Oversteer or Underseer - What do you Prefer?

[Scaff]

Scaff, I've also read many books about it, and they all said the same thing "It's one or the other" to sum it up. Skip Barber talks about "feeling" neutral (feeling, and being are different things), but it really is not neutral. Even if all 4 wheels have equal slip angle, doesn't mean the car is "perfect". If the car was perfect, it wouldn't be drifting, now would it? You know it, I know it, the whole world knows it.

Drop it.

I have no wish to start an argument on this subject, but I do hold an opinion on this that differs from yours, and as such I believe I should have the opportunity to express it.

Skip Barber does not talk of a car 'feeling' neutral, but of a neutral car. 'Going Faster' the handbook of the Skip Barber race school has a section entitled ' Neutral Yields the Best Grip' (page 61), discussing how a car that is neutral in balance is neither in a state of under or oversteer will offer the best possiable grip.

or 'Speed secrets' by Ross Bentley (p48) where Neutral balance is described as the ideal a driver is striving for when adjusting the handling of the car.

The Porsche Driving book and Roadcraft (the British Police driving handbook) all contain similar sections, so I would say a number of others also disagree with you.

I fully respect your opinion on this, but I do not have to agree with you on it. I did not at any point state that a neutral balance could be maintained in all circumstances, but neither can under or oversteer. I was simply stating that a car can also be neutral, in my and many others opinion.

In closing I also have to say that i find this

You know it, I know it, the whole world knows it.

Drop it

to be un-needed. I simply disagreed with you. Your tone and similar manner when others disagree with you, as displayed in other threads does you no favours and will quickly earn you the attention of the mods.

Regards

Scaff

 

[identti]

For racing probably a neutral balance. For fun, oversteer every time, but not too out of control. Supposedly a slighlty understeery car will always be faster than a oversteering car, but wheres the fun in that.

 

[Gabkicks]

well it depends on the car. its whatever helps you corner faster and put the power down fastest while not killing off tires.

 

[-Cheezman-]

@Scaff, it's not that I disagree with you on your opinion.. it's just that I know it is not right. Most cases you are right, but in this case, I know that you need a correction.

There is no perfect point between under steering and over steering, that's what I'm trying to say. There are a few reason why. First of which, is driver preference, some drivers prefer something different than others, because of this, one may say it over steers a little more than some one who says they like it, and feel as though it is perfect for them, another may say it under steers too much for them. Another reason is, because if you call a car "perfect handling", then it's implying that that car can handle perfect in all circumstances, which is impossible, I can't have a street car, bring it on to a rally circuit and expect it to drive the same.

At points a car can have amazing grip and handling, but "perfect" or "neutral" can not be implyed... especially since at one moment you can have over steer, and another under steer (like you said)...

Get what I mean now?

Oh and by the way, you are the one who started the disagreement, you replied to my post.. so don't say the mods will take notice to me.

 

[red70mach1]

Oversteer. I like the dramatic effect of opposite lock on the steering wheel.

 

[ImprezaAddict]

Oversteer because it still lets the car turn, but not in really big amounts.
The advantage is obvious and as you see most say oversteer

 

[Gabkicks]

hotlap/qualify setups for racecars usually understeer less(oversteer more) than the race setup. just speaking about rwd cars, they are usually set up to for mild understeer to help balance out the tire wear.

 

[Scaff]

@Scaff, it's not that I disagree with you on your opinion.. it's just that I know it is not right. Most cases you are right, but in this case, I know that you need a correction.

There is no perfect point between under steering and over steering, that's what I'm trying to say. There are a few reason why. First of which, is driver preference, some drivers prefer something different than others, because of this, one may say it over steers a little more than some one who says they like it, and feel as though it is perfect for them, another may say it under steers too much for them. Another reason is, because if you call a car "perfect handling", then it's implying that that car can handle perfect in all circumstances, which is impossible, I can't have a street car, bring it on to a rally circuit and expect it to drive the same.

At points a car can have amazing grip and handling, but "perfect" or "neutral" can not be implyed... especially since at one moment you can have over steer, and another under steer (like you said)...

Get what I mean now?

Oh and by the way, you are the one who started the disagreement, you replied to my post.. so don't say the mods will take notice to me.

My point about the mods in not in regard to us disagreing about this point, rather with your tone and attitude towards it. Its aggressive, superior and not needed.

So a couple of points on this subject, at no stage of this have I said a car can have 'perfect' handling or be neutral at all times, those are your words not mine.

I am simply stating that a car can have a neutral balance, that a car can be in a state during cornering at which the slip angles of all the tyres are the same, and that this can occur either below or above the limit of grip.

You see the true definition of under and over steer are states that are not only exibited when grip have been lost, but a relationship between the front and rear tyres slip angles. When the slip angles are the same the car is in a state of neutral balance. These are not my words or descriptions, but rather those of the instructors at the Skip Barber racing school.

You say that no 'perfect' balance point exists between under and over steer, I (and many others and I have given you the exact references) disagree with that statement. How else would you describe a car that has equal slip angles front and rear?

You also state that this is driver preference, which has nothing to do with this at all. A drivers preference between a car that handles in a certain way is just that preference. It has nothing to do with what a car is capable of doing, just what the driver would like it to do and may try and induce.

If you are trying to say that a car can never be in a neutral state then please explain how a car can undergo a transition from understeer to oversteer (a common transition in most rear wheel drive road cars upon reaching the limit) without passing through a neutral point?

You say that I need a correction, yet you offer nothing but your opinion (which I have said you are perfectly entitled to - just don't expect me to agree with it), while I have given two exact sources, down to the page number, that disagree with exactly what you have said.

Again to illustrate my point, this is from Chapter 4 of Going Faster (the Skip Barber handbook), a section entitled Redefining Oversteer, Understeer and Neutral (pages 58 to 61) and a paragraph titled Cornering balance is Fluid.

A frequent mistake is to use one of these terms to sum up a car's cornering behavior. Pronouncments like "Porsches oversteer" or "Front wheel drive cars understeer" or mid-engine cars are neutral" are too generalized. The same car can exhibit understeer, oversteer, and neutrality under different conditions, often in the time it takes to drive through one corner. The process is a fliud one where you get a feeling for the right vehicle attitude and manipulate the controls of the car to keep cornering with just the right amount of yaw and slip.

or the following from the previous paragraph, Neutral Yields the Best Grip

Remember, though, that the car is neutral but it still has some yaw. Many drivers mistakenly think that a neutral car simply tracks around the corner with zero yaw. It doesn't. Neutral simply means that the front and rear slip angles are matched, hopefully in the range where the tyres deliver the most traction

Two directly quoted pieces (that can be verified) from one of the most respected drivers/instructors in the world, both of which clearly describe a car as being capable of not just being neutral, but it being a state at which a car can and idealy should be held at during cornering.

You state that you 'know I am not right', yet I'm able to offer the above (and much more in the same line) that clearly shows a car can be in a neutral state, but (as I have always said) that this state is fluid and difficult to achieve and maintain.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Small_Fryz]

I prefer a bit of oversteer, but nothing that requires corrections. However its always a dream to drive a nicely balanced car that can peferm wonderful 4 wheel drifts right at the limit. For cars that understeer, you just have to change your driving to suit it, it normally means you are turning in to fast and carrying too much speed.

 

[-Cheezman-]

@Scaff I read different, but I guess because you do have more sources you are right... or you could be wrong. Any corrections I will accept, but it is weird I got something different from what you got.

Post the titles of the books and soruces you were quoting from, because I must check them out now.

 

[Mad Murphy NZ]

I prefer my cars with neutral handling, my car corners like it's on rails but I can still flick the back out should I feel the urge.

 

[niky]

I'm pretty late to this thread, aren't I?

As SavageEvil and others have said, and Scaff (as usual) has explained so well, slight or mild understeer is always better for track work. Push harder and all you do is miss the apex. With oversteer, you're tail out and fighting the car for control. Not the kind of thing you want on track.

And, as Scaff has pointed out, everything oversteers, understeers and neutral steers in different situations. FRs will oversteer with a bit of lock and throttle, Porsches will oversteer with some lift-off, FFs will oversteer in trail-braking.

FRs will understeer with too much entry speed (heck, everything does), FFs and AWDs understeer under power, as do.. strangely... Porsches (in some cases... I've heard that once it starts going, you should actually keep your foot in).

On track and at speed, I prefer mild understeer, but I'll take neutral-steer if it's possibe.

 

[Scaff]

@Scaff I read different, but I guess because you do have more sources you are right... or you could be wrong. Any corrections I will accept, but it is weird I got something different from what you got.

Post the titles of the books and soruces you were quoting from, because I must check them out now.

The main reference sources I use are

Going Faster - Mastering the art of race driving
ISBN 0-8376-0226-2
This book realy is the benchmark for racing texts, its the product of not one author but of every instructor at the Skip Barber racing school.

Speed Secrets
ISBN 0-7603-0518-8
A great introdutory text, not as in depth as Going Faster, but a damn fine start point.

The other two books I use are a lot harder to get hold of (in the US at least)

The first is
The Porsche Driving book
ISBN 0-9513737-0-6
Published by Porsche GB it mainly focuses on performance road driving techniques. Now out of print it is a great book, but hard to get hold of.

and

Roadcraft
ISBN 0-11340858-7
Easily avaliable in the UK, this is the driving handbook used by the UK Police and covers mainly on-road driving. What quite syurprises many people is that it does cover performance driving techniques and is an invaluable aid to any serious driver.

These four are the main texts that I use, withe Going Faster being my favorite racing text of all time (anyone who has a copy will know why), and in my above posts I have quoted page numbers.

I would be interested to know which sources has stated that a neutral balance in a car is not possiable, as every text I have come across (in over two decades of studying this and a decade in the motor industry as a trainer) has stated neutral balance is possiable.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Small_Fryz]

understeer in GT4 will make you slower than oversteer. with oversteer you can enter the corner very fast and balance the rear end then exit fast. With understeer you only have to understeer a bit and your whole exit is shot.

 

[Scaff]

understeer in GT4 will make you slower than oversteer. with oversteer you can enter the corner very fast and balance the rear end then exit fast. With understeer you only have to understeer a bit and your whole exit is shot.

Personally I think that depends on the driver and track (remember this is my personal opinion - i.e. what works for me).

For example I would agree on tracks which are tight and twisty or highly technical in nature, but for high speed tracks such as the 'ring I prefer a slight understeer bias as I find it more predictable (again this does also depend on the car).

Tracks with a mixture of high speed and technical sections (such as the full Grand Valley Speedway) I find need a very balanced approach, which is very difficult to get and why I use it as one of my main tuning test tracks.

However the main issue I have with describing a cars behaviour in such broad terms is that a cars balance can and does change on a corner by corner basis, and even during a single corner.

Its more than possiable for a car to understeer on corner entry, be neutral through its radius and then oversteer on exit. The final corner at Grand Valley is a classic example of where this can occur. Its nature draws you in fast which can mean to high an entry speed, while its constant radius section allows a good car to be balanced, but its exit can punish you if you open teh throttle too wide too soon.

Its a great corner for tuning a car for high speeds, however get the car tuned right for this corner (which is arguably the most important corner on the track) and it will rarely be set-up ideally for the two hairpins.

Regards

Scaff

 

[SavageEvil]

Well cars are pretty much impossible to be built "perfect", that is subjective to the drivers technique. I can tell you that every car made for consumption is pretty much dialed to understeer, public health and safety demands it. One reason, understeer keeps the the driver in limited control, since the car won't go into a spin and overwhelm the driver. Look at it if the car had more oversteer bias, front wheels maintain grip, but are no longer influencing the cars directional and rotational movement. Which one would you rather have on track and off track?

Like scaff pointed out, when slip angles on front and rear are equal, that is pretty much as sweet as you can get in cornering, that pretty much depends on how well balanced the car is front to rear, spring rates, damper settings, stabilizers and last but not least how the driver controls throttle. While the car itself is not set to be as neutral as possible, which leads to unpredictability, they give it a bias which for race cars will be understeer, it's a lot less worrysome to deal with. No one wants a neutral car on a race track.

Plain and simple understeer, you can still see the direction that you are goin, and the front wheels can regain their grip with well placed downshift and braking/throttle inputs....Oversteer, well let's just say that it requires even more finely tuned steering inputs, brake/throttle balance. Understeer is a better deal, fishtailing is not fun.

GT4 oversteer/understeer balance is messed up because of the weird tire grip calculations. It's still rather well done, but stock vehicles tires are too arcadey. Use the standard tires, they will give you a better feel, although you will definately have a problem with throttle inputs, as the throttling is hella messed up, it needs a lot of work as the power delivery isn't up to snuff yet, must be the analog sensitivity. But it's terrible no matter what you use DFP or DS2.

 

[Wolfe]

In real life, and most games -- very neutral, but still biased towards oversteer.

In GT4 -- understeer, because countersteer is way, way too sensitive for me with the DS2, making any oversteer dangerous. Luckily, understeer is easy to come by in this game!

And, as Scaff has pointed out, everything oversteers, understeers and neutral steers in different situations. FRs will oversteer with a bit of lock and throttle, Porsches will oversteer with some lift-off, FFs will oversteer in trail-braking.

FRs will understeer with too much entry speed (heck, everything does), FFs and AWDs understeer under power, as do.. strangely... Porsches (in some cases... I've heard that once it starts going, you should actually keep your foot in).

Porsches understeer because of the rear-biased weight distribution. There isn't much weight pressing down on the front wheels, so they'll be more inclined to lose traction under acceleration. As for why you shouldn't let off of the throttle suddenly (when a 911 begins understeering), it's because the weight will shift forward and the heavy tail will swing wide. Lift-off oversteer, in other words.

Understeer -> Panic throttle release -> Extreme oversteer -> Crashed Porsches -> Reputation for dangerous handling.

@The "cars can't be neutral" debate: Obviously, very few cars, if any, can be deemed "completely" neutral. However, that doesn't mean that neutrality isn't a handling trait (a tight-rope walker can never be 100% balanced, but that doesn't mean that they've fallen over either side). Indeed, many good sportscars are very balanced, and though an MR-2 may enjoy oversteering, and a Renault Clio V6 may enjoy understeering, the mid-engined, rear-wheel-drive layout is the probably the best choice. The Porsche Boxster is a very good example of a balanced car.

Oh, and driver preference doesn't even come into it. Cars don't change when drivers are switched -- opinions do.

 

[Small_Fryz]

Well from my experience in GT4, Agressive setups normally have some oversteer, as this is when you can really throw the car around and be super agressive. It is harder to drive at the limit than a neutral or slight understeer setup, but the limit is higher.

At least this is the case with GT4

 

[Perfect Balance]

Understeer is a better deal, fishtailing is not fun.

If you can't keep a car from fishtailing, you shouldn't be driving it fast enough to fishtail in the first place.

And I don't know about the rest of you, but If I'm going too fast into a corner, I would really like the car to just spin out than to drive straight into a wall.

 

[Ermac26]

as long as I can turn, it doesn't matter to me

 

[Wolfe]

I don't know about the rest of you, but If I'm going too fast into a corner, I would really like the car to just spin out than to drive straight into a wall.

Agreed.

 

[niky]

@Wolfe2x7: Yup, I realize that about the Porsches after doing a week's testing on the BTR. Very interesting driving style really, but very counter-intuitive coming from any other car.

-----

That's funny, I prefer to go head first... but that's driving style.

In GT4, I can go whole hog oversteer or drive neutral, but in real life, I tend to slow down first and pick my line through a corner methodically. So while the guy in front of me is busy stabbing on his brakes and struggling to turn in, I'm already lined up for the exit. That's why I prefer a little understeer, as it's easy to balance out, and I don't really have to worry about being gentle on the throttle once I'm done with the corner, as I'm already set in a straight line.

@SavageEvil: traction under acceleration has always been a conundrum for me... but I've found things a little easier since I started using the right stick instead of buttons. On the DFP, I've never been comfortable with the accelerator and brake pedals, as there's too little resistance and feedback.

 

[Alfaholic]

I choose over steer, there is no 0/0 of over steer or under steer, you MUST have one or the other

I disagree. It is not hard to come across text describing a car with "neutral" handling i.e. when the limit of grip is reached both front and rear tend to slide a similar amount. I have experienced this in a car. It happens. It's sliding, but it's not understeering or oversteering. Neither the front nor the rear had more momentum that needed correcting. The car was just bodily sliding outwards from the centre of the turn.

under steer requires more use of the brakes and slows you down.... or something like that.. lol.

Maybe half true in a front wheel drive car, but even then not all the time. Some front wheel drive cars understeer on a trailing throttle (an old Ford Fiesta, for instance) and this can be neutralized by applying throttle, i.e. accelerating, in moderation.

Some rear wheel drive cars also allow understeer to be corrected by applying throttle and switching the car to either a neutral or oversteer balance

Bottom line is that braking halfway round a corner is almost universally considered A BAD IDEA and it will often either send you backwards through a hedge (at least that cured the understeer...) or face first into a hedge because you locked up front wheels that were already short of grip (they were understeering...) Usually the best time to hit the anchors in the middle of a corner is immediately after you realise that the situation is already beyond your control, you're going to have an accident anyway and you may as well scrub off some speed before it happens.

I make an exception for the trail braking and left foot braking techniques applied by some drivers which prove that in moderation braking while cornering can be used to advantage.

 

[Scaff]

And I don't know about the rest of you, but If I'm going too fast into a corner, I would really like the car to just spin out than to drive straight into a wall.

Agreed.

In a game maybe.

In reality, not a chance, for a few of reasons.

1. If you are going to hit something, then do it head-on, its the form of impact cars are designed to best survive. Side impacts almost always result in much higher degrees of injury and more deaths, both in road and race cars.

2. A spin on a track can result in a wheel digging into a curb, rumble strip or gravel trap, which can then flip the car into a roll. Not a situation you want to be in. Again increases the risk of injury massively.

3. Damage to the suspension system and set-up is far more likely in a spin than from running straight on. So if you do recover the car is more likely to be driveable.

4. You have more chance of avoiding an impact if you are still traveling in a direction you can see in, also while braking is not going to be as effective in a straight off situation, its a damn sight more effective that when spinning.

Of course the best thing to do is try and avoid the situation at all.

Regards

Scaff

 

[SavageEvil]

If you can't keep a car from fishtailing, you shouldn't be driving it fast enough to fishtail in the first place.

And I don't know about the rest of you, but If I'm going too fast into a corner, I would really like the car to just spin out than to drive straight into a wall.

Not sure what you are speaking about my friend, but when i said fishtailing, I meant where you attempt to correct oversteer, what happens most of the time, you counter-steer and then you fishtail. Unless when YOU correct oversteer your car comes out of it with not fuss at all. Im not sure the human body is able to fend off 360º attack. How do you brace for the impact, if you are spinning? I'd much rather understeer off a road or into a wall, trust me seeing impending impact you can prepare yourself, spinning, you aren't coherent enough to do anything but curse under your breath.

I understand why you would think that spin outs are better for you, but you've been playing too much GT4. Rarely is a spinout anything like in that game, spins can sometimes end in a snap; your tires bite and you still have rolling momentum and it can send you careening somewhere else, seen it in racing before.

 

[Dimitrov]

Understeer, defnitely.

It forces you to LEARN how to control a car.

 

[Gabkicks]

why does that force you any more than oversteer?

 

[Wolfe]

@Wolfe2x7: Yup, I realize that about the Porsches after doing a week's testing on the BTR. Very interesting driving style really, but very counter-intuitive coming from any other car.

It's what makes a 911 a 911.

In GT4, I can go whole hog oversteer or drive neutral, but in real life, I tend to slow down first and pick my line through a corner methodically. So while the guy in front of me is busy stabbing on his brakes and struggling to turn in, I'm already lined up for the exit.

If I'm reading you right, that's why I prefer a balance towards oversteer (the guy struggling to turn in). I can kick the tail out and tuck in the nose to easily pass someone on the inside, or get myself pointing towards the exit of the corner sooner. The sooner I'm facing the exit of the corner, the sooner I can get on the throttle. The sooner I get on the throttle, the faster I go.

In a game maybe.

In reality, not a chance, for a few of reasons.

1. If you are going to hit something, then do it head-on, its the form of impact cars are designed to best survive. Side impacts almost always result in much higher degrees of injury and more deaths, both in road and race cars.

2. A spin on a track can result in a wheel digging into a curb, rumble strip or gravel trap, which can then flip the car into a roll. Not a situation you want to be in. Again increases the risk of injury massively.

3. Damage to the suspension system and set-up is far more likely in a spin than from running straight on. So if you do recover the car is more likely to be driveable.

4. You have more chance of avoiding an impact if you are still traveling in a direction you can see in, also while braking is not going to be as effective in a straight off situation, its a damn sight more effective that when spinning.

Of course the best thing to do is try and avoid the situation at all.

Regards

Scaff

Of course, all of that is true, but I guess I should have been more clear.

In a racing situation, I would prefer spinning out and ending up on the inside of the exit of a corner, than understeering and plowing off into the grass and into a wall.

Over-corrective spinning and spinning off-course weren't part of my preference -- those are simply things to be avoided altogether.

Come to think of it, comparing spinning out while remaining on-course and understeering off-course is kinda dumb. My mistake.

 

[ozanzac]

I prefer a neutral car, but when it comes to fun factor, oversteer simply can't be beaten.

I've driven a couple of examples of Rex's, and a turbo MR-2 (the MRS's predecessor) through mates of mine.

Basically, a WRX is the kind of car that can make anyone look like a race driver. Very hard to push too far, simply due to the bag loads of grip on offer.

On ashphalt, an understeerer when pushed really hard, but should you know of a windy dirt road, the option of lift off, then power on oversteer is always there.

The MR-2, on the other hand, takes a really skilled driver to get the best out of, and out of the few short fangs I've taken in it, I've found it to be the more exhillerating drive.

I don't now how the MR-2 stacks up against the MRS, but if I had a choice of WRX over MR2, I'd take the MR-2 because I found it far more rewarding and challenging drive when driven hard.

But, I have the feeling that the MRS, is grossly underpowered in comparison to a WRX, and if that does indeed turn out to be the case, I'd probably choose the WRX, which isn't so bad, seeing as the noise of any boxer is simply music to my ears!

Best of luck finding the car that best suits you!

 

[bangkokgt]

Thank you all for the fantastic discussion on oversteer or understeer thus far.

I have owned MRs and FRs primarily and love the adjustability via throttle but also know the dangers of overcooking it and having to catch the tail if I can.

Still, I have always looked at the stats on a WRX STI and love the sound of boxer engines, notwithstanding the debatable looks of the thing.

My decision would be based primarily on whether the STI is a good steer.

I am worried about understeer as I don't like to plough through a corner!

Anyone with any comments on the handling of the STI. Is it a neutral steer, uncontrollable in understeer and verging on sudden oversteer at the limit?

I intend to do a few track days with this and confess to having the occasional hard punt down a winding rural road from time to time (away from traffic and civilisation), hence the question.

Also, keep comments on understeer and oversteer coming! It's educational!

On a somewhat separate note, have had GT4 (only utilising it recently with a Driving Force Ex as I found the DS3 quite unrealistic) for two weeks and am absolutely addicted!

Also, go to www.timesonline.co.uk and look in the driving section. You will see Tiff Needhall up against the UK Gran Turismo Champion and how they stacked up against each other in real life (Brands Hatch) and on the PS2 (Suzuka East). A very interesting article!