and played Nascar Racing 4 (Papyrus) y saw taht running in ovals it`s very hard, more than F1 (my opinion).
You can say Nascar sucks, but please, dont tell us "ovals are boring", in F1 the cars run alones (a lot of distance between them) and these is not racing, it`s "walking", cuz anybody has to be worried to be passed for another driver, the distance between 1st and 2nd in F1 is 20 seconds, is these racing?

You don't have to see your opponent in order to race him, rallying is racing, endurance is racing.
This obsession with overtaking and battling overlooks the many other interesting aspects of racing and strategy. A race can be intense even if the cars are no where near each other.

I would say that driving an F1 car is easier if you're not going flat out (but fast enough that the brakes, tyres and aero is working) than driving a NASCAR. But its debatable whether one is harder than the other when you are going for ultimate speed, I'd say that F1 is harder through a combination of intense G-forces, extremely quick speeds through relatively short corners and a reliance on sixth-sense reactions to track conditions and car performance. I know NASCAR has similar challenges but I think the focus on precision and speed through very short corners is a far more difficult challenge to pull off consistently without ever crashing, even with all that aero and power (especially so in fact).

 

[EamerRed]

The challenge is not messing up any of those 4 corners, and being door to door for lap after lap, as opposed to running TT and making a pass every half hour like many road courses.

But F1 is more of a challenge, not messing up any of those 20 corners lap-to-lap, which is harder imo.

With all due respect, this couldn't be further from the truth. Many ovals wear the brakes out, and many ovals have passing lanes on the top or bottom, far superior to watch over typical dive bomb passes done on road courses.

I didn't mean that. I meant heavy braking down to low speeds in order to outbreak your opponent into the corner.

It's the same for everybody on track, how do you find an advantage when you only have 4 corners to get around? I think oval non-believers will struggle with that one.

.. and, the corners, they are not identical.

I said on some tracks they're identical, if you read closely. And I'm not attacking oval racing here, I'm just stating why I don't find it entertaining. Overtakes happen so often that there's no way in NASCAR that you can have a truly great piece of driving or moment, compared to F1.

 

[Joey D]

That`s is the question, everybody can say Nascar sucks, but we need a why.

My why is that I find NASCAR extremely boring and uninteresting to watch. I think that's the why for a lot of people.

 

[McLaren]

I said on some tracks they're identical, if you read closely. And I'm not attacking oval racing here, I'm just stating why I don't find it entertaining. Overtakes happen so often that there's no way in NASCAR that you can have a truly great piece of driving or moment, compared to F1.

Have you ever seen the end of a good NASCAR race? The last 10 laps are usually more exciting & contain more action than a near-full F1 race.

Every time I catch F1, everybody is always just a few seconds ahead of each other. I see no brilliant driving, just the Top 3-4 trying to play catch up. Watching 2-3 drivers in Nascar though drafting each other & trading some paint in the final moments is quite entertaining, esp. for the championships.

In fact, F1 has started to become the dullest motorsport for me. I see more action in FIA, DTM, & BTCC. TBQH, F1 is becoming more like a soap than a racing series with all the off-the-track news that comes out.

 

[LSX]

Overtakes happen so often that there's no way in NASCAR that you can have a truly great piece of driving or moment, compared to F1.

What oval racing have you been watching?

Seriously.

 

[Earth]

Must say oval racing clearly isn't easy or as simple as some people make out, but let's face it, you need to be a much more skilled driver on a race track than on an oval.

What do you mean by skill? Alot of people say rally drivers are the most skilled, but would they succeed in F1, NASCAR, sportscars, motorcycles, or even the NHRA? Roadcourses, ovals, rally etc all require something different from a driver.

I'm not keen on oval racing, I do find it boring, as there's not much of a challenge imo. On some courses, 4 identical turns, over and over again, as opposed to a 20-turn circuit which you have to master. I know which I'd prefer.

On most road courses most drivers, even mediocre drivers once they've settled in dont have much of a problem running within .1 or .2 of their average lap even if the lap is 120 seconds or more.

However on an oval with lap times ranging from 15-30 seconds it can be just as difficult to lap within .1 to .2 of a second of your average lap.

Why? Speeds on ovals are much higher then a road course so any little mistake in the corner is magnified down the long straights. On road courses you make up more time going faster through the fast bits then faster through the slower bits. This is magnified on an oval as every 'bit' is extremely fast.

I know you get different kinds of ovals but either way there's not much really heavy braking and overtaking isn't the same concept as overtaking on a race track.

How is overtaking on an oval not the same concept as overtaking on a road course? It's all the same as its all about racing line and momentum.

As for heavy braking, no track in the world is tougher on brakes then the oval in Martinsville Virginia

You don't have to see your opponent in order to race him, rallying is racing, endurance is racing.
This obsession with overtaking and battling overlooks the many other interesting aspects of racing and strategy. A race can be intense even if the cars are no where near each other.

Yes, there is more to racing then overtaking. As you mentioned there is strategy. However overtaking should not be downplayed as there is nothing more exciting in motorsport. All F1 has to do to improve overtaking is add some weight to the cars to increase the stupid short stopping distances and stop penalizing the drivers for contact which is almost always incidental.

Well, I'll lay down what makes ovals difficult and anything but boring, at least to me.

- high speeds. At your average roadcourse there may be one turn taken at over 140mph whereas in alot of ovals every turn is taken in speeds between 160 - 200+ mph. This makes the car much more sensitive and on edge. Also at these speeds mistakes are magnified

I know of a raod racer who while attempting to qualify for Indy tried to correct a drift as he would on a roadcourse by quickly countersteering. Because of the higher speeds at Indy the car was much more sensitive so he quickly lost control and slammed head on into the wall, ending his life. An extreme example but it shows just how different road racing is from high speed oval racing.

- traffic. because of factors like short lap times, drafting, multiple grooves and close lap times you will almost always have to deal with cars around you where as on a roadcourse cars tend to get strung out because of circuit length, lack of drafting and single groove courses with no real passing opportunities.

 

[BolgOfThe North]

Ypu are wrong, i`m from Spain and i like ovals, Nascar and IRL

Thats why I said pretty much only Americans, of course there will be the odd exceptions.

 

[Micdog49]

Thats why I said pretty much only Americans, of course there will be the odd exceptions.

You're right. The majority of people who want NASCAR so very much are Americans. And there are people here who cannot seem to accept that their beloved sport is considered boring in other places that aren't the U S of A.

You ask why does it suck? Because people consider cars going around and around in circles is boring.

I'm not personally saying that it is easy, nor should anyone here.
I have seen circuit racers go to NASCAR and not be as competitive.
Take Marcus Ambrose. 2 time Australian V8 supercar champion. Goes to NASCAR and sucks.

Then I watched a road course race in the wet (or whatever you call it over there) and he would've won by miles if he hadn't speeded in pit lane. Obviously highlighting that, if you're brought up with something, it is likely that you're going to be better at it than something that you are not. Hence why you would have more fun. And most of the people who will buy GT, were not brought up with NASCAR

 

[toyota_gt1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5VF5pcy9EQ

How can anyone say that is boring?

 

[Joey D]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5VF5pcy9EQ

How can anyone say that is boring?

To me it is. Why can't NASCAR fans just accept that a lot of people find the motorsport they like boring?

 

[Earth]

You're right. The majority of people who want NASCAR so very much are Americans. And there are people here who cannot seem to accept that their beloved sport is considered boring in other places that aren't the U S of A.

You ask why does it suck? Because people consider cars going around and around in circles is boring.

I'm not personally saying that it is easy, nor should anyone here.
I have seen circuit racers go to NASCAR and not be as competitive.
Take Marcus Ambrose. 2 time Australian V8 supercar champion. Goes to NASCAR and sucks.

Then I watched a road course race in the wet (or whatever you call it over there) and he would've won by miles if he hadn't speeded in pit lane. Obviously highlighting that, if you're brought up with something, it is likely that you're going to be better at it than something that you are not. Hence why you would have more fun. And most of the people who will buy GT, were not brought up with NASCAR

First off, Marcos Ambrose doesnt suck in NASCAR. He did quite well for the team he is on and would have been rookie of the year if he qualified.

Second off, alot of motorsports are considered boring by alot of people, F1 included. I know of many Americans who think NASCAR sucks and is boring, I know of many Europeans etc who think F1 sucks and is boring.

Racing is racing. We are not comparing soccer and the NFL.

The difference is NASCAR is like a book with an old, extremely plain looking cover that alot of people pass on or give very little thought to but inside the book is extremely deep, entertaining, and exciting. Other motorsports have flashy covers and attract many more by that alone but inside the book can be rather boring.

Third, you say its just around and around in a circle. First, Indy, Daytona, Bristol, these are anything but a circle. Second, what exactly is this besides a circle with a few chicanes sprinkled in on the straights?

Fourth, these "circles" produce high speeds and the closest racing in the world.

Fifth, theres more oval fans worldwide then your willing to admit, and this will only grow larger with GT5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5VF5pcy9EQ

How can anyone say that is boring?

That's easy

- low technology cars
- no right hand turns
- no celebrities in the pits
- no Ferraris
- hardly any braking

toyota gt1, some people are just very twisted by years of watching bad racing they wouldn't know a good race if it hit them in the face.

 

[IsmokeGT]

I think it is safe to say PD knows what they are doing by putting NASCAR, thus ovals, in GT5. As NASCAR grows, so will his game. Plus, he always mentioned the way NASCAR made him feel, and that's a completely subjective reason to include NASCAR/ovals. Now that has to be kind of credible on a site dedicated to the man's game.

 

[toyota_gt1]

First off, Marcos Ambrose doesnt suck in NASCAR. He did quite well for the team he is on and would have been rookie of the year if he qualified.

Second off, alot of motorsports are considered boring by alot of people, F1 included. I know of many Americans who think NASCAR sucks and is boring, I know of many Europeans etc who think F1 sucks and is boring.

Racing is racing. We are not comparing soccer and the NFL.

The difference is NASCAR is like a book with an old, extremely plain looking cover that alot of people pass on or give very little thought to but inside the book is extremely deep, entertaining, and exciting. Other motorsports have flashy covers and attract many more by that alone but inside the book can be rather boring.

Third, you say its just around and around in a circle. First, Indy, Daytona, Bristol, these are anything but a circle. Second, what exactly is this besides a circle with a few chicanes sprinkled in on the straights?

Fourth, these "circles" produce high speeds and the closest racing in the world.

Fifth, theres more oval fans worldwide then your willing to admit, and this will only grow larger with GT5



That's easy

- low technology cars
- no right hand turns
- no celebrities in the pits
- no Ferraris
- hardly any braking

toyota gt1, some people are just very twisted by years of watching bad racing they wouldn't know a good race if it hit them in the face.

True. I think I should back off and just look at what people are saying here and try to understand it.

 

[Pitracer100]

That's easy

- low technology cars
- no right hand turns
- no celebrities in the pits
- no Ferraris
- hardly any braking

toyota gt1, some people are just very twisted by years of watching bad racing they wouldn't know a good race if it hit them in the face.

You stole the words right from my thoughts.The only celebrities are country music artist who'll give the winner a "gitar" for display. I personally know people who think NASCAR is the most competitive motorsport in the world and I have to break it down to them it's just cars with american sedan chassis with lots of stickers and a 750 HP engine going around a 4-turn oval 250 to 400 times.
Seriously entertaining...
Then I was amazed to how see how many zeros their paychecks had.

 

[SKNO1]

i mentioned pocono because i think it would bring variety to they non oval oval courses. pocono has always been my fav for nascar games next to bristol. ALL RACING IS BORING UNLESS YOU'RE BEHIND THE WHEEL.

 

[djanikowski]

You stole the words right from my thoughts.The only celebrities are country music artist who'll give the winner a "gitar" for display. I personally know people who think NASCAR is the most competitive motorsport in the world and I have to break it down to them it's just cars with american sedan chassis with lots of stickers and a 750 HP engine going around a 4-turn oval 250 to 400 times.
Seriously entertaining...
Then I was amazed to how see how many zeros their paychecks had.

Sedan Chassis?

How is a pushrod engine with 850HP at 7,800 RPM low tech?

 

[Exorcet]

You stole the words right from my thoughts.The only celebrities are country music artist who'll give the winner a "gitar" for display. I personally know people who think NASCAR is the most competitive motorsport in the world and I have to break it down to them it's just cars with american sedan chassis with lots of stickers and a 750 HP engine going around a 4-turn oval 250 to 400 times.
Seriously entertaining...
Then I was amazed to how see how many zeros their paychecks had.

I honestly don't know why one would watch racing for celebrities. I honestly know less about some of the drivers in sports car/F1 racing than some of my friends who watch it less than me. I watch for the excitment, the sport and the competition.

Also there is a disconnect between being "750 HP engine going around a 4-turn oval 250 to 400 times" and not being competitive.

 

[Northstar]

To me it is. Why can't NASCAR fans just accept that a lot of people find the motorsport they like boring?

You can find basically anything boring or exciting, it just depends on if you want it to be or not. It's basically the whole, "you can find beauty in anything if you have an open mind" thing.

I will admit that previous to 2003 I thought it was boring like everyone else. Than I got stuck watching the Bud Shootout since no other channels would come in and after that I was hooked. This is also what kind of happened with NHRA, I couldn't stand it for the longest time. However in 2008 I got invited to go to the Brainerd race and went and the same thing basically happened.

 

[djanikowski]

You can find basically anything boring or exciting, it just depends on if you want it to be or not. It's basically the whole, "you can find beauty in anything if you have an open mind" thing.

I will admit that previous to 2003 I thought it was boring like everyone else. Than I got stuck watching the Bud Shootout since no other channels would come in and after that I was hooked. This is also what kind of happened with NHRA, I couldn't stand it for the longest time. However in 2008 I got invited to go to the Brainerd race and went and the same thing basically happened.

Same here, my dad always watched NHRA and went to Brainerd almost every year in the 90's, and I never understood why he liked it so much until I went to a race in Kansas, and well

 

[LSX]

You're right. The majority of people who want NASCAR so very much are Americans. And there are people here who cannot seem to accept that their beloved sport is considered boring in other places that aren't the U S of A.

ummm...Riiiggghhttt...

Not Nascar, but might as well be.